I do not know, I do not and did not know him. But I do and did know Jesus.
And I know what He told me. And I have 2 eyes and I can see.
And I am speaking from my own first hand experience.
Pressing into the Kingdom
- Thread starter Episkopos
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And I know what He told me. And I have 2 eyes and I can see.
And I am speaking from my own first hand experience.
Don't compare apples with studabakers. Only a Jew could despise the law...as this law was not given to others. The same for grace. ONLY CHristians receive grace...not unbelievers. To sin with grace holds an even stricter punishment than the Jews had under the law.
To whom much (grace) is given MORE (obedience) is required. The bible testimony is clear.
Trying to always push away the many warnings of Jesus onto non-believers is a non sequitur.
Yes and they fell upon these Words of Eternal Life:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily,
I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
I do not see the words or term, pressing into, in any part of it, do you?
You are all over the place-are you reading?
it is important to distinguish between the Old Covenant (law given to Israel) and the New Covenant (grace offered to all nations). Here is a structured response incorporating scriptural evidence:
Old Covenant:
The Old Covenant was given exclusively to the nation of Israel (Exodus 19:5).
Disobeying the Old Covenant carried specific consequences, including capital punishment for certain transgressions (Leviticus 20:1-5).
New Covenant:
The New Covenant extends God's grace to all nations (Acts 10:34-35), regardless of ethnic background.
Sinning under the New Covenant carries different consequences compared to the Old Covenant, as discussed later in this response.
Comparing Consequences:
Under the Old Covenant, disobedience led to specific consequences, such as capital punishment (Leviticus 20:1-5).
Under the New Covenant, disobedience leads to spiritual consequences, such as separation from God and potential physical consequences depending on the nature of the sin (Galatians 6:7-8).
Strict Punishment:
Although there isn't a direct comparison of punishments between the Old and New Covenants in the text, the New Covenant does carry its own set of strict consequences for disobedience. These consequences include spiritual separation from God and potentially physical consequences depending on the nature of the sin (Galatians 6:7-8).
Summary:
Only Jews were subject to the Old Covenant, whereas both Jews and Gentiles can benefit from the New Covenant.
Both the Old and New Covenants carry consequences for disobedience, although the nature of these consequences differs significantly.
The New Covenant carries its own set of strict consequences for disobedience, making it equally binding and applicable to all who accept God's grace.
By responding with these scriptures and concepts, one can demonstrate the differences between the Old and New Covenants and explain why the statements--So your statement:-- "Only a Jew could despise the law...as this law was not given to others" and "ONLY Christians receive grace...not unbelievers" are not fully accurate representations of biblical teachings. Instead, the New Covenant extends God's grace to all nations, making it accessible to both Jews and non-Jews alike.
I really do get the impression you are NOT reading and assimilate Scriptures @Episkopos-I can clearly discern this, and so are others-but you sit as a judge and umpire on THEIR salvation-whilst you are smug in yours and speaking in a condescendingly manner to all members!
Do you even realize that you are sinning/missing the mark in doing this?
Did I invent the holy walk in Christ? Or is your disdain for the things of God reacting against me who warns people of the coming judgment? You are merely in unbelief. And I am honoured to be criticized for the truth. You want to be molly coddled among other carnal types. Do so. But leave God out of it. Otherwise you will have to answer for it.
Much better it is to fear the Lord, depart from iniquity and false claiming...and seek God while there is still time.
I don't think many are seeing the opportunity that is laid before the living to enter into the promises of God. Instead people will react against the truth with a hostility that will become an eternal regret.
Doesn't have to be that way...but the egos look for feeding.
Thank God you did not have the privilege of inventing God's words as spoken in particular by Paul, in Colossians Chapter 2 for this subject discussion.
(Col 2:5) For though I am absent in the flesh, I am still with you in the spirit, rejoicing and seeing your order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.
(Col 2:6) Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord- walk in him,
(Col 2:7) rooted and up built in him and established in your faith, even as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
(Col 2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ.
(Col 2:9) For in him, in a bodily form, dwells all the fullness of all that God stands for;
(Col 2:10) and in him you are made complete. He is the head of all principality and power.
(Col 2:11) In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ. The Meaning of Baptism
(Col 2:12) Having been buried with him in baptism, by which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
(Col 2:13) And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses.
