What is the difference between a Jew and a Christian?
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There are tons of them.....everything actually pointed to Him......but you would need eyes to see and ears to hear.
I think it might help advance the conversation if you would state (or restate) for our readers the number of messianic prophecies that you (and / or Judaism) believe there actually are in the Hebrew Bible.
The earliest Christians were Jews -> Jews who were disciples of a fellow Jew whom they believed is the subject of all messianic prophecy.
The majority of Jews didn’t, and still don’t, believe that that man was the subject of the messianic prophecies.
Reasons vary.
Even those Jews who believed that he is the messiah came to doubt it when he was executed. Resurrection of the man was the game changer. Everything stands or falls on the matter of his resurrection.
Readers shouldn’t be troubled by the assertions of unbelievers that Jesus of Nazareth didn’t do everything the messiah is prophesied to do before he was executed. Why? Death didn’t undo what Jesus did because death is not the end of his story.
The majority of Jews didn’t, and still don’t, believe that that man was the subject of the messianic prophecies.
Reasons vary.
Even those Jews who believed that he is the messiah came to doubt it when he was executed. Resurrection of the man was the game changer. Everything stands or falls on the matter of his resurrection.
Readers shouldn’t be troubled by the assertions of unbelievers that Jesus of Nazareth didn’t do everything the messiah is prophesied to do before he was executed. Why? Death didn’t undo what Jesus did because death is not the end of his story.
Bs"d
Even in the New Testament there is NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS of his resurrection. No man saw him get up from the grave and walk away.
Oh, but he appeared to his disciples. Well, in that case, can you explain to me why nobody recognized him? Look in Luke 24:13-35. This speaks about the men on the road to Emmaus. He met them, but they didn't recognize him.
The same thing happens in John 20:14; "At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, ... "
She thought he was the gardener....
John 21:4 "Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. He called out to them, ..."
And again they didn't recognize him.
Isn't it strange that they didn't recognize the person with whom they were so close for years?
But the NT gives the answer to that strange phenomena. Look in Mark 16:12-13 "Afterward Jesus appeared IN A DIFFERENT FORM to two of them while they were walking in the country."
So it was a person "in a different form" from the previous well known person who appeared to them, that's why they didn't recognize him.
A person in different form from the old Christ, who was not recognized by the people he interacted with for years, only days before, doesn't that sounds like an impostor who is pretending to be the resurrected messiah?
That also explains why some of the disciples doubted when the "resurrected messiah" appeared to them: "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." Matt 28:17.
Can you imagine that the authentic messiah appears to you and you still doubt?
Apparently he was not so authentic.
If the disciples, who saw the "resurrected Christ" with their own eyes, still doubted, why then do the Christians 2000 years later, who have nothing to go by but stories, don't doubt?
That’s a good start. Christians you’ve spoken with have referred to many, hundreds. You see few, around half a dozen. That’s an important difference between Jews and Christians.
Are Christians expecting the messiah to do more things than you are?
Would you list those messianic prophecies that you can think of off the top of your head? Christians should be able to agree with those which you list.
What is faith and who is to live by it?
| Ro 1:17 | For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. |
| Heb 11:1 | Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. |
You’ve established the NT as the witness. As you will go on to relate for us, many men saw and spoke with him following his resurrection.
Has it ever crossed your mind that Jesus didn’t want them to recognize him while they were on the road? The witness of the NT is that they did recognize him when they reached Emmaus and, later, when he appeared to others.
Continuing with the witness, she soon came to recognize him in the garden.
Returning to our witness, they soon did recognize him on the shore.
You’ve only presented the witness in part. The entire witness must be given. The witness must be allowed to speak, to express, all that it has to say. When it is, the witness is that they quickly came to recognize him.
For “form” we should think ”appearance”. His personal appearance is attested by the witness, which you here acknowledge but don’t believe.
No.
Had I been in their company I’m sure I would have reacted as they did.
The witness is that he is authentic.
Once again, return to the witness. Those who saw him didn’t remain in doubt. They were certain.
Bs"d
Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."
Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
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Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."
They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.
In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.
Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."
When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.
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Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.
Bs"d
The hundreds of messianic prophecies that the Christians see don't exist.
What they do is ripping texts which have no bearing on the messiah what so ever out of context, and presenting them as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC", something they are obviously not.
For the finer details look here: Home
Thanks. Christians should have no problem agreeing with you that the passages you’ve quoted are messianic prophecies.
The man you’re looking for will not be able to do any of that in an instant. We should be able to agree that it will take a span of time to accomplish.
So you say. However, other Jews, whom you’ve acknowledged in a previous post, agree with the Christians.
Jews disagreeing with Jews (and Christians) on the interpretation of scripture is epic.
What obviously is to some Jews is obviously not to other Jews. The “obviously” argument won’t ever resolve the issue.
