PAST-Millennialism

[Mr E]

The context of Matthew 16:27-28 included the return of Christ in the glory of His Father, with the angels, when He would give rewards to everyone according to their works.

Question for you: If this return in Matthew 16:27-28 was referring to Christ's resurrection, what rewards were given to every man on that occasion, according to their works? This did not happen at Christ's resurrection, so this return in Matthew 16:27-28 cannot be describing a return on Christ's resurrection day. It had to be Christ's second coming return which some of those alive during Christ's ministry would live to see happening later on in those first-century days.


The 144,000 First-fruits were not described as being in heaven before the throne of God. The 144,000 were on earth. It was only the "harpers" who were in heaven harping and singing before the throne, a song which only the 144,000 on earth could learn, because the 144,000 Jewish resurrected saints were unique in their post-resurrection experiences compared to all others.

The bodies of the 144,000 First-fruits were "redeemed out of the earth" by that physical resurrection process, and on that day, they went into Mount Zion the temple site in Jerusalem on earth with the newly-risen "Christ the First-fruits". They shared this same "First-fruits" title with Christ because they shared the same bodily resurrection process that day in AD 33. As "virgins", these resurrected individuals were neither married nor given in marriage in their bodily resurrected state, and they were immune to the licentious practices in the early church of the "doctrine of Balaam", led by the prophetess nicknamed "Jezebel" in those days.

During the 40 days when Christ remained on earth until His final ascension, these Matthew 27:52-53 group of 144,000 First-fruits saints "followed the Lamb" wherever He went. They were "without fault" and "in their mouth was found no guile" because bodily resurrected saints are in a state of sinless perfection in God's eyes.


No, I did not intend to write AD 2033 for the final third group resurrection event. I meant AD 3033, at the same time of year when the Feast of Tabernacles used to be celebrated. This is why Zechariah 14:16-19 emphasized that one single FOT harvest feast celebration to be remembered after Jerusalem's AD 70 destruction and Christ's second-coming return on that Pentecost-day occasion (the date Daniel 12:11-13 had predicted).

Those who arose as recorded in Matt 27, arose to judgment. The 144k had already (previously) been judged and found worthy to reign with Christ-- where ever he goes. They had already (previously) been redeemed from the earth. The ones on thrones (Rev 20) who sit in judgment are these. The ones they are judging are those who have been resurrected (Matt 27). But don't let me ruin a good story.

Maybe you've never been a farmer and don't have a good conceptual understanding of crops and harvests and planting and seeding. You take the firstfruits and set them aside for the next generation of planting, ensuring that there will be another harvest. The firstfruits become the seed for the next generation. It's not simple allegory. It's explanatory.

So you don't anticipate the return of Christ for another 1000 years? 3033? Eat, drink and be merry. Don't let me ruin a good party.

 

[Truthnightmare]

ALL of this is ancient history by now.

Really…

So….

Revelation 20

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Are you saying the above has happened?

If so… what year?

 

[3 Resurrections]

So you don't anticipate the return of Christ for another 1000 years? 3033? Eat, drink and be merry. Don't let me ruin a good party.

Why should a delayed return of Christ lead anyone to that bizarre conclusion? We are currently in the tumultuous transition process leading to the beginning of the last, 7th millennium beginning in AD 2033. The world as a whole I believe will pass into a fallow "Sabbath" type of millennium when things are reduced to a more basic level of existence across the board.

When God wants to produce maturity in His followers, He most often leads them through hardships to strengthen their dependence upon Him and Him alone. Our nation which was founded by taking God's name upon it needs to be taken to the woodshed for its abuse of God's blessings. You and I are getting and will get a front-row view of this happening.

Maybe you've never been a farmer and don't have a good conceptual understanding of crops and harvests and planting and seeding. You take the firstfruits and set them aside for the next generation of planting, ensuring that there will be another harvest. The firstfruits become the seed for the next generation. It's not simple allegory. It's explanatory.

