Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.

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Berserk

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Psychology is the rational study ("logos") of the mind or soul ("psyche"). Used philosophically (as in John 1), "logos" refers to the rational self-expression of God as opposed to God in His unknowability. In this sense it contrasts with Isaiah 55:7-8:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

So as God incarnate, Jesus came as the rational self-expression of God that humanity could grasp as opposed to the mystery of the incomprehensible God. But prior to the Incarnation, "the Logos" refers to God insofar as He can be known by His gracious acts in history.
 
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APAK

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The Logos of God became Christ. (the Word became flesh)
For some reason Christ remembered being with God before He became flesh. (said he had seen the Father)

/
Do not agree with your remembrance statement at all, as I believe Jesus existed for the first time since his human conception and birth.

And Jesus never said he ever actually saw his Father as in John 1:18

(Joh 1:18) No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made Him known. The Ministry of John

Through his spirit possession by his Father, at least by his birth, the Son began to experience his Father's presence within him, and work with from inside him, and his presence grew over time.

When Thomas wanted to see the Father, Jesus said you see me then you see the Father. Meaning the Son's mind and spirit was in the Father's mind (logos) and spirit acted as his father. The Son became the logos of his Father. The first time the logos of the Father God ever possessed a human being. And the last time according to scripture.

(Joh 14:8) Philip said to him: Lord, show us the Father, and it suffices us.
(Joh 14:9) Jesus said to him: Philip, have I been with you such a long time, and still you do not truly know me? He that has seen me has seen the Father. How do you ask: Show us the Father?
(Joh 14:10) Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not from myself; but the Father abiding in me does His works.
(Joh 14:11) Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the very works' sake.
(Joh 14:12) Truly, truly, I say to you: He that believes in me, the works that I do, shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do, because I go to the Father.
(Joh 14:13) And whatever you shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

I hope this might clear things up a bit.....at least in my way of thinking
 
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St. SteVen

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Do not agree with your remembrance statement at all, as I believe Jesus existed for the first time since his human conception and birth.
I think this is what I was recalling.

John 6:46 NIV
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

/
 

Hillsage

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Sorry, I'm not interested in going down any Trinitarian rabbit hole with you, especially on this critical area of scripture for the understanding and relationship of the Father and his son.
Don't have to go down a rabbit hole. Just give me ONE VERSE supporting your 'count to two' ground level understanding.
" especially on this critical area of scripture for the understanding".
So you say!!!

Below is just something for those who would like to count beyond 2 in a lesson I put together years ago. :Happy:

GOD IS LIGHT AND LIGHT IS TRIUNE

1 Jn. 1:5
God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all”

GOD IS SPIRIT
JOH 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God is Spirit, and we will understand a great mystery when we see that spirit is like light.

NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD (Jesus?)
1JO 4:12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

1TI 6:16 who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.


We cannot see God with natural eyes. “No man hath seen God at any time!” Pure light is also invisible. That’s why, in outer space there is nothing but darkness, although the light rays from every star are passing through. It is only when light is reflected that it becomes visible. The rays of the sun strike the earth and are reflected off of it, creating the light of day on the planet.

1JO 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.

“God is light” and “no man hath seen God at any time!” It is only as we see the light of God as it is reflected in God’s Christ that we see Him!
JOH 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

JOH 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."


LIGHT PROPERTIES AND CHARACTERISTICS
As mentioned before, pure light is invisible. One writer has pointed out that a scientific analysis of sunlight reveals that it consists of three kinds of rays:

(1) Chemical rays, or actinic rays, are invisible and can neither be seen or felt.

(2) Light rays. These rays can be seen but never felt.

(3) Heat rays. These rays are felt but are never seen.

1Joh 1:5 “GOD IS LIGHT, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

Therefore God, in a spiritual way, has His being, function, and expression, on those three levels

We know that God has revealed Himself to us in these last days as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

God the Father corresponds to the chemical rays of sunlight which are neither seen or felt.