The NT witness to the life of Jesus is a conflict between Jews which arose within the context of second Temple Judaism.
Bs"d
Let's get serious. Here's an example of the list of the "324 messianic prophecies": Gen. 5:24....The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated....
Here is Gen 5:24; "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.”
Can anybody seriously say this is a messianic prophecy??
And the rest is not much better.
It's a bad joke. And an evil one.
I’ve been serious the entire time and I believed you to have been, too.
Someone must or you wouldn’t have presented it. I don’t consider it to be a messianic prophecy. I don’t think any NT writer identifies it as a messianic prophecy.
I think you’ve probably read, as I have, many things written by rabbis that are bizarre and you wouldn’t agree with.
The Rabbis were serious.
Speaking of serious, the NT storyline on Jesus is Jews for him and Jews against him.
You’re representing, at least to some extent, the Jews who were against him in that conflict. Meanwhile, I‘m representing the Jews who were for him in that conflict.
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Bs"d
You can find that so called "messianic prophecy" here, right in the beginning: You are being redirected...
It's a Christian site, see here: You are being redirected...
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Spiritual blindness prevents any possible vision of any past prophecies fulfilled. Rather look ahead.
Israel’s Rejection Not Total
11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? ...7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
9 And David says:
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”
>>> Israel’s Rejection Not Final<<<
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. ...16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. ...
Because of unbelief they were broken off, ... 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
ROMANS 11:1-3, 7-11, 16-18, 22-27
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Now ... right now, the war in Israel will escalate. After Gaza, then to the north in Lebonon, the Hezbollahs. Then of course it won't be over. Iran is the head of the snake - or should I say dragon who is currently gather ten nations that will come against Israel. This is the war prophesied about that will bring the Messiah, whom every eye will see ... then you will know.
Thanks. Some list it as a messianic prophecy but most sites (and commentaries) I’ve looked at don’t.
You don’t feel the need to agree with all Jews. I don’t feel the need to agree with all Christians.
What would persuade me is if someone could point out where a NT writer believes it is a messianic prophecy.
No one comes to the Father bro ! but through his only begotten Son ! see that fact !
Now no one comes directly to God, do they ! They have to come through Christ Jesus in fact !
Not to mention that Jesus only does the will of the Father in fact ! but also is the Alpha and the omega in fact, see that fact !
So we can see that The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are as one in fact ! for they do not exist in regards to Man without the 3.
So take one of the 3 out of the point and lets say the Holy spirit was to vanish ? then you would not have the Father would you in fact, or no way of a Key to the Father at all in fact !
Now take Jesus out of the issue and see once again one does not have the Key to the Father or the Holy Spirit in fact !
Now their are spirits ? but only one Holy Spirit and this only came to light for us through Christ Jesus in fact !
The Disciples of Jesus were Jews bro and they got the message in fact because they were worthy of the God of Holy Moses for they understood him, so they were worthy of Israel ! The rest of the Jews were Lost fooled into swallowing the trash that was leading the Jews astray in fact and Jesus points this out many a time. and they hate him for exposing the Anti-God Satan driven by delusions and deceptions of this world, for they were not on track regarding Holy Moses in fact !
They the majority of Jews were not worthy of the OT God back in the days, that's why Jesus came ! As Holy Moses said he would come !
The Leadership of the Jews were not worthy of God in fact for they have been lead astray ! just like they are nowadays not worthy of God at all in fact but a abomination to God in fact !
Now Saul was with them poor blighted Jews for he was blind to God but God Spoke to him, for he had a good heart ? and he got the message and became Paul !
The Christian website linked in this post is popular with many, but not all, Christians @Eliyahu613.
It attempts to list messianic prophecies. Please note that it doesn’t include Genesis 5:24. Please also note that it speaks about the difficulty of putting together such a list, that lists vary, and doesn’t claim that there aren’t others.
Some might say that the Christians behind this website are being conservative and, at the same time, generous to other Christians. They are open to the possibility that there may be others.
As I’ve mentioned, I’m persuaded where I find a NT writer (all Jews, with the probable exception of Luke) documenting apostolic belief that a passage is a messianic prophecy.
It attempts to list messianic prophecies. Please note that it doesn’t include Genesis 5:24. Please also note that it speaks about the difficulty of putting together such a list, that lists vary, and doesn’t claim that there aren’t others.
How many prophecies did Jesus fulfill? | GotQuestions.org
How many prophecies did Jesus fulfill? What are all of the prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
www.gotquestions.org
Some might say that the Christians behind this website are being conservative and, at the same time, generous to other Christians. They are open to the possibility that there may be others.
As I’ve mentioned, I’m persuaded where I find a NT writer (all Jews, with the probable exception of Luke) documenting apostolic belief that a passage is a messianic prophecy.
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