PAST-Millennialism

[3 Resurrections]

The role of Lucifer no longer exist, but Satan surely does.

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

For one thing, the title of "Lucifer" was never applied to Satan in scripture. It was a name applied to the king of Babylon - the "man" who had made all the nations tremble, but who would be slain and left unburied in Isaiah 14:16-20.

For another thing, John wrote a warning to his own first-century audience in Rev. 12:12 that Satan's "short time" of release (at the end of the millennium) had already begun back in those days.

All of this is ancient history as of today, because Satan's "short time" of renewed deception of the nations on this planet expired long ago. He's nothing but ashes as of this point. You can blame all the present wickedness taking place in this world on the wicked impulses of humanity's own heart alone - no Satanic or demonic initiation required for this.

 

[Truthnightmare]

For one thing, the title of "Lucifer" was never applied to Satan.

For another thing, John wrote a warning to his own first-century audience in Rev. 12:12 that Satan's "short time" of release (at the end of the millennium) had already begun back in those days.

All of this is ancient history as of today, because Satan's "short time" of renewed deception of the nations on this planet expired long ago. He's nothing but ashes as of this point. You can blame all the present wickedness taking place in this world on the wicked impulses of humanity's own heart alone - no Satanic or demonic initiation required for this.

For one thing, the title of "Lucifer" was never applied to Satan.

Incorrect…

Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

How did Satan, O Lucifer, weaken the nations? He set ten nation in charge and pulled them away from God, and then claimed to be God. Satan played the role of God for them. This name "Lucifer" in the Hebrew tongue means "morning star". It identifies Satan himself in the role that he will be playing when these events of the end times come to pass. This tells us that Satan will be identifying himself as the "morning star", and trying to pass himself off as Jesus Christ, and most Christians will believe him.

"O' Lucifer" in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary, is number 1966. "Heylel, hay-lale', from 1984, (in the sense of brightness); the morning star-lucifer." Lets go to # 1984; "Halal, haw-lal', a prime root, to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color), to make a show or to boast, thus to be clamorously foolish; to rave." This is why Satan is called the son of the morning, or the morning star. ~ TSO

 

[3 Resurrections]

Incorrect…

No, I am not incorrect that "Lucifer" was referred to as a "MAN" in Isaiah 14:16. "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, 'Is this THE MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms:"

When this last king of Babylon (Belshazzar / aka Lucifer) thought that he would "ascend unto the heaven" and "exalt my throne above the stars of God", he was expressing his scorn for the people of Israel and their God. It was Belshazzar who mocked the Israelite God by bringing out those vessels stolen from the Jerusalem temple, and had his nobles and wives drink from them in Daniel 5:3. The lampstand over against the wall upon which the fingers wrote the message "Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin" was the Menorah lampstand stolen from inside the temple.

It was that very night of Belshazzar's mockery of God and His temple that he was slain, and the Babylonian kingdom dissolved in a single night. According to Isaiah 14:19-20, the dead body of the last king of Babylon / aka Lucifer would be unburied and all his children and relatives slain so that none could inherit the Babylonian kingdom.

 

[Truthnightmare]

No, I am not incorrect that "Lucifer" was referred to as a "MAN" in Isaiah 14:16. "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, 'Is this THE MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms:"

When this last king of Babylon (Belshazzar / aka Lucifer) thought that he would "ascend unto the heaven" and "exalt my throne above the stars of God", he was expressing his scorn for the people of Israel and their God. It was Belshazzar who mocked the Israelite God by bringing out those vessels stolen from the Jerusalem temple, and had his nobles and wives drink from them in Daniel 5:3. The lampstand over against the wall upon which the fingers wrote the message "Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin" was the Menorah lampstand stolen from inside the temple.

It was that very night of Belshazzar's mockery of God and His temple that he was slain, and the Babylonian kingdom dissolved in a single night. According to Isaiah 14:19-20, the dead body of the last king of Babylon / aka Lucifer would be unburied and all his children and relatives slain so that none could inherit the Babylonian kingdom.

Satan/Lucifer is referred to as a man.

Perdition means to perish, there is only one person that has been named and sentenced to perish, that is Satan.

Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

Sorry, but your argument is moot… Lucifer, Satan, devil, dragon, 2nd beast etc. are all one entity exercising different roles.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Satan/Lucifer is referred to as a man.