JOH 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard (felt with eardrums), his form you have never seen;

God the Son who wasthe light of the world”, corresponded to the light rays which were reflected, after “the Word became flesh”, the One who was seen but can no longer be felt.

2CO 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

God he Holy Spirit corresponds to the heat rays, since He is felt in the lives of believers but is never seen.

JOH 3:8
The wind/pneuma blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit/pneuma."

Now, these are not three kinds of light, but three dimensions of the one reality of light. In like manner, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three individual Gods, but three dimensions, three expressions, or three operations of the one and only God!

THE TORCH HAS BEEN PASSED UNTO US

JOH 1:9 The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world.

And we know that the “true light” spoken of here is Jesus.

JOH 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

And we know that this light was only here as long as Jesus was here in the flesh.

MAT 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid.

It is now our job to be Jesus as His physical body on this earth. We do so when we let the holy spirit of Christ in us manifest Christ in our physical bodies, or the “earthly tents that we live in.

2CO 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

EPH 5:13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. 14 For this reason it says, "Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you."

AS GOD’S LIGHT IN THIS WORLD, ARE YOU BEING SEEN AND FELT
WHILE YOU ARE BEING VISIBLE OR INVISIBLE?​
visible in body
invisible in spirit
invisible and intangible in soul
 
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Logikos

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So much abject heresy in one thread!

Most of this thread, right from the opening post, is more or less unintelligible gobbledygook that means nothing and can lead to nothing of any value whatsoever. I don't recall having ever seen such a parade of over-thinking, ivory tower, nonsensical ridiculousness in my entire life!

John 1 is not difficult to understand. God is Reason (capital R). Those of you who have a problem with that need to ask yourself why you'd have a problem with such a notion when you don't have any problem at all with stating that God is Love or that God is Righteousness. Indeed, reason is fundamental to those things. Love is impossible as is any other moral concept such as righteousness or justice (or any other aspect of relationship) apart from reason and so it is not only accurate, it is required to accept the fact that if God is Love, He is also Reason because to deny the later is to deny both.

Those of you who do have a problem with it are those of you who know you hold to self-contradictory beliefs that cannot be defended if God Himself is Reason. One person even wanted so badly to have it both ways that he tacitly postulated a God that contains both the rational and the irrational ("the mystery of the incomprehensible God" were his words) but that Jesus was just the rational part so that we poor stupid human beings could relate. How does someone say such things and not notice that they are saying that God is double minded - at best?

It's really simple, THE Creator Himself became a man and died as a sacrifice for sin. Believe it or pay your own sin debt.
 

APAK

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So much abject heresy in one thread!

Most of this thread, right from the opening post, is more or less unintelligible gobbledygook that means nothing and can lead to nothing of any value whatsoever. I don't recall having ever seen such a parade of over-thinking, ivory tower, nonsensical ridiculousness in my entire life!

John 1 is not difficult to understand. God is Reason (capital R). Those of you who have a problem with that need to ask yourself why you'd have a problem with such a notion when you don't have any problem at all with stating that God is Love or that God is Righteousness. Indeed, reason is fundamental to those things. Love is impossible as is any other moral concept such as righteousness or justice (or any other aspect of relationship) apart from reason and so it is not only accurate, it is required to accept the fact that if God is Love, He is also Reason because to deny the later is to deny both.

Those of you who do have a problem with it are those of you who know you hold to self-contradictory beliefs that cannot be defended if God Himself is Reason. One person even wanted so badly to have it both ways that he tacitly postulated a God that contains both the rational and the irrational ("the mystery of the incomprehensible God" were his words) but that Jesus was just the rational part so that we poor stupid human beings could relate. How does someone say such things and not notice that they are saying that God is double minded - at best?

