Revealing the Sons of God.

[Rex]

I find it difficult to follow everything your trying to point out, and still I don't know when you predict this event did or will happen.

I believe it happened at the time of Christ ascended to the throne.
Revelation 12;8
And no longer was a place found for them in heaven ant longer. As you pointed out Satan had access to the throne after he was cast out Adam and Eve event.

You don't think Jesus is going to allow Satan to come before the throne and accuse the saved threw the work he just accomplished do you?
As soon as He came home to the Father, Satan was shown the door. No place left and no one to accuse any longer, now that Jesus intercedes for our sins.
John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

I noticed you left out Rev 12:10
[sup]10 [/sup]Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

I looks pretty clear to me, salvation strength, the power of Christ all came at the cross. Now remember Satan is now no long allowed in heaven. When?.......... when the power of His Christ came home.
a loud voice saying in heaven........the power of His Christ have come,

 

[veteran]

I find it difficult to follow everything your trying to point out, and still I don't know when you predict this event did or will happen.

I believe it happened at the time of Christ ascended to the throne.
Revelation 12;8
And no longer was a place found for them in heaven ant longer. As you pointed out Satan had access to the throne after he was cast out Adam and Eve event.

Christ said in Luke 10 that He saw Satan as lignting fall from heaven. That was about Satan's original rebellion of old against God, even BEFORE the time of Adam and Eve in God's Garden of Eden. Satan as "that old serpent" in Eden was already in his role as tempter by the time of Adam and Eve. Sounds like you missed the anti-type examples about the cherub Satan which God gave in Ezekiel 28. Some of those things there cannot be applied to any flesh historical king.

The fact that the casting out event of Rev.12:7 forward INCLUDES events given with the time, times, and half a time (1260 days, or 3.5 years) means it's tied to the Daniel prophecy about the time power is given over the saints (also per Rev.13:4-7). Something else Christ pointed us to in Rev.12. At the Rev.12:3-4 verses that is Satan's original rebellion of old being described there when he drew a third of the stars (angels) with him in rebellion, and attached to that time of old is a beast kingdom that had ten horns, seven heads, but ONLY seven crowns. That one is given in contrast to the one for the end in Rev.13:1 that's to have ten crowns instead of seven (I missed that association for a long time, just as many still miss it today because of not understanding God's Word about the time of Satan's first rebellion prior to Adam and Eve).

You don't think Jesus is going to allow Satan to come before the throne and accuse the saved threw the work he just accomplished do you?

When that war of Rev.12:7 occurs in our near future, and Satan and his angels are cast down to this earth, in person, de facto, he won't be able to go near God's throne in Heaven to accuse anymore forever. He will be right here on earth in our earthly dimension accusing us directly instead. Most likely you'll live to see it, so you might want to study up on Christ's forewarning about some of us being delivered up to give a Testimony for Him by The Holy Spirit (Mark 13).

As soon as He came home to the Father, Satan was shown the door. No place left and no one to accuse any longer, now that Jesus intercedes for our sins.
John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

That doctrine is Preterism, the idea that Christ's Kingdom is now established on earth via His reign in Heaven. That's why many Preterists wrongly treat Christ's future second coming as a 'spiritual' coming only, and not His literal return to reign here on earth in Person like God's Word reveals for the near future. Christ later said this after that...

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
(KJV)

See, the problem is, Satan is not literally 'locked' in his pit prison until when??? Not until right after Christ's second coming, which is still... future to us (Rev.20:1-3). So where is he, for he is not locked in the pit in chains just yet? If you say he's here on earth, then where? He's still... in the heavenly dimension directing affairs over this earth which God has given him power to do. But he is coming directly to this earth, in OUR dimension in our near future as the final Antichrist to deceive the whole world into bowing to him in place of Christ. That's the matter our Lord Jesus is covering in the John 14 verse. This is why the Rev.13 chapter continues the subject about the "dragon" from Rev.12...

