Faith: True and False
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You've been in it. And I appreciate your clarity. You must know by now I don't agree, and some of my reasoning why.
No worries!
Much love!
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Maybe what you have in your op is what’s referred to as a false dilemma fallacy?
I really wanted to discuss "true and false faith in John", and I only included James 2 as a preface.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
That is not the topic. I'm not trying to identify the children of God, just discussing the fact that, indeed, there does seem to be this category of invalid faith taught in Scripture (as, before, I hadn't seen evidence of it), and "playing devil's advocate" with some of the passages that seem to be intended to have continuity with that doctrine (I am not a Monergist).
LOL! Yeah, I do believe the regenerate can lose regeneration (that's what it would mean for someone who is saved to lose salvation)--I don't want to start bringing all those verses up--but, nevertheless, the regenerate cannot lose regeneration!
Zachariah.
Active Member
Did you read my post about faith on the previous page? I put it there so people could read it and understand it properly.
Zachariah.
Active Member
Zachariah.
Active Member
Ok well before I just copy and past scripture I'll let you know I'll be using the instance where Jesus Walks On Water. I don't need to past that story here, everyone should know it.
The main symbol of this story is water. If you dont understand the symboligy of water you will never understand what it means to walk on it (no its not litteral, what would that teach us).
Water is a symbol of death, and in this case, spiritual death or deathly feelings within our psyche. This is why when we get baptised, we go in the water, then out of it to symbolise the death of the old life and the birth of the new. Under water symbolizing the death, coming out of the water symbolizing new life or birth.
Have you ever wondered why we cry water when we experience loss or death? Hmm...
Think about some sayings like, "I'm drowning with sorrow", "im feelung blue", "I'm just trying to keep my head above the water". These are all references to depression, grief, shame, guilt etc. This is what is known as spiritual death, or... feeling self conscious.
"Let the dead bury the dead" - Matt 8:22
Meaning... those who are greaved should bury the person they are greaving for.
When we sin we suffer the consequence of God's judgment, so, like in the garden of eden...
"Adam and Eve will surely taste death"... or whatever it said.
This means that at some stage after sin we will experience the consequences of remorse and repentance. Spiritual death.
Now... imagine you are dancing in front of 100's of people... humiliating right? Now imagine what it feels like to conquer those fears and transcend your self-consiousness. Being able to fully let go and dance around like you where a kid again. This is faith. It has nothing to do with belief and has everything to do with LETTING GO. Who knows, maybe one day we will need to let go of some of these beliefs that we hold?
Faith is also about letting go of things we cannot control. It is a spiritual thing, not a construct in our mind (like belief).
Another good example is when Jesus turns the water into wine. This, like most of the stories in the bible, symbolises resserection. From water to wine, from death to life, FROM SHAME TO GLORY!
God bless.
Living water? Hmm....
These are some interesting thoughts and descriptions, and I think you capture some of the feeling of what faith is.
The Bible calls faith "the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen".
Hope, Scripturally, is the expected outcome of faith. This is the say, I believe Jesus, and Jesus promised resurrection if I believe in Him, and so because I believe in Him, I'm expecting to be resurrected.
That certainty inside that I will be resurrected is my faith in Jesus producing that expectation. The fact that I have this certainty is evidence that what I'm certain of is real. My certainty matches the Bible's promise, and shows my relationship to God.
1 Peter 1:3-5 KJV
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Here, faith is the keeping power of God in us, as He is preserving us for the salvation that is yet to be revealed.
I really like the way you present the walking on water as a picture of faith. One of the reasons I really like what you've written is that you bring out that faith is not primarily a head knowledge about something, but it's the reliance that transcends fear.
I'm not going to say it's not faith when I choose what I know God wants, even though I know, if He doesn't come through, I'm going to sink like a rock! And I still step out of the boat. That's still faith, maybe Peter was that way, that first toe touch testing the water to make sure it's firm, I don't know.
Or maybe he was more like I think of faith, Just looking at Jesus, no thought towards the water, or the storm, or whether he might sink. Just to walk on the water with the same confidence and diffidence as walking on the sidewalk.
