St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Agree.
But on that basis what is the purpose of the "every tongue" confession (acknowledgement) that Jesus is Lord?
A forced confession against their will? To what end?
/
Were We Alive In Heaven Before We Were Born?
- Thread starter MA2444
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
But on that basis what is the purpose of the "every tongue" confession (acknowledgement) that Jesus is Lord?
A forced confession against their will? To what end?
/
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
It'll be forced, not in the sense of a gun to the head but in the sense of overwhelming awareness of the Justice of God. Denial is swept away.....even Satan will go to his knees acknowledging God's ways are right and just. This does not mean their hearts are aligned with God's values nor do they want them to be.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
The purpose being God is vindicated even by those opposed to him let alone the whole loyal Universe praising him. It'll be a confession drawn from denial and delusion swept away by the sheer weight of evidence.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Gloating seems rather small of him.
I was hoping for a more glorious and positive outcome.
/
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I don't think God will be gloating. I rather think that God will have tears in his eyes because his bright shinning star chose to alienate himself from life.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Wow.
Quite the big production to end in a flop.
Not like he didn't see it coming. Oh, wait...
This has to work for the best because he COULD see it coming.
Even Jesus cautioned about counting the cost before we begin.
But his Father didn't? !!! What's wrong with this picture?
/
God does not gloat, Brother. The outcome will be more glorious than you expect. It has not entered into the mind of man nor could be comprehended by man, the beautiful and glorious things that He has in store for us! Don't limit God with your thinking, lol! Dream bigger!
He went to prepare a place for us. He's been working on it for a little over 2000 years now. And He made the universe and earth in 6 days! So how nice is it going to be?!
They prolly have your mansion built and perhaps even furnished by now?! With the Glory of God built in as the Light Source! Maybe even nicer? I can comprehend that!
I think that you are right. Or, how about the day that the Lord has to tell all those people, I never knew you begone from me? That will not be a good day for our Lord.
What's wrong is that you fail to consider the Lord's compassion that He holds for us in His heart. The amount of it. God was so good to those He created in Heaven by giving them free will and apparently too many gifts? And one being got uppity and in trouble, then he went and corrupted the Lord creation by enticing them to sin. This damaged mans soul(s) in a very spiritually significant manner.
The way I understand it is, God could wave his hand and everything would be pure again and no sin. But in doing that it would destroy His previous creation. Like a computer program that starts glitching. You can wipe the program and reload it and start anew, but all previous data will be lost. (That's you with your personality as it is, as the Lord created you, but you have damage and he wants to keep you original. He loves you for who you are, So instead of a wipe/reload, He has to go in and patch the existing program so to speak. To save you. To save me. To save all of us.
There wont be a 100% rescue of all people. Some have chosen death. But that the Lord is taking so long in His Rescue Mission doesnt mean it is a flop. It means it was as successful as possible. So it is a success. And you never know, you might be the last one they find and pull from the water before calling the mission off? You wouldnt be calling it a flop then!
One more, Lord. One more.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
Gloating seems rather small of him.
I was hoping for a more glorious and positive outcome.
The image of God gloating in his victory seemed wrong.
I am dreaming BIGGER. Prolly bigger than you?
/
Gloating seems rather small of him.
I was hoping for a more glorious and positive outcome.
Yes, that was my point actually.
The image of God gloating in his victory seemed wrong.
I am dreaming BIGGER. Prolly bigger than you?
/
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
We are in agreement on this bit.
This is where we part company, and where I am dreaming BIGGER.
I believe in Ultimate Redemption for all of humankind.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
/
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
When one gives unrestrained choice to ones creatures; when one loves because that's God's nature, vulnerability is front, left and centre and being exploited a real possibility. Lucifer, the shinning bright angel chose to exploit, the scripture telling us it was unremitting pride which drove him.
Yes, God knows the end from the beginning yet he loved sufficiently to create intelligent beings with free will.....cuz ultimately, love will/ can do no other.
A flop? I don't think so. If you genuinely love your wife and she betrays you; thumbs her nose at you, goes off with another, do you then stop loving her? Maybe you would or is your love conditional on what you get from her? Would you rather not have loved? Would your love be classified as a flop?
Scripture tells us God's love is unstoppable....it perseveres even to death....even while retaining the power to put an end to the whole sordid humiliating show yet choosing only that which love will choose.