It's really simple, THE Creator Himself became a man and died as a sacrifice for sin. Believe it or pay your own sin debt.
And the Creator became a man...Not! This is very unreasonable, unscriptural and sourced for pagan philosophies. You really down size and limit your Creator, the one Almighty, the magnitude and awesomeness of the unfathomable one, of who he is really, to then say he became a man, flesh and blood. And most would do the same as you and then smile to themselves and cuddle up next to a warm fire, all smug in ignorance.

Have you read scripture where Christ says he is in his Father the the Father in him and that his works are of God his Father? This explains or expands on John 1:14 and yet many run from it as they cannot stand the fact that the logos/word/reason or voice of God and his spirit possesses his human son and spirit, even today. This should not be difficult to understand and believe in, and yet over 90 percent of so-called Christians deny it. And I reckon you are one of them....
 
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Logikos

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And the Creator became a man...Not! This is very unreasonable, unscriptural and sourced for pagan philosophies. You really down size and limit your Creator....
No more so that does the Apostle John....

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.​
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”​
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.​
Revelation 2:8....‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:
Have you read scripture where Christ says he is in his Father the the Father in him and that his works are of God his Father? This explains or expands on John 1:14 and yet many run from it as they cannot stand the fact that the logos/word/reason or voice of God and his spirit possesses his human son and spirit, even today. This should not be difficult to understand and believe in, and yet over 90 percent of so-called Christians deny it. And I reckon you are one of them....
Both are true. The reasons why are a forbidden topic on this ostensibly Christian website.
 
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Hillsage

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And the Creator became a man...Not! This is very unreasonable, unscriptural and sourced for pagan philosophies. You really down size and limit your Creator, the one Almighty, the magnitude and awesomeness of the unfathomable one, of who he is really, to then say he became a man, flesh and blood. And most would do the same as you and then smile to themselves and cuddle up next to a warm fire, all smug in ignorance.
Baloney; The WORD became the FLESHLY BODY of A man....Period. And WE don't "down size and limit our Creator" at all. HE did that Himself because he knew people like YOU, can't comprehend what scripture boldly declares.

PHI 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the FORM (spirit) of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the FORM (flesh) of a servant, and coming in the LIKENESS (soul) of men.

So there you have it. THE WORD/spirit did not consider being equal to the FATHER and HOLY SPIRIT as a spirit because "GOD IS spirit". (John 4:24)

Neither does scripture say that the WORD and the SPIRIT of God became a man, supporting your view as a dichotomist. The WORD did not become the soul or the spirit. The "Creator" took the Father the Word and the Holy Spirit to CREATE.
to then say he became a man, flesh and blood.
You should have said; "to then say he became a man flesh and blood." like scripture declares? hmmx1:

HEB 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect,

Or do you "in ignorance" think that means he had 10 fingers like you????? Well actually He did have 10 fingers like you. And yoou know what else he had LIKE YOU/ME. The sin nature of "weak....sinful flesh"....that's what He had.

ROM 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
Yep, pretty much "made like all HIS BRETHREN"...except you???? Are you sure you are a brethren and that's maybe why you can't seem to wrap your mind around that which we wrap ours. AND THEN BACK IT WITH all the RED scriptures above.

Have you read scripture where Christ says he is in his Father the the Father in him and that his works are of God his Father? This explains or expands on John 1:14 and yet many run from it as they cannot stand the fact that the logos/word/reason or voice of God and his spirit possesses his human son and spirit, even today. This should not be difficult to understand and believe in, and yet over 90 percent of so-called Christians deny it. And I reckon you are one of them....
1JO 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you,
you also will abide in the Son AND in the Father.

So, according to scripture, and your butchering opinion of John 1:14, you have a double dilemma with your theological box. In this verse above;
If I am abiding IN Christ and Christ is IN the Father then the Father is IN me too.

AS for your voluminous quote of REVELATION, you do know that that was written AFTER Jesus ascended back into the GODHEAD after receiving "the name above ALL names"? A name of authority which He never got until AFTER he was crucified. He gave up being the I AM to become "sinful flesh" body of Jesus so He could be in our "LIKENESS". When He ascended he had a SPIRITUAL BODY and was once again in the SPIRIT FORM of God. A FORM which he gave up for 33 years.
 
