Is the story of Lazarus and the rich man literal?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
1,550
414
83
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
The man is named. His name is Lazarus. And there just happens to be a parallel story that no one thinks of as a parable, of an actual man by the name of Lazarus who died, and came back to life. --Which kind of destroys your argument about the dead remaining dead, don't you think?
No, I don't think it destroys my argument. My argument was that the parable gives no indication of a resuscitation to life again, so it is not talking of a near death experience. The Dictionary.com definition of a near death experience is:

a sensation or vision, as of the afterlife, reported by a person who has come close to death.​

yourdictionary.com defines it as:

A set of experiences reportedly felt by many persons who were near death and subsequently resuscitated, typically involving, variously, a feeling of out-of-body awareness, a bright light, a blissful vision of an afterlife, etc.​

The real Lazarus was a friend of Jesus and his disciples, and the brother of Martha and Mary, the Mary who had anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair (John 11:2). He was not a beggar. He became sick and died, and after he had been dead for four days Jesus raised him from the dead. So he did not have a near-death experience, he actually died and was dead for four days. This Lazarus was definitely a real person. Jesus continued socialising with him afterwards (briefly, becasue it was days before his crucifixion), John 12:1-2 (WEB):

(1) Then six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, who had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.​
(2) So they made him a supper there. Martha served, but Lazarus was one of those who sat at the table with him.

The parable that Jesus told was about a rich man and a beggar - it is not a parallel story, it's a parable. The rich man represented the Jewish nation, who had been helped by God for thousands of years. However, since Jesus' ministry started (after John the Baptist had died), things were changing; Jesus said, Luke 16:16 (WEB):

(16) The law and the prophets were until John. From that time the Good News of God’s Kingdom is preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.​

In the parable the beggar represented all those whom God was now helping, both Jews and Gentiles. To emphasise that the beggar represented those whom God was now helping, Jesus gave the beggar in the parable the name Lazarus, which means "whom God helps". In the parable both the rich man and the beggar (Lazarus) died, and neither of them is raised from the dead, so neither of them have a near death experience; they have a real death experience!

The parable is completely figurative and not based on reality. I'm guessing you haven't followed the link in my previous post to a longer description of the meaning of the parable (Lazarus parable), so here's a brief extract (the first two paragraphs):

It is evident from the whole setting of this passage that it is a parable.​
Otherwise the logical lesson to be drawn from it is that unless we are poor​
beggars, full of sores, we will never enter eternal bliss; and that future​
torment will be our portion if we happen to wear fine linen and purple and fare​
sumptuously every day. And, if taken literally, those who are poor are taken,​
not to heaven, but to Abraham's bosom. However, the context of this passage​
shows that Christ in this parable was teaching a great dispensational truth,​
namely, the change of favor from the Mosaic Law Covenant to the Covenant of​
faith. (Luke 16:16-18; Galatians 3:6-29) If you read carefully the 32nd​
chapter of Deuteronomy, you will see that Jesus was merely repeating in vivid​
pictorial language what Moses had already said. See particularly verses 20 to​
29; and also Paul's quotation of the 21st verse in Romans 10:19, where he shows​
that Moses' prophecy referred to the overthrow of Israel consequent upon Jesus'​
rejection of that nation.​
Jesus was evidently drawing upon something that was in the real world, the​
apostate Jewish belief which blended the Grecian philosophies into the Bible.​
The Jewish leaders knew of these beliefs and it was the Jewish leaders that he​
was addressing. He used their own beliefs, not to condone their apostate​
beliefs, but to illustrate the change he had just spoken of: "The law and the​
prophets were until John." -- Luke 16:16.​

Except it does.
No, the parable story does not say that Lazarus came back to life again. Quote the verse if you believe it does.

You just think that there are two different men named Lazarus and that it's all a big, fat coincidence that scripture would contain two stories of a man named Lazarus who dies and later tells about his experience.
No, I think there is one account of a man named Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from the dead., and Jesus told a parable in which he gave the name of Lazarus to one of the men in the parable, to help make a point (because of the meaning of the name). You are making the mistake of trying to make the person in the parable the same as the real person who Jesus knew. They are clearly not the same person - Lazarus, the brother of Martha and Mary, weas not a beggar covered in sores. You're twisting the Scriptures in ways that they're not intended to be twisted!