I come from a farming father. But I am basing my understanding of the scriptures' concept of the "First-fruits" as the Mosaic laws did - founded upon the agricultural patterns in the land of Israel itself with its "early" and "latter" rainy seasons. The Matthew 27:52-53 group of 144,000 "First-fruits" were the fulfillment of the handful called the wave sheaf offering of "First-fruits" barley, offered in the temple at Passover along with the single he-lamb without blemish - a picture of "Christ the First-fruits". This is all laid out in Leviticus 23:10-12, and was a type picturing the Matthew 27:52-53 saints resurrected the same day as Christ our Passover Lamb arose from the dead.

 

[3 Resurrections]

So….

Revelation 20

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Are you saying the above has happened?

If so… what year?

John wrote Revelation 12:12, warning the believers of his own days that Satan "has come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth he hath but a short time". This "short time" in which Satan was then actively deceiving the nations of the world in John's days was the same as the Rev. 20:3 & 7 "little season" of time in which Satan was loosed on earth after the millennium had ended. In other words, the Rev. 20 millennium had already ended before John was writing Revelation, because the "short time" and "little season" of Satan's activity at the end of the millennium had already begun by then.

Satan occupied himself full-force in deceiving the nations in that "little season" after AD 33, leading up to the AD 66 war in Israel breaking out. The "four quarters of the earth" are the "four corners of the land" OF ISRAEL (as in Ezekiel 7:2 - "...thus saith the Lord God unto the land of ISRAEL; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land. Now is the end come upon THEE...")

"Gog" was God's nickname for the nation of ISRAEL (as Balaam's prophecy said in Numbers 24:5-9 in the LXX). The battle of Gog would involve a situation when "every man's sword shall be against his brother" (Ezekiel 38:21) in a CIVIL WAR taking place in Israel. This happened in the AD 66-70 period when the competing Zealot factions and their leaders warred with each other for the supremacy in Jerusalem.

One of those competing Zealot leaders managed to gain the upper hand with the largest number of warriors (some 40,000), and he came to Jerusalem demanding - and getting - the leadership of the city in AD 69. The collective army of Simon bar Giora (who came originally from the "north parts" of "Galilee of the nations" in the north quarter of Israel) fought the other Zealot leaders in the city to keep control of Jerusalem for about a year. The Roman army arriving in the spring of AD 70 ended up destroying Simon's army in a few months. Simon bar Giora's forces fell upon the mountains of Israel, just as Ezekiel 39 had described for the end of Gog's army. This battle of Gog is long past in AD 70, with its ancient weaponry of "horses and horsemen", and "bucklers, shields, sword and helmets, hand-staves, spears", and "bows and arrows", all of which would be salvaged and used for fuel for 7 years after that.

Don't be fooled by the "sands of the sea" metaphor in Revelation 20:8. The very same metaphor was applied to the Philistine army of 30,000 chariots in 1 Samuel 13:5.

 

[Mr E]

I come from a farming father. But I am basing my understanding of the scriptures' concept of the "First-fruits" as the Mosaic laws did - founded upon the agricultural patterns in the land of Israel itself with its "early" and "latter" rainy seasons. The Matthew 27:52-53 group of 144,000 "First-fruits" were the fulfillment of the handful called the wave sheaf offering of "First-fruits" barley, offered in the temple at Passover along with the single he-lamb without blemish - a picture of "Christ the First-fruits". This is all laid out in Leviticus 23:10-12, and was a type picturing the Matthew 27:52-53 saints resurrected the same day as Christ our Passover Lamb arose from the dead.

Yawn..... then you should know better. Don't forget your roots.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Don't forget your roots.

The "roots" of the "First-fruits" term is found in scripture's own use of the term under the Mosaic laws for OT Israel. This is what supplied the symbolism for the later fulfillment of the bodily resurrection events for the saints. Scripture is full of this "harvest" imagery for the resurrection process.

 

[PinSeeker]

I do have a point, many actually, but let’s make this abundantly clear… these things have not yet happened..

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

I understand your position. Starting with verse 7, I agree.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ghada]

Those would be unbelievers, who do not know the Redeemer.

