The Myth of the Poverty of Jesus

[rand]

so is disfunctionalism

 

[Pelaides]

All of Jesuses early followers were poor,Paul described himself as a beggar.All the early apostles were instructed to sell all their worldly possesions.

 

[Foreigner]

Reality is not defined by you or your experiences

-- That quote should have been the very first thing posted by someone else after your initial post.

Typical idiotic,ill informed and ignorant statement from you

-- Amazing. I can see Christ in every words you say....

 

[epostle1]

We might get the idea that The Holy Family was poor by comparing Leviticus 12:8 with Luke 2: 22-40. There is nothing in scripture that says they were poor. Our Lord's foster-father, Joseph, had a trade. Then why did they offer two doves instead of a lamb? Because to offer a lamb, it would have been inappropriate, not because they couldn't afford one. Jesus is the Lamb of God.

Jesus never taught the prosperity heresy, common in the Word of Faith movement. He taught detachment from material things so we could be more attached to God. This is evident in the story of the rich young man. If you want more of God, then you give up more of the world. There is nothing wrong with wealth, what's wrong is when wealth becomes your top priority. I don't think any of us are like that.

When was the last time you heard the phrase “evangelical counsels”? If you think it must refer to a fundamentalist law firm, you’re probably not alone.
The truth of the matter is that the three evangelical counsels are a key concept for Christian life, because they’re the lifestyle that Jesus chose for himself: chastity, poverty, and obedience. But it’s no secret that these three vows continue their long plunge in popularity in today’s society.

I'll skip chastity and obedience for now, I don't like to post off topic. But they are very much related.

No money: this is the definition of poverty the world will give you. How can it possibly see the attraction of Evangelical Strait-Jacket Number Two? It seems no more than renunciation and sacrifice.

But for those of us who have faith in Jesus, can we put a positive spin on poverty?

If faith is alive, then, yes! Where the world sees a strait-jacket, we see a hidden treasure. Yes, we give things up, but for the sake of clinging to God. Poverty, in the first place, doesn’t mean I spend no money. It means I spend all my “money” on him. I spend all my resources on him. All my faculties and possessions, even my time, become his property and my free gift. And because every free choice necessarily implies a renunciation of what I don’t choose, poverty entails sacrifice. But wouldn’t we be foolish to miss the treasure and see nothing but the price tag?

"Poverty proclaims that God is man’s only real treasure" (John Paul II, On Consecrated Life, n. 21).
Ultimately, it is faith in Jesus’ word and example that unveil this hidden treasure.

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, theirs is the kingdom of heaven” (Mt 5:3).

“So do not worry and say, ‘What are we to eat?’ or ‘What are we to drink?’ or ‘What are we to wear?’ All these things the pagans seek. Your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you besides” (Mt 6:31-33).

“The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure buried in a field, which a person finds and hides again, and out of joy goes and sells all that he has and buys that field” (Mt 13:44).

Not everyone is called to total consecration of their minds, hearts and souls to God, giving up EVERYTHING, including having a family. When you receive Jesus into your heart as Lord and Savior, there is more than just "receiving". You are handing your whole being into His care. It is a "giving", a surrendering too. I think that is a holy poverty that all of us are called to, no matter what church you belong to.

 

[Axehead]

Jesus never taught the prosperity heresy, common in the Word of Faith movement. He taught detachment from material things so we could be more attached to God. This is evident in the story of the rich young man. If you want more of God, then you give up more of the world. There is nothing wrong with wealth, what's wrong is when wealth becomes your top priority. I don't think any of us are like that.

When was the last time you heard the phrase “evangelical counsels”? If you think it must refer to a fundamentalist law firm, you’re probably not alone.

The truth of the matter is that the three evangelical counsels are a key concept for Christian life, because they’re the lifestyle that Jesus chose for himself: chastity, poverty, and obedience. But it’s no secret that these three vows continue their long plunge in popularity in today’s society.

Jesus did not choose a lifestyle, He chose to bring all His desires in subjection to one desire. The desire to do His Father's will.

Vows, abstinence, poverty, chastity cannot change the heart. We see the hypocrisy of this in Catholicism (thousands of priests molesting children) and in Protestantism (sexual sins and greed from the pulpit).

How then does one come to have righteousness in the heart?


http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16467-can-you-be-righteous/page__st__150

Axehead

 

[epostle1]

Axehead your post has been reported.

 

[Axehead]

Thanks for letting me know. Am I supposed to feel intimidated by that information? Was it something I said about the Protestants?

Seriously now, didn't you realize that all that information about unchaste priests has been in the public domain for quite a while, now?

Kepha, I know you are a Catholic apologist come over here to stir up trouble and I don't know why in the world you would want to occupy your time doing that when you could be with all your buds at another forum. Obviously, you are not the everyday "layman" since you are so familiar with Scott Hahn, Patrick Madrid, Dave Armstrong and Richard Bennett.