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APAK

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... The WORD became the FLESHLY BODY of A man....Period.
I see you persist in trying persuade me to go down your rabbit hole that leads nowhere .

You know the (W)word that was, and is, and actually part of him, the Father, and with the Father God, is his own intrinsic defining divine quality or attribute. It is his internal expression and voice that caused/es everything to come into existence, and even later with the creation of his Son. And then it's obvious of course this Word cannot be a person, and nor a he, him, masculine or even feminine. It's an IT and then that makes the rest of your response useless that drops like lead balloon or like a uncontained anchor slipping into the depths of confusion and ignorance.

Try again if you want, although I would recommend you might want to take off those trinitarian glasses this time that sees only a triad of persons in scripture when there is only one YHWH.

And then you said. 'the word did not consider.' Please, I would not be so quick to embarrass myself again with this next time...

Where did you ever get the idea that Jesus was the logos anyway? From others of course or your 'church' when you were younger.

Scripture does not say that any person transformed themself from a pre-existent being, and was, the logos, the same inner expression or voice of the Father God. That does not make sense. And then you must also believe that God's logos was ripped away and stolen from him and it was then affixed and used by a created human being much later in time.

You know the logos cannot be taken out of God, part of his composition, impossible.

No, scripture says that God's voice or self-expression, his own logos, that uniquely creates, now became or existed in a person he created, in the flesh, called Yahshua or Jesus. Jesus now in a point of time, became the logos of the Father God. His Father now possessed this person, his Son, he was IN, DWELT IN him.

And John 2:23 is correct. I believe the dilemma is yours I afraid. A genuine believe possesses the spirit of Christ planted there by the Father God. So being in both Christ and then also in the Father.

See, you ignore the fact that the Father God and his Word and spirit became existent in his Son per John 1:14 and this was revealed by miraculous powers, by his miraculous works and the glorification of the Son for HIs Father John 14b.

Genuine Christians have the Father and Son spirits although NOT the use of logos and spirit in power as Christ does and did then and today. No dilemma here.

John 14: 9-11 explains John 1:14 more clearly, when Thomas continued doubting and misunderstanding as you do apparently.

The Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father. ...the Father's word along with his own spirit ( as they 'move' always together) became FLESH. Christ now possessed the mind of his Father and he revealed his Father John 1: verse 18.

Paul prayed and wrote that a genuine believer should obtain the mind of Christ as he, the Christ, obtained the mind of the Father God...the Father gave it to him by his grace.

The word and spirit in power, they are now intertwined as the Son is now given spiritual authority and power; we do not have this power. Christ prayed for those of faith to have both the Son and the Father. And of course his prayer was received and answered.

.....and on and on...
 

Hillsage

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I see you persist in trying persuade me to go down your rabbit hole that leads nowhere .
Certainly doesn't lead anywhere for those who have not eyes to see, that's for sure.

.....and on and on...
Yes you certainly do seem to 'GO' that way with every post. Enjoy your trip and we'll know one day who was right and who was wrong.
 

Logikos

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Baloney; The WORD became the FLESHLY BODY of A man....Period. And WE don't "down size and limit our Creator" at all. HE did that Himself because he knew people like YOU, can't comprehend what scripture boldly declares.

PHI 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the FORM (spirit) of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the FORM (flesh) of a servant, and coming in the LIKENESS (soul) of men.

So there you have it. THE WORD/spirit did not consider being equal to the FATHER and HOLY SPIRIT as a spirit because "GOD IS spirit". (John 4:24)

Neither does scripture say that the WORD and the SPIRIT of God became a man, supporting your view as a dichotomist. The WORD did not become the soul or the spirit. The "Creator" took the Father the Word and the Holy Spirit to CREATE.