These would be unredeemed with continued unrepented sinning.

LOL! It is what it is... LOL! There are certainly still consequences for sin; God disciplines those He loves. But even so, there is no condemnation for those in Christ, and nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Yes, I will stand on that "base" until the cows come home ~ or, until I die or until Christ returns, whichever comes first...

The great Christian hypocritical delusion of the ages is judging others condemned and justifying yourself while doing the same trespasses.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

As a sinner I despised all such Christian mockery of God's righteous judgment, and even more so now.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man is sowing, that shall he also reap. For he that is sowing to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that is sowing to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

When you try to play your non-condemnation doctrine card at the judgment, God will slap it out of your mouth before the first lying word.

Unfortunately, no. Not yet. But if they confess, and ask forgiveness in the name of Christ, and repent, then they are imputed the righteousness of Christ. And one great day, they will truly have that righteousness with Him. This is God's great promise.

God's promise is to make a whole new heart and life of Christ now, if any man repents of sinning for Jesus' sake.

Your doctrinal hope to repent not and born again from the grave, is as vain as playing your no-condemnation-for-unrepented-sinners card.

Grace and peace to you, Ghada. Especially grace, since it seems you are lacking in it ~ which is sinful, so you're actually proving my point with every post that you make here ~ at least in this conversation. But yes, grace and peace to you.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

You don't take God's words serious enough to do them. I do.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility.

You don't even take your own doctrine serious enough to separate yourself from open hereticks.

 

[Ghada]

When Christ returns, are all that are alive not changed? If so there will be no natural life through the millennium.

Your knock-off 'millennium' is by not being serious enough about the Bible to read it correctly.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Your knock-off 'millennium' is by not being serious enough about the Bible to read it correctly.

You not knowing anything of the Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Chaldee.. etc shows you’re not serious about the Bible.

 

[Ghada]

I actually don't like the term "amillennialism," as the 'a' prefix can really convey a 'not' sort of understanding,

Amil is anti-mil: not believing the Bible Millennium. Prophesying some other amount of reigning time, is not a millennial reign at all.

Such false prophets can being willingly ignorant, and call their prophecy a 'millennium', but not by any 'sort of misunderstanding'. A millennium is a thousand years.

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:

This includes changing rules of grammar and meaning of words.

as if there is no millennium at all, and that's not the case, as we would all agree.

Prophesying a sort of millennium with God is no millennium of His at all.

Neither amils nor knock-off mils are God's millennium of a thousand years.

Just as sort of repenting is unrepentance to God's way of repenting from all sinning.

Thanks to your promptings, I now see the inside connection of sort of recenters with a sort of knock off reign.

You don't take God's command to repent of all your sinning, so why take His thousand year reign of righteousness seriously?

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

You instead prophecy for yourself a sort of knock off millennial reign from a sort of knock off repentance, in order to be unconditionally saved from the second death.

See above; the millennium is indisputably a reality.

God's Bible Millennium is with His Christ and resurrected saints. Other prophesied knock offs are not. Except in the vanity of mind and spirit of unrepented wanna-be 'reigning' sinners.

The world rightly calls it delusions of grandeur.

This is no prophecy, but reality.

Ok. Your present unrighteous reigning on earth, is over a whole world that still lies in wickedness. That's how unrighteous rule begets unrighteous nations.

After God's millennium, there will be no more unrighteous rule, as there will be no more sin.

Your accusation of Jesus Christ and His resurrected saints reigning unrighteous with you now, is false.

Your prophecy is that all things will remain the same as before and after the flood, with unrighteous rulers, nations, and religious hypocrites abounding, until the end of the earth.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Jesus is not presently reigning on earth.

True. He hasn't yet come again to reign righteously upon all the earth.

And your unrighteous reigning from the air over the earth, is working accordingly.

But He is our reigning King.

While He is the reigning resurrected Lord in heaven.

He is not a reigning King personal over any stiffnecked and unrepented worker of iniquity.

Is Satan your King, Ghada?

He is the father of all stiffnecked unrepented workers of iniquity on earth.