Rev 13:4-9
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
(KJV)

And per the Rev.12:9 verse, who is the "dragon"?



[quote]I noticed you left out Rev 12:10
[sup]10 [/sup]Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.[/quote]

Didn't leave it out. You skipped over it.


[quote]I looks pretty clear to me, salvation strength, the power of Christ all came at the cross. Now remember Satan is now no long allowed in heaven. When?.......... when the power of His Christ came home.
a loud voice saying in heaven........the power of His Christ have come,
[/quote]

What makes you think this is denying the Power of Christ through His Blood shed upon the cross? Christ defeated both death and the devil by His crucifixion (Heb.2:14). But His Salvation upon the earth has still not come yet, for it includes His literal Kingdom established here on earth with His reigning here in Person with His saints.

You're being mistaught because Satan is still given work to do yet upon this earth, especially for the future tribulation time when he will literally appear on this earth. Doesn't appear you're at all ready for that coming event because of those you're listening to.

 

[Rex]

Well........ I strongly disagree

Everything or every thread I've seen here that is prophesy related, I see you.
i don't know whether to be happy or sad for you. What I have seen is that it's useless to discuss prophet books here unless you simply enjoy being told whats what by those that presume they have it all figured out. In short there is no discussion.

Have a good evening God Bless

You're being mistaught because Satan is still given work to do yet upon this earth, especially for the future tribulation time when he will literally appear on this earth. Doesn't appear you're at all ready for that coming event because of those you're listening to.

I missed your closing remark, I'll be honest I grew tired of trying to follow your description. Mostly because you didn't reply to the topic but feel to the need to simply expound on your entire revelation. I apologize for not continuing but I'm steering clear.

As far as being ready I'm in no fear of not knowing, or should I say being made aware threw the Spirit. The Lord threw the Spirit has shown and a wakened me may times in my life, I hardly fear Him not tapping on my heart before he returns.

On the other hand haven't you heard that the kingdom of heaven does not come under "your" observation?
Luke 17:20

 

[logabe]

You've got a major problem with that theory, because the Revelation 20 Scripture shows the "nations" still existing on earth and ALIVE 'during' Christ's thousand years reign. If you'll look carefully, right after the thousand years Satan is loosed one final time to go deceive those nations to come upon the "breadth of the earth" against the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city". That is PRIOR to God's great white throne judgment.

Christ also showed in Rev.22:14-15 the unjust still kicking with being outside the gates of the holy city during His thousand years reign.



That last statement is a false affirmation. The majority of Christ's Church today are awaiting the future tribulation and future return of Christ.

What are you talking about Veteran? I never said there
wouldn't be unbelieving nations in the Tabernacles Age.

Daniel tells us how it will come about. Dan. 2:35 says,

35 "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the
silver and the gold were crushed all at the
same time and became like chaff from the
summer threshing floors ; and the wind
carried them away so that not a trace of
them was found. But the stone that struck
the statue became a great mountain and
filled the whole earth.

Notice it was a stone, but over time it turned into a mountain.
In the Tabernacles Age there will be unbelieving nations, but
as time goes on they will want to be in the Kingdom Of God.
Isaiah 2:2-4 confirms what Daniel says, and Paul spoke in Rom.
8:21 about the untimate Plan that God had spoke through His
prophets. Dan. 7:25 also confirms what Isaiah and Paul said
about the coming ages.

25 'He will speak out against the Most High and
wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he
will intend to make alterations in times and in law ;
and they will be given into his hand for a time,
times, and half a time.
27 'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the
greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole
heaven will be given to the people of the saints
of the Highest One ; His kingdom will be an
everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will
serve and obey Him.'

There will be nations that want serve the Lord, but the Plan is
over time all nations will serve Him whether we like it or not.
You see, it like watching a Roy Rogers show, you know Roy
will win in the end.

