You aren't addressing my question. Without logic, how do you know whether "the word of the LORD" in your Bible -- which got there through the decisions of men poring over competing texts-- is accurately recorded?
Is the story of Lazarus and the rich man literal?
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Have you studied math? Do you know that all mathematics is based on First-Order Logic? Do you know what a scientific thought is? Have you tried to think of one? Is planet Earth flat? Do you know what Physics is? Do you know how doctors perform diagnosis? Have you seen one?
You want to discuss Spiritual things with a Carnal Minds thoughts and logic.
That is not my interest.
Do you NOT understand?…scripture IS KNOWLEDGE…
Hear IT…and the Lord blesses with the GIFT of Faith…Hear a little, receive a little faith. Hear more, receive more faith.
It is on FAITH one freely chooses TO BELIEVE what he is hearing …. OR NOT.
It is on FAITH one freely chooses TO TRUST what he is believing….OR NOT.
It is on FAITH one freely chooses TO MAKE a COMMITMENT to the Lord God….OR NOT.
Choose to Hear….Choose to Believe…Choose to Trust….AND by the Power of the Holy Spirit “that man is BECOMING “FAVORED” of God….”Because he IS being “enlightened” (knowledgeable, believing, trusting of Gods Knowledge)….
Such Favored individuals have an Advocate to PRAY TO (Jesus), TO ASK for particular blessings and RECEIVE, as God Knows their ASKING, their RECEIVING IS good for them.
( the RESULT for that individual Receiving IS CALLED: TASTING meaning they are receiving a glimpse of the POWER of what a person in A BINDING, Forever One on One relationship WITH God…is Like….and Available for them to CHOOSE to Accept and Have.
Such Individual is given multiple “WARNINGS” in Scriptural Knowledge….to Continue their efforts…HEARING…BELIEVING…TRUSTING.
BECAUSE they ARE still vulnerable to lurking, evil spirits and cunning, and oppressive, wicked men, who hold power over them.
In other words THEY are stiLL, able to, what is called “FALL AWAY FROM FAITH”… and THUS lose their opportunity TO Receive….THE “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”…
(Ie BECOME MADE….Converted
It is the “Converted”, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, which CHANGES Everything for THAT individual…
THEY no long require an Advocate…they have authority to Pray TO God Directly.
THEY have “gained” the “Works of God” within them, Once and Forever.
THEY have “gained” the ONE THING that ONLY THEY have the authority to Receive….”which IS Gods Understanding of Gods OWN Word (of His Knowledge), expressly given them FROM God”
You can certainly use Carnal Knowledge to determine LOGICAL, likes, dislikes, problem solving, in your daily life….
Yet in ones Spiritual walk in Life, is not about logical conclusion of ones mind….RATHER spiritual conclusions in one’s HEART.
When a mans natural spirit (ie TRUTH) in his Hearts’ thoughts….BELIEVE, TRUST….AND…
“CONFESS” by his freewilll, FROM the thoughts in his HEART……
….THEN is Holy Spirit Baptism…given
….AND access to Gods Gift of Understanding available to THAT individual.
I could care less IF Jesus’ teaching was called;…A parable, a bed-time story, a fable, a whatever…
He came TO Accomplish a host of SPECIFIC things…including teaching and “OFFERING” manKIND a “WAY” to be blessed WITH:
Gods Knowledge, and Gods UNDERSTANDIG of His Knowledge…”according TO God”.
And straight up….doesn’t MATTER what Jesus’ TEACHING IS “Called”….
Jesus can NOT Lie.
If you are “understanding” Gods Word according to a man-made dictionary…you might want to Consider the Difference between….the Carnal Mind and SPIRIT.
A conversation between men on a Carnal Minded level, is one thing.
A conversation between a man and God is always on a spiritual level.
BECAUSE…
Rom. 8:
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
1 Cor
[12] Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.
Glory to God,
Taken
Carnal Minded Logic…is most appropriate BETWEEN “MEN”…
The Title of this Thread is about A SPIRITUAL topic. What is Spiritual is NOT concluded on a Logical basis.
So you have parked your brain when you entered this OP? In case you missed it, I started this OP with a logical and spiritual mind as usual. You need to stop debating in an OP by only reading the title. It is a bad habit for any human being, Christian or not. Further, as a staff member of this Christian platform, you are setting a bad example.
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MA2444
Well-Known Member
I dont think it is literal, so it's like a parable and yet even though it is a story, it speaks of literal biblical truth and biblical principles. So the events are true but those specific people are not. Just names to illustrate the story.
The lesson is, do what good you can while you are on Earth. When you die in the flesh, your record is closed. I've heard several testimonies where people said, they would give anything to be able to come back and do more for the Lord.
You've read about the Purification fires of Heaven? Well those are prolly not pleasant. So the more purification that you can do on earth is the less than you will do in heaven I think. It can be here on earth or in Heaven, take your pick.
