PAST-Millennialism

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PinSeeker

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I think there is a spirit who no doubt loves it when he hears the doctrine repeated over and over that he has already been bound: The devil whose activities in the assemblies of Christ they don't know about, because "he has been bound".
Hmm, I think he hates it... the truth is often that way... and wishes with all his being that he were still able to deceive the nations, and longs for the day ~ is chomping at the bit for that day ~ when he will be loosed and able to do so again. :) But when that day comes, much to his chagrin, the Gospel will have accomplished all for which it was sent. Right now, though, he is relegated to directing his "minions" and throwing his fiery darts... and only partially effectively (as much as the Lord allows).

Grace and peace to you, Zao.
 

Truthnightmare

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Your reaction is the same as many, Ff someone rebukes what you do from the Bible, it must be the fault of the rebuker. Rather than show in fault in the rebuke.

He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a fool getteth himself a blot.


If you want, you can reread how God counts the wisdom of ancient Script, can become foolishness to corrupt the simple words of translation.

You say only the 'wise' in ancient Syriac can really know the truth of Bible doctrine and prophecy, and I say bunk. How much Hebraic does it take to know that a millennium is a thousand years, and a thousand years is a millennium? And the Lord's Millennium is a thousand years.

You may be wise to ancient script, but a little child with basic grammar knows the simple truth.

Any 'reigning' on earth from above, that is not a thousand years on earth, is not the Lord's millennial reign coming down from heaven to earth.

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Your accusation is the same as many unrepented workers of iniquity: You judge everyone else doing as you do and being as you are.

It's not wise to secure oneself by numbers alone. No matter how much learning in ancient languages we may have.

With God, if all are doing wrong, then all are condemned as being wrong. The flood proved that one.


Visiting widows is commanded and good. Social works of modern society is up to one's own faith.

Bragging about it of course, is condemned.

Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.


If you want to quit the argument you started, then just do so. I'm only here out of courtesy, and wouldn't be here if not for you coming back for more.

If you can't handle an honest rebuke to your accusations in public, then don't make them in public. Keep them to yourself, while feeding the gvt homeless.

You said…
Your knock-off 'millennium' is by not being serious enough about the Bible to read it correctly.

Your accusation is I’m not reading the Bible correctly, because I don’t take it seriously.

However, you do not have the authority to declare how serious a person takes the Bible, and although study aids in understanding, it is not a declaration of correctness.

I have no idea what you are referring to when you say “knock- off millennium”

I have bragged of nothing.. I merely suggested time is of the essence and perhaps God prefers charity over debate.

Rebuke? What have you rebuked? Nothing! Because there is nothing to rebuke.

Why don’t you point out what you believe to be in error and we can go from there.
 

Truthnightmare

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I think there is a spirit who no doubt loves it when he hears the doctrine repeated over and over that he has already been bound: The devil whose activities in the assemblies of Christ they don't know about, because "he has been bound".
We know Satan WAS on earth {Job 1:7}, but he is now incarcerated in Heaven by Archangel Michael {Rev 12:7}. We must divide the Word" {2nd Tim 2:15} as to time frames when the various events occur.

The book of Job is actually the oldest book in the Bible (See: The Companion Bible; in the preface to the book of Job).
Satan used to be able to roam the earth, but no more! We know that satan was in the Garden of Eden (as the serpent), When he was taken out and imprisoned in Heaven is not clear, but some feel that it was in {Mt chpt 4 & Lk chpt. 4} when, after tempting Jesus in the wilderness, Jesus told satan: "Get thee hence, Satan" {Mt 4:10}. I feel that is reasonable. Jesus tells satan the get "hence", which means "get behind me". Jesus is now in Heaven, so if satan is behind Him, then satan is in Heaven (incarcerated by Archangel Michael {Rev 12:7}).