(Col 2:14) Having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, Christ did away with it by nailing it to the cross.
(Col 2:15) Having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Paul is saying that believers have received the spirit of Christ and so we should become more like him in our daily lives. aka walking in Christ.
And this should be reflected in our thoughts and actions, daily. Don't listen the false ideas, philosophies and vain deception, and ancient pagan religions and systems to derail you.
Epi: Why are you on a mission to warn genuine believers of impending judgment if some are sluggish or don't really take Paul's advice to heart by not genuinely walking in Christ daily? Does Paul say they are lost as an unbeliever. Are they not still saints? I believe you consider them at least less than saints and it is your duty to warn them and add in that they are not really in the Kingdom yet as well, as I read and listen to your words. Are they then to be judged like an unbeliever? You really have not made that clear in your writing yet, although I believe you have implied it as so.
Please show scripture that warns believers of impending judgement because of not being fully motivated to continue with zeal as Christ in spirit? I do not personally suggest or recommend believers be sluggish in this 'holy and righteous' calling however.
And all believers will partake of the blessings and promises of God in his realm. It is yourself who is saying no, only those that follow me as I have personally been to 'the mountain top.' This is my read..
It is ironic though that Paul in this section of scripture, in verses 1-4 gives a warning to the Laodiceans of FALSE teaching.
(Col 2:1) For I would have you know how greatly I strive for you and for those at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh,
(Col 2:2) that their hearts may be comforted, they being knit together in love; and to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, that they may know the mystery of God as it is in Christ.
(Col 2:3) In him are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
(Col 2:4) This I say, so that no one deludes you with persuasive speech.
Verse 4b is what I believe you are preaching Epi.
And then Paul speaks of not missing the prize (not salvation of course and no indication you will lose your saintly status):
(Col 2:16) Let no one therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day.
(Col 2:17) They were a shadow of the things to come, but the real object is Christ.
(Col 2:18) Let no one rob you of your prize by a false humility and worshiping of the angels, keeping on about all the things which he has supposedly seen in visions, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
(Col 2:19) and not holding fast the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and bands, increases with the increase of God.
(Col 2:20) If you died with Christ from the elements of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to ordinances?
(Col 2:21) Handle not, nor taste, nor touch
(Col 2:22) (all things that perish with the using), after the precepts and doctrines of men?
(Col 2:23) Which things have indeed a false appearance of wisdom in worship and humility and severity to the body, but are not of any real value against stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
Paul in verse 18 is saying to not get caught up with unauthentic (fake) humility...don't fake it...or in the worshipping of angels, not to mediate folks seeing things of value in visions, or the egotistical and proud carnal minds in the world. Keep close to God the head of Christ. Don't practice or adhere to events and activities of worthless gods worshipped long ago, of the world...and especially not to indulge in the false truths and doctrines of men that appear to have truth, wisdom but are truly self-centered and carnal.
(Eph 5:6) Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things comes the anger of God upon the sons of disobedience.
(Eph 5:7) Therefore do not associate with them!
(Eph 5:8) For you were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord. Walk as children of light
(Eph 5:9) (for the fruit of the light is in all goodness and righteousness and truth),
(Eph 5:10) proving what is well-pleasing to the Lord.
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I warn people of God's coming judgment. If I don't then I will be held responsible. I know that very few will take those warnings seriously...as they are already laid out in the bible where they are conveniently ignored by the majority. It must be this way. We are rich westerners and the rich are not in the habit of humbling themselves...rather they seek advancement in riches whether temporal or eternal. Once these have become convinced that the bible warnings are for others (like unbelievers) then they will not take their foot off the gas or question their motivation.
Agreed. But the "terror of the Lord"? Jesus saying MANY will be cut off. And we rich spoiled Westerners somehow thinking that we are not particularly targeted with all our excesses???
Well I have seen the difference between what is commonly accepted to be the gospel...and the depth and power of it. I don't claim to be presently in the higher walk...I wouldn't be here if I was. But while I am I warn people of what holiness demands...to claim things that aren't eternally true...brings such a heavy judgment, so much so that we can be very surprised...as I also was. Look at Uzzah and the cart. Was he not just trying to help? Yet the Lord struck him dead for interference. How many modern believers are interfering with God's ways? Too many. Maybe a few will relent and escape the judgment to come on the smug ones who have no fear of God before their eyes.