Satan is never referred to as a man in scripture. He was called the "anointed cherub" which had been in Eden (Ezekiel 28), which is a totally different type of God's creative work. You are trying to connect humankind and angelic beings as the same thing, and they have different types of flesh entirely, as Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 15:40. There are "celestial bodies", and "bodies terrestrial".

Hebrews 2:16-17 also wrote about the distinction between Christ not taking up the nature of the angels, but taking on the seed of Abraham instead to be our representative, when He was "made like unto us". Satan was never made like unto us.

Neither was the "man of sin" the anointed cherub Satan. The "Son of perdition" was called a MAN - not an angelic being. You are getting these confused.

Neither was the second land beast of Revelation 13 the creature Satan. This second Land beast is listed as being separate and distinct from the Dragon / Satan in Revelation 16:13. You are also getting these confused with each other.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Satan is never referred to as a man in scripture. He was called the "anointed cherub" which had been in Eden (Ezekiel 28), which is a totally different type of God's creative work. You are trying to connect humankind and angelic beings as the same thing, and they have different types of flesh entirely, as Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 15:40. There are "celestial bodies", and "bodies terrestrial".

Hebrews 2:16-17 also wrote about the distinction between Christ not taking up the nature of the angels, but taking on the seed of Abraham instead to be our representative, when He was "made like unto us". Satan was never made like unto us.

Neither was the "man of sin" the anointed cherub Satan. The "Son of perdition" was called a MAN - not an angelic being. You are getting these confused.

Neither was the second land beast of Revelation 13 the creature Satan. This second Land beast is listed as being separate and distinct from the Dragon / Satan in Revelation 16:13. You are also getting these confused with each other.

Let’s be direct…

Is Lucifer the devil?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Is Lucifer the devil?

NOT. AT. ALL.

 

[Truthnightmare]

NOT. AT. ALL.

Noted…

Who is this?

The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.

5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.

6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.

7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.

8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.

9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Who is this?

The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.

God tells us that Pharaoh king of Egypt was being compared to one called "the Assyrian" in Ezekiel 31:3. "Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; Whom art thou like in thy greatness? Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches..." etc.

Just like "the Assyrian", Pharaoh king of Egypt would also be delivered to destruction by the heathen, to be slain by the sword (Ezekiel 31:18). There is no reference to Satan at all in this text. God was describing the passing of national powers in the world - Assyrian and Egyptian.

 

[Truthnightmare]

God tells us that Pharaoh king of Egypt was being compared to one called "the Assyrian" in Ezekiel 31:3. "Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; Whom art thou like in thy greatness? Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches..." etc.

Just like "the Assyrian", Pharaoh king of Egypt would also be delivered to destruction by the heathen, to be slain by the sword (Ezekiel 31:18). There is no reference to Satan at all in this text. God was describing the passing of national powers in the world - Assyrian and Egyptian.

You are backing yourself into a corner.. but let us continue…

What pharaoh, or king was in the garden of Eden?

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

There was no Assyrian King, or pharaoh that was in the garden of Eden.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You are backing yourself into a corner.. but let us continue…

What pharaoh, or king was in the garden of Eden?

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

There was no Assyrian King, or pharaoh that was in the gemarden of Eden.

You are mixing up your Ezekiel quotes. The one you first gave above from Ezekiel 31 was God's description of how He would judge Pharaoh king of Egypt, just like he had judged "the Assyrian".

Now you are wanting to bring up a different subject from the Ezekiel 28 chapter, which in verses 11-19 is describing the "anointed cherub" which had been in Eden (and this IS Satan in this case). It is this creature that God would devour by bringing fire out of the midst of him that would turn him into ashes on the earth in the sight of kings. This would be the end of Satan's existence on the earth, because God warned this formerly-anointed cherub Satan that "thou shalt no more exist". Satan's destruction is long past, and his literal ashes cannot harm mankind today.

 

[Truthnightmare]

You are mixing up your Ezekiel quotes. The one you first gave above from Ezekiel 31 was God's description of how He would judge Pharaoh king of Egypt, just like he had judged "the Assyrian".