And regarding Satan, he is "the ruler of this world"

No not ruler over the world. He is the god fo this world and prince and power of the air. His rule is limited only to stiffnecked unrepented workers of iniquity, that serve him willingly in the mind and flesh. They are the present enemies of the ruling Lord and God in heaven.

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Unrepented carnal sinners cannot possibly do the will of God, because they harden themselves against repenting for Jesus' sake.

And teachers teaching against sinning not, are the enemies of God's churches from within.

Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls:

Hmmm... Well, yes, but the Old Testament Civil and Ceremonial Law will not somehow be reinstituted.

The King's law of righteousness will be with swift execution of the wicked.

His personal priesthood under resurrected Abraham and David, will be for the natural Hebrew and Jewish seed only, that remain alive one earth judged as sheep among the nations.

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Sigh... Like all those in Christ, there is therefore now no condemnation for sin. Consequences, for sure, but no more condemnation. Yet again, Paul is crystal clear on this in Romans 8, but in all his other letters, too. Your concept of unconditional salvation is terribly flawed in your context here. Our unconditional election to salvation is of God and of God only, dependent on nothing else other than His decision to "have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, compassion upon whom He will have compassion," as Paul says in Romans 9, quoting from Moses, who of course is quoting God Himself, in Exodus 33:19... even "gracious to whom He will be gracious." As Paul says in Ephesians 2, "...by grace (we) have been saved through faith... (a)nd this is not (our) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast..." If you believe otherwise, Ghada, then you are making God's grace out to be not grace ~ unmerited favor ~ at all, something wholly other than grace, as Paul says in Romans 11:6 ~ "...if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." Faithfulness is part of the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), Ghada, a gift of the Spirit (Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12); so our faithful obedience is a result of the saving grace we've received from God.

I no longer dance around with your old stuff. A couple two-steps is enough for me. This goes for the future. I'll still look for anything new, as you've produced here, but continued repetition gets old.

 

[Ghada]

You not knowing anything of the Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Chaldee.. etc shows you’re not serious about the Bible.

The first principles of doctrine and prophecy of Christ, are easily taught by the simple verses of any translated language.

Efforts to change the simple Bible teaching, by ancient script 'scholarship', is just the mental gymnastics of people that take themselves too seriously.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

I mean, how much Greek and Syriac do we need to know, that a millennium is a thousand years? And a prophesied thousand year reign of the Lord on earth, is His Millennium...

A simple reading of the words of prophecy and perhaps a quick look at the Webster's, should suffice for any believer in God's Bible and His Bible Millennium.

When Jesus says we should come unto Him and His word as little children, that includes little children. Not little linguistic child prodigies.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...

 

[Truthnightmare]

The first principles of doctrine and prophecy of Christ, are easily taught by the simple verses of any translated language.

Efforts to change the simple Bible teaching, by ancient script 'scholarship', is just the mental gymnastics of people that take themselves too seriously.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

I mean, how much Greek and Syriac do we need to know, that a millennium is a thousand years? And a prophesied thousand year reign of the Lord on earth, is His Millennium...

A simple reading of the words of prophecy and perhaps a quick look at the Webster's, should suffice for any believer in God's Bible and His Bible Millennium.

When Jesus says we should come unto Him and His word as little children, that includes little children. Not little linguistic child prodigies.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...

Your argument is the same as many.. If I don’t believe as you do, somehow I am faltered.

I’ve never claimed to be wise..

The curve was set by Christ, and you fall short as do I

At this point my responses will be limited as I feel time is of the essence, and I choose feeding the homeless and visiting widows as a priority over internet debate. Even within the time it took to respond to this, I could have made a couple of sandwiches to give to those who are without.

You’re intelligent, I’m sure you understand.

You be blessed!

 

[Ghada]

When a person has invested so much time and effort developing 'their theory' it becomes very hard for them to set any part of it aside. So instead of doing that (when they should) they usually double down to defend it (when they shouldn't) because to do otherwise requires humility they often lack.