People have already been deceived by that false teaching. Are you saying that any wake up call from false teaching is itself a false teaching? You must really trust the religious system and how religious finances work.
Being spit out of the mouth of Jesus not only loses you a saintly status but also a righteous status.
The fear of the Lord is still the beginning of wisdom. How many of my detractors fear the Lord? Really.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
You mean like grapes or olives?
One produces the fruit of the vine and the other provides oil for the lamps.
So there some interesting verses regarding the "press"
Pressing into the kingdom:
Mar 2:4
And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
Mar 5:27
When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
Mar 5:30
And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
Luk 8:19
Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.
Luk 8:45
And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
Luk 19:3
And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
There some serious squeezing going on there.
And if they were sqeezing Jesus and virtue went out of him, could we say this was maybe the oil?
This looks like it might be a fun study.
I have to get my shovel and my pick.
I'll be back
Hugs
The Greek word "thlipsis" (θλῖψις) appears in the New Testament and is often translated as "tribulation," "affliction," "distress," or "persecution." It refers to a state of being under pressure, squeezed, or crushed, either physically or metaphorically. In a spiritual sense, it can refer to the hardships and difficulties that believers face in their lives, including persecution for their faith. Thlipsis is used to describe the suffering that believers may experience as a result of their commitment to Christ, but it is also seen as a means of refining and strengthening their faith. Some verses that use the word "thlipsis" include Matthew 13:21, John 16:33, Romans 5:3, and Revelation 7:14. While the term "thlipsis" does not directly refer to the sin of unbelief, it is often associated with the trials and difficulties that believers face in their journey of faith.You mean like grapes or olives?
One produces the fruit of the vine and the other provides oil for the lamps.
So there some interesting verses regarding the "press"
Pressing into the kingdom:
Mar 2:4
And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
Mar 5:27
When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
Mar 5:30
And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
Luk 8:19
Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.
Luk 8:45
And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
Luk 19:3
And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
There some serious squeezing going on there.
And if they were sqeezing Jesus and virtue went out of him, could we say this was maybe the oil?
This looks like it might be a fun study.
I have to get my shovel and my pick.
I'll be back
Hugs
(Verb)
A. Verbs.
1. thlibo (G2346), "to press, distress, trouble," is translated "pressed" in 2Co_4:8, RV (KJV, "troubled"). See AFFLICT, No. 4.
2. apothlibo (G598), translated "press" in Luk_8:45 (end): see CRUSH.
3. biazo (G971), in the middle voice, "to press violently" or "force one's way into," is translated "presseth" in Luk_16:16, KJV, RV, "entereth violently," a meaning confirmed by the papyri. Moulton and Milligan also quote a passage from D. S. Sharp's Epictetus and the NT, speaking of "those who (try to) force their way in"; the verb suggests forceful endeavor. See ENTER, Note (3), VIOLENCE, B, No. 2.
4. sunecho (G4912): for the significance of this in Act_18:5, "was constrained by the word," RV, i.e., Paul felt the urge of the word of his testimony to the Jews in Corinth, see CONSTRAIN, No. 3. It is used with No. 1 in Luk_8:45, RV, "press" (KJV, "throng").
5. enecho (G1758), lit., "to hold in," also signifies "to set oneself against, be urgent against," as the scribes and Pharisees were regarding Christ, Luk_11:53, RV, "to press upon," marg., "set themselves vehemently against" (KJV, "to urge"). See ENTANGLE, No. 3.
6. epikeimai (G1945), "to lie upon, press upon," is rendered "pressed upon" in Luk_5:1. See IMPOSED.
7. epipipto (G1968), "to fall upon," is rendered "pressed upon" in Mar_3:10. See FALL, B, No. 5.
8. bareo (G916), "to weigh down, burden," is rendered "we were pressed" in 2Co_1:8, KJV (RV, "we were weighed down"). See BURDEN, B, No. 1.
9. epibareo (G1912), 2Co_2:5, RV, "I press (not) too heavily" (KJV, "overcharge"). See BURDEN, B, No. 2, OVERCHARGE.
10. piezo (G4085), "to press down together," is used in Luk_6:38, "pressed down," of the character of the measure given in return for giving. In the Sept., Mic_6:15.
