Faith: True and False

[GracePeace]

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
— John 1:13

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
— 1 Peter 1:5

Please keep in mind that the main topic is the fact that John's Gospel seems to teach there is such a thing as an invalid faith--it's not mainly whether people can or can't fall away (though I was entertaining that tangent with @marks, we had started that convo based on the original topic).

 

[Waiting on him]

Please keep in mind that the main topic is the fact that John's Gospel seems to teach there is such a thing as an invalid faith--it's not mainly whether people can or can't fall away (though I was entertaining that tangent with @marks, we had started that convo based on the original topic).

I believe the miscommunication we are having is due to the fact that I believe saving faith is the power of God. I do not believe it is something that originates from me.

Keep in mind that when Peter penned this letter he had been gifted with the Holy Spirit for some years, and I’m almost certain he would have remembered his faithless endeavors prior to Pentecost?

 

[Waiting on him]

Please keep in mind that the main topic is the fact that John's Gospel seems to teach there is such a thing as an invalid faith--it's not mainly whether people can or can't fall away (though I was entertaining that tangent with @marks, we had started that convo based on the original topic).

Do you believe saving faith originates from you?

 

[Waiting on him]

Lots of misunderstandings and misattributions, but I will skip all of that, and zero in on the issue of faith in John's Gospel: I never said the crowd had faith, so that's a straw man if you're attacking that argument (also, it would show you didn't read the OP carefully).

Also, briefly, you're mistranslating Gal 5:22, which says "faithfulness" (same Greek word as "faith") is a fruit of the Spirit. Also, "the things of God are folly to carnal men" was a statement made to the believers in Corinth, so, since those carnal men could hear and believe the Gospel, "the things of God" does not refer to that--indeed, in context, it's obvious it doesn't refer to the Gospel, but to "spiritual wisdom that the spiritually mature speak among themselves" 1 Co 2:6+ (as if, together with your mistranslation of Gal 5:22, this meant that a person has to be born again in order to believe the Gospel). The "things of God" that would have been "foolishness" to the Corinthians was the "spiritual wisdom" only the mature are able to appraise--it has nothing to do with the Gospel, which the Corinthians had already heard and believed, so, again, no, these things are nowhere near the "proof" you think they are.

And let's not go in that direction--that is not the topic of this thread, and I don't want to get into it.

Maybe it would be easier to make a list of all who had saving faith prior to Pentecost?

 

[GracePeace]

I believe the miscommunication we are having is due to the fact that I believe saving faith is the power of God. I do not believe it is something that originates from me.

Keep in mind that when Peter penned this letter he had been gifted with the Holy Spirit for some years, and I’m almost certain he would have remembered his faithless endeavors prior to Pentecost?

This is a misattribution. I never said or thought that man saves himself by his own faith, but God reveals Himself to man, and He is the object of faith, and without Him revealing Himself, no amount of "faith" can save.

 

[GracePeace]

Do you believe saving faith originates from you?

Nope.

 

[GracePeace]

Maybe it would be easier to make a list of all who had saving faith prior to Pentecost?

Maybe you should make a post about that, since I don't care about that topic (the topic I care about discussing is the one I keep asking you to stay on) and never asked about it?

 

[GracePeace]

Maybe it would be easier to make a list of all who had saving faith prior to Pentecost?

If you don't choose to get on topic here pretty soon, instead of asking all these irrelevant questions you're interested in, as if this were your thread and your topic, I'm going to go ahead and put you on ignore.

 

[Johann]

I wouldn't want to hide the truth that I see in Scripture, so I thought it was interesting that, though James 2 obviously isn't talking about this, the concept does seem to exist in Scripture. I like to challenge myself, so, though I know it could be used as "ammunition" against my views, I thought it would be interesting to see what happened if I shared it. "He who waters others will himself be watered"--maybe by helping others, I, myself, will be helped, will be given more understanding.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

The religious Jews were offended that salvation suddenly became so easy without works, and that their religious traditions were no longer useful at determining who could be counted “righteous” and who was not.

To the religious Jews the death of the
Messiah was a sign of weakness, not a
sign of power. Yet, to us which are saved
it is the power of God and the wisdom of
God (1 Cor 1:24).

It is only through the preaching of the
cross that our works are removed from
salvation so that no flesh should glory in
his presence (1 Cor 1:29).

Instead of the glory being in us, the
glory is firmly placed in Lord Jesus Christ
alone, and what he was made for us by
Without the Cross the Gospel is Vain

The preaching of the cross is the power
of the gospel of the grace of God.

By the cross of Christ God is able to
take wicked, sinful, enemies and offer
them free justification through faith (Rom
3:24, 5:1).

By the preaching of the cross we are delivered from the bondage of the law (Col
2:14, Gal 5:11)

Through the blood of Christ’s cross we
are reconciled to God and have peace
with him (Col 1:20, Rom 5:1, 2 Cor 5:19).

We receive forgiveness and redemption
by the blood shed there (Eph 1:7).

The preaching of the cross procures
eternal life to all who would trust solely
in its atoning work (Eph 1:13).

The preaching of the gospel would be
vain without the preaching of the cross (1
Cor 15:14). It is for this reason that the
preaching of the cross is foolishness to
those who perish.


The one who we call Saviour was crucified. There is no glory to man on earth to
be crucified.

