Wrangler
Well-Known Member
While he thinks he is the master, he reveals much to learn he still has.You have been defeated John
Stop trolling.
A trolling spirit is not of the body of Christ.
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While he thinks he is the master, he reveals much to learn he still has.You have been defeated John
Stop trolling.
So, men who never marry are disqualified too?God has NOT anointed any women to be elders under the New Covenant... because they are not men who are husbands of one wife as clearly taught the New Covenant. It's so clear, one has to get help to misunderstand it!
Obviously the verse in question is about polygamists being disqualified from ministry.So, men who never marry are disqualified too?
How about those who don't have any children, since that is also mentioned? In addition, those children cannot be accused of being either riotous or unruly either. So disqualify any wanting to be male elders who may be married but who have no children, or whose children have died, or who have misbehaving children - of any age even into adulthood, since Titus 1:6 doesn't really specify. If your son or daughter ever misbehaves at any time in their life, a male elder must then step down, if one is going to parse this text down to the nitty gritty details.So, men who never marry are disqualified too?
Matthew 28:19–20 (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Any hint of gender here?
So, men who never marry are disqualified too?
Well, that interpretation of 1 Tim. 3:2 would disqualify Paul himself. I suppose the logic would go something like this: "Timmy, don't let any unmarried men be church leaders. They need practice first ruling their wives successfully. That's essential. I myself have never done it, so I can't be a church leader. And yes, I did tell the Corinthians it is better to be unmarried (1 Cor. 7:7-8), so the church leaders are gong to be the second-best choices, who I advised to marry only if they can't control their passions (1 Cor. 7:9). But hey, Timmy, it'll be fun to watch flawed men leading the show. Just like Peter!"Actually... the scripture specifically says men that are the husband of one wife are the ones that can be church leaders.
if anyone has a problem with women teachers / preachers on the authority of the Holy Spirit:
then you step up and teach and preach.
WHY do some people think it's OK for women to be pastors and teachers in authority over men when God's Word is very clear that this is not God's order of His will???
Qualifications for Ministry
1 Timothy 3:1-13
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that rules well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Bishop - Strongs G1985
a superintendent, i.e. Christian officer in genitive case charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): KJV -- bishop, overseer.
Deacons - Strongs G1249
from an obsolete diako (to run on errands; compare 1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon): KJV -- deacon, minister, servant.
Titus 1:6-9
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
1 Timothy 2:12,13
I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve
Paul bases his viewpoint on creation. In v. 13 he says, "For Adam was first created, then Eve." In the least, this argument shows that Paul is not restricting his treatment to the church; it's a matter that is grounded in the constitutional differences between men and women, or at least in the order of authority that God had ordained. In Gen 2-3, we see an interesting phenomenon relevant to 1 Tim 2. God teaches man, man teaches woman, the devil is out of the picture. That's Gen 2. But in Gen 3, we see the devil teaching woman, woman teaching man, and God is out of the picture. And this is Paul's argument: there is a divinely ordained order to things that, if disturbed, would bring deception and ruin due to not following the ways of the Lord.
1 Timothy 2:12 - Almost every commentator says that women should not pastor or teach over men. The argument the Apostle Paul gives for his statement "I do not permit a women to teach or to exercise authority over a man" is found in the following 2 verses. His argument is actually not from culture as some claim but from creation. The validity of his argument and the weight of this statement plants its roots in the creation order. Which means that the statement he makes regarding women not teaching over men (essentially pastoring) stands for all-time and to all cultures everywhere, because he doesn’t appeal to culture for his reasons but the creation ORDER which is simply honoring the way God decided to create.
Other Scriptures to Consider
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1 Corinthians 11:8,9
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Genesis 2:18
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Other Thoughts
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*In the Old Testament we do not find any evidence of the Lord ever appointing or ordaining female priests to enter in to the Holy of Holies or to make sacrifices for the sins of the people. This does not mean the Lord did not use women in a supporting role because there is plenty of instances in scripture of that.
*To see the scripture references above and still hold the position that it’s OK for women to be pastors over a church and / or to be in authority over men to be allowed to teach men is to discount the authority and validity of God’s Word as though what God says is meaningless. There’s a lot of that viewpoint going around.
*If we are going to start ignoring the parts of God’s Word that aren’t popular or politically correct that makes us pleasers of men instead of pleasing God. If we’re going to do that, then why bother reading God’s Word at all? Sadly, a growing number of those claiming to be Christians are doing exactly that in these end times.
*In John 4:16-18 Jesus told the Samaritan woman to go get her husband because it is God’s order (His ways of being and doing right) for a woman to be joined unto her husband (see Gen 2:24, Matt 19:5; Mark 10:7, Eph 5:31, 1 Cor 6:16)
* 1 Corinthians 11:1-15 - These are actually fallen angels that Paul has in view in 1 Cor 11:10 in that the woman should be under authority as is God’s original order and intent when He created woman. This can partly be based on based on a Graeco-Roman culture in which the female head (and hair) could be viewed as displays of sexuality (and availability)... but is primarily a spiritual covering where man should be in authority to protect not only himself from the evil influence of fallen angels but to protect woman also.
The head covering can also be a means of maintaining order and reducing potential for lust/sexual angst within the male population (akin to forbidding micro mini skirts and low cut blouses in church now). The fallen angels were angels who fell because they had sex with the beautiful daughters of men. As such, Paul is enjoining this upon them for their own protection from these angels and from the carnal lust fallen angels seek to tempt men with.
More Thoughts
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Concerning 1 Timothy 2:8-15
Paul gave two reasons, both of them are theological not cultural.