Now you are wanting to bring up a different subject from the Ezekiel 28 chapter, which in verses 11-19 is describing the "anointed cherub" which had been in Eden (and this IS Satan in this case). It is this creature that God would devour by bringing fire out of the midst of him that would turn him into ashes on the earth in the sight of kings. This would be the end of Satan's existence on the earth, because God warned this formerly-anointed cherub Satan that "thou shalt no more exist". Satan's destruction is long past, and his literal ashes cannot harm mankind today.

God tells us that Pharaoh king of Egypt was being compared to one called "the Assyrian" in Ezekiel 31:3. "Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; Whom art thou like in thy greatness? Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches..." etc.

Just like "the Assyrian", Pharaoh king of Egypt would also be delivered to destruction by the heathen, to be slain by the sword (Ezekiel 31:18). There is no reference to Satan at all in this text. God was describing the passing of national powers in the world - Assyrian and Egyptian.

Who was in the Garden?
8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.

9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

Just answer the question…..

There was no Pharaoh or Assyrian in the garden. So who is the person of comparison that was actually in the garden?

Very simple question.

 

[Truthnightmare]

You are mixing up your Ezekiel quotes. The one you first gave above from Ezekiel 31 was God's description of how He would judge Pharaoh king of Egypt, just like he had judged "the Assyrian".

Now you are wanting to bring up a different subject from the Ezekiel 28 chapter, which in verses 11-19 is describing the "anointed cherub" which had been in Eden (and this IS Satan in this case). It is this creature that God would devour by bringing fire out of the midst of him that would turn him into ashes on the earth in the sight of kings. This would be the end of Satan's existence on the earth, because God warned this formerly-anointed cherub Satan that "thou shalt no more exist". Satan's destruction is long past, and his literal ashes cannot harm mankind today.

I’m sorry, but I find your position rather naive.

Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,

Luke 10
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.”

If you can’t reduce that these two people being spoken of are titles for the same person, then I don’t know what to tell you.

 

[3 Resurrections]

If you can’t reduce that these two people being spoken of are titles for the same person, then I don’t know what to tell you.

If you can't understand that something called "a MAN" is not an anointed cherub, then I don't know what to tell you. Angelic beings as God created them are not humankind. Satan was never a man.

Remember, Christ is also given the Lucifer title as the "Morning star" in Revelation 22:16.

Who was in the Garden?
8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.

I think you are missing the comparison. The growth of the Assyrian nation and its far-reaching influence was being compared to the former glory of the trees that had been in Eden. "And such cypresses as this were in the paradise of God..." The once-former glory of conditions in the garden of God was being compared to what the Assyrian had grown to be like in that same region of the world before God destroyed that Assyrian nation.

 

[Truthnightmare]

If you can't understand that something called "a MAN" is not an anointed cherub, then I don't know what to tell you. Angelic beings as God created them are not humankind. Satan was never a man.
.

Nonsense!!!!
I mean absolute total nonsense l!!!!

Isaiah 14 speaks about the cherub (Lucifer)

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Later in the same passage it refers to this Cherub as a man ..

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms

So this immediately proves you wrong!

Remember, Christ is also given the Lucifer title as the "Morning star" in Revelation 22:16.

What? It would seem you don’t know there are more than one morning star…

Job 38
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Stars! (Plural) more than one bud.

 

[Truthnightmare]

If you can't understand that something called "a MAN" is not an anointed cherub, then I don't know what to tell you. Angelic beings as God created them are not humankind. Satan was never a man.

Remember, Christ is also given the Lucifer title as the "Morning star" in Revelation 22:16.

I think you are missing the comparison. The growth of the Assyrian nation and its far-reaching influence was being compared to the former glory of the trees that had been in Eden. "And such cypresses as this were in the paradise of God..." The once-former glory of conditions in the garden of God was being compared to what the Assyrian had grown to be like in that same region of the world before God destroyed that Assyrian nation.

I actually enjoy a bit of intensity (passion) in conversation. Your diligence in the word is awesome.. It is a pleasure speaking with you regardless of our disagreements..

I gotta go hit the grill for the Super Bowl, so I will re- read our discussion and tap back in with you later..

