Were We Alive In Heaven Before We Were Born?

[Mr E]

Your argument is that all doesn't mean all. Here's an explanation that was provided.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

/

Focus on what alive and dead mean. Start there. If there's anyone who believes that "all" means all-- it's me.

 

[marks]

Not all are in Christ.

Everyone in Adam died. Everyone in Christ is made alive. All but Christ were in Adam. Not all from Adam come to be in Christ.

Much love!

 

[MA2444]

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Now waitaminute, we have to continue to look at this spiritually.
John 12:
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour..../KJV

Everyone who is born of woman will die. Whether they are saved or not.

In a practical sense, I think this tells us that we must die to the world.

 

[Mr E]

Now waitaminute, we have to continue to look at this spiritually.
John 12:
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour..../KJV

Everyone who is born of woman will die. Whether they are saved or not.

In a practical sense, I think this tells us that we must die to the world.

It's not "die to the world."

It's just die.

You must be born again.

 

[MA2444]

It's not "die to the world."

It's just die.

You must be born again.

It's both really. You must be born again spiritually. Then the old man and his ways are dead and all things are new. Then the world turns on you for loving the Lord so you wind up dying in the flesh. But we are still alive in spirit. We are, still alive in Christ.
So I went ahead and just said die to the world.

...you must be born again. That bears repeating.

 

[quietthinker]

We both agree on a good outcome. (not a flop) But we arrive there from different perspectives.
Something interesting happens when I point out what the view of the church looks like to me.
In this case, readers may conclude that I am claiming the end will be a flop. I'm not.
On the contrary, in fact.

What I am saying is that "a flop" is the rational conclusion of what we have been taught.
I am questioning what we were told should never be questioned.

Here's the facts. (as I see them)
A success rate that declares that "few will find it" = a flop
Consequences for failing to solve the puzzle = eternal separation (whatever that means)
Eternal separation doesn't resolve the issue = a flop
Much more to say on this. I'll stop there.

I don't think we've seen the end of the Good News story.
What we know of the Good News is no longer even news.
God loves a good story. I don't think he will concede this one to a flop.

Does any of this resonate with you? Or better explain where I'm coming from?
We don't need to agree. If we understand each other, that's enough. IMHO

/

I think it is worth being aware of where our focus is in the whole salvation story; is it on us and what we are doing/ responding to or is it on God and his nature/character and activity.

The Church generally has majored on us (it is the human affliction); what we believe (doctrinally) and how we behave (what practices we engage or don't engage). This approach for the most part eclipses the ability to know the nature of God in any depth even while giving lip service to it. I see this as nothing short of a clever strategy by the devil to thwart really knowing God. I has the appearance of piety but is bereft of a meaningful emotional connection. It becomes a sole cerebral exercise which pats itself on the back so to speak. It is in a sense similar to the 'faith' pagans have in their gods.

God in his long-suffering is nevertheless patient and tender and wooing in spite of our stubbornness and insistence in seeing him in the skewed, limited and misrepresented way that he is. (consider the story of the Hebrews as an example)

If on the other hand the focus/ awareness is on God and his character ie, on knowing him, I for one have discovered that what might be considered a flop because many choose the path of death and relatively few the path of life does not qualify as a flop at all but rather honours in real terms the freedom and choices men and angels are gifted with to make, elevating the nature and character of God far more than would have been in the consciousness of intelligent creatures before the fall.

 

[St. SteVen]

I really appreciate your thoughtful and detailed response. Thanks.

I think it is worth being aware of where our focus is in the whole salvation story; is it on us and what we are doing/ responding to or is it on God and his nature/character and activity.

Agree.
That's a great way to look at it.
My contention has always been that salvation isn't about us.
We can't save ourselves. We need salvation. (on many levels)

The Church generally has majored on us (it is the human affliction); what we believe (doctrinally) and how we behave (what practices we engage or don't engage). This approach for the most part eclipses the ability to know the nature of God in any depth even while giving lip service to it. I see this as nothing short of a clever strategy by the devil to thwart really knowing God. I has the appearance of piety but is bereft of a meaningful emotional connection. It becomes a sole cerebral exercise which pats itself on the back so to speak. It is in a sense similar to the 'faith' pagans have in their gods.