You should have said; "to then say he became a man flesh and blood." like scripture declares? hmmx1:

HEB 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect,

Or do you "in ignorance" think that means he had 10 fingers like you????? Well actually He did have 10 fingers like you. And yoou know what else he had LIKE YOU/ME. The sin nature of "weak....sinful flesh"....that's what He had.

ROM 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
Yep, pretty much "made like all HIS BRETHREN"...except you???? Are you sure you are a brethren and that's maybe why you can't seem to wrap your mind around that which we wrap ours. AND THEN BACK IT WITH all the RED scriptures above.


1JO 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you,
you also will abide in the Son AND in the Father.

So, according to scripture, and your butchering opinion of John 1:14, you have a double dilemma with your theological box. In this verse above;
If I am abiding IN Christ and Christ is IN the Father then the Father is IN me too.

AS for your voluminous quote of REVELATION, you do know that that was written AFTER Jesus ascended back into the GODHEAD after receiving "the name above ALL names"? A name of authority which He never got until AFTER he was crucified. He gave up being the I AM to become "sinful flesh" body of Jesus so He could be in our "LIKENESS". When He ascended he had a SPIRITUAL BODY and was once again in the SPIRIT FORM of God. A FORM which he gave up for 33 years.
Yikes!

I agree with the gist of this but you are very wrong about Jesus having sinful flesh. God sent His Son, not in sinful flesh, but in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. Jesus was the SPOTLESS lamb in which no flaw existed! If His flesh was corrupted as is ours, His death wouldn't have accomplished anything. Sinful flesh couldn't stand as payment for sin! How would that work?

The key point to understand is that our "flesh", as Paul calls it, is passed to us through our father and not through our mother. This is why the virgin birth of Christ is a critical doctrine. Jesus was born of a woman and so was fully human but had no Earthly father and so did not inherit Adam's sinful flesh and being also God Himself was thus qualified to be the atoning sacrifice for all the sin of the whole world.
 

Spyder

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Simply put, the word logos in capitalized only in the book of John. As others have stated, God created this world using only his breath in the form of commands. Logos are the instructions of Yahweh. Note that using the words "he" and "him" in the first 4 verses are mistranslations. It is not until verse 14 that we are told that Jesus became the Logos of God. He was God's representative with authority on Earth for a few years, and then He was the sacrifice (the spotless lamb) that enacted the New Covenant. We who agree to be a part of that covenant then submit to baptism similar to the way the Hebrew people submitted to the old covenant via circumcision.
 
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Logikos

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Simply put, the word logos in capitalized only in the book of John. As others have stated, God created this world using only his breath in the form of commands. Logos are the instructions of Yahweh.
The English term "word" is possibly the worst possible translation of John's use of the term "Logos". First of all, the English term "word" is NEVER used in this manner anywhere else in all of English literature or speech. Secondly, and more importantly, John's audience was a Greek audience. His gospel was likely written in the Greek city of Ephesus and so ignoring the Greek meaning of "logos" would be a disastrous mistake.

Dealing first the with English term "word", the term simply conveys no meaning in the contexts of John chapter one. And I mean that quite literally. It is simply meaningless. The only way to understand it at all is for someone to explain what logos means and then you're left hoping that the person who explained it to you knows what he's talking about and from that point on, you just cognitively insert that meaning into the term "word" whenever you read John's gospel and ONLY when you read John's gospel. Nowhere else in the whole of the English language is the term "word" used in such a fashion unless it is either directly quoting or making reference to the first chapter of John.

As for the Greek, what does the term "logos" mean? Well, it is the root of the word "logic". Logos is where we get the English suffix "-ology" from, as in "biology" or "theology", etc. "Bio" means "life", "-ology" means logic, thus biology is the logic of life and that which pertains to biology is said to be biological. Similarly, "Theology" is the logos of the theos, the logic of God and that which pertains to theology is said to be theological.

