Were We Alive In Heaven Before We Were Born?

[MA2444]

The word 'breath' and 'spirit' are used interchangeably. There is no seperate conscious entity called 'spirit' just as there is no separate conscious entity called 'soul'. Folk get themselves in a tangled mess when these terms are given something seperate and other to the whole person.
We are souls with the spirit (breath) of life, ie we are living souls that are subject to death when the life force (the spirit, the breath) is cancelled.

So you really are only the man in the mirror?

That goes against about half the entirety of scriptures.

 

[quietthinker]

Wouldn't that mean that we don't have a spirit in the afterlife if we give up the spirit (breath) at physical death?

How does that work in your view?

/

We go nowhere at death. We cease to be.....until the resurrection, whether that's one hour or thousands of years at either the first or the second resurrection.
There is no storage of 'souls' or 'spirits' as conscious entities anywhere anytime.

 

[St. SteVen]

We go nowhere at death. We cease to be.....until the resurrection, whether that's one hour or thousands of years at either the first or the second resurrection.
There is no storage of 'souls' or 'spirits' as conscious entities anywhere anytime.

I have probably shared this before;

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

/

 

[quietthinker]

I have probably shared this before;

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

/

Folk acknowledging defeat by recognising that Jesus is Lord does not constitute them loving the Lord or wanting a part of his Kingdom.....which is self sacrifice.

 

[St. SteVen]

Folk acknowledging defeat by recognising that Jesus is Lord does not constitute them loving the Lord or wanting a part of his Kingdom.....which is self sacrifice.

The definition of "acknowledge" is important to note. (see below)
It is NOT acknowledging defeat.
it is whole-heartedly, openly, and without reservation, fully agreeing that Jesus Christ is Lord.
A confession of faith.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

/

 

[MA2444]

--- PARODY ---

Church Greeter: Welcome to church!
Church Visitor: Thanks, my first time here.
Church Greeter: Great, we are glad you are here. One question...
Church Visitor: Uh, okay. What is it?
Church Greeter: Are you Born Again of our Lord Jesus already or seeking?
Church Visitor: I'm just a first time visitor! I am a Christian!
Church Greeter: Have a seat anywhere you like Brother...
Church Visitor: Seriously?
Church Greeter: Yes, the Bible tells us that many things are evil, and with the presence of evil on the rise in the world we started screening visitors to ensure they safety of the congregation...
Church Visitor: You do know that there is a HUGE difference between LGBQ and TIA, right?
Church Greeter: WHy would you say something like that? Are you one of those type people?
Church Visitor: You can argue that LGBQ is not genetic, but clearly TIA are genetic.
Church Greeter: So I'm not sure I understand you. Are you repenting such a lifestyle and seeking the Lord's guidance in it?
Church Visitor: Obviously Not. God made me like this and loves me and I love God.
Church Greeter: Are you LGBTQIA+, or not? If you are not seeking the Lord or repentant to the lifestyle then we have to ask you to leave, you can use that door right over there.
Church Visitor: I'm pretty sure this isn't going to work. Goodbye.

That's sorta how I would have handled it.

Now it may have been different if the man said I am not those people, just looking for new church because my church started accepting all types of gays into it and I wanted to be sure that this church did not also...

Then it would have been, sure, have a seat anywhere!
But that's not how those conversations go and you know it.

 

[St. SteVen]

That's sorta how I would have handled it.

What changed since post #235 where you wrote this:

They need a new church greeter? I would have handled that much differently.

Now you say you would have handled it that way.

Now it may have been different if the man said I am not those people, just looking for new church because my church started accepting all types of gays into it and I wanted to be sure that this church did not also...

Then it would have been, sure, have a seat anywhere!
But that's not how those conversations go and you know it.

A parody is written to make a point.
You should try it. Write a parody that would make your point.

You may find that it is more difficult than it looks.
Or you you make take to it easily.

Church Greeter: "Sure, have a seat anywhere!
We don't allow gays, but bigots are most welcomed here."

/

 

[Mr E]

I'm still trying to determine where and what Heaven is.
So to determine if we were somewhere before we were somewhere else, I would need to know where the origen is.

For instance, If the Kingdom of heaven is within you, where should I being my excavation?
Is it in my heart, my mind, my conscience, my belly.
None of these existed before conception. According to the flesh.

The only component left is the spirit.
What is the spirit?
Where does it come from?

We are the body. The spirit is within and without. The spirit comes from God. If you recognize God as the Father-- the children of God are spirit.