To obey the Lord is to demonstrate that you love the Lord. He said do good deeds for all of your neighbors...I think a lot of people give and help others from their excess and not from their family sustenance. (Rich guy vs the widow's Mite). I bet you could give away every cent of your paycheck to someone in need (with joyful giving and a loving heart) and you would still not be wanting for your own family. You can't outgive God.
As strange as it sounds, the truth is that we do not need money to live on this earth.
You claimed that the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a literal story, i.e. a true story and not a parable. So yes, I do expect you to answer with evidence to support your claim that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable?
And again, why did Jesus tell this parable/story to the Pharisees? Here's a pointer to get you started - Luke 16:14-16 (WEB):
(14) The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they scoffed at him.
(15) He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts. For that which is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
(16) The law and the prophets were until John. From that time the Good News of God’s Kingdom is preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
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There is literally a story in the bible about a man --named Lazarus, who came back from the dead.
Must just be a coincidence.
I don't think @Taken understands the term claim. The sad thing about her is that she is a member of the staff whom we cannot put on ignore.
That shouldn't be a problem --if you are mature. I ignore you all the time, without clicking a button. You incessantly post silly things and start countless threads, that I ignore almost all the time. Most are simply not interesting to me.
The story of Lazarus in scripture is his telling of his near-death experience. No where in scripture is it called a parable.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
YOu are reading things in to this true account you should not.
Here is why it is literal.
1. Abrahams bosom was a well known and accepted belief in Israel. It was equated to paradise and was where the righteous dead went when they died awaiting the resurrection.
2. Yes the rich man was being tormented in the torment compartment of Hades/Sheol/Hell.
3. the gospel had not yet been preached and the righteous were still saved by faith through grace, but not by accepting the death and resurrection of Jesus. That was unknown.
4. Yes Jesus described something that had already taken place. The language is absolutely clear.
5. No parable ever mentions a person by name.
6. there is no comparative terms to make this understood it is not to be taken literally. Terms; "such as", likened unto", can be compared to", "is as" etc.
7. Jesus said "there was a man". so there was a man. No parable began with a declatory statement saying there was! So there was a man!
8. He is not making a comparison of this account to describe something else which all parables do.
This is a true account. It is not found in the midst of other parables nor does the language or understanding of the people of the day lead any credence that this is a parable and should not be taken literally.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
There is literally a story in the bible about a man --named Lazarus, who came back from the dead.
Must just be a coincidence.
I think it is a coincidence. The name, Lazarus means he who God helps. The Lazarus that rose from the dead wasn't a beggar with infirmities that sat at the city gate. But the point is made that, God helped that beggar Lazarus. He suffered for his time on earth and having dies was not being comforted.
But even if it is a parable, it still demonstrates biblical reality in teaching form. So we all have a lot to look forward to.
We know it's his actual story.... and that he told it everywhere he went-- because they wanted him dead. (again).
It was a story so much in their face and against their understanding of things, that they wanted to kill him to prevent him from telling it. It was one of the last events to take place before that last supper and the earnest efforts to actually kill Jesus. They wanted to kill Lazarus too.
John 12--
Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.
It was a story so much in their face and against their understanding of things, that they wanted to kill him to prevent him from telling it. It was one of the last events to take place before that last supper and the earnest efforts to actually kill Jesus. They wanted to kill Lazarus too.
John 12--
Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.
I said yes it is a Parable.
I said yes it is true.
No, you are in error, I did NOT say it was not a Parable.
No, I am not obliged to answer for what YOU SAY FOR ME, which I did NOT SAY!
You OBVIOUSLY do not comprehend a Difference between the process of a man’s Carnal Mind and a man’s spirit thoughts.
That is the SAME difference that which divides a man:
OF the world FROM a man IN the world….
OF an unsaved man FROM a converted man
OF a Carnal Minded man FROM a spiritual man.
OF “them” and ‘we”…
And? So, nothing new, Jesus talking about “THEM”. They didn’t get it either.
Don’t be coy, and stop trying to speak for me. I have expressly stated my position, my belief, AND it’s basis, covering both the logical carnal mind and the spirit of man, according to Scripture.
What I can NOT do, is “read, believe, understand For YOU.”
Why would I want to speak for you? In case you missed it, I was speaking against you.
Have you not done the following:
1. making fun of people's questions instead of answering them,
2. making accusations instead of answers,
3. reading only the title and not the content of the OP when answering
4. answering with a "no" and nothing else, not providing any support of evidence?
These are not proper debate behavior for any human society. Being a staff member of this website, you are setting a bad example for all to see.
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If you want to DEBATE Carnal Knowledge regarding What Jesus said….the debate is moot.
I addressed your Logical Understanding of Carnal Knowledge.
I addressed Spiritual Understanding of Gods Knowledge.
If you do not comprehend the difference, I suspect you are trying to present a Logical Carnal debate regarding a Spiritual topic.
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