Now, that's the dictionary definition of the term but that isn't quite what John is referring to when he uses the term because the Greeks had this idea about an underlying organizing force behind the working of nature which they called the logos. It wasn't merely rational thought that John was getting at but it was this idea of a divine mind that he was referring to and that his Greek audience would have instantly and intuitively understood him to be saying.

Incidentally, some have pointed out that the term "reason" is more accurate than "logic" because technically speaking "logic" refers to the rules that surround sound reason while logos is more making reference to the act of reasoning. However, in English, the terms "logic" and "reason" are mostly interchangeable in common use. They are very often used as perfect synonyms and so either term would work as a translation for "logos".

Thus, with this better understanding of the term "logos" the following translation of John 1 is offered....

John 1:1 In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​
14 And Logic became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

Noice how much better that works with verses 4 & 5 when John, after making reference to a divine Logic, talks about the light of understanding and the world's failure to comprehend it. It's just a better translation in every conceivable way.

Now, there are some who object to such a translation thinking it improper to equate the living God with some abstract concept such as logic. But it should be noted that those who make such an objection never object to God being equated with the abstract concept of "Word", nor are they typically capable of offering any explanation as to what exactly it means to say "the Word was God". In other words, people who object on the grounds of referring to God as an abstraction, typically have no real problem with abstractions so long as the abstraction being used makes no sense.

This is, however, quite a new idea to most of those reading this and so let me just cite a couple of others who have used and acknowledged the validity of such a translation. Not that doing so helps to prove anything other than that this teaching is not unique to, nor can it's genesis be attributed to me. Indeed, this idea is as old as Christianity. As evidence of both its veracity and its antiquity, I offer the following quotations, the likes of which there are many...
"...this translation––may not only sound strange to devout ears, it may even sound obnoxious and offensive. But the shock only measures the devout person's distance from the language and thought of the Greek New Testament. Why it is offensive to call Christ Logic, when it does not offend to call him a word, is hard to explain. But such is often the case. Even Augustine, because he insisted that God is truth, has been subjected to the anti–intellectualistic accusation of "reducing" God to a proposition. At any rate, the strong intellectualism of the word Logos is seen in its several possible translations: to wit, computation, (financial) accounts, esteem, proportion and (mathematical) ratio, explanation, theory or argument, principle or law, reason, formula, debate, narrative, speech, deliberation, discussion, oracle, sentence, and wisdom.​
Any translation of John 1:1 that obscures this emphasis on mind or reason is a bad translation. And if anyone complains that the idea of ratio or debate obscures the personality of the second person of the Trinity, he should alter his concept of personality. In the beginning, then, was Logic." - Gordon H. Clark; Against The World. The Trinity Review, 1978-1988. [God And Logic, Gordon H. Clark, p. 52-56] John W. Robbins, Editor.​
"For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ;" Justin Martyr: The First Apology of Justin Chapter V​
Logos n. < Gr, a word: see Logic 1 Gr. Philos. reason, thought of as constituting the controlling principle of the universe and as being manifested by speech 2 Christian Theol. the eternal thought or word of God, made incarnate in Jesus Christ: John 1 - Webster's Dictionary​
 
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Hillsage

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SPYDER, how did you get your 'Scripture4all.org' url to copy like you did? Every time I've ever tried to 'Copy/Paste' from that same site, it comes out like this below, which is worthless IMO;

John
:11 en
en
G1722
Prep
IN
arch
archE
G746
n_ Dat Sg f
ORIGINal
beginning
hn
En
G2258
vi Impf vxx 3 Sg
WAS
o
ho
G3588
t_ Nom Sg m
THE
logos
logos
G3056
n_ Nom Sg m
saying
word
kai
kai
G2532
Conj
AND
o
ho
G3588
t_ Nom Sg m
THE
logos
logos
G3056
n_ Nom Sg m
saying
word
hn
En
G2258
vi Impf vxx 3 Sg
WAS
. In the beginning was the
Word, and the Word was with
God, and the Word was God.
 