It would also be unusual for Jesus to make up a fictional story and insert a fictional name for a main character to purposely create confusion... unless you think of Jesus as some sort of deceiver.
Why would anyone assume that Jesus added the name Lazarus in order to create confusion? That's a stupid assumption to make! Jesus made up many fictional stories, e.g. the parable of the prodigal son, the parable of the rich fool (Luke 12:15-21). In the rich man and Lazarus parable he added the name Lazarus to make the parable clearer.

Instead of feeding on the milk of Christianity, feed on the meat - delve deeper into the meaning, and stop making naive assumptions.
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: Mr E

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,573
12,984
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A parable is not literally true. If a story is literally true then it is not a parable, by definiton. You're confused and confusing people again!

Thank you for your common Carnal Minded definition, but you should have understood, I am well aware of the common Carnal Minded definition of Parable.

You should be aware, conversations and understanding when regarding SPIRITUAL things, “you know”….um God IS SPIRIT…and conversations and understanding “according” to God, are “NOT” dependent upon Carnal Minded, Carnal Understanding creations of God.

The Lord God…”CAN NOT LIE”…
He revealing ANYTHING to manKIND, is WHOLLY TRUE, regardless of “WHAT” His manner of “delivery” is CALLED!


Thee is only one correct understanding of words. If words could have any meaning that we want, then the language is useless to us.

Disagree. And Spiritual words that men in general can not understand it’s spiritual meaning, HAVE another set of words they use to describe their lack of “spiritual understanding”….such as “allegory, story, myth, moral point, blah, blah.”

Show me ANYWHERE, Jesus’ speaking, teaching….is taught He can LIE…
 

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
1,550
414
83
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Thank you for your common Carnal Minded definition, but you should have understood, I am well aware of the common Carnal Minded definition of Parable.
It doesn't appear that you understand it!

You should be aware, conversations and understanding when regarding SPIRITUAL things, “you know”….um God IS SPIRIT…and conversations and understanding “according” to God, are “NOT” dependent upon Carnal Minded, Carnal Understanding creations of God.
You're just confusing me again. I can't understand what you're saying!

Disagree. And Spiritual words that men in general can not understand it’s spiritual meaning, HAVE another set of words they use to describe their lack of “spiritual understanding”….such as “allegory, story, myth, moral point, blah, blah.”
Again, such garbled English. Spiritual words have a set of words they use? As I said previously, your communication skills seem quite poor.

Show me ANYWHERE, Jesus’ speaking, teaching….is taught He can LIE…
I'm not going to even attempt that! I have never at any point said that Jesus, or God, have lied or would ever lie. You're getting confused again. It's you who has said that whatever Jesus wrote must be true, and implied that the details of the rich man and Lazarus parable must therefore be a description of literal events and not a parable. This discussion is getting silly and fruitless, so I think we should stop! We're wasting our time.:stageright:
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,573
12,984
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A parable is a fictional story. When Jesus spoke a parable it was a made-up strory, not a description of events that had actually happened.

Disagree.

Col 1 … same hope for you…
[9] For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Glory to God,
Taken
 

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
1,550
414
83
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
A parable is a fictional story. When Jesus spoke a parable it was a made-up strory, not a description of events that had actually happened.

Disagree.
Albert Barnes' Notes (for Matthew 13:3) says:

