Women Pastors / Teachers
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Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Yeah but I believe that's the intention behind Timothy's epistle. Women shouldn't be the leader in the church.
But women are also told to teach their children. So it's not all teaching right?
Jer 9:20
Yet hear the word of the LORD, O ye women, and let your ear receive the word of his mouth, and teach your daughters wailing, and every one her neighbour lamentation.
That's not very positive.. wailing and lamenting.. can you imagine coming home from a hard days work to a house full of women wailing?
lol
nvmd..
Tit 2:1
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
Tit 2:2
That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
Tit 2:3
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4
That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5
To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
I think I pretty much said the same thing.
Hello Johann!
Good to see you
Hugs
Johann
Well-Known Member
Likewise @Ziggy-glad to see you are still around.Yeah but I believe that's the intention behind Timothy's epistle. Women shouldn't be the leader in the church.
But women are also told to teach their children. So it's not all teaching right?
Jer 9:20
Yet hear the word of the LORD, O ye women, and let your ear receive the word of his mouth, and teach your daughters wailing, and every one her neighbour lamentation.
That's not very positive.. wailing and lamenting.. can you imagine coming home from a hard days work to a house full of women wailing?
lol
nvmd..
Tit 2:1
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
Tit 2:2
That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
Tit 2:3
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4
That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5
To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
I think I pretty much said the same thing.
Hello Johann!
Good to see you
Hugs
Agree as to your post.
Shalom sister.
J.
That's really hard for me to swallow after hearing one particular woman preach. She is just phenomenal in delivering sermons. An ordained Episcopal priest, graduate of Harvard Divinity School, the whole nine yards. As good or better than any man I have heard, and everyone who has heard her sermons tells me the same.
(I suppose I could be a little biased. She is my wife.)
Johann
Well-Known Member
It's worse for me than for the rest of the congregation because we are married -- and because I think that relationship was what 1 Tim. 2:12 was really concerned with: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” The word γυναικὶ used in this verse can be translated either as “woman” or as “wife” – the proper meaning being a matter of the passage’s context. No one would doubt for example, that γυναικὶ should be translated as “wife” in Matt. 19:5, or in 1 Cor. 7:3, 14, 27 and 33. So should it be in 1 Tim. 2:12, according to Luther: “Here we properly take ‘woman’ to mean ‘wife,’ as he reveals from his correlative phrase (v. 12) ‘to have authority over man,’ that is, over her husband. He calls the husband ‘man,’ so he calls the wife ‘woman.’ Where men and women have been joined together, there the men, not the women, ought to have authority. . . . He wants to save the order preserved by the world—that a man be the head of a woman, as 1 Corinthians 11:3 tells us.” Martin Luther, Lectures on 1 Timothy, found in Luther’s Works, vol. 28, Hilton C. Oswald ed. (Concordia, 1973), 276–77.
There is a contextual reason to translate γυναικὶ as “wife” here as well. Reading verses 8 through 14 together discloses that silence is not commanded upon women generally, since v. 9 speaks about how women should dress modestly, apparently while praying with men in public. A command that “women” should be silent a few verses later just makes little sense – but if it is “wives” being referred to a few verses later, then the entirety of the passage can be more easily saved from inconsistency. I prefer interpretations where the writer doesn’t contradict himself in the space of six verses!
Not that this helps me as her husband! But it is food for thought for everyone else when considering First Timothy.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Listen to the sermon brother-you and I both know there is a huge problem with feminism--here is a SHORT clip.
I am in full agreement with Voddie brother-we cannot compromise on the Scriptures to suit our culture-
Shalom.
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
1Ti_2:12
permit -- When the NT uses this word, it always refers to what a figure in authority allows (or prohibits). As an apostle (see 1Ti_2:7), Paul fits this description. The first-person form (“I do not”) makes sense as Paul pens these personal reminders to Timothy.
teach -- Paul used a verbal form of this Greek word that is better translated: “to be a teacher.” (see Act_11:26; Act_13:1; 1Co_12:28; Eph_4:11).
cf. Philip's four virgin daughters who prophesied, or taught by inspiration, Act_21:8-9; Tit_2:3-4; They would be teaching in the realm where such was permissible, among other women and children.
teach or to exercise authority over a man -- The closest parallel to this instruction appears in 1Co_14:34-35. The context there is the church’s public gatherings.