Replacing religious works, the law, special days, and baptism with the cross requires a complete faith that Christ did
everything necessary for salvation and is
offering it all graciously to those who
work not (Rom 4:5).


It is foolish to the world not to offer
their works to God. It is foolish to the
world to claim that one young man dead
on a cross is the answer to the world’s
problems.

To the religious Jews the death of the
Messiah was a sign of weakness, not a
sign of power. Yet, to us which are saved
it is the power of God and the wisdom of
God (1 Cor 1:24).

It is only through the preaching of the
cross that our works are removed from
salvation so that no flesh should glory in
his presence (1 Cor 1:29).

Instead of the glory being in us, the
glory is firmly placed in Lord Jesus Christ
alone, and what he was made for us by.

I know you want to "hone" in on dead or vain faith in John 2-many followed Messiah for the bread and the fish-but many also had faith in Messiah-for He came unto His own [the Jews] and they did not welcome Him.

 

[BarneyFife]

No it's not nonsensical. It's true. Everyone here thinks faith is a form of belief. Couldn't be further from the truth.

Oh, great. Another "I, alone" preacher. Welcome to the forum, anyway.


.

 

[GracePeace]

Can the born again become unborn again?

No.

Much love!

If we stuck strictly to John's teachings, I could easily be led to believe that, no, the saved could not become unsaved, the regenerate could not become unregenerate (not even in the sense that someone could fall away--thus, being blotted out, their being forgotten rendering them effectively "never having been saved").

 

[Ritajanice]

In the same way that repentance is granted by God (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25), faith is also a supernatural gift of God. Ephesians 2:8–9 affirms this: “By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Being a "disciple" is not the same as being Born again.

You can be a Disciple and not be a Christian.

However, you can't be born again, and not be a Christian.

See, being Born again, is the only real proof you are a Son/Daughter of God.

Reader.. GOD is not looking for Disciples...>He's looking for BELIEVERS.

Be sure you understand that reality/distinction.

Disciples can go to Hell.
Real Born again = Believers..... never will.

And your biblical proof for this is?????

one can be a believer but not a disciple. But one cannot be a disciple without being a believer first. God is looking for disciples, those who have forsaken all to follow Jesus- that is what disciples are and do.

BTW When will you defend your allegation that the five points of Calvinism are supposedly demonic? I ahve been asking you in five threads now and will continue to ask in all threads until you answer. Honor and integrity and Scripture should be compelling you to answer with Scripture instead of making an allegation and then slinking away without giving proof for your allegations and accusations.

 

[GracePeace]

And your biblical proof for this is?????

one can be a believer but not a disciple. But one cannot be a disciple without being a believer first. God is looking for disciples, those who have forsaken all to follow Jesus- that is what disciples are and do.

BTW When will you defend your allegation that the five points of Calvinism are supposedly demonic? I ahve been asking you in five threads now and will continue to ask in all threads until you answer. Honor and integrity and Scripture should be compelling you to answer with Scripture instead of making an allegation and then slinking away without giving proof for your allegations and accusations.

Please don't engage in off topic debate. I didn't bother responding to them bc I realized, after discussion with them, that their brain is broken, so, yes, the post they made is there, but it is best to leave it uninteracted with.

 

[marks]

If we stuck strictly to John's teachings, I could easily be led to believe that, no, the saved could not become unsaved, the regenerate could not become unregenerate (not even in the sense that someone could fall away--thus, being blotted out, their being forgotten rendering them effectively "never having been saved").

Do you think "John's teachings" are contradictory to other teachings in the Bible? I don't.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Do you think "John's teachings" are contradictory to other teachings in the Bible? I don't.

Much love!

Even if they really were (I actually reconcile them with the other Scriptures), I wouldn't care. I'd accept it.

We know Peter held to beliefs that were not in line with the Gospel--he and the Jewish Christians were shocked that Gentiles could be saved at all.
So, we have this precedent that, as time went on, a better understanding of the Gospel developed.

John was old, Spirit-formed, Gospel-formed, by the time he wrote. He'd had a lot of time for God to develop his Gospel.

 

[marks]

Maybe it would be easier to make a list of all who had saving faith prior to Pentecost?

It's good to recognize the differenced before and after Jesus's death, before and after His resurrection, and before and after Pentacost.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We know Peter held to beliefs that were not in line with the Gospel--he and the Jewish Christians were shocked that Gentiles could be saved at all.
So, we have this precedent that, as time went on, a better understanding of the Gospel developed.

You aren't suggesting they had erroneous beliefs which made their way into the Bible, are you? The later books of the Bible are more accurate?

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

You aren't suggesting they had erroneous beliefs which made their way into the Bible, are you? The later books of the Bible are more accurate?

Much love!

Just spitballing, but was Peter NOT an Apostle when he was going around keeping and teaching the dietary Law was to be kept and teaching that salvation was only for Jews? Also, you could (and Calvinists/Monergists, I believe, do) argue that all of the warnings are just God's means whereby He keeps His "elect".

 

[GracePeace]

You aren't suggesting they had erroneous beliefs which made their way into the Bible, are you? The later books of the Bible are more accurate?

Much love!

I'm just saying that we have the precedent that inaccuracies, unintentionally, were propagated by the chief Apostle, and God didn't correct him for a long time, so why would we not allow that John, the eldest (upon writing), and obviously most Christ-centric, had more time to receive correction, and had/has a more accurate/edifying Grace-pointed message? His Gospel actually sounds Monergist.