Logabe

 

[veteran]

What are you talking about Veteran? I never said there
wouldn't be unbelieving nations in the Tabernacles Age.

Daniel tells us how it will come about. Dan. 2:35 says,

35 "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the
silver and the gold were crushed all at the
same time and became like chaff from the
summer threshing floors ; and the wind
carried them away so that not a trace of
them was found. But the stone that struck
the statue became a great mountain and
filled the whole earth.

Notice it was a stone, but over time it turned into a mountain.
In the Tabernacles Age there will be unbelieving nations, but
as time goes on they will want to be in the Kingdom Of God.
Isaiah 2:2-4 confirms what Daniel says, and Paul spoke in Rom.
8:21 about the untimate Plan that God had spoke through His
prophets. Dan. 7:25 also confirms what Isaiah and Paul said
about the coming ages.

25 'He will speak out against the Most High and
wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he
will intend to make alterations in times and in law ;
and they will be given into his hand for a time,
times, and half a time.
27 'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the
greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole
heaven will be given to the people of the saints
of the Highest One ; His kingdom will be an
everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will
serve and obey Him.'

There will be nations that want serve the Lord, but the Plan is
over time all nations will serve Him whether we like it or not.
You see, it like watching a Roy Rogers show, you know Roy
will win in the end.

Logabe

Sounds like Full Preterism again, which is a false doctrine. All peoples and nations today are NOT going to convert to Christ Jesus. Nor will they during Christ's future Millennium reign here on earth either, as the end of Zechariah 14 shows.

And the John 5:28-29 reveals that all... the dead are resurrected at the time of Christ's second coming, which was my main point about how you tried to explain the idea of the resurrections in Rev.20.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

I have some sympathy with Rex's difficulty in following what you've laid out in your last few posts, but I thank you for bringing another view to attention. You know that this is not my subject area, but, here are a few points I would raise in light of your various statements. I don't want to take time to quote them precisely, as anyone reading is following.

The first is your statement that Satan himself will be the AntiChrist. At least, that's the way I read what you said. The reason I question it, is that on two of the occasions Jesus spoke to Satan himself, both times they were in a man - Peter and Judas.

There are also:
Zechariah 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. I take this to be the ultimate 'accuser' stance of Satan against our Lord Himself.

And,

Job 1: 7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

As Job was an Elamite, this discussion took place in the days of Noah, after the flood.


The other reference to angels on earth - which would be reasonable if there are already fallen angels on earth - is Jacob's dream:

Genesis 28:12 '... and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

I put to you that when Jesus echoed what Jacob had seen, He was promising a change in perception, mainly, to do with spiritual vision, being that the angels of God have (probably) been ascending and descending for as long as the serpent and his legions first arrived here - the latter being half the number of the former.

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.


The other pointer towards Satan and his emissaries being here, is the whole matter of demonic attachment to territories, objects and humans, which is validated not only by Jesus, but by His disciples, by the seventy whom He sent out, by the gift of discernment of spirits, and by John's instructions on how to recognise a spirit is not of God.

When that war of Rev.12:7 occurs in our near future, and Satan and his angels are cast down to this earth, in person, de facto, he won't be able to go near God's throne in Heaven to accuse anymore forever. He will be right here on earth in our earthly dimension accusing us directly instead.

Are you really saying you don't believe there are any evil spirits 'on earth', at all, yet?

I've 'never heard' the interpretation of John 14:30, which you gave. For me, 'the prince of this world cometh' has always been about His betrayal, His 'trial' (which we know was unjust), and His battle on the cross.

This is elucidated in various scriptures, but particularly in Psalm 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head... 12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong [bulls] of Bashan have beset me round. 13 They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion... 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet... 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion's mouth...'