1. The created order: Adam was first created as an independent person, then Eve was created from his rib to be his helper. She was therefore not created to be independent of the man in authority.
2. Eve, and consequently all women, were placed under a penalty of the curse. This included pain in childbearing and that her husband would rule over her.
Paul's reasoning above is that all Christian women must submit to both of these things, at least during this age while the curse is still in effect. Yes, there are lots of women who know much more than their husbands about biblical teaching. However, if she transgresses THIS teaching, by teaching publicly in the assembly, then she is TEACHING false doctrine regardless of the content of her 'message.' This is because "teaching" is not only oral. There is a kind of 'teaching' that is by example, which is what she is supposed to be doing instead of teaching orally. She might be making great theological points with her words.
But there is one glaring point that she is making that completely undermines everything that is coming out of her mouth -- by her actions she is transgressing the biblical teaching regarding the role of Christian women by her public display of blatant insubordination to the commandments of Scripture. Notice in the above passage that these instructions immediately follow specific instructions on how Christian women are to dress and adorn themselves.
This EXAMPLE of CONDUCT is how godly Christian women are to make a statement. A women 'pastor' or other 'teacher' in the assembly by her conduct is no different than if a Christian woman came to the assembly immodestly in her underwear. It is a window into her character. She is not doing "what is proper for a woman professing godliness."
How does this reconcile with Deborah in Judges 4-5?
Even while Deborah was a "prophetess" (God spoke through her and people consulted her for advice) and she held a civil office, the office of the priesthood was reserved for males of the tribe of Levi exclusively. God is able to use whomever He chooses whenever He wishes, and on occasion He breaks with the "norms" in situations where those norms become unworkable. However, man is bound by His commandments when it comes to holding offices (like OT priests or NT elders/pastors). And while there may be an occasional exception to the rule, we should not make the mistake of making an exception the rule while discarding the actual commandment. This is unfortunately what many in the Charismatic movement have done.
A woman who is called to leadership is known as a 'shepherdess' thus clearly denoting the female gender.
i personally do not believe in women as pastorettes but God can do as He pleases.I'd like to see chapter and verse for 'shepherdess' since women are not pastors.
Phoebe was undoubtedly a deacon. Women were serving as such in the early church. Yet we have the instruction in 1 Tim. 3:12 for male deacons to be the husbands of one wife. Therefore, this proscription against polygamy for male deacons did not prove women could not be deacons.I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.
Women serving in the Body of Christ = YESPhoebe was undoubtedly a deacon. Women were serving as such in the early church. Yet we have the instruction in 1 Tim. 3:12 for male deacons to be the husbands of one wife. Therefore, this proscription against polygamy for male deacons did not prove women could not be deacons.
In the same way, the instruction in 1 Tim. 3:2 for male overseers to be the husband of one wife also does not prove women could not be an overseer. And to be precise, 1 Tim. 3:1 is not gender specific for those seeking the role of an overseer. It reads "If anyone desires eldership..."
The same requirement stipulated for the women serving in these roles was given in 1 Timothy 3:11. "In the same way, the women must be dignified, not slanderers, but temperate and faithful in all things."
[to be] pastorsPhoebe was undoubtedly a deacon. Women were serving as such in the early church. Yet we have the instruction in 1 Tim. 3:12 for male deacons to be the husbands of one wife. Therefore, this proscription against polygamy for male deacons did not prove women could not be deacons.
In the same way, the instruction in 1 Tim. 3:2 for male overseers to be the husband of one wife also does not prove women could not be an overseer. And to be precise, 1 Tim. 3:1 is not gender specific for those seeking the role of an overseer. It reads "If anyone desires eldership..."
The same requirement stipulated for the women serving in these roles was given in 1 Timothy 3:11. "In the same way, the women must be dignified, not slanderers, but temperate and faithful in all things."
Phoebe was undoubtedly a deacon. Women were serving as such in the early church. Yet we have the instruction in 1 Tim. 3:12 for male deacons to be the husbands of one wife. Therefore, this proscription against polygamy for male deacons did not prove women could not be deacons.
In the same way, the instruction in 1 Tim. 3:2 for male overseers to be the husband of one wife also does not prove women could not be an overseer. And to be precise, 1 Tim. 3:1 is not gender specific for those seeking the role of an overseer. It reads "If anyone desires eldership..."
The same requirement stipulated for the women serving in these roles was given in 1 Timothy 3:11. "In the same way, the women must be dignified, not slanderers, but temperate and faithful in all things."
i personally do not believe in women as pastorettes but God can do as He pleases.
Deborah, the only female judge in the Bible, excelled in multiple areas.
Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.
Women as Deacons = YES
Well, no man or woman at all was labeled as a pastor by name in the NT. Pastoring (a verb) is the act of shepherding a flock. To pastor is to shepherd. Shepherding is not a strictly male occupation. Christ promised that whoever overcame and kept His works to the end would be given power over the nations to shepherd them with a rod of iron. Nothing really gender specific here in Revelation 2:26-27.Women as Pastors(male gender) = NO
The reason there are women as pastors today is part of the satanic gender neutral agenda.
They are the three group bodily resurrection events which God scheduled to match the three formerly-required harvest feasts of Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles. Attendance required. Two of these group resurrections have already occurred at Passover in AD 33 and Pentecost day in AD 70. We today are waiting on the third group resurrection event to take place at the time of year the FOT would have ordinarily been celebrated (the reason for the emphasis on the FOT in Zech. 14:16-19, after Christ's return to the Mt. of Olives in AD 70).What are the 3 Resurrections?