The word “parable” is derived from a Greek word signifying “to compare together,” and denotes a similitude taken from a natural object to illustrate a spiritual or moral subject. It is a narrative of some fictitious or real event, in order to illustrate more clearly some truth that the speaker wished to communicate. In early ages it was much used. Pagan writers, as Aesop, often employed it. In the time of Christ it was in common use. The prophets had used it, and Christ employed it often in teaching his disciples. It is not necessary to suppose that the narratives were strictly true. The main thing - “the inculcation of spiritual truth” - was gained equally, whether it was true or was only a supposed case. Nor was there any dishonesty in this. It was well understood no person was deceived. The speaker was not “understood” to affirm the thing “literally narrated,” but only to fix the attention more firmly on the moral truth that he presented. The “design” of speaking in parables was the following:​
1. To convey truth in a more interesting manner to the mind, adding to the truth conveyed the beauty of a lovely image or narrative.​
2. To teach spiritual truth so as to arrest the attention of ignorant people, making an appeal to them through the “senses.”​
3. To convey some offensive truth, some pointed personal rebuke, in such a way as to bring it “home” to the conscience. Of this kind was the parable which Nathan delivered to David 2Sa_12:1-7, and many of our Saviour’s parables addressed to the Jews.​
4. To “conceal” from one part of his audience truths which he intended others should understand. Thus Christ often, by this means, delivered truths to his disciples in the presence of the Jews, which he well knew the Jews would not understand; truths pertaining to them particularly, and which he was under no obligations to explain to the Jews. See Mar_4:33; Mat_13:13-16.​
Our Saviour’s parables are distinguished above all others for clearness, purity, chasteness, importance of instruction, and simplicity. They are taken mostly from the affairs of common life, and intelligible, therefore, to all people. They contain much of “himself” - his doctrine, life, design in coming, and claims, and are therefore of importance to all people; and they are told in a style of simplicity intelligible to the child, yet instructive to people of every rank and age. In his parables, as in all his instructions, he excelled all people in the purity, importance, and sublimity of his doctrine.​
 
  • Love
Reactions: TonyChanYT

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,573
12,984
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Albert Barnes' Notes (for Matthew 13:3) says:

The word “parable” is derived from a Greek word signifying “to compare together,” and denotes a similitude taken from a natural object to illustrate a spiritual or moral subject. It is a narrative of some fictitious or real event, in order to illustrate more clearly some truth that the speaker wished to communicate. In early ages it was much used. Pagan writers, as Aesop, often employed it. In the time of Christ it was in common use. The prophets had used it, and Christ employed it often in teaching his disciples. It is not necessary to suppose that the narratives were strictly true. The main thing - “the inculcation of spiritual truth” - was gained equally, whether it was true or was only a supposed case. Nor was there any dishonesty in this. It was well understood no person was deceived. The speaker was not “understood” to affirm the thing “literally narrated,” but only to fix the attention more firmly on the moral truth that he presented. The “design” of speaking in parables was the following:​
1. To convey truth in a more interesting manner to the mind, adding to the truth conveyed the beauty of a lovely image or narrative.​
2. To teach spiritual truth so as to arrest the attention of ignorant people, making an appeal to them through the “senses.”​
3. To convey some offensive truth, some pointed personal rebuke, in such a way as to bring it “home” to the conscience. Of this kind was the parable which Nathan delivered to David 2Sa_12:1-7, and many of our Saviour’s parables addressed to the Jews.​
4. To “conceal” from one part of his audience truths which he intended others should understand. Thus Christ often, by this means, delivered truths to his disciples in the presence of the Jews, which he well knew the Jews would not understand; truths pertaining to them particularly, and which he was under no obligations to explain to the Jews. See Mar_4:33; Mat_13:13-16.​
Our Saviour’s parables are distinguished above all others for clearness, purity, chasteness, importance of instruction, and simplicity. They are taken mostly from the affairs of common life, and intelligible, therefore, to all people. They contain much of “himself” - his doctrine, life, design in coming, and claims, and are therefore of importance to all people; and they are told in a style of simplicity intelligible to the child, yet instructive to people of every rank and age. In his parables, as in all his instructions, he excelled all people in the purity, importance, and sublimity of his doctrine.​

And? What made you think some guy, named Albert Banks notes would be of interest to me? They aren’t.

So…cut to the chase…
Do you Believe Jesus spoke Fiction, which by definition is NOT the Truth…or that Jesus spoke the truth?
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,234
5,320
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I doubt it. Luke 16:


This was supposed to have happened before the resurrection of the last day and the final judgment. It does not sound literal.

Similar parables were told by rabbis around Jesus' time. Wiki:


Why was the rich man being tortured in Hades?

Because he did not listen to Moses (v. 31)?

Why was Lazarus blessed at Abraham's side?

Because he was poor?

Did Jesus describe a historical story that had transpired already?

I don't think so. It was a parable of fortune reversal.

What is the lesson of the parable?

Abraham said to the rich man:


Do good when you can before you cannot. That's the bottom line.

Fable Parable Allegory…..agreed
The moral to the story…..

The discussion would bring up some important facts. Although the story makes a good point but…..