(1) Women are not permitted to publicly teach Scripture and/or Christian doctrine to men in church (the context implies these topics), and (2) women are not permitted to exercise authority over men in church. (The reference for both “teaching” and “exercise authority” here is within the context of the assembled church.) Hence women could not serve as elders or preachers.
Women teaching other women, and women teaching children, are not in view here, and both are encouraged elsewhere (on women teaching women, cf. Tit_2:4; on women teaching children, cf. 2Ti_1:5).
The presence of the word or (Gk. oude) between “to teach” and “to exercise authority” indicates that two different activities are in view, not a single activity of “authoritative teaching.”
usurp authority -- ASV "to have dominion" the role of one who is master.
“exercise authority” represents Greek authenteo, found only here in the NT. Over 80 examples of this word exist outside the NT, however, clearly establishing that the meaning is “exercise authority” (not “usurp authority” or “abuse authority,” etc., as sometimes has been argued).
Since the role of pastor/elder/overseer is rooted in the task of teaching and exercising authority over the church, this verse would also exclude women from serving in this office (cf. 1Ti_3:2).
silence -- quietness, cf note on 1Ti_2:11. When Paul calls for the women to be quiet, he means “quiet” with respect to the teaching.
Took me a while but I've found it-pretty clear brother-but I have this feeling you would probably go your way.
Shalom
Johann.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
Paul (and God) was condemning the manner of "authentein" or overbearing teaching of men - not the act of teaching itself, or Priscilla would have been condemned elsewhere for instructing Apollos in becoming better acquainted with the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Apparently in the Diana-worshipping city of Ephesus, some women in that newly-established church were still of the mindset that women were superior to men. Paul was correcting this thinking and the manner in which the women's teaching was being done. Paul wanted them to display a spirit and attitude of calm or "quietness" ("hesychia") in their behavior (which is not the same thing as utter "silence" - "sige").
Christ did not want this overbearing authority being done by ANY of His disciples, as in Matt. 20:26-28. The Gentiles exercised this overbearing authority over others, but Christ said, "It shall NOT be so among you."
Neither men nor women are to do this "authentein" type of teaching in the assemblies.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
The realm in which any prophesying was to be done was for the edification of all in the church - not just women and children. "But the one prophesying speaks to men for edification and encouragement and consolation." (1 Cor. 14:3). No particular segregation was required for the four prophesying daughters of Philip . Any act of prophesying was to be done publicly for one and all to benefit.
No Priscilla witnessing to a man does not make her a pastor, deacon, or church leader.
ALL are called to be witnesses... that does not make women able to be church leaders.
Church leaders are husbands of one wife... so this is speaking of men being leaders, not women.
And no a lesbian playing the part of the man in a lesbian union does not count.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
It makes her a teacher of a man. Something which you and others above have said she was not supposed to do. Yet Paul had nothing but praise written for this woman and her husband.
And you have yet to address the facts about the "elect lady" who was leading the church in 2 John, and being commended for her labors.
Johann
Well-Known Member
2Jn_1:13 The children of your elect sister greet you.
children ... sister -- 1) A reference to a literal sister; 2) The members of the church from where John was writing.
Question: Who are these children? Who is the sister?
Question: What interpretation can be given to these?
greet you -- Literally "Greet you, the children ..." This phrase comes first in the Greek.
Greet is ασπαζεται, G782, salute you, wish you well, etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
elect lady -- kyria κυρια. From ancient times opinion has been divided as to whether this letter was addressed to an anonymous noble lady named “Eclecta” or “Kyria,” or to a Christian community metaphorically identified as “the chosen lady and her children”; those differences continue yet today.
If the name of the matron is not given, it is not absurd to suppose that the dangers of the times, or family persecution, may have made it advisable that both her name and that of the writer should be withheld. The messenger would supply both deficiencies.
The term “lady” would not imply anything about her social station. Epictetus says that all women above fourteen were addressed by men in this term.
Maybe you or @marks can help me here on this "controversial text" WITHOUT resorting to opinions-right? Without playing fast and loose with Scriptures to fit your narrative the [the]-note-no Definite Article-not Pauline-and my guess is you WANT to say this "lady" was a Pastor in a Church-correct?
J.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
wow you really went there? while I do not agree with woman as pastors to demean another brother in Christ like that is unacceptable. I hope he just ignores your personal opinions and insults.