Spirit gives birth to spirit.

 

[Mr E]

I'm telling you. Your beliefs line up with Mormons. You should get a hold of that church if you really believe that.

Don't your SDA beliefs kind of line up with JW's and Mormons alike concerning Michael, the angel?

 

[Mr E]

The battleground is our mind. Our spirit and our soul is at battle to control the flesh!

The soil (battleground) where the struggle occurs is the flesh. It's you. You are the clay they fight over and like the kingdom is within, the battle is within. No one can serve two masters-- one must overcome the other. It's spiritual warfare and your soul is the journal record of the battle that is occurring.

 

[Mr E]

Bible says God alone has immortality-we don't.
1 Tim 6:16
It is he alone who has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see; to him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

You are not immortal.

That means only that God doesn't die. Eternal life (offered and available to us) is not the same as "immortality" which is not offered to us, because each of us -- every one of us humans (including Jesus) die.

You live and then you die--- it's appointed. And to inherit 'eternal life' you must be born again. You live and then you die. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Mr E]

He told me that He talks to everyone all day long but either they can't hear Him or reject Him and what He says.

I took this to mean that it is through our spirit and our conscience. Many people thinking it might go like this in their thoughts....

Hey maybe I can get with that one girl tonight?
(Immediately from the conscience But you're Married and do love your Wife! (The Lord)
Well it's only one night and I still think she cheated that one time still...
Don't do it. It's the wrong thing to do. Those things are never hidden long, everything comes out...
Nah, I can talk my way out of it, lol. (arrogant overconfidence)

And that guy thinks that this was just him thinking his thoughts. He had no clue that God was speaking to him through the spirit.

The Lord said to me, all day long. He used those words so maybe we're just looking at a simple identity crises? How many voices are in your head? Most people say, One. I think, therefore I am. But I pay attention when I hear a thought (voice). the carnal is easy to identify. He was the one who did want the girl. He will always go against what the spirit (conscience) says. So we have a spirit with a voice. We have a soul with a voice. We have the Holy Spirit. We have available the still small voice of God.

How do you "know" you are hearing the still small voice of God? How do you hear the still small voice of God? Can you get God to turn up the volume?! The answer is yes.

At first you have to sorta strain in faith to hear Him. Ask Him a question and then be quiet and listen inside of you for God to respond. Search for His voice. And this is how it happens: Something will pop into your head. A thought or a scripture. You have to take it in faith that God is speaking. You must acknowledge God in your focus and attention. And receive God's words as God's words.

So that means reach out in faith and grasp whatever the thought or scripture was which popped into your head and receive it as God's answer to you.
Then! You take the answer to His word and it must agree with the entirety of scripture. So if it does (and it wil!) then apply the answer to your original question and your life. And more often than not, you will find that, that was no random thought of mine, God did answer me. And it was a biblical answer. So it makes you want to go from there and do it again...and let the conversation continue! Talk your friend who is closer than a Brother some more. And I kid you not Brothers and Sisters, it turned into a regular conversation. I was indeed hearing the still small voice of God! Wow!!

It's every day now, lol. And I took note over time that, He doesnt talk like I do or like I think. There's a significant difference in His grammer and speech patterns and stuff. He talks exactly like He did in the Bible. So now that I am used to what He sounds like, it's like He did turn the volume up. If I have a a voice in my mind, there is no confusion as to who is speaking. Sometimes He wakes me up. Sometimes He says no. SOmetimes He says stuff that I dont want to agree to. I dont want to do that.

Do you know why He wrote the Bible to be so vague and without details that are easily seen? (Lol, wait for it...!)

So you might come to Him and ask Him the details. He loves small talk! I know His favorite kind of car, lol. He will answer right now many many questions. Not all questions though. I've had Him give me the silent treatment before. He's even changed the subject on me and even told me that is not for you to know.
I turned on the Radio in the truck one time (He was with me). He told me to turn it off! I did turn it off. I havent turned it back on since! He told me to not watch the news either. He said if there is something that I need to know then He will tell me.

So He has a great sense of humor too, lol!

He said before He wants for people to be able to hear His still small voice and obey instantly. Without having to make a show of it to prove Himself by having to do miracles all the time. So learning to hear His still small voice is crucial. And to obey Instantly. (He said that twice IIRC)

Yes, there are inner promptings of the spirit. And yes-- God can speak to us by the spirit and through others. Isn't this the true understanding of angels? Angels deliver the word as messengers sent to us-- the spirit within others.

