Duh??????
Psalms 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there:
if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Did Jesus claim to be God?
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Psalms 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there:
if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
As a former ordained minister, were you ever made aware of what the word “worship” can mean in a broader sense, scripturally?......as used in the Hebrew and Greek it has two definitions.....this word can denote worship, but can also be applied to reverent acts other than worship. However, the context determines in what way the respective words are to be understood.
The Greek word pro·sky·neʹo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hish·ta·chawahʹ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship. The term pro·sky·neʹo is used in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king (Matt 18:26) as well as the act Satan stipulated when he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. (Matt 4:8-9) Had he done obeisance to the Devil, Jesus would thereby have signified submission to Satan and made himself the Devil’s servant.
So “pro·sky·neʹo” can be rendered either “worship” when it is directed to God, or “obeisance” when directed to a human being. It basically denotes a bowing down to someone in respectful honor.....in Bible times it was often directed to fellow humans as a greeting.....or it can mean rendering to God the worship he requires of his servants. Not necessarily bowing down physically, but always approaching God with a humble spirit in reverence and honor.
To a Samaritan woman Christ Jesus said: “The hour is coming when neither in this mountain [Gerizim] nor in Jerusalem will you people worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know . . . Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:21-24)
The words of Jesus clearly showed that true worship would not depend upon the presence or use of visible things or a specific geographical location. Instead of relying on sight or touch, the true worshiper exercises faith and, regardless of the place or things about him, maintains a worshipful attitude. Thus he worships, not with the aid of something that he can see or touch, but with spirit. Since he has the truth as revealed by God, his worship is in agreement with that truth. Having become acquainted with God through the Bible and evidence of the operation of God’s spirit in his life, the person who worships with spirit and truth definitely “knows” who or what he is worshiping. (John 17:3)
What was given to Jesus the man therefore, was obeisance, not worship, because he is not and never was, God in the flesh. He had to be 100% mortal human to give his life as a ransom for mankind. An immortal God cannot die.
Jesus rendered “worship” to his God, but would have recoiled at receiving worship himself. “Obeisance” was not rejected however, because he was the divine “son of God” and deserving of the respect given his unique position.
What are your thoughts?
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Yeah, it means Jesus is God and to be WORSHIPED, as the JW Bible even admits.
NWT Heb 1:6 Let all God's angels WORSHIP him!
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
Ok, we know that Jesus was the Word, and in the above it says that the Word was God, i.e., Jesus was God. Seems pretty plain and clear to me "the Word was God"; it’s just that the traditions of men have skewed the truth, and men love men’s words more than God’s Word.
Jesus was God in the flesh, His name Immanuel even means "God with us." Jesus is the Greek for the Hebrew Yehoshuawhich means "Yehovah the Savior."
Thomas called Jesus "my God" and was commended for believing it. Jesus was called "the mighty God" and the "everlasting Father" in the Old Testament; Jesus said that He was God. But yet many Christians somehow do not know that Jesus was God in the flesh.
Even the unsaved Jews knew that Jesus was calling Himself God, why don’t saved Christians today know it; whence cometh that spirit?
He is God, and they killed His flesh body for it. The Jews of time had twisted the Old Testament religion of the Hebrews for their own ends, they left out God; and when He came, as it was prophesied in the Hebrew Old Testament Scriptures, they killed Him.
I want to know what was the profit of having God come down to be a man. What did that accomplish? It seems like a stupid idea to come down for no reason to get beat up and spit on. And where in the Old Testament did we ever see that? Good Lord, you were dead if you even got in the wrong room in the Temple. And toast if you bumped into the Ark and that includes dropping it if your job was to carry it. And now He wants to be beat up like a man. Why?
Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” Some theologians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind, but the Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).
Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” Some theologians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind, but the Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).
Your answer on this subject is brilliant. In your honor I will say this...
This is really a big deal for me as I start to realize for the first time that the foundational reason Jesus appeared was to "destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8), to disarm "principalities and powers" (Colossians 2:15), and to "destroy him that had the power of death" (Hebrews 2:14). The one concept that unifies all the other aspects of the ministry of Jesus Christ is his mission to spread the kingdom of God by pushing back the kingdom of darkness. It's also interesting to note that none of the devil spirits knew what was coming by the resurrection of Christ. And that would explain why they asked him continually "why have you come?"
P.S. It says the Son of God did that...
1 John 3:8
...For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
The answer I gave you did not come from me, it came from the Spirit.
The only thing brilliant about me is my God.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
You are new here I see, and your username is antagonistic before you say anything.
Your posts are like many others on Internet forums whose attitude is “my way or the highway” when it comes to discussing topics of an emotionally charged nature.
Since Jesus taught his disciples that they were to be respectful of others, you seem to push that aside in favour of telling everyone before they engage with you that they are wrong and you are always right.....since there is no end of others who do the same, what makes you special? Who told you that you were right? You?
Or was it God’s spirit.....the same spirit who told all the others the same thing?
You need more than claim to prove that what you say is correct.
I again appeal to the Greek....the language of the Christian scriptures....
Read in Greek this verse does not say what is mistranslated by trinitarian translators.
From that Mounce Interlinear....
“In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros ·ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos.
Verse 2 says...”he houtos was eimi in en the beginning archē with pros ·ho God theos.”
That very small word changes the whole meaning of that statement. It’s omission is done purposely to promote church doctrine, not to convey Bible truth.