Matt 4:10-11
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him. (KJV)
 

Truthnightmare

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Hmm, I think he hates it... the truth is often that way... and wishes with all his being that he were still able to deceive the nations, and longs for the day ~ is chomping at the bit for that day ~ when he will be loosed and able to do so again. :) But when that day comes, much to his chagrin, the Gospel will have accomplished all for which it was sent. Right now, though, he is relegated to directing his "minions" and throwing his fiery darts... and only partially effectively (as much as the Lord allows).

Grace and peace to you, Zao.
Without going to deep.. I believe in 3 ages, with us now being in the second. The actions of the enemy alludes in many ways that if enough of Gods children follow him (satan) then God will be forced to start another age.
 

ewq1938

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We know Satan WAS on earth {Job 1:7}, but he is now incarcerated in Heaven by Archangel Michael {Rev 12:7}.

satan has never been incarcerated in heaven. He is written to lose a war and be kicked out of heaven for good. He won't be incarcerated in the pit in the Earth until after the war against Christians he starts at the end of Rev 12 known as the trib.
 

Truthnightmare

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satan has never been incarcerated in heaven. He is written to lose a war and be kicked out of heaven for good. He won't be incarcerated in the pit in the Earth until after the war against Christians he starts at the end of Rev 12 known as the trib.
And I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, “Now have come salvation and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ; for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.
 

ewq1938

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And I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, “Now have come salvation and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ; for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.

No incarceration shown there. You would have to go to Rev 20 to see that.
 

PinSeeker

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No incarceration shown there. You would have to go to Rev 20 to see that.
I agree that there is no real incarceration, but an absolute removal ~ for now ~ of Satan’s ability to enter into the courts of the Lord, which we can easily see from Job’s story he, Satan, once had:

Job 1:6-12 portrays Satan as possessing the ability to come into God's immediate presence along with other angels, or "sons of God" (v.6). He used this place of power to cause great harm to Job. But according to what Christ says in the Gospels, Satan lost that privileged access to the heavenly courts as a result of the incarnation and work of Christ. In Luke 10:18-19, the seventy disciples return with great joy from their successful mission in preaching the gospel, healing the sick, and casting out demons. Christ then explains how they were able to accomplish these wonders: "He said to them, 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven'" (v. 18). Jesus explains Satan's fall in terms of Christian ministry: "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you" (v. 19).

It is significant that the first beings to recognize the incarnate Christ, according to the gospel of Mark, were demons. Mark 1:24 and Luke 4:34 are among the passages that show the demons crying out in terror that the Holy One of God has come to torment them. Jesus explained that when He cast out demons by the Spirit of God (Matthew 12:28-29), it meant that the kingdom of God had come. In His work, He was binding the strong man (that is, the devil), who formerly had been keeping people in the dark and painful prison of unbelief, sin, and certain judgment.

After the Lord's crucifixion and resurrection, and immediately before His ascension back to the Father, He commissioned the church to "go . . . and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (28:19). They would be able to do this because of Christ's victory over Satan, who had long blinded the nations, for Jesus said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me' (v. 18). Satan's illegitimate power over the nations has been wrested from him, and placed into the hands of the legitimate Lord and Savior of the world. Now the Christian church can do its work; it can engage in successful mission all over the world, bringing the good news of freedom from captivity to those who had long been in chains because of sin and unbelief.

Colossians 2:14-15 makes it clear what happened to the powers of evil through Christ's ministry, especially what He accomplished on the cross: "[He] cancel[ed] the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in Him." This indicates that wicked powers were defeated in principle at the cross of Christ. When Jesus purged all of our sins on Calvary, something happened to Satan. The evil one lost his authority to keep people back from God. He was bound by what Jesus did.

Grace and peace to all.
 

Jay Ross

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This is pretty simple to equate.
Where is Satan (defacto) now?

At present Satan and the other beasts have access to the heavenlies. The war in heaven is still raging and Satan and the other judged beasts/heavenly entities will be found wanting and will be kicked out of heaven soon at the time of the Armageddon judgement if the kings of the earth and the judged Hevenly hosts and kings of the earth will then be imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years to await the time of their punishment.