It just strikes me as ironic that you want to stir up trouble in a non-Catholic forum and then report someone that stands up to you and your bully tactics.

As I said, thanks for letting me know.

Axehead

 

[Foreigner]

Axehead your post has been reported.

-- What on earth is the problem with his post?
Thousand of children HAVE been molested at the hands of Priests.
The majority of them have been boys (which indicates a seperate issue altogether).
Many protestant leaders HAVE been busted for sexual perversions and misappropriation of money.

What is he going to be busted for? "Inconvenient accuracy?"

 

[aspen]

"According to a Christian Science Monitor report in 2002: "Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers."
The Monitor went on to reveal, "These are findings from national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources (CMR), a tax and legal-advice publisher serving more than 75,000 congregations and 1,000 denominational agencies nationwide. CMR's annual surveys of about 1,000 churches nationwide have asked about sexual abuse since 1993. They're a remarkable window on a problem that lurked largely in the shadows of public awareness until the Catholic scandals arose."
In Texas, right now, a similar "Preacher Killed Wife" story is in its closing stages and once again, the child-molesting part gets buried halfway down the page. Former Baptist minister Matt Baker is being sentenced for murdering his wife several years ago. The case almost didn't come to trial because the wife's death was originally ruled a suicide. It seems that Baker was a long-time womanizer. Along the way Baker allegedly had sex not only with adult women but also with underage girls. But no real investigation of these statutory-rape cases has happened."

Here is the reference so you can discredit it, Foreigner: http://www.bilerico.com/2010/04/the_other_shoe_child_molesting_by_non-catholic_cle.php

Molestation of children happens in all institutions where kids are carried for - yet, I do not associate Protestant ministers with molesting children - when I think of Protestant ministers, I think of Christ. So why should anyone associate Catholic Clergy with molestation, unless they are simply attacking the Catholic Church?

 

[Strat]

-- That quote should have been the very first thing posted by someone else after your initial post.




-- Amazing. I can see Christ in every words you say....

I don't post for your approval or disapproval and couldn't care less about what you see or don't see in them.

"According to a Christian Science Monitor report in 2002: "Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers."
The Monitor went on to reveal, "These are findings from national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources (CMR), a tax and legal-advice publisher serving more than 75,000 congregations and 1,000 denominational agencies nationwide. CMR's annual surveys of about 1,000 churches nationwide have asked about sexual abuse since 1993. They're a remarkable window on a problem that lurked largely in the shadows of public awareness until the Catholic scandals arose."
In Texas, right now, a similar "Preacher Killed Wife" story is in its closing stages and once again, the child-molesting part gets buried halfway down the page. Former Baptist minister Matt Baker is being sentenced for murdering his wife several years ago. The case almost didn't come to trial because the wife's death was originally ruled a suicide. It seems that Baker was a long-time womanizer. Along the way Baker allegedly had sex not only with adult women but also with underage girls. But no real investigation of these statutory-rape cases has happened."

Here is the reference so you can discredit it, Foreigner: http://www.bilerico....atholic_cle.php

Molestation of children happens in all institutions where kids are carried for - yet, I do not associate Protestant ministers with molesting children - when I think of Protestant ministers, I think of Christ. So why should anyone associate Catholic Clergy with molestation, unless they are simply attacking the Catholic Church?

Perhaps its the way they chose to handle it,or do you not see anything wrong with covering it up and transferring priest from one place to another

 

[aspen]

I don't post for your approval or disapproval and couldn't care less about what you see or don't see in them.



Perhaps its the way they chose to handle it,or do you not see anything wrong with covering it up and transferring priest from one place to another

Actually, the Catholic Church handled the molestation problem just like all organizations before the 1980's - badly. To compound the problem, the Catholic Church continued to treated child molesters as 'sick' rather than criminal throughout the 80s and mid 90s - most churches are about 15 to 20 years behind. My point is, child molestation is not a Catholic problem or a Christian problem - it is a sin problem that is found in all institutions with children served by adults.

 

[Strat]

Actually, the Catholic Church handled the molestation problem just like all organizations before the 1980's - badly. To compound the problem, the Catholic Church continued to treated child molesters as 'sick' rather than criminal throughout the 80s and mid 90s - most churches are about 15 to 20 years behind. My point is, child molestation is not a Catholic problem or a Christian problem - it is a sin problem that is found in all institutions with children served by adults.

I see...so that makes it ok...a church doing things the way all other secular organizations...no different standards for "christians"

 

[aspen]

I see...so that makes it ok...a church doing things the way all other secular organizations...no different standards for "christians"

Where did you get that idea from my post? Last time I checked, molesting children is wrong inside and outside the church; so is covering up the crime.