 

[Mr E]

I *think* the first time I heard the still small voice of God (I didnt realize it at the time but I sure did hear it). I was living back in Colorado after my major traffic accident and surgery. I had my grown kids living with me again. And I woke up to the sound of both my sons fighting. It was getting very loud and I could hear things being damaged. So I got up and went out and broke it up and yelled at them a little bit. Tempers were still high and my younger son started talking smack and being very disrespectful to me. I wasnt even charging those boys rent. Being their father and also their host of a roof over their head (They were mid to upper 20's), I cautioned the younger son that he better watch his mouth with me. And he came out with such a mouthful of disrespectful slurs that I knew that, this can not be. So I decked him. And the fight was on. Mostly a wrestling match. But then we broke apart and he snatches up his cell phone and says, I'm gonna have you arrested for assault.

I laughed and didnt think anything of it. They cops showed up and one came inside to get my my side of the story and both kids went outside with another cop. And gave their story. After the cops comapared notes they decided to believe the kids indytead of the truth. Those cops showed up within 10 minutes of him calling them. My sons became friends again and double teamed me to the cos and backed each other up. So the cops told me, if we have to come back here I will be Arrested. So the cops left..

"Winning" with the cops only empowered my son to start talking smack again as soon as the cops left. But went even further and was trying to taunt me and all sorts of stuff. So I did what any stupid dad would do, I decked him again! (I dont think I over-reacted).

And he snatched up his phone and started dialing. I didnt want to be arrested so I took off waking out the door. I knew he cops would return fast. (My truck had a bad starter at that moment in time, lol!). So I was walking and praying all the way. Lord please dont let me be arrested! I continued to pray and walk. I couldnt go far because this was only about 6 months after I had that big crash (where God save dmy ife!) so I could not walk far from home. Lord please help me! Dont let me be arrested! And it was about a block and a half from my house that I heard a voice inside of me. I heard it clearly. It said, turn right at this corner. I hoping and faithing and crying out to my Lord and had to believe that this is the Lord and He is helping me! So I turned right. Then I heard it again. Go left up the alley. Then go to the right here. Go to the left. Sit here for now and rest (in the sun! Son?!!) Get up wak left go quickly...and so it went. This went on for like 45 minutes to an hour. The police had three cars looking for me to arrest me. They could not find me. And I never left a 8 or 10 block area (?) the whole time? Sometimes I would be crossing an intersection and would look up the street and several times I saw police cars i the distance crossing an intersection a few blocks down! Then after about an hour of this I hear the voice say it's ok now you can go bac home. So I began praising God and thanking Him! Then I thought, Uh-Oh what's going to happen when I get back home again? So I prayed again, Lord please let the spirit of peace descend upon my house! It was all I had! So I rolled with it and went home.

And when I walked in my house again I got the shock of my life, lol. Both my kids were very verrry apologetic and peaceful to me. It was like night and day. Praise the Lord. If that aint straight out of Psalm 91 I dont know what is then!

But the voice that led me around the neighbrohood was different than the still small voice that I hear today. Maybe it was His still small voice? Maybe it was the Holy Spirit? Or even an Angel on Assignment? I think it must have been the Holy Spirit speaking to me. I didnt recognize the voice ike I did the audible voice of Jesus.

So the Lord's Holy Spirit rescued me that day. That voice was louder within me than the still small voice of God, which is Jesus.

True story!

This is grrrrrrreat! I had a similar incident with my young son-- he had come home from college and hadn't yet landed a summer job and when I mentioned that he needed to treat finding a job as his job until he finds one-- he got smart-mouthed. I popped him and he instantly hit me back, then ran-- shouting that he was going to call the cops.

He didn't-- and now years later admits it was just what he needed at the time..... and now he is a cop! Probably will serve him well as he attends similar calls some day.

 

[Mr E]

Yes there are spirits that enter bodies to be alive. They call it the womb of heaven where the spirits await their bodies at birth. That is clearly the nature behind possession as well.

The womb and the tomb are considered in the same manner.

 

[Mr E]

God is not a God of hate… And I believe there was an earth age before this one, and I can document that.

So what Esau did to be hated happened before he was born.

I think God hates sin, not just strongly dislikes it.

Hopefully you recognize the impossibility of Esau having done anything before he was physically born. So then, it was spirit that existed before and it was that spirit that was in Esau that God found offensive.