This can all be discerned from the scriptures.
 

Truthnightmare

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At present Satan and the other beasts have access to the heavenlies. The war in heaven is still raging and Satan and the other judged beasts/heavenly entities will be found wanting and will be kicked out of heaven soon at the time of the Armageddon judgement if the kings of the earth and the judged Hevenly hosts and kings of the earth will then be imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years to await the time of their punishment.

This can all be discerned from the scriptures.
When you say beast, who are you referring to?
 

Truthnightmare

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Satan as the "anointed cherub" no longer exists. He has been burned to ashes long ago on the earth, and as God told Satan in Ezekiel 28:18-19, "thou shalt no more exist" after that.
The role of Lucifer no longer exist, but Satan surely does.

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
 

ewq1938

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This is pretty simple to equate.
Where is Satan (defacto) now?


How would I or anyone know that? Only someone who has met with and seen satan recently would know his currently location.
 

Truthnightmare

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How would I or anyone know that? Only someone who has met with and seen satan recently would know his current location
Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 9).

Would it be fair to say this took place in heaven?
 

ewq1938

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Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 9).

Would it be fair to say this took place in heaven?

It would be an assumption since scripture presents satan as able to be in heaven or Earth and if those are possible places, then anywhere is as well.

All we know is that Rev 12 says satan is kicked out of heaven and cannot return but we don't know when that will happen or when it has happened. The end of Rev 12 is the beginning of the trib so it happens before the trib starts but again, we don't know when exactly this war/kicking out takes place.
 

Truthnightmare

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It would be an assumption since scripture presents satan as able to be in heaven or Earth and if those are possible places, then anywhere is as well.

All we know is that Rev 12 says satan is kicked out of heaven and cannot return but we don't know when that will happen or when it has happened. The end of Rev 12 is the beginning of the trib so it happens before the trib starts but again, we don't know when exactly this war/kicking out takes place.
Indeed… But is it not possible that his ability to roam earth and heaven is no more…

Bare with me on this one…

Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (KJV)
And:

Rev 9:11
11 And they [the Locust Army that came out of the Bottomless Pit] had a king [satan the antichrist] over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. (KJV)

We know the fallen angels are locked up.

Jude 1:6
6 And the angels*1 which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (KJV)

Is there leader not also?

The natural next question would be: "if satan is cast from Heaven WITH his angels {Rev 12:9}, then who are the Locust Army (fallen angels) that are released from the Pit on the earth in {Rev 9:11}".

Rev 9:11
11 And they [the Locust Army that came out of the Bottomless Pit] had a king [satan the antichrist] over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. (KJV)

2 Pet 2:4
4 For if God spared not the angels*1 that sinned, but cast them down to hell*2, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; (KJV)
The same fallen angels of {Gen 6:2}. *2hell: = Greek word #5020 tartaroo (tar-tar-o'-o); from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: KJV-- cast down to hell.
So in this we see that there are different places, or different 'levels' of confinement for angels who sin against God. Some in Heaven {Rev 12:9}, some in the Bottomless pit {Rev 9:2-3...}, and some in Tartarus{2nd Pet 2:4}. Are all these places in the same place? Are all these places the same place?

And if all these angels are confined, why not their leader?
 

ewq1938

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Indeed… But is it not possible that his ability to roam earth and heaven is no more…

It's very possible because if this war is over, satan cannot enter heaven any more:

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



Bare with me on this one…


And:



We know the fallen angels are locked up.

Jude 1:6
6 And the angels*1 which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (KJV)

Is there leader not also?


No. Satan is described as free long after the Gen 6 events.





And if all these angels are confined, why not their leader?

They were locked up after Gen 6 but Job and the gospels show satan was not also locked up. Why? Either God simply needs satan to do various things to fulfill the evil side of the overall plan or satan did not do as his angels did in Gen 6 and thus he was not locked up for the sins only they committed.
 