It cost God's Son his life.....even the limitation of a body for eternity. This is something in our present state we can't fully get our head around. Is it thought a light thing? I think it will be the wonder, the admiration, the praise and study of all God's people throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
We both agree on a good outcome. (not a flop) But we arrive there from different perspectives.
Something interesting happens when I point out what the view of the church looks like to me.
In this case, readers may conclude that I am claiming the end will be a flop. I'm not.
On the contrary, in fact.
What I am saying is that "a flop" is the rational conclusion of what we have been taught.
I am questioning what we were told should never be questioned.
Here's the facts. (as I see them)
A success rate that declares that "few will find it" = a flop
Consequences for failing to solve the puzzle = eternal separation (whatever that means)
Eternal separation doesn't resolve the issue = a flop
Much more to say on this. I'll stop there.
I don't think we've seen the end of the Good News story.
What we know of the Good News is no longer even news.
God loves a good story. I don't think he will concede this one to a flop.
Does any of this resonate with you? Or better explain where I'm coming from?
We don't need to agree. If we understand each other, that's enough. IMHO
/
I have noticed those type of statements in scripture and wondered that myself. But I'm unable to reconcile all those other scriptures. wide/narrow gates, few there be that find it and all sorts of scritpures say that most wont make it. If God somehow redeems all of humankind...it's above me to understand how.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
The only way I can reconcile the wide/narrow gates is to view it as referring to this mortal life.
There is "life" to be found on this side of the afterlife. And consequences if we don't (can't) find it.
Matthew 7:13 NIV
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road
that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
COMPARE
Matthew 7:13-14 YLT (Young's Literal Translation)
`Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide [is] the gate, and broad the way
that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it;
14 how strait [is] the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!
/
Exactly. I'm pert darn sure that this is instruction to go after the spiritual, what is unseen...and to let go of the physical world. To be led by the spirit and not by the world or flesh. Our purification is by fire here on earth and a lucky few will overcome and find it. Those who can't find it during their lifetime here...go to the lake of fire? Does the lake of fire purify them over a period of time, to be saved later?
I do know that I have heard multiple peoples say people will regret not doing more and trying harder while on earth and they had time to do more that is good. So it's up to us, do we purify ourselves here on earth or later in the afterlife where it will take oh so much longer?
There's much more to it than that, but you are so married to your idea that you will never dance with another. Kind of a theological Mike Pence-- you won't even have coffee with any idea but your own.
Your "ultimate redemption" premise creeps into every conversation. When and where it runs counter to scripture, you ignore those portions of scripture, choosing to brush those off while shining portions that you think support the idea.
In 1 Cor 15-- yes, it does say that in Adam all die.... and it does say in Christ all will be made alive. That doesn't mean that all will be saved and live forever. It doesn't say 'that' -- in fact, Paul explains it much differently, if you were to read all he wrote, instead of cherry-picking one verse to shine.
He puts it in terms of being in a heavenly house- the house of the Father, which is eternal-- or being away from that house, and absent from the Lord, and in a mortal house of flesh. We are not now, what we will become later. What we are now is but a down payment on our heavenly house, which is spirit. 2 Cor 5. Here's the thing-- he is contrasting spirit and flesh. Life and death. So though we are alive in the flesh, here and now-- this earthly plane is the abode of death. Everything here is dying and dies, and so by extension of the metaphor-- everything here is already dead (from the spiritual perspective).
The reconciliation that you think of as being somehow 'universal' is not. It is reserved for those who follow Christ and are raised from death to life in and through the spirit. Not for everyone, but only for those that "follow him" back to the Father and are found (judged) to be worthy of him and are thus rewarded and received and not 'cut off' from the tree of life, having their names erased from the book of life.
Paul says- we (who follow Christ) are therefore full of courage and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So then whether we are alive (in spirit) or away (in the flesh), we make it our ambition to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be paid back according to what he has done while in the body, whether good or evil.
The important concept is that we are not from here. We are from there^^^^^^ and from the perspective of where we are from we have fallen to this place. In Adam (in the flesh) all die. We must rise from the dead and follow the one who overcomes the world- the Christ and like him, become overcomers of the world and return to the Father's house from whence we came. Not everyone will enter in. Scripture is clear on this.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when an individuals deeds are laid bare for all to see.
Better to lose that eye or hand, Jesus said. (figuratively, of course)
/
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Your argument is that all doesn't mean all. Here's an explanation that was provided.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.
If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.
The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.
Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.
But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).
Therefore, all means all in both instances.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
/