Hillsage

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Yikes!

I agree with the gist of this but you are very wrong about Jesus having sinful flesh. God sent His Son, not in sinful flesh, but in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. Jesus was the SPOTLESS lamb in which no flaw existed! If His flesh was corrupted as is ours, His death wouldn't have accomplished anything. Sinful flesh couldn't stand as payment for sin! How would that work?
I'm disagree and here's why; because God said; "LET US make man IN OUR IMAGE and AFTER OUR LIKENESS." 'Image' equals substance and the substance of GOD was spirit. 'Likeness' equals character. God wanted to represent His invisible spirit image and His visible likeness character to his creation through ADAM who was the first "son of God". And 'that son' did not have the Holy Spirit of God in Him, but he did have a spirit FROM God breathed into him. And I personally believe that it was possibly the same spirit that our spirit got 'born again' into when WE became son's of God, having the same spirit Jesus was born with.

1CO 6:17* But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


Unfortunately for us Translators should have never capitalized the first spirit in Romans 8:16 because then people falsely think it is talking about 'the Holy Spirit of God', when it is really talking about 'the holy spirit of Christ' which was in Jesus.

To "witness" means to testify jointly. Just like joint heirs who are individuals who have common ownership or action.
XR with 1Co 10:17

1CO 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body:(the body/flesh of Christ) for we are all partakers of that one bread.

It was the 'spirit of Christ' in Jesus that made him a son of God and not His sinful flesh body which was made "like unto his brethren IN EVERY RESPECT" (You and Me). If Jesus was GOD 33 years then he couldn't be the son of Himself'. That is why the WORD gave up equality as a God spirit to become flesh. But "God is spirit" and that's what made the spirit of Christ in Jesus the son of God. If Jesus did what He did on earth AS GOD then He isn't a good role model for me, when He tells me to be 'PERFECT as the Father' and 'HOLY as Jesus'. But when he did what He did because he was made like me, then that inspires me to BELIEVE for the 'seemingly' impossible.
The key point to understand is that our "flesh", as Paul calls it, is passed to us through our father and not through our mother. This is why the virgin birth of Christ is a critical doctrine. Jesus was born of a woman and so was fully human but had no Earthly father and so did not inherit Adam's sinful flesh and being also God Himself was thus qualified to be the atoning sacrifice for all the sin of the whole world.
There are 3 seeds to make a human being fetus. One seed comes from the male called sperm. One seed comes from the mother called egg and one seed comes from God called a spirit. And please quote what verse says 'flesh' is passed on through the father? I don't remember that one. I do know that Iniquities are passed on to the 3 or 4 generation, but not transgressions or sins.
And he became the atoning sacrifice because he did not give into being tempted in every manner like us

ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit (holy spirit of Christ in me).

Jesus condemned the sin temptation of his flesh ,which was just like our sin natured flesh. That's the only way He could be tempted like us, because the BIBLE SAYS GOD CAN NOT BE TEMPTED,

JAM 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one;

1CO 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.


Again I say; If Jesus never sinned because he was God then He is no priest I can obey because I'm not GOD, in the flesh of GOD and not man like you appear to believe.

Jesus wasn't born perfect, he was born sinless and He remained so because he suffered sinful flesh temptation like us for the same reason as us.

HEB 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all one origin. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

When He did it 'like us' He can now look at us and tell us to 'do it' like He did.

Hope this helps you understand better where I'm coming from, whether you agree or not.
 

Spyder

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Jan 9, 2024
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SPYDER, how did you get your 'Scripture4all.org' url to copy like you did? Every time I've ever tried to 'Copy/Paste' from that same site, it comes out like this below, which is worthless IMO;

John
:11 en
en
G1722
Prep
IN
arch
archE
G746
n_ Dat Sg f
ORIGINal
beginning
hn
En
G2258
vi Impf vxx 3 Sg
WAS
o
ho
G3588
t_ Nom Sg m
THE
logos
logos
G3056
n_ Nom Sg m
saying
word
kai
kai
G2532
Conj
AND
o
ho
G3588
t_ Nom Sg m
THE
logos
logos
G3056
n_ Nom Sg m
saying
word
hn
En
G2258
vi Impf vxx 3 Sg
WAS
. In the beginning was the
Word, and the Word was with
God, and the Word was God.
Fn Print Screen. Then paste to Paint, crop if necessary, and save as JPG.
 

