Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
Surely you don’t believe you're always correct, but I kinda like the confidence.
Did Jesus claim to be God?
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Yes, I believe I am always correct. Anything else is unbelief.
And you know what God says about unbelief?
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
You do understand that there is scripture that says no man is always correct?
You are incorrect as according to what is recorded in the bible.
Thomas was a Jew and he called Jesus his God.
Then it is not the truth for I know a man that was always correct.
He is my God. You refer to Him as Jesus.
You have to take in account that just because a scripture was true
before a certain period in time, does not mean it will be true past
it's point in time.
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
Exactly… the man that was always correct is God, or God in the flesh…. But you are just a man. Are you correct in everything, or just the Bible?
Rich R
Well-Known Member
As you said the Bible does not record anywhere that Jesus actually say, "I am God." Now I don't want to come out and say Jesus is not God, but it does seem rather odd to me that such a fundamental doctrine would not be clearly spelled out. Many say our very salvation depends on a doctrine that is not plainly declaired. Maybe God has a reason for doing that, but it would sure seem out of character to disguise such a fundamental doctrine if He wanted us to accept it.
Having said that, I would suggest that John 10:30 may not be a good verse to show that Jesus is God. Later Jesus asked God, is Father, that we would all be one with them.
John 17:21,
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
I would be loathe to say that me being one with Jesus and God makes me to actually be God. Maybe being "one" with someone else doesn't necessarily mean the two are the same entity? Worth investigating I'd think.
Nor may John 10:33 be proof positive that Jesus is God. A few of point about that verse:
The word "God" there does not have a definite article. It is just written as "theos." Normally in Greek the definite article is used when Yahweh is meant, i.e. "o theos."
Contrary to popular modern Western understanding that there is only one "god," the Bible in fact talks about many gods. The OT is full of references to other gods. The word "god" in Greek is "theos" and Hebrew "el" or "elohim" which any concordance or Bible dictionary will define as a powerful being with authority. Just look up the word "god" in Strong's Concordance.
You can find many verses in the Bible that mention Baal, Ashtoreth, Chemosh, and many others. They are all real gods, not some imaginary being. They are powerful. They destroy entire nations. They are in fact devil spirits, the fallen angels. Of course Yahweh not only created these spiritual beings as perfect before they rebelled, but He is far far more powerful. Nonethless their power ought not to be understimated. They are alive and well even today. Everybody wonders why we have all the mass shootings. I think it pretty obvious once we recognize the spiritual world and the influence it has on the material world. Baal and his coharts are responsible of all the suffering we see. It's cerainly not Yajweh's doing! I only point this out to show that the Bible uses the word "god" differently than most people today.
I would think the very next verse in John 10, verse 34, is very relevant. Jesus sure wasn't saying the Pharisees are Yahweh and yet he called them gods! As leaders (albeit terrible leaders) of God's people they certainly held authroty and were powerful, hence in that culture it would be perfectly OK to call them gods. Might sound weird to us, but we're not them. They saw some things differently and God wrote to them in terms they understood.
I might also point out that it was the Pharisees who said Jesus made himself out to be God. Were the Pharisees a reliable source of truth? I'm thinking not. True, Jesus didn't argue with them about that statement, but he was accused of many things that he just let slide. But maybe in this particular case he didn't argue, because he took their statement as them saying he, like all the other gods, had a rather high level of power and authority. I don't know for sure about that.
You are absolutely correct in saying that Jesus claimed to be the son of God in John 14. He made the same claim many times. I also am the son of my father. Given that my father is asleep in the grave awaiting the return, and I'm alive and well as evidence by my writing this post, wouldn't that indicate that a son is not also his father? I would think so, at least so long as we take the meaning of simple words for what they plainly say.
Then there is 1 Cor 8:6 which delcares in the simpliest terms possible that only the Father is God. That's seems pretty hard to take as saying anything other than the Father alone is the one true God. Jesus would be in compelter agreement with Paul on this point:
John 17:3,
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
So while there are no verses where Jesus (or anybody else for that matter) says, "I am God" ! Cor 8:6 and John 17:3 clearly say only the Father is the one true God.So, as I said, I'm not saying Jesus is'nt God. Just pointing out some things in the scriptures. I don't think I'm twisting anything to accord with a preconceived doctrine one way or the other. Just trying to point out the obvious. Hope that's OK with everybody.