1. If this scenario could happen it would be kinda weird.

2. If people from Heaven could see loved ones French frying in Hell it might not be a good thing.

3. Could a person hold a conversation while standing in fire?

4. Carried off to Heaven or going to Hell right after death….what about resurrection and Judgment Day?

5. The whole story line would have to be a shock to both Lazarus and the rich man because God never offered Heaven to the Jews as a reward and did not threaten them with Hell as a punishment. Subsequently the Jews did not believe in Hell then.......nor do they believe in Hell today. And they did not believe in people going to Heaven in OT....During Christ's ministry Jewish beliefs were changing --- which is another topic.

6. In this period Hell is a new belief, so new that there is actually not a word for it. The word Hell comes out around the 8th century.

Back then they used the word Hades for Hell and that was a modification of the meaning of a Greek word which was the name of a Greek god and a spirit prison….but not a lot of torture. [Being a Greek word, if you have a Bible that has Hades in the Old Testament, it is a faulty translation or worse. You might want to check for other errors.]

All in all whether it be Fable, Parable, or Allegory it has a good moral lesson.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TonyChanYT

TonyChanYT

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2023
1,725
705
113
63
Toronto
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
And? What made you think some guy, named Albert Banks notes would be of interest to me? They aren’t.
Do you read any scholarly commentary?

Note the question mark. I am not making a statement. You have a problem distinguishing between a question and a statement. Please read my question carefully and precisely. I am not asking whether you believe them or are interested in them, and I am not suggesting that you are. I am asking whether you read any of them. Be precise. Don't overgeneralize my question. Don't turn my question into a statement. Stay focus. It will improve your debate ability.
 
Last edited:

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
8,219
3,522
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

"Is the story of Lazarus and the rich man literal?"​


No reason to believe otherwise!

Rev 20 "They will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER"!
 

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
1,550
414
83
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
And? What made you think some guy, named Albert Banks notes would be of interest to me? They aren’t.
It is Albert Barnes, not Albert Banks - can't you get anything right?!

You were disagreeing with my definition of a parable. I thought that you might respect the definition from a more learned and respected person than me. Obviously I was wrong about that. More information from e-Sword Bible study software:

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Albert Barnes (1798-1870) pastored the First Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia during the middle of the nineteenth century. He was deeply involved in the social and moral issues of his day — slavery, drinking, dancing, and so on. Barnes's commentaries were more notable because they comment on every verse of the Bible, not because of his biblical scholarship, per se. These are the comments of a pastor on the passages on which he was preaching. One of the best-selling commentary sets of its time — for preachers and laypeople! Albert Barnes, with the help of James Murphy, wrote conservative verse-by-verse commentary of the KJV text. This work is dependable and profitable for personal Bible study, sermon preparation, and teaching.​

So…cut to the chase…
Do you Believe Jesus spoke Fiction, which by definition is NOT the Truth…or that Jesus spoke the truth?
Most of Jesus' parables were fiction. Fiction does not mean that it is a lie. How about these parables, are they not the truth? :

Matthew 13:24-30 (WEB):
(24) He set another parable before them, saying, “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field,​
(25) but while people slept, his enemy came and sowed darnel weeds also among the wheat, and went away.​
(26) But when the blade sprang up and produced fruit, then the darnel weeds appeared also.​
(27) The servants of the householder came and said to him, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where did these darnel weeds come from?’​
(28) “He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and gather them up?’​
(29) “But he said, ‘No, lest perhaps while you gather up the darnel weeds, you root up the wheat with them.​
(30) Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest time I will tell the reapers, “First, gather up the darnel weeds, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”​

Luke 12:16-21 (WEB):
(16) He spoke a parable to them, saying, “The ground of a certain rich man produced abundantly.​
(17) He reasoned within himself, saying, ‘What will I do, because I don’t have room to store my crops?’​
(18) He said, ‘This is what I will do. I will pull down my barns, and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.​
(19) I will tell my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years. Take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.”’​
(20) “But God said to him, ‘You foolish one, tonight your soul is required of you. The things which you have prepared—whose will they be?’​
(21) So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”​

Luke 18:9-14 (WEB):
(9) He spoke also this parable to certain people who were convinced of their own righteousness, and who despised all others.​
(10) “Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector.​
(11) The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: ‘God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortionists, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.​
(12) I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.’​
(13) But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’​
(14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”​
 
  • Like
Reactions: TonyChanYT