This is very true. Not only must we make sure we aren't guilty of it, but it also helps to deal with others, who are plainly practicing it.

That's why I've learned to not personally keep arguing against a stone wall. There comes a point where I call it quits, because there's nothing new being offered, and it's just tap dancing around each other for no purpose.

Also, there are some where humility is not the real problem, but rather their souls are invested in their doctrine to save and justify them.

Once I see that, then I know even more who I'm dealing with. It's one thing to err doctrinally, as we all can do, but to be putting all one's trust in their doctrine, with nothing by works? That's not just doctrinally searing the conscience, but also foolish, since God will just go ahead and judge us all by our works anyway.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

We see here the warning is specifically against searing the conscience by doctrinal means. It's not just the unrepented rejecting the Spirit's conviction to have pleasure in their sinning, but it's the hypocrites seeking to justify their hard-heartedness through doctrines and prophecies of eternal salvation and resurrection unto life, without righteous judgment of their works.

They defile their hearts and sear their minds to the point of really believing they are going to heaven no matter how they live, just because they say so.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

 

[Ghada]

Your argument is the same as many.. If I don’t believe as you do, somehow I am faltered.

Your reaction is the same as many, Ff someone rebukes what you do from the Bible, it must be the fault of the rebuker. Rather than show in fault in the rebuke.

He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a fool getteth himself a blot.

I’ve never claimed to be wise..

If you want, you can reread how God counts the wisdom of ancient Script, can become foolishness to corrupt the simple words of translation.

You say only the 'wise' in ancient Syriac can really know the truth of Bible doctrine and prophecy, and I say bunk. How much Hebraic does it take to know that a millennium is a thousand years, and a thousand years is a millennium? And the Lord's Millennium is a thousand years.

You may be wise to ancient script, but a little child with basic grammar knows the simple truth.

Any 'reigning' on earth from above, that is not a thousand years on earth, is not the Lord's millennial reign coming down from heaven to earth.

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

The curve was set by Christ, and you fall short as do I

Your accusation is the same as many unrepented workers of iniquity: You judge everyone else doing as you do and being as you are.

It's not wise to secure oneself by numbers alone. No matter how much learning in ancient languages we may have.

With God, if all are doing wrong, then all are condemned as being wrong. The flood proved that one.

At this point my responses will be limited as I feel time is of the essence, and I choose feeding the homeless and visiting widows as a priority over internet debate. Even within the time it took to respond to this, I could have made a couple of sandwiches to give to those who are without.

Visiting widows is commanded and good. Social works of modern society is up to one's own faith.

Bragging about it of course, is condemned.

Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

If you want to quit the argument you started, then just do so. I'm only here out of courtesy, and wouldn't be here if not for you coming back for more.

If you can't handle an honest rebuke to your accusations in public, then don't make them in public. Keep them to yourself, while feeding the gvt homeless.

 

[PinSeeker]

I know.

Yes, you know everything... <chuckles> I get that loud and clear...

...my repentance is godly unto His salvation...

I hope so, but from my vantage point it doesn't appear so.

...the righteous Lord will still judged all of us by our works...

That He will...

...a self-deceiving part of your proselytization of others, is to talk like everyone is already just like you anyway.

Hm, well, I say it's utterly self-deceiving to think of yourself as better than anyone else... and in and of yourself as righteous (or anywhere close) as Christ Himself...

The great delusion for the ages is unrepented sinners convincing themselves they are righteous while doing unrighteousness, and good while doing evil...

Agreed; that's pretty much what I've been saying to you, Ghada. Look in the mirror, my friend.

The problem is that without whole hearted repentance of all our transgressions for Jesus' sake, it only achieves the crown of a man, and does not rise to enter into the heavenly place of God's everlasting righteous kingdom.

I agree with this, but I say that thinking you can totally repent and sin no more in this life is self-deception of the worst kind. And again, that's pretty much exactly what John ~ and really the Holy Spirit, as He is the true Author of Scripture ~ says, as I've said.

One of us is certainly decieved.

Agreed. That would be you. Self-deceived, it seems.