 

[Strat]

Where did you get that idea from my post? Last time I checked, molesting children is wrong inside and outside the church; so is covering up the crime.

Then why complain about the justified criticism that the Catholic church has received for the way it has handled things...the bottom line is supposed to be right and wrong for christians...isn't it ? not everybody's doing it and why is everybody always picking on me.

 

[aspen]

Then why complain about the justified criticism that the Catholic church has received for the way it has handled things...the bottom line is supposed to be right and wrong for christians...isn't it ? not everybody's doing it and why is everybody always picking on me.

It is not accurate to single out the Catholic Church when the crime of molestation and cover up occurs in all churches.

 

[epostle1]

-- What on earth is the problem with his post?
Thousand of children HAVE been molested at the hands of Priests.
The majority of them have been boys (which indicates a seperate issue altogether).
Many protestant leaders HAVE been busted for sexual perversions and misappropriation of money.

What is he going to be busted for? "Inconvenient accuracy?"

The problem with his post is that sex scandals have nothing to do with post #24, nothing to do with any post, and nothing to do with the topic. Not once did I mention any church. It was on the topic of poverty as it applies to all Christians. Since he can't find anything wrong with my post he has to take cheap shots because he is fixated on hounding every post I make because I am Catholic.

He said nothing of Protestant ministers in sex scandals. Just Catholics. Of Protestant ministers, he talked of greed and something else. He is a church basher. That's why the post got deleted. Argue your "inconvenient accuracy" with Webmaster. My respect for this forum has just been elevated.


It doesn't matter what the topic is. If you hate Catholicism, drag in sex scandals to derail the thread. It doesn't matter if a post (24) is edifying to all believers, there is nothing in the post that we can argue against. A Catholic wrote it so lets scourge them with sex scandals. It doesn't matter of the topic is scripture, theology, history, if a Catholic writes something, lets scourge them with sex scandals. 39 at least.

That is a different kind of poverty.

I'm not afraid of the facts, and unlike some, I get no pleasure in rubbing filth in peoples noses. But this thread is not about sex scandals. It's about poverty.

 

[Foreigner]

I don't post for your approval or disapproval and couldn't care less about what you see or don't see in them.

-- That statement would have carried weight if you hadn't proatively responded to me twice already in this thread.

"According to a Christian Science Monitor report in 2002: "Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers."

-- Hmmmm....Did you really miss the part where I said, "Many protestant leaders HAVE been busted for sexual perversions and misappropriation of money?"


The CSM article you quoted also states that the Catholic church makes up only 5% of all churches in the United States.
One would HOPE that the number of abuse cases nationwide WOULD be higher among all the non-Catholic churches when combined.
After all, they make up 95% of all churches.

From the article:
"The Catholics have gotten all the attention from the media, but this problem is even greater with the Protestant churches simply because of their far larger numbers,"
(You sure broke some news there, Aspen. ;))

Your article also mentions that one of the reasons the for the numbers reported on the Protestant side is because they are actually willing to report the cases of abuse: "To me it says Protestants are less reluctant to come forward because they don't put their clergy on as high a pedestal as Catholics do with their priests."
That implies that - percentage wise - there are likely fewer instances of unreported cases within Protestant churches than within the Catholic Church.

Compare that with the (minimum of) hundreds of documented cases where the Catholic heirarchy, instead of punishing the molesting priest and seeking help for the victims, simply moved the abusive priest to a new diocese without informing them that their new parson was a pervert.

One is left wondering just how many thousand additional children were abused over the decades AFTER the original abuses simply because the Catholic church - instead of addressing the issue - instead chose to move the the offending priests to new hunting grounds.

 

[aspen]

-- That statement would have carried weight if you hadn't proatively responded to me twice already in this thread.






-- Hmmmm....Did you really miss the part where I said, "Many protestant leaders HAVE been busted for sexual perversions and misappropriation of money?"


The CSM article you quoted also states that the Catholic church makes up only 5% of all churches in the United States.
One would HOPE that the number of abuse cases nationwide WOULD be higher among all the non-Catholic churches when combined.
After all, they make up 95% of all churches.

From the article:
"The Catholics have gotten all the attention from the media, but this problem is even greater with the Protestant churches simply because of their far larger numbers,"
(You sure broke some news there, Aspen. ;))

Your article also mentions that one of the reasons the for the numbers reported on the Protestant side is because they are actually willing to report the cases of abuse: "To me it says Protestants are less reluctant to come forward because they don't put their clergy on as high a pedestal as Catholics do with their priests."
That implies that - percentage wise - there are likely fewer instances of unreported cases within Protestant churches than within the Catholic Church.

Compare that with the (minimum of) hundreds of documented cases where the Catholic heirarchy, instead of punishing the molesting priest and seeking help for the victims, simply moved the abusive priest to a new diocese without informing them that their new parson was a pervert.