 

[Mr E]

Were we alive before we were born?

I believe God knows the plan for each of us before we are born, and what purpose he has planned for each of us.
I don't believe we are as you say "alive" , but in the sense that God has knowledge of who we are and what our potential is.
Was Esau bad from the womb? Was he a bad seed? Is this a tare sown with the wheat?
Can God turn tares into wheat?
I believe he can if we confess our sin, repent and follow him.

Gen 25:23
And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Gen 25:24
And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
Gen 25:25
And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.
Gen 25:26
And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.

Gen 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The greatest enmity is between Love which is of God, and Hate which is of the devil.

Now comes an interesting twist of events.

Isaac loved Esau because of the venison, but Rabekah loved Jacob.
So could one say that because of Isaacs (lust) for meat, which Esau provided, it blinded him from what was in Esau's heart?

And another question:

Mat 23:19
Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

So if the "altar" represents that which offers the gift.
Here we have Esau which honors his father by hunting for his desire for venison.
And you have Jacob which honors his mother by being deceptive, which she is willing to take the fault for.

Potter's clay, Law.

Why is this story in the bible? Does it have anything to do with the Gospel?

Rom 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Will God show mercy to Esau? That's for God to know. He is the Judge.

The Law says:
Deu 5:16
Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Now we see that one son honoured his father and the other son honoured his mother.
And yet both sinned. Esau because he held hate in his heart towards Jacob, and Jacob because he decieved Esau.. twice.
And the first was worst than the second, because the first decision came from himself and not by his mother.

So How does one justify this law? It does not say father OR mother, it says AND.

Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
and:
Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

To the Jew first

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 2:10
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11
For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
Rom 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

So we ask, what will happen to Esau? And I hear...

Jhn 21:20
Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
Jhn 21:21
Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Jhn 21:22
Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

Trust God, He knows what he's doing. Keep your eye on your own path.


Hugs

Seeds and weeds..... sown in the same soil.

 

[Mr E]

I am not God. I don't know all his plans.

God is God.

 

[MA2444]

Yes, there are inner promptings of the spirit. And yes-- God can speak to us by the spirit and through others. Isn't this the true understanding of angels? Angels deliver the word as messengers sent to us-- the spirit within others.

They are all busy! I met an Angel (unawares) one time who came to my garage sale! He wouldn't let me realize he is an Angel until after he left!
I'm almost positive it was the Holy Spirit that stopped me from being arrested one day.
It was Jesus that came and spoke audibly to me one time.

Then I've had words of knowledge or messages from people for me from God a few times. And yet another guy acted like he slipped and might not have been supposed to tell me what the Lord told him about me. But I did get it out of him! I was too curious to leave it alone, lol.
One time God told me through an online friend that God told him to tell me to give my business to my son and move to Ohio. Then the same guy began telling e all about my private life which he had no way of knowing, which was my confirmation from God that, his message was real and He wanted me in Ohio! (Here I am).
Another time a guy called me from out of state, a stranger and said to me, God gave him my phone number and told him to tell me my financial situation will improve if I cut something out of my life that I was holding on to. (I did it!)

So yeah, just like you say, the spirit within others. But is not one Spirit all the time?

 

[MA2444]

This is grrrrrrreat! I had a similar incident with my young son-- he had come home from college and hadn't yet landed a summer job and when I mentioned that he needed to treat finding a job as his job until he finds one-- he got smart-mouthed. I popped him and he instantly hit me back, then ran-- shouting that he was going to call the cops.

He didn't-- and now years later admits it was just what he needed at the time..... and now he is a cop! Probably will serve him well as he attends similar calls some day.

Wow that's something! Maybe I should'a popped him again? Lol!

I've popped my older son before too but he's never fought back like the younger one has. The last time I ever popped my older son I wasnt trying to but I gave him two black eyes, and he had to wear those around with me at work. That must have been bad for him but he learned something and fell right into line and is now married w kids and doing lots better than his little brother.

 

[quietthinker]

The definition of "acknowledge" is important to note. (see below)
It is NOT acknowledging defeat.
it is whole-heartedly, openly, and without reservation, fully agreeing that Jesus Christ is Lord.
A confession of faith.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

/

'Faith' in the sense that Jesus and the Apostles use it is to trust. Trust is a precious 'commodity' because it believes what is said.
Those in the second resurrection acknowledges Jesus as Lord but have no faith in him in the same sense that I believe Satan is Lord of Demons or Prince of this World yet I have no faith (trust) in him.