You have repented of all your sins and trespasses...

Yes, but not yet perfectly. Those who think they are perfectly repented deceive themselves.

...and are no more sinning with them?

Not willingly, no. But in and of myself, I cannot perfectly repent in this life, unfortunately. But there's this thing called forgiveness, and, like John says, if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You don't believe in being saved first, with gradual repentance following?

I believe in the saving work of the Spirit, being born again, first, yes, and then, rather than "gradual," our lives are then one of continual, repeated repentance, and the Spirit helps us in that, because, unfortunately, the "old man" is still with us in this life, though we certainly long for the day when that will no longer be the case. This is what Paul says in Romans 7...

"I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate... it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."​

Would you accuse Paul of being unrepentant? I hope not... So it is with every Christian. With Paul, I say of myself exactly what he said of himself.

The Bible calls it being double of heart and double minded: the mind now things one way, but the heart does another. It's the wretched spiritual and living condition of Romans 7:8-23

Yes, as Christians, we still fall far short of God's glory. But then there is grace and forgiveness and God's mercies, which are new every morning.

...that the self-justifiers hang onto for their own unrepented sinning unto death.

Ah, so you do think Paul was "unrepented" and a "self-justifier" and deceived... No, see above.

All I want to hear is true doctrine of the Bible. And if it corrects my teaching of it, then all the better...

Great. Well, I say get going; the sooner you get corrected the better. But of course that takes humility...

Unlike you, I'm not here to convince others any self-justifying doctrine is true...

So why are you here, Ghada?

The great Christian hypocritical delusion of the ages is judging others condemned and justifying yourself while doing the same trespasses.

Right, so I encourage you to stop doing it.

Amil is anti-mil: not believing the Bible Millennium.

Okay, so by that definition, I am not "Amil."

I no longer dance around with your old stuff. A couple two-steps is enough for me.

Right back atcha. Except I would substitute 'ridiculous' and 'deluded' and a few other negative things for 'old'...

This goes for the future. I'll still look for anything new, as you've produced here...

Don't bother... for your own sake, as well as anyone else here.

...continued repetition gets old.

The Gospel certainly bears repeating, and never gets old.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ghada]

Hm, well,

Well, yes, is enough. You're intellectual hoops to justify yourself at these times of 'enlightenment', may be interesting at times, but get old.

I say it's utterly self-deceiving to think of yourself as better than anyone else...

And petty accusations.

and in and of yourself as righteous (or anywhere close) as Christ Himself...

And especially tired old misrepresentations.

Only unrepented unrighteous sinners, are righteous in and of themselves, by justifying themselves without works.

The doctrine for the self-righteous is making themselves righteous by faith, while doing unrighteousness by works.

I agree with this,

I know. But since you declare yourself an continued unrepented sinner, made righteous in and of yourself by your own faith alone, then you agree with all things of the Bible in mind only, and not in deed and in truth.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

but I say that thinking you can totally repent and sin no more in this life is self-deception of the worst kind.

Yes. That would be the worst thing in life for anyone to do.

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that is doing righteousness at all times.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

It would also be the worst thing in life for you to have to acknowledge in others. Your defiled conscience forbids it.

Yes, but not yet perfectly. Those who think they are perfectly repented deceive themselves.

Those who know they have not repented with a perfect heart toward God, deceive themselves that God accepts it anyway.

I believe in the saving work of the Spirit, being born again, first, yes,and then, rather than "gradual," our lives are then one of continual, repeated repentance,

Jesus' gospel;

For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation not to be repented of:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,

Salvation and conversion unto repentance is the opposite of God's.

I'll be winding down on this one. I've already quoted the Bible 2or 3 times, and you've openly taught the opposite each time.

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

 

[Ghada]

and then, rather than "gradual," our lives are then one of continual, repeated repentance,

Really? Something new here, thanks.

So, the gradual repentance I thought of, was at least of certain works one at a time for good. But I see now that's too generous.

Your repentance of anything, is only temporary, and never for good.

By Jove, I think I've got it now. You believe you will not be wholly repented of any sinning, until time runs out in the grave!