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Duh??????
Was Jesus wrong according to Matthew 6:6&9 ?
"...................................., pray to thy FATHER which is in secret; ..........................."
"...............................: Our FATHER which art in Heaven, ................................"
Why not the Holy Spirit is everywhere, or even the Son, while the FATHER art in Heaven and in secret ?
In Genesis 1:2, didn't the Holy Spirit of GOD moved upon the face of the waters ?
No, they killed Him because it was their purpose in life
predetermined for them by God, long before they were created.
That is why they existed.
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
Heya Rich,As you said the Bible does not record anywhere that Jesus actually say, "I am God." Now I don't want to come out and say Jesus is not God, but it does seem rather odd to me that such a fundamental doctrine would not be clearly spelled out. Many say our very salvation depends on a doctrine that is not plainly declaired. Maybe God has a reason for doing that, but it would sure seem out of character to disguise such a fundamental doctrine if He wanted us to accept it.
Having said that, I would suggest that John 10:30 may not be a good verse to show that Jesus is God. Later asked God that we would all be one with them.
John 17:21,
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
I would be loathe to say our being one with Jesus and God makes us God. Maybe being "one" with someone else doesn't necessarily mean the two are the same entity? Worth investigating I'd think/
Nor may John 10:33 be proof positive that Jesus is God. A couple of point about that verse:
The word "God" there does not have a definite article. It is just written as "theos." Normally in Greek the definite article is used when Yahweh is meant, i.e. "o theos."
Contrary to popular modern Western understanding that there is only one "god," the Bible in fact talks about many gods. The OT is full of references to other gods. The word "god" in Greek is "theos" and Hebrew "el" or "elohim" which any concordance or Bible dictionary will define as a powerful being with authority. Just look up the word "god" in Strong's Concordance.
You can find many verses in the Bible that mention Baal, Ashtoreth, Chemosh, and many others. They area all real gods, not some imaginary being. They are powerful. They destroy entire nations. They are in fact devil spirits, the fallen angels. Of course Yahweh not only created these spiritual beings as perfect before they rebelled, but He is far far more powerful. Nonethless their power ought not to be understimated. They are alive and well even today. Everybody wonders why we have all the mass shootings. I think it pretty obvious once we recognize the spiritual world and the influence it has on the material world. Baal and his coharts are responsible of all the suffering we see. It's cerainly not Yajweh's doing! I only point this out to show that the Bible uses the word "god" differently than most people today.
I would think the very next verse in John 10, verse 34, is very relevent. Jesus sure wasn't saying the Pharisees are Yahweh and yet he called them gods! As leaders (albeit terrible leaders) of God's people they certainly were held authroty and were powerful, hence in that culture it would be perfectly OK to call them gods.
I might also point out that it was the Pharisees who said Jesus made himself out to be God. Were the Pharisees a reliable source of truth? I'm thinking not. True, Jesus didn't argue with them about that statement, but he was accused of many things that he just let slide. But maybe in this particular case he didn't argue, because he took their statement as them saying he, like all the other gods, had a rather high level of power and authority. I don't know for sure about that.
You are absolutely correct in saying that Jesus claimed to be the son of God in John 14. He made the same claim many times. I also am the son of my father. Given that my father is asleep in the grave, awaiting the return, and I'm alive and well as evidence by my writing this post, wouldn't that indicate that a son is not also his father? I would think so, at least as long as we take the meaning of simple words for what they plainly say.
Then there 1 Cor 8:6 which delcares in the simpliest terms possible that only the Father is God.
So, as I said, I'm not saying Jesus is'nt God. Just pointing out some things in the scriptures. Hope that's OK with everybody.
I would ask who is our savior?
If you feel that strongly about it, I would suggest you take it up with God.
That is what I do when I want something.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
The Holy Spirit is everywhere, even in the Son. The Father is the Holy Spirit in heaven
and at the same time on earth in the Son.
Fred, I would suggest you forsake your own understanding
as soon as possible, before it misleads you again.
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
Well…. I’m just asking, if Jesus is our savior which I believe then according to scripture He would have to be God.
The Spirit that is me is correct in everything.
I am just along for the ride.
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
How can I not always obey the Spirit
when everything is done by the Spirit?
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