Since the Greeks had no way to identify the one God of the Jews because they had stopped using his name in their speech, they used the definite article “ho” (THE) to identify Yahweh. Any other god or goddess was simply called “theos” without the definite article. Look carefully at the Greek and see the word “ho” is used frequently to identify the logos but only once to identify Yahweh. The second mention of “theos” is without the definite article, and confirmed in the second verse which also has the definite article. There are two ”gods” in that verse.....but only one is Yahweh.
It was “ho logos” who became flesh, not “ho theos”. (John 1:14)
Again I have to ask is this a statement of the deity of Christ? His name was prophetically called “Immanuel” but he was never called that was he? Gabriel told Mary he was to be named Jesus.
Since the meaning of names was very important to the Jews “God with us” can simply mean that God was with the Jews by means of his son who never once said he was God incarnate.
How was God “with “ his people, Israel after their release from slavery in Egypt? It was by means of his prophet Moses and it was also prophesied the “a prophet like Moses” would come and again lead God’s true worshippers out of slavery to an oppressive religious system.
Thomas called Jesus what the word “theos” means in Greek.....”a divine mighty one”....who is not necessarily Yahweh.
Isaiah called the promised Messiah “Mighty God” but never “Almighty God”. And a Father is a life giver.....so Jesus could rightly be called an eternal father by giving eternal life to mankind.
He was also called “Prince of Peace”....so what is a “Prince”, but the son of a King?
They did not ever accuse Jesus of claiming to be God....no Jew would ever have accepted that God would appear in the flesh....he would never have to.....because God cannot die and so he could not pay the redemption price to save the human race from Adam’s deadly inheritance. Only a sinless mortal could do that and that is why Jesus was “sent” by his God and Father to complete his mission.
Mere humans cannot kill an immortal God....what a preposterous idea!
This whole notion betrays the lack of actual scriptural knowledge of God and his son. It was they themselves who identified their relationship as one that humans could understand, even though God’s son was created by his Father as the “beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14) He was “begotten” long before his earthly mission....he was “the firstborn of ALL creation” (Col 1:15-17) which means he preceded “all creation” and “through him” all creation came into being....but he is not the Creator.
Humans killed “the son of God” because he was 100% mortal human, not a 50-50% God/man.
Are you familiar with the redemption laws in Israel? Apart from the fact that God cannot die, Yahweh would have paid a price than was so much more than what was required, and what was demanded to redeem fallen humanity.....like using a hundred trillion cans of bug spray to kill one mosquito.
All Jesus was required to be was “sinless”, which is why God sent him from heaven to become Adam’s equivalent....a man born without inherited sin......fulfilling God’s law...“an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life”. The mechanics are simple, but Christendom has made it all very complicated by insisting that Jesus had to be God. He never had to be God to pay the price of redemption.
I’d like to send all these advocates of Jesus’ deity back to study the actual Bible, rather than rely on the flawed theology of Christendom’s church system.
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Antagonistic to the children of God or the children of the devil?
Which group?
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
John 20:28
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord (Kurios] and my God (Theos]. KJV
Both the word "Lord," and "God" in the above Scripture describing Jesus Christ in the Greek manuscripts have the definite article. Below is the Strong's definitions for both the definite article and the word "Lord" and the
word "God."
[the definite article]: Greek word #3588 ho (hol; including the feminine he (hayl; and the neuter to (tol; in all their inflections; the def. [definite] article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in
English idiom]: KJV - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc. Lord: Greek word #2962 kurios (koo-ree-os); from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as
noun) controller; by implication, Mr. (as a respectful title): KJV - God, Lord, master, Sir. God: Greek word #2316 theos (theh'-os); of uncertain affinitys a deity, especially (with NT:3588 [the
definite article]) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very KJV - exceeding,
God, god [-ly, -ward]
John 20:28b "my Lord and my God"
= Def. Article; therefore: "- Lord my and - God my"= "my Lord and my God"
As far as the Jews are concerned, they knew exactly what Jesus was proclaiming as He openly referred to Himself as “I AM”
John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (KJV)
Jesus was/is God and He stated so. While it is somewhat obscured in our English translations, the Jews knew full well that Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh (for Jesus spoke to everyone in their native tongue, therefore when Jesus told them in Hebrew that He was the "I AM," what He was saying was 'EHaYEH , or the title fully stated 'EhaYEH aSHER 'EYaYEH which means: I AM THAT I AM, or I will be what I want to be –— I exist (by self), self existent, God Almighty, created by none, but simply became –— was –— is. To this day, Jews will not pronounce 'EHaYEH , for they reason that for a Hebrew in the Hebrew tongue, to say the name 'EHaYEH, is itself calling oneself God.
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
He is God, and they killed His flesh body for it. The Jews of time had twisted the Old Testament religion of the Hebrews for their own ends, they left out God; and when He came, as it was prophesied in the Hebrew Old Testament Scriptures, they killed Him.
And Jesus forgave sins; whom but God can forgive sin? Jesus never asked God to forgive the sins, He (Jesus) simply forgave the sins Himself; none but God can do this. That is why the Pharisees got mad at Jesus, they didn’t know the authority that Jesus had as God, so they accused Him of blasphemy.
Titus 2:13
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; KJV
1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. KJV
If you feel that strongly about it, then may I suggest, you find something I have posted, that
you can prove it, to be incorrect.
Then you will have cause to question me concerning it.
How about you cutting and pasting anything I have said that you believe I cannot prove.
Then we can go from there as a starting point.
I don't need to read anything in any language.
I just ask my God and He gives me the correct answer.
That is why I am always right in what I say.
They are His words not mine.
None of this has any determination of me and my forth coming existence in my God, so I will say
on this at this point in our conversation, I don't have any comment concerning it.
A prince, is next in line to be the King when His Father turns it over to Him
such as King David did to prince Solomon.
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