You'll have to stopped by the grave or the Lord's return, from continued temporary repentance, before you will have have a whole pure heart toward God, and cease once for all from lusting and sinning against Him. It will be the grave that must stop you from continual repeated repentance! That's marvelous! The great Mother Babylon would be proud!

We can call it the gospel of temporary repentance by grace, until final repentance by default!

You do repent, but only temporarily, which is why you can say you're not 'unrepented'. You're unrepented God's way, but not your way.

Which also makes sense, since you also preach your gospel your way, anyway. You are amazingly consistent.

Your own little horned worm has dug and wound it's way through every principle of salvation, justification, repentance, etc...to fit your own gospel of salvation unto temporary repentance. Nice job. Sincerely. You have really given this much time and effort, to turn the deep things of God into the depths of Satan.

But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan.

Let's review this: You can stop and correct me at any time, while I run with this gospel of salvation unto continually repeated repentance. (I think that fits more succinctly. It avoids any confusion of repentance that is continual...)

And so, I call it continually temporary repentance, as being more exact of what is being taught here.

The gospel of continually temporary repentance is for any and all sinful works now, but only temporarily until later. No works of iniquity are off the table. Sinners can repent of any unrighteousness they want to for now, knowing it is only temporary, until their old heart of lust demands renewed satisfaction by works tomorrow.

I.e. double heartedness honestly acknowledged, with built in safety valve against repenting for life. We can easily repent today, so long as we know old lust has an outlet of renewal tomorrow. Sort of like the temporary repenter's way of escape from temptation!

It's the gospel religion of always temporarily turning over a new leaf from time to time, until taht great and glorious day of the grave to put an final end to all temporary leaf turning: Mamma's and Pappas hit it:

"All the leaves are brown...and the sky is gray!" California dreamin...of such a happy grave!"

And although, the very real hope of actually putting away all sins and trespasses is certainly yearned for by the grave. In the meantime the temporarily repented, but unrepented for good, sinners and trespassers must comfort and content themselves in being doctrinally saved and justified, during their renewed pleasures of sin, until temporary repentance time again. (Sounds sort of like Job looking for an end to his diseases and poverty by the grave. However, we learn that it was not any sinning and trespassing he was doing...)

And so, God will have to first kill the temporary repenter, so that he can repent the Lord's way once for all by graveyard default. (But isn';t that when all sinners cease sinning? Anyway, I'm on a roll...)

God having to kill the saved by grace sinner, in order to stop the sinning, is exactly what some unconditional saviors preach for them that remain too out of control. That bad witness of the sinners' christ must be stopped! I mean, they don't even bother taking a breather to repent at least temporarily. Not even for church!

I was in a church building once for some business, and they went around cursing on their way to 'prayer' meeting. The 'pastor' had to scramble around to try and keep a lid on it. Unconditionally saved sinners really do practice what they preach, when their temporary repentance runs out...

True it is, that in this life, sinners' repentance is temporary at best, and only in the grave is there no more need for repeated repentance.

Talk about graveside and deathbed repentance. The gospel of salvation unto repentance by default.

​

So why are you here, Ghada?

Honestly, other than loving to teach Bible doctrine and prophecy, and maybe even someone correcting me by the Bible, I must say I do really enjoy the above kind of revelations and insight into the dark and deep minds and hearts of devil's doctrines.

I mean, I am blessed that certain long-term thinkers and planners, just keep dishing it up on a silver platter. Tainted, but still shiny with continual repeated repenting and buffing.

Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:

From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

 

[PinSeeker]

Hey, just so we're all clear here, I'm going to point out ~ because we all need reminding of this, and often ~ what Paul says in Galatians 5...

"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

Grace and peace to you all.

 

[Zao is life]

I do have a point, many actually, but let’s make this abundantly clear… these things have not yet happened..

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

I think there is a spirit who no doubt loves it when he hears the doctrine repeated over and over that he has already been bound: The devil whose activities in the assemblies of Christ they don't know about, because "he has been bound".