St. SteVen

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SPYDER, how did you get your 'Scripture4all.org' url to copy like you did? Every time I've ever tried to 'Copy/Paste' from that same site, it comes out like this below, which is worthless IMO;
It's a screen capture image, not text.

1) Right click in margin.
2) Select "Take Screenshot" from pull-down menu.
3) Adjust cropping to suit.
4) Click "Copy". (or download if you want to save it for other uses)
5) Go to page where you want to paste it.
6) Click where you want it. Paste.
7) Like this. (hit reply to see it is an image, not text)

1706623619766.png

/
 

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Logikos

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I'm disagree and here's why; because God said; "LET US make man IN OUR IMAGE and AFTER OUR LIKENESS." 'Image' equals substance and the substance of GOD was spirit. 'Likeness' equals character. God wanted to represent His invisible spirit image and His visible likeness character to his creation through ADAM who was the first "son of God". And 'that son' did not have the Holy Spirit of God in Him, but he did have a spirit FROM God breathed into him. And I personally believe that it was possibly the same spirit that our spirit got 'born again' into when WE became son's of God, having the same spirit Jesus was born with.

1CO 6:17* But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


Unfortunately for us Translators should have never capitalized the first spirit in Romans 8:16 because then people falsely think it is talking about 'the Holy Spirit of God', when it is really talking about 'the holy spirit of Christ' which was in Jesus.

To "witness" means to testify jointly. Just like joint heirs who are individuals who have common ownership or action.
XR with 1Co 10:17

1CO 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body:(the body/flesh of Christ) for we are all partakers of that one bread.

It was the 'spirit of Christ' in Jesus that made him a son of God and not His sinful flesh body which was made "like unto his brethren IN EVERY RESPECT" (You and Me). If Jesus was GOD 33 years then he couldn't be the son of Himself'. That is why the WORD gave up equality as a God spirit to become flesh. But "God is spirit" and that's what made the spirit of Christ in Jesus the son of God. If Jesus did what He did on earth AS GOD then He isn't a good role model for me, when He tells me to be 'PERFECT as the Father' and 'HOLY as Jesus'. But when he did what He did because he was made like me, then that inspires me to BELIEVE for the 'seemingly' impossible.

There are 3 seeds to make a human being fetus. One seed comes from the male called sperm. One seed comes from the mother called egg and one seed comes from God called a spirit. And please quote what verse says 'flesh' is passed on through the father? I don't remember that one. I do know that Iniquities are passed on to the 3 or 4 generation, but not transgressions or sins.
And he became the atoning sacrifice because he did not give into being tempted in every manner like us

ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit (holy spirit of Christ in me).

Jesus condemned the sin temptation of his flesh ,which was just like our sin natured flesh. That's the only way He could be tempted like us, because the BIBLE SAYS GOD CAN NOT BE TEMPTED,

JAM 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one;

1CO 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.


Again I say; If Jesus never sinned because he was God then He is no priest I can obey because I'm not GOD, in the flesh of GOD and not man like you appear to believe.

Jesus wasn't born perfect, he was born sinless and He remained so because he suffered sinful flesh temptation like us for the same reason as us.

HEB 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all one origin. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

When He did it 'like us' He can now look at us and tell us to 'do it' like He did.

Hope this helps you understand better where I'm coming from, whether you agree or not.
You are not a Christian.

Man! This site is full of you people! This is two in one day!

I DO NOT debate Christian doctrine with unbelievers.

Bottom line....

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

John 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him;