Truthnightmare

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It's very possible because if this war is over, satan cannot enter heaven any more:

Yes, and I fully understand that angel. And I believe Satan was roaming until Christ said get behind me.

As far as Job, your position is based off of what you see as the chronological order… But allow me to present the following. Which would make the book Job the oldest.

A lengthened account of the discussion of these questions would be without profit.

But, if JOB was the son of ISSACHAR (Gen 46:13), then we have a clue that may help us to a decision of both.

It is better to keep within the Bible itself for the settlement of its problems; and to treat the whole Book as the context of all its parts.

There is no reason why Job should not be the son of ISSACHAR, and no better evidence is forthcoming for a different view.

The three friends of Job were descendants of ESAU; they would therefore be contemporaries.

ELIPHAZ of TEMAN, in Idumea, was a son of ESAU, and had a son called TEMAN, from whom his country took its name (Gen 36:10-11). It was noted for its “wise men” (Jer 49:7); and is mentioned with EDOM (Amos 1:11-12). Compare (Jer 25:23) where both are connected with BUZ, the brother of UZ (Gen 22:21).

BILDAD the Shuhite. SHUAH was the sixth son of ABRAHAM by KETURAH (Gen 25:2); and is mentioned in connection with ESAU, EDOM, and TEMAN (Jer 49:8).

ZOPHAR the Naarnathite. NAAMAH (now Na’aneh, six miles south of Lod, in the lowlands of Judah).

If Job was the son of ISSACHAR (Gen 46:13), he would have gone down to Egypt with his father.

ISSACHAR was forty at “the going down to Egypt “. (See Appendix 50, III, p. 52 Companion Bible).

If JOB was the third son (Gen 46:13), he would have been about twenty at that time (1706 BC).

We are told that he lived 140 years after his “double” blessing (Job 42:10). If that “double” blessing included length of years, then his age would have been 70 + 140 = 210 (i.e. three seventies of years). His lifetime would be from 1726-1516 BC.

According to this, he was born the year after JOSEPH was sold, and died 119 years after the death of JOSEPH (in 1635 BC). When JOSEPH died, Job was ninety-one. If his "double" blessing did include length of years, then his affliction took place twenty-one years previously, when he was seventy. His removal from EGYPT to UZ must therefore have taken place earlier still.

When Job died (1516 BC) Moses was fifty-five, and had been in MIDIAN fifteen years (twenty-five years before the Exodus).

This would account for Job being a worshipper of the God of ABRAHAM, and explains how Moses could have been the author of the book, and perhaps an eye- and ear-witness of the events it records in Midian. If so, the time has come (as Dr. Stier foretold and hoped*) when this book would be regarded as “the Porch of the Sanctuary”; and when this “fundamental wisdom of original revelation will cease to be ascribed, as it now is by some of the best, to a later poet in Israel. “
 

Jay Ross

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When you say beast, who are you referring to?

The four winds of heaven, (Daniel 7:2) which is a description of spiritual entities, and those spiritual entities are angels. These angels are able to influence people groups, nations, kingdoms and empires that are all a part of the sea of humanity such that the "beasts" manifests in the sea of humanity and rise up to do the whims of the respective four beasts plus the Little Horn. This explains why the people groups, nations, kingdoms and empires ebb and flow in and out of the influence and dominion of the respective beasts mention in Daniel 7:1-12.

The “four winds of heaven” are best understood to be four wicked fallen heavenly host that have gained an influence over the earth, in that, their dominate characteristic are manifested within the sea of humanity and these manifestations are described as beasts. The “four winds of heaven” are mentioned in Daniel 7:2, 8:8 and 11:4, and Zechariah 6:5.

The little horn in these verses is another wicked fallen heavenly host, who is also called the “False Prophet” in Revelation 16:12-15, 19:20 and 20:10. The little horn also appears in Daniel 8.

This is a very different understanding of who the "beasts" of Daniel 7 are. Unfortunately, the traditional understanding of the Reformation fathers still persists to this day where they only considered the human manifestation of the beast to be the actual beast. This is not true.