For me, this faith is based entirely in belief. I believe the Bible, and therefore I live freely in God's grace. This reminds me of a song I like,
Step out of the shadows, step out of the grave
Break into the wild and don't be afraid
Run into wide open spaces, grace is waiting for you
Dance like the weight has been lifted, grace is waiting
Where the Spirit of the Lord is
There is freedom, there is freedom
"Freedom", Jesus Culture
It's because I believe His promise that I can run the race without any weights or entanglements.
(full disclosure, I'm not the guy who always is living this, but much much more than I was . . .)
I've got to run, back tomorrow, Lord willing!
Much love!
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Okay, I did go back and reread your original statement. I assumed that you knew that the saving faith that comes from God is of the fruit of the spirit.
I didn’t realize that you were from the perspective that is is the faith of man that brings salvation, which is stated as a work of God. With the born of God there will be faith accompanied with good words also a product of the spirit.
This is what James is saying to the twelve tribes, if you indeed had these spiritual gifts, it would be impossible for you to deny us welfare as you see we are starving.
In the account of John where Jesus is speaking to the crowd the following morning no one had yet been gifted with the Holy Spirit. They were only there for breakfast seeing he’d just fed them the night before. There was no saving faith in that crowd.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
— Galatians 5:22
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Faith itself is a good work, and we are called and ordained by the Lord walk in good works.
1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith..
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The real terror is the Lord not allowing some in to Heaven since Jesus did say "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER" (Matthew 7:21).
Jesus also said thru the Apostle James to "be ye DOERS OF THE WORD, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (James 1:22)
The Lord expects His people to DO some stuff after getting born again... in fact, getting born again requires some good work on our part which of course the Lord empowers us to do... but we have to make the decision to either submit to Him or not to submit to him.
Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
If it were by faith alone and no action is required on our part... then Jesus would not have said “let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me” in Luke 9:23.
Only living faith saves, since faith without works is dead... faith alone is not saving faith because there's no good fruit being produced by that faith because it is dead as in the person is not acting like their faith is true and real. Folks that believe this are deceived according to James 1:22 which tells us to “doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves”.
God does not accept dead faith as that faith is no better than the devil’s faith! (James 2:19)
1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
Philippians 4:13 tells us "I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me" so this agrees with John 15 that the Lord is the One bearing good fruit thru us IF we are co laborers with the Lord and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us (Romans 8:14) and IF we allow the Holy Spirit to live in us (Romans 8:9)
Matthew 7:18,19
A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Reckon Jesus didn't get the memo from the so called reformers that salvation is by faith only??? (see James 2:14-26)
The Lord says the following thru the Apostle James:
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 1:21,22
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (walking after the flesh – see Gal 6:7,8), and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Apparently one is justified by faith AND by works.... and the man that believes justification is by faith only is a "vain" man.
Sounds like either Jesus is wrong or the so called reformers are wrong since they teach an partial truth and leave the part out about works leaving the door open to sinful living (license to sin).
Martin Luther was a known drunk so I can see how he would want to leave the part about works out so he could continue drinking his beloved booze which is living in sin! (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-13)
Quite the quandary here... who shall we say is in error the Lord or the reformers??? That tis the question!
I'm going with the reformers as the ones being in error!
Lots of misunderstandings and misattributions, but I will skip all of that, and zero in on the issue of faith in John's Gospel: I never said the crowd had faith, so that's a straw man if you're attacking that argument (also, it would show you didn't read the OP carefully).
Also, briefly, you're mistranslating Gal 5:22, which says "faithfulness" (same Greek word as "faith") is a fruit of the Spirit. Also, "the things of God are folly to carnal men" was a statement made to the believers in Corinth, so, since those carnal men could hear and believe the Gospel, "the things of God" does not refer to that--indeed, in context, it's obvious it doesn't refer to the Gospel, but to "spiritual wisdom that the spiritually mature speak among themselves" 1 Co 2:6+ (as if, together with your mistranslation of Gal 5:22, this meant that a person has to be born again in order to believe the Gospel). The "things of God" that would have been "foolishness" to the Corinthians was the "spiritual wisdom" only the mature are able to appraise--it has nothing to do with the Gospel, which the Corinthians had already heard and believed, so, again, no, these things are nowhere near the "proof" you think they are.
And let's not go in that direction--that is not the topic of this thread, and I don't want to get into it.
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This is not addressing the topic. If it is please clarify how it is.
I only raised James 2 as a preface--afterward, I said "Having said that..." and went on to the real topic at hand.
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