One is left wondering just how many thousand additional children were abused over the decades AFTER the original abuses simply because the Catholic church - instead of addressing the issue - instead chose to move the the offending priests to new hunting grounds.

I think you missed my point Foreigner - I did not mention the article to declare the Catholic Church right and the Protestant Church wrong; my point is that all churches have had to deal with this sin and have done so in an outdated and ineffective manner. Yet, the problem I see on this board - including your posts in the past, is the reoccurring idea that molestation and other sex crimes between clergy and children are associated with the Catholic church, as if it is a reflection on the truthfulness of Catholic doctrine.

 

[epostle1]

In accordance with a requirement of President Bush's No Child Left Behind Act, in 2002 the Department of Education carried out a study of sexual abuse in the school system.

Hofstra University researcher Charol Shakeshaft looked into the problem, and the first thing that came to her mind when Education Week reported on the study were the daily headlines about the Catholic Church.

"[T]hink the Catholic Church has a problem?" she said. "The physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests."

So, in order to better protect children, did media outlets start hounding the worse menace of the school systems, with headlines about a "Nationwide Teacher Molestation Cover-up" and by asking "Are Ed Schools Producing Pedophiles?"

No, they didn't. That treatment was reserved for the Catholic Church, while the greater problem in the schools was ignored altogether.

From CBC News.

Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments on the findings of the 2011 Annual Report on priestly sexual abuse that was released by the bishops’ conference; the survey was done by a Georgetown institute:

The headlines should read, “Abuse Problem Near Zero Among Priests,” but that is not what is being reported.

According to the 2011 Official Catholic Directory, there are 40,271 priests in the U.S. The report says there were 23 credible accusations of the sexual abuse of a minor made against priests for incidences last year. Of that number, 9 were deemed credible by law enforcement. Which means that 99.98% of priests nationwide had no such accusation made against them last year. Nowhere is this being reported.

Here are more data from the report that won’t appear elsewhere: almost all the offenses involve homosexuality. Indeed, 16% of the credible allegations made against priests who work in dioceses or eparchies, and 6% of religious order priests, involved pedophilia. In the former category, 82% of the alleged victims were male; in the latter, the figure is 94%. In other words, we are not talking about kids as victims, and we are not talking about females: we are talking about postpubescent males who were allegedly violated by adult males.
That’s called homosexuality.

When did these alleged offenses take place? Overall, 68% took place between 1960 and 1984; 1975-1979 being the most common period (among religious order priests, 33% took place before 1960, and another 40% took place between 1960-1980). In 75% of all the cases, the accused priest is either dead or has been dismissed.

Since more than 10% of the credible allegations were found to be false or unsubstantiated, it makes one wonder how many of the total number of accusations are bogus. The bishops should commission a study of those priests whose reputations have been ruined by cash-hungry liars and their rapacious lawyers; the looters should also be studied. The Catholic League would be happy to make a generous donation.
source

Foreigner, you seem to be more concerned with the identity of the abuser than you are about kids. Maybe you can find something on line where a Protestant leader or minister, meets with victims face to face. Or maybe you can show me similar reforms in Protestant bible colleges admissions criteria that weed out potential abusers. If you are going to cite a statistic, please quote the source instead of making it up.

VATICAN'S RESPONSE TO THE ABUSE OF MINORS

Get off your witch hunt.

 

[Strat]

-- That statement would have carried weight if you hadn't proatively responded to me twice already in this thread.






-- Hmmmm....Did you really miss the part where I said, "Many protestant leaders HAVE been busted for sexual perversions and misappropriation of money?"


The CSM article you quoted also states that the Catholic church makes up only 5% of all churches in the United States.
One would HOPE that the number of abuse cases nationwide WOULD be higher among all the non-Catholic churches when combined.
After all, they make up 95% of all churches.

From the article:
"The Catholics have gotten all the attention from the media, but this problem is even greater with the Protestant churches simply because of their far larger numbers,"
(You sure broke some news there, Aspen. ;))

Your article also mentions that one of the reasons the for the numbers reported on the Protestant side is because they are actually willing to report the cases of abuse: "To me it says Protestants are less reluctant to come forward because they don't put their clergy on as high a pedestal as Catholics do with their priests."
That implies that - percentage wise - there are likely fewer instances of unreported cases within Protestant churches than within the Catholic Church.

Compare that with the (minimum of) hundreds of documented cases where the Catholic heirarchy, instead of punishing the molesting priest and seeking help for the victims, simply moved the abusive priest to a new diocese without informing them that their new parson was a pervert.

One is left wondering just how many thousand additional children were abused over the decades AFTER the original abuses simply because the Catholic church - instead of addressing the issue - instead chose to move the the offending priests to new hunting grounds.

Well you know what you can do with that.