Johann
Well-Known Member
3 Resurrections
Active Member
My desires of how to interpret this passage are immaterial and do not enter into the discussion. I read 2 John 9-11 quite plainly telling this "elect lady" how she was to vet anyone wishing to join the assembly. If anyone came unto the church desiring to join in fellowship with the believers, and they did not have the doctrine of Christ, this "elect lady" was to refuse them admittance into the fellowship as members, and not even bid them God speed. This ability to either admit or reject individuals wishing to join the assembly is part of the pastoring activity involved in being an overseer of the flock.
This is only a "controversial text" if men decide to make it so in opposition to women in scripture who were serving in this role.
This is your own assumption of what characterizes the role of an overseer. It's NOT AN OFFICE. It is a servant role of ministry in order to serve as "examples to the flock" - not an exercise of personal authority over it as a "lord over God's heritage" (1 Peter 5:3). This desire to exercise authority over the congregation was a problem back in John's days also, when he mentioned "Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them..."
Johann
Well-Known Member
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I think if you look at the bigger picture, Paul speaking concerning the woman as the church as a whole,
The woman/church should not usurp the authority of her husband Christ.
Adam, head of household, listened to Eve his wife and ate from the fruit God told them not to eat.
The serpent decieved, lied, beguiled Eve. She listened to, you could say, a false prophet.
And convinced her husband to eat even though he knew better.
Why?
He ended up blaming her anyways.. the woman gave it to me and I did eat.
Why not just say, I'm not eating because God said No?
Either Adam was decieved by his own wife or he deliberately turned his back on God.
You bring that to the church today. Every one has their own form of doctrine. Some churches have a woman (Mary) or (Ellen) as the head of the church, even though they deny it. We see where their allegience stands.
So the church teaches the laity whatever doctrine is convienent.
Now we have LGBTQ Pastors teaching that you don't have to change, God loves you just the way you are. They are taking over the church.
So I'm just saying, looking at the bigger picture, which Paul seems to lean on his teaching between the husband and the wife as a mystery between Christ and the church, He may have been speaking to Timothy from different perspectives.
And in my opinion, if your church starts teaching things which goes against Christ's teaching, that's a good sign it's time to find another place to go.
Everyday Congress is in session they have an opening prayer. They have a woman pastor for the house and a male for the senate.
Sometimes they have different denominations to come in and pray. But they are praying for the congress not teaching.
I think there's a difference there. But how does that work with the separation of church and state?
I'm not biased, just old fashioned.
Hugs
The woman/church should not usurp the authority of her husband Christ.
Adam, head of household, listened to Eve his wife and ate from the fruit God told them not to eat.
The serpent decieved, lied, beguiled Eve. She listened to, you could say, a false prophet.
And convinced her husband to eat even though he knew better.
Why?
He ended up blaming her anyways.. the woman gave it to me and I did eat.
Why not just say, I'm not eating because God said No?
Either Adam was decieved by his own wife or he deliberately turned his back on God.
You bring that to the church today. Every one has their own form of doctrine. Some churches have a woman (Mary) or (Ellen) as the head of the church, even though they deny it. We see where their allegience stands.
So the church teaches the laity whatever doctrine is convienent.
Now we have LGBTQ Pastors teaching that you don't have to change, God loves you just the way you are. They are taking over the church.
So I'm just saying, looking at the bigger picture, which Paul seems to lean on his teaching between the husband and the wife as a mystery between Christ and the church, He may have been speaking to Timothy from different perspectives.
And in my opinion, if your church starts teaching things which goes against Christ's teaching, that's a good sign it's time to find another place to go.
Everyday Congress is in session they have an opening prayer. They have a woman pastor for the house and a male for the senate.
Sometimes they have different denominations to come in and pray. But they are praying for the congress not teaching.
I think there's a difference there. But how does that work with the separation of church and state?
I'm not biased, just old fashioned.
Hugs
Simply stated, there isn't much information given.
2 John 1:1 KJV
The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
The most natural reading here, to me, is that he is addressing a Christian family.
The last verse, to me, supports that thinking:
2 John 1:13 KJV
The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.
"Your elect sister", family.
Should this be understood that the woman was the gate-keeper for the church?
2 John 1:10-11 YLT
10) if any one doth come unto you, and this teaching doth not bear, receive him not into the house, and say not to him, 'Hail!'
11) for he who is saying to him, 'Hail,' hath fellowship with his evil works.
Don't let them into the house. The Apostles taught individual hospitality, this sets a limit to that. The church is not mentioned, only the house.
Much love!
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