Agree.
And it really places the church BETWEEN us and God.
It's WAY too easy to end up with a relationship with a church instead of a relationship with God.
Relative to salvation, that is shaky ground. IMHO

God in his long-suffering is nevertheless patient and tender and wooing in spite of our stubbornness and insistence in seeing him in the skewed, limited and misrepresented way that he is. (consider the story of the Hebrews as an example)

Agree.

If on the other hand the focus/ awareness is on God and his character ie, on knowing him, I for one have discovered that what might be considered a flop because many choose the path of death and relatively few the path of life does not qualify as a flop at all but rather honours in real terms the freedom and choices men and angels are gifted with to make, elevating the nature and character of God far more than would have been in the consciousness of intelligent creatures before the fall.

Well said.
Does this elevate the importance of the Fall?
How did Adam's relationship with God differ after the Fall?

It appears that the plan (logos) was for humankind to fall,
as part of the drama in the story of redemption.

If so, who holds the ultimate responsibility? (sovereignty)
The will of humankind, or the will of God?

/

 

[Mr E]

It's both really. You must be born again spiritually. Then the old man and his ways are dead and all things are new. Then the world turns on you for loving the Lord so you wind up dying in the flesh. But we are still alive in spirit. We are, still alive in Christ.
So I went ahead and just said die to the world.

...you must be born again. That bears repeating.

That's a common understanding, but you won't find it in scripture. It doesn't say anywhere that you must be born again 'spiritually.'

You (and not just you) added that. Jesus said- you must be born again.

The concept highlighted in John 12 is physical death, and being buried in the ground. It's not spiritual, but physical. Secondly-- it's about trading your physical life for the eternal one.

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

In Corinthians Paul describes it as being crucified with Christ--- an image of sacrificing your life like Jesus did, who died and was raised from the dead. A physical death. Paul also says we have to crucify the world-- as in 'kill it' -- this is the opposite of dying to it, in fact the desires of the spirit within you and the desires of the flesh are in complete opposition to one another.

But I say, live by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desires of the flesh. For the flesh has desires that are opposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit has desires that are opposed to the flesh, for these are in opposition to each other, so that you cannot do what you want.

So rather than die to the world, you have to crucify the world.

Now those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

It's through Jesus on the cross that the world is crucified and it's through the cross that you are crucified to the world.

 

[Mr E]

It cost God's Son his life.....even the limitation of a body for eternity.

Can you explain please, what you mean by this?

 

[MA2444]

That's a common understanding, but you won't find it in scripture. It doesn't say anywhere that you must be born again 'spiritually.'

You (and not just you) added that. Jesus said- you must be born again.

The concept highlighted in John 12 is physical death, and being buried in the ground. It's not spiritual, but physical. Secondly-- it's about trading your physical life for the eternal one.

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

In Corinthians Paul describes it as being crucified with Christ--- an image of sacrificing your life like Jesus did, who died and was raised from the dead. A physical death. Paul also says we have to crucify the world-- as in 'kill it' -- this is the opposite of dying to it, in fact the desires of the spirit within you and the desires of the flesh are in complete opposition to one another.

But I say, live by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desires of the flesh. For the flesh has desires that are opposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit has desires that are opposed to the flesh, for these are in opposition to each other, so that you cannot do what you want.

So rather than die to the world, you have to crucify the world.

Now those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

It's through Jesus on the cross that the world is crucified and it's through the cross that you are crucified to the world.

So when you are born again, you are not born again spiritually? So what then? Physically? Then you went on to make my point!

But I say, live by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desires of the flesh. For the flesh has desires that are opposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit has desires that are opposed to the flesh, for these are in opposition to each other, so that you cannot do what you want.

So what do we do? Live by the Spirit, but not spiritually? It's all spiritual Brother. God is a Spirit. We are not humans on a spiritual journey. We are spiritual beings on a human journey. Remember that.