Dogs, (Baal worshippers - human sacrifice), bulls of Bashan, (another form of idolatry), 'the lion' - the old lion who roars to create fear and chaos - all speak of Satan's army, when held against Paul's comments about 'the cup of devils' associated with worshipping idols. 1 Corinthians 10:20. Thus, I am sceptical that Satan will make himself more obvious than he is now, because both he and all his followers need a vehicle - a body - through which to operate. Hence, 'the AntiChrist' may well be a man, a figurehead, wholly given to evil, whose body is fully at the disposal of Satan.


Have I misunderstood what you've said? If not, how do you explain authority to deliver from evil spirits?

 

[veteran]

Well........ I strongly disagree

Everything or every thread I've seen here that is prophesy related, I see you.
i don't know whether to be happy or sad for you. What I have seen is that it's useless to discuss prophet books here unless you simply enjoy being told whats what by those that presume they have it all figured out. In short there is no discussion.

Have a good evening God Bless



I missed your closing remark, I'll be honest I grew tired of trying to follow your description. Mostly because you didn't reply to the topic but feel to the need to simply expound on your entire revelation. I apologize for not continuing but I'm steering clear.

As far as being ready I'm in no fear of not knowing, or should I say being made aware threw the Spirit. The Lord threw the Spirit has shown and a wakened me may times in my life, I hardly fear Him not tapping on my heart before he returns.

On the other hand haven't you heard that the kingdom of heaven does not come under "your" observation?
Luke 17:20

I replied to the topic alright, you're just used to following a tradition of men like Preterism instead studying God's Word in-depth for yourself. And you are not alone in that.

I picked up on your Preterism rhetoric from the start, which was why I offered to show you those things in Rev.12 which Preterism denies. There's different degrees of the Preterism doctrine, but the strongest version treats Christ's Kingdom as having come here on earth 'now', while God's Word is plain that Christ will literally return in the future and then establish His Kingdom upon this earth de facto, over ALL nations, and reign here with His elect priests and kings.

Preterism is more aligned with the globalist's beast kingdom that is being setup over all the earth today. It is not a Christian working, but a working by the servants of the devil. And Christ warned us about in Rev.13 especially.


But if you'd rather listen to that doctrine of man instead of God's Word directly, then that's your own choice, have a good trip.

Hi veteran,

I have some sympathy with Rex's difficulty in following what you've laid out in your last few posts, but I thank you for bringing another view to attention. You know that this is not my subject area, but, here are a few points I would raise in light of your various statements. I don't want to take time to quote them precisely, as anyone reading is following.

The first is your statement that Satan himself will be the AntiChrist. At least, that's the way I read what you said. The reason I question it, is that on two of the occasions Jesus spoke to Satan himself, both times they were in a man - Peter and Judas.

There are also:
Zechariah 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. I take this to be the ultimate 'accuser' stance of Satan against our Lord Himself.

And,

Job 1: 7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

As Job was an Elamite, this discussion took place in the days of Noah, after the flood.


The other reference to angels on earth - which would be reasonable if there are already fallen angels on earth - is Jacob's dream:

Genesis 28:12 '... and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

I put to you that when Jesus echoed what Jacob had seen, He was promising a change in perception, mainly, to do with spiritual vision, being that the angels of God have (probably) been ascending and descending for as long as the serpent and his legions first arrived here - the latter being half the number of the former.

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.


The other pointer towards Satan and his emissaries being here, is the whole matter of demonic attachment to territories, objects and humans, which is validated not only by Jesus, but by His disciples, by the seventy whom He sent out, by the gift of discernment of spirits, and by John's instructions on how to recognise a spirit is not of God.

Some of that above I don't agree with at all concerning what God has given Satan and his demons to do in this world, for example, I don't think we can simply imply Satan's angels in the same comparisons like what Jacob saw. Moreover, the heavenly dimension works differently than our earthly dimension. It's a mistake to try and apply the limitations of power in our earthly realm to the heavenly realm. Satan is a spirit, and he works just as other spirits do on the earth. That operation is similar to how The Holy Spirit works in us, which John revealed when speaking of the "spirit of antichrist" working through wicked men on earth.