You be blessed 3 Resurrections…

 

[3 Resurrections]

Isaiah 14 speaks about the cherub (Lucifer)

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

No, Isaiah 14 never mentions the anointed cherub at all. It speaks a prophecy against the oppressive "king of Babylon" (Is. 14:4), and calls him "Lucifer". This king of Babylon would die, with worms covering him and under him. Those that witness his death would ask "Is this THE MAN that made the earth to tremble?" Yet this king of Babylon's dead body would be cast out of that grave, and be like "a carcase trodden under feet". This is a different death than the predicted destruction of the anointed cherub (Satan) in Ezekiel 28:18-19. That anointed cherub would be destroyed by God burning him to ashes on the earth.

"Lucifer" was a title given to the last king of Babylon (who was Belshazzar). It is not the name of Satan, and Satan is not a man.

I actually enjoy a bit of intensity (passion) in conversation. Your diligence in the word is awesome.. It is a pleasure speaking with you regardless of our disagreements..

I gotta go hit the grill for the Super Bowl, so I will re- read our discussion and tap back in with you later..

You be blessed 3 Resurrections…

I agree with you on this - God's word is the most fascinating book and I am always the better for a discussion on its themes, even when there is disagreement. Maybe even more so when there is disagreement.

Blessings back atcha...

 

[Truthnightmare]

No, Isaiah 14 never mentions the anointed cherub at all. It speaks a prophecy against the oppressive "king of Babylon" (Is. 14:4), and calls him "Lucifer". This king of Babylon would die, with worms covering him and under him. Those that witness his death would ask "Is this THE MAN that made the earth to tremble?" Yet this king of Babylon's dead body would be cast out of that grave, and be like "a carcase trodden under feet". This is a different death than the predicted destruction of the anointed cherub (Satan) in Ezekiel 28:18-19. That anointed cherub would be destroyed by God burning him to ashes on the earth.

"Lucifer" was a title given to the last king of Babylon (who was Belshazzar). It is not the name of Satan, and Satan is not a man.

I agree with you on this - God's word is the most fascinating book and I am always the better for a discussion on its themes, even when there is disagreement. Maybe even more so when there is disagreement.

Blessings back atcha...

I believe I understand your position in full…

To be clear…

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth;

What is the name of the anointed cherub?

 

[3 Resurrections]

To be clear…

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth;

What is the name of the anointed cherub?

This "anointed cherub" who had been in Eden, as Ezekiel 28:18-19 tells us, was most definitely the Devil / Satan / the Dragon / the ancient Serpent. Scripture links all these together as being the same character in Revelation 12:9. God through Ezekiel was then predicting the manner in which He would destroy that formerly-anointed cherub on the earth (which has already happened long ago in AD 70).

However, this anointed cherub "prince of Tyre" is not to be confused with the other human "prince of Tyre" as found in Ezekiel 28:1-10, since that human "prince of Tyre" was called a man, and would experience quite a different type of death "in the midst of the seas", and by the hand of "strangers".

This joint role of both angelic and human princes of Tyre is an example of a hierarchy of angelic beings in the ancient world, working to influence the leadership of human princes. There were evil angelic powers working behind the scenes in the governing of the nations, trying to disrupt God's plans for the nations of the world (in vain, as it turned out). Daniel's angelic messenger mentioned some of these, with the wicked angelic "Prince of the kingdom of Persia" that opposed him for 20 days, and a certain "prince of Grecia" that would come later. It took the help of Michael the "chief prince" to aid Daniel's angelic messenger in fighting that evil angelic prince of the kingdom of Persia.

It was this hierarchy of evil angelic powers working behind the scenes of the world's nations that Christ conquered and destroyed in the AD 70 period. Scripture gives us the timing for this destruction of the entire Satanic realm.

 

[Truthnightmare]

This "anointed cherub" who had been in Eden, as Ezekiel 28:18-19 tells us, was most definitely the Devil / Satan / the Dragon / the ancient Serpent. Scripture links all these together as being the same character in Revelation 12:9.

Indeed, this is also confirmed in Revelation 20

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The title Dragon is of one who starts wars.
The Serpent is of one who is tricky and subtle
The devil temps and Satan is an adversary to God.

These are all names given to Satan depending on his role at that particular time.

These are all negatives, and cannot be applied here…

Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

When this cherub was perfect he was not a serpent a dragon or a devil…

What was his name when he was perfect?