 

[Mr E]

What's wrong is that you fail to consider the Lord's compassion that He holds for us in His heart. The amount of it. God was so good to those He created in Heaven by giving them free will and apparently too many gifts? And one being got uppity and in trouble, then he went and corrupted the Lord creation by enticing them to sin. This damaged mans soul(s) in a very spiritually significant manner.

The way I understand it is, God could wave his hand and everything would be pure again and no sin. But in doing that it would destroy His previous creation. Like a computer program that starts glitching. You can wipe the program and reload it and start anew, but all previous data will be lost. (That's you with your personality as it is, as the Lord created you, but you have damage and he wants to keep you original. He loves you for who you are, So instead of a wipe/reload, He has to go in and patch the existing program so to speak. To save you. To save me. To save all of us.


There wont be a 100% rescue of all people. Some have chosen death. But that the Lord is taking so long in His Rescue Mission doesnt mean it is a flop. It means it was as successful as possible. So it is a success. And you never know, you might be the last one they find and pull from the water before calling the mission off? You wouldnt be calling it a flop then!

One more, Lord. One more.

Jesus came and taught us to think of God as our Father-- not some tyrant eager to punish us for our sins, but as a loving parent, willing to discipline the children He wants the best for-- as a means to their growth and development. It was a radical shift from the way the religious leaders portrayed Him.

Let me ask you-- if you are a parent.... Can you just wave your hand and make your wayward children obey and become pure? Would you, if you could? -or is there greater value in seeing them come to a self-realization of their condition, repent and be restored by the process?

 

[Mr E]

So when you are born again, you are not born again spiritually? So what then? Physically? Then you went on to make my point!



So what do we do? Live by the Spirit, but not spiritually? It's all spiritual Brother. God is a Spirit. We are not humans on a spiritual journey. We are spiritual beings on a human journey. Remember that.

Message in a bottle.

The word/spirit in you. Yes, and the spirit that is in you is in opposition to the flesh that contains it. This "human journey" is what could be more properly called your 'soul experience' and you life then, is the record of that spirit that is within you as it battles the human desires of your flesh. One will overcome the other.

And then, when you die.... the flesh is left behind and the spirit returns to the Father and this record book of your life is opened-- your soul examined and judged and if your spirit is found worthy-- it remains with the Father until in service it is again sent to mankind as the breath/word/spirit/seed of God. A new soul on yet another rescue mission.

 

[Mr E]

This is a great thread btw @MA2444 -I love this conversation.

When one gives unrestrained choice to ones creatures; when one loves because that's God's nature, vulnerability is front, left and centre and being exploited a real possibility. Lucifer, the shinning bright angel chose to exploit, the scripture telling us it was unremitting pride which drove him.
Yes, God knows the end from the beginning yet he loved sufficiently to create intelligent beings with free will.....cuz ultimately, love will/ can do no other.

Let me throw this out there for consideration. Tale as old as time....

When the elohim (divine beings) 'created' the heavens and the earth in the beginning-- forming each component as depicted in the Genesis account Moses gave us... the project was good in all respects. But when the elohim determined to make for themselves- man, in their own likeness and image, what began as good, quickly became corrupted by fleshly desire-- namely sexual in nature. The divine ones, led by Lucifer, himself a son of God (ben elohim) became so enamoured with these clay figures, these I-dolls that they had made in their own likeness, that they fixated on them and like pornographers, became addicted to the images, in direct disobedience to the Father.

They fell for the images and the flesh-- and became trapped in a prison of their own making.

What could and what should a Father do? It was by their own free will that all this happened, but should the Father just leave His children to their own designs? No. So He sends another son to this created world-- on a rescue mission to save his brothers and sisters from the peril and prison they find themselves trapped in. With the good news, the word of God- the Father to His children who have fallen below-- He sends this son as a spiritual deposit-- the breath of life for all mankind, and the opportunity to renounce the world, leave it behind, repent and return to Him. This story too is told right there in Genesis, if you can see it.

 

[MA2444]

Message in a bottle.

The word/spirit in you. Yes, and the spirit that is in you is in opposition to the flesh that contains it. This "human journey" is what could be more properly called your 'soul experience' and you life then, is the record of that spirit that is within you as it battles the human desires of your flesh. One will overcome the other.