11. dioko (G1377), "to pursue," is used as a metaphor from the footrace, in Php_3:12, Php_3:14, of "speeding on earnestly," RV, "I press on." see FOLLOW, No. 7.
12. phero (G5342), "to bear, carry," is used in the passive voice in Heb_6:1, "let us... press on," RV, lit., "let us be borne on" (KJV, "go on"). See GO, Note (2), (h).
B. Noun.
epistasis (G1999v), primarily "a stopping, halting" (as of soldiers), then, "an incursion, onset, rush, pressure" (akin to ephistemi, "to set upon"), is so used in 2Co_11:28, "(that which) presseth upon (me)," KJV, "cometh upon," lit., "(the daily) pressure (upon me)"; some have taken the word in its other meaning "attention," which perhaps is accounted for by the variant reading of the pronoun (mou, "my", instead of moi, "to me, upon me"), but that does not adequately describe the "pressure" or onset due to the constant call upon the apostle for all kinds of help, advice, counsel, exhortation, decisions as to difficulties, disputes, etc. Cf. the other occurrence of the word in Act_24:12, "stirring up," RV (KJV, "raising"), lit. "making a stir" (in some mss., episustasis). See COME, Notes at end (9).
(Noun) see CROWD, A
WS.
Serious "squeezing indeed"
J.
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Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't want to be an olive. It could get quite pressing.
persecution for their faith.. like flies in the ointment.
Exo 8:21
Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses: and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are.
That sounds like thlipsis to me.
Psa 78:45
He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them.
there's those pesky frogs.
Ecc 10:1
Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honour.
NIV: As dead flies give perfume a bad smell, so a little folly outweighs wisdom and honor.
Jde 1:12
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Gen 34:30
And Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, Ye have troubled me to make me to stink among the inhabitants of the land, among the Canaanites and the Perizzites: and I being few in number, they shall gather themselves together against me, and slay me; and I shall be destroyed, I and my house.
Exo 7:18
And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.
Amo 4:10
I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
So this pressing? who is being pressed? isn't it those that do not believe?
Jesus said, it's not because of the miracles I did, it's because you were filled with the bread...
Jhn 6:26
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Jhn 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Luk 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
every man presseth into it? But many are called and few are chosen.
back up:
Luk 16:14
And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Luk 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
So is Jesus rebuking the Pharisees for their covetousness to take the Kingdom?
They don't care about the miracles, they just want the loaves of bread to fill their bellies.
or their lusts...
Gen 19:9
And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
So when Jesus was being pressed by the crowds, many were healed but they didn't follow him, they just wanted the miracles and not the bread.
So what is that, that it takes both the believing (miracles) and the faith (bread) to be saved?
thinking..
I'm just picking and learning.
Thankyou Johann much food for thought
Hugs
Well-your picking and learning is excellent-our Lord was black and blue daily from the pressing and thronging of the crowds-Greek is very expressive-I wouldn't want to be an olive. It could get quite pressing.
persecution for their faith.. like flies in the ointment.
Exo 8:21
Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses: and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are.
That sounds like thlipsis to me.
Psa 78:45
He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them.
there's those pesky frogs.
Ecc 10:1
Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honour.
NIV: As dead flies give perfume a bad smell, so a little folly outweighs wisdom and honor.
Jde 1:12
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Gen 34:30
And Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, Ye have troubled me to make me to stink among the inhabitants of the land, among the Canaanites and the Perizzites: and I being few in number, they shall gather themselves together against me, and slay me; and I shall be destroyed, I and my house.
Exo 7:18
And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.
Amo 4:10
I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
So this pressing? who is being pressed? isn't it those that do not believe?
Jesus said, it's not because of the miracles I did, it's because you were filled with the bread...
Jhn 6:26
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Jhn 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Luk 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
every man presseth into it? But many are called and few are chosen.
back up:
Luk 16:14
And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Luk 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
So is Jesus rebuking the Pharisees for their covetousness to take the Kingdom?
They don't care about the miracles, they just want the loaves of bread to fill their bellies.
or their lusts...
Gen 19:9
And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
So when Jesus was being pressed by the crowds, many were healed but they didn't follow him, they just wanted the miracles and not the bread.
So what is that, that it takes both the believing (miracles) and the faith (bread) to be saved?
thinking..
I'm just picking and learning.
Thankyou Johann much food for thought
Hugs
Johann.
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