And then, when you die.... the flesh is left behind and the spirit returns to the Father and this record book of your life is opened-- your soul examined and judged and if your spirit is found worthy-- it remains with the Father until in service it is again sent to mankind as the breath/word/spirit/seed of God. A new soul on yet another rescue mission.

That's one of my favorite shows. The old Mission Impossible. I like the analogy too! There have been times when I paused and thought, I feel like a secret agent for God!

And our (Commander) told us that our Primary Contact is one that we will not see. The Holy Spirit! I tell you not even 007 ever had such good backup! Our link with Headquarters is invisible. Our radio is implanted in our heart and mind (Prayer). Our mission if we choose to accept it, is to seek out this one that is called Yeshua and receive His message from Him to take unto the souls which still need rescued...

Our Holy Spirit contact knows the way to Yeshua so we must follow Him.

 

[MA2444]

They fell for the images and the flesh-- and became trapped in a prison of their own making.

So many who need rescued dont even know they need rescuing. They've been in bondage so long that it seems normal to them.

The Israelites never had bondage this bad! They were living it up in Egypt compared to us.

What you said there sounds like Morpheous talking!

This is a great thread btw @MA2444 -I love this conversation.

Me too! A very good thread!

 

[quietthinker]

I really appreciate your thoughtful and detailed response. Thanks.

Agree.
That's a great way to look at it.
My contention has always been that salvation isn't about us.
We can't save ourselves. We need salvation. (on many levels)


Agree.
And it really places the church BETWEEN us and God.
It's WAY too easy to end up with a relationship with a church instead of a relationship with God.
Relative to salvation, that is shaky ground. IMHO


Agree.


Well said.
Does this elevate the importance of the Fall?
How did Adam's relationship with God differ after the Fall?

It appears that the plan (logos) was for humankind to fall,
as part of the drama in the story of redemption.

If so, who holds the ultimate responsibility? (sovereignty)
The will of humankind, or the will of God?

/

The fall was a tragedy in that the human family lost its potential to fully develop 'made in the image of God' but God in his wisdom took what was to our great disadvantage and made our destiny more glorious though great risk and suffering to himself. (have you ever wondered/thought that every violation among the children of men towards themselves, other men/ women and his creation is felt by God intensely?)

The whole intelligent Universe is gob smacked as they see the slaughtered lamb (revelation) as God's solution to the problem of suffering and sin. A solution nobody expected.

 

[quietthinker]

Can you explain please, what you mean by this?

The second person of the Godhead took on the process of a human body at the conception of Mary. The Resurrection imbued him with a glorified body, a body he will retain for eternity as his identification with the human family, even a marred one so to speak, with the scars of the crucifixion.... in his hands at least.

Here is something else I've considered re the second person of the Godhead. Not sure if it will fly. As God is Spirit, God manifested to the Angels as an Angel know to them as Michael (the name meaning 'as like unto God') but that's a bit off track for this topic.

 

[St. SteVen]

The fall was a tragedy in that the human family lost its potential to fully develop 'made in the image of God' but God in his wisdom took what was to our great disadvantage and made our destiny more glorious though great risk and suffering to himself.

I'm pretty sure God wasn't caught by surprise. Not a Plan B situation.

(have you ever wondered/thought that every violation among the children of men towards themselves, other men/ women and his creation is felt by God intensely?)

Yes. I think that is quite possible.

The whole intelligent Universe is gob smacked as they see the slaughtered lamb (revelation) as God's solution to the problem of suffering and sin. A solution nobody expected.

For the most part, the Good News is no longer news.

/

 

[quietthinker]

For the most part, the Good News is no longer news.

/

I think those who have been dished up a mediocre message and assume that is it, have a dawning yet to experience and be gobsmacked, even brought to tears of the wonder of the slaughtered lamb.....in the midst of the throne

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
For the most part, the Good News is no longer news.

I think those who have been dished up a mediocre message and assume that is it, have a dawning yet to experience and be gobsmacked, even brought to tears of the wonder of the slaughtered lamb.....in the midst of the throne

I agree.
In the mean time, what can be done to make the Good News ACTUAL news? (watch for topic)

/