You see, Satan did not literally take over Peter's body like some possession sequence from movies like The Exorcist. Satan's spirit influenced Peter's thinking and words only. He's able to do that upon us too IF we allow it like Peter did. But still, all that really isn't what I was talking about concerning the Rev.12:7-17 events anyway, so this is off topic already. There's several other threads here that already deal with the subject of evil spirits, demons, and what not.


[quote]Are you really saying you don't believe there are any evil spirits 'on earth', at all, yet?[/quote]

Like I said, there's already several threads here on the forum dealing with that matter of demons and evil spirits that I agree with. The Rev.12:7-17 events are different. In other words, it appears you're trying to make a connection with the working of evil spirits according to previous Bible history with the events of Rev.12:7. The Rev.12:7-17 Scripture is about Satan and his angels being cast specifically... OUT of the heavenly dimension to this earth. There's only two different dimensions of existence, this earthy and the heavenly.

Applying Rev.12:7-9 in the invisible evil spirits on earth sense after Christ's crucifixion simply doesn't work because it would have to mean that evil spirits were not yet at work on earth until after Christ's crucifixion, if the Rev.12:7 war is applied in connection. We know evil spirits have been at work on this earth since at least the time of Job and Moses and Leviticus 20:27, because God warned Israel about them. So the connection you're suggesting with Rev.12:7 that Rex also has kind of tried to draw, does not work.

I've 'never heard' the interpretation of John 14:30, which you gave. For me, 'the prince of this world cometh' has always been about His betrayal, His 'trial' (which we know was unjust), and His battle on the cross.

That's actually where Apostle John was pulling from when he reminded brethren that they had already heard that antichrist shall come. Look at that context again...

John 14:26-30
26 But the Comforter, Which is the Holy Ghost, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for My Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

The subject so far? Christ's coming crucifixion, His coming again to His disicples after His crucifixion for 40 days, then His Ascension to The Father per Acts 1, and then The Father sending The Holy Spirit Comforter to His disciples on Pentecost day. He is telling them all that just before it took place, so that they might believe.

So the context of all that is for what time? For after His crucifixion, all the way up to His Ascension to The Father per Acts 1 to the time of Pentecost (Acts 2). That's the timeline of how those events happened: Crucifixion, 40 day visit to His disciples after His Resurrection, His Ascension to The Father per Acts 1, and the outpouring of The Holy Spirit on Pentecost per Acts 2.

Now the John 14:30 verse in THAT context...

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
(KJV)

That "Hereafter" He applied to a time AFTER His crucifixion. How's that? Well it's simple, because just 'when' would Jesus talk to His disciples after His being delivered up to be crucified? It wasn't during His trial. And He certainly did not mean the time He was hanging on the cross. So when? AFTER His crucifixion. So I guess we can't leave out those other timeline events either that He mentioned, like His Ascension to The Father and then later the outpouring of The Holy Spirit upon His Apostles on Pentecost day? No, we cannot just leave out those other things that He included with that Message given prior to His being delivered up.

But what do traditions of men instead teach about those verses? They teach it meant Christ defeated the devil by His crucifixion and leave off the rest of what He said. And then some take that and run with it further making even more un-Biblical traditions that Christ's Kingdom is now de facto manifested here on earth WITHOUT the requirement of Christ's future return to do that.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

Thanks for your patient reply.

I don't think we can simply imply Satan's angels in the same comparisons like what Jacob saw.

I don't think Jesus was referring to Satan's angels, either. That is my point, though, that both they, and holy angels, are already on earth.

It's a mistake to try and apply the limitations of power in our earthly realm to the heavenly realm. Satan is a spirit, and he works just as other spirits do on the earth. That operation is similar to how The Holy Spirit works in us, which John revealed when speaking of the "spirit of antichrist" working through wicked men on earth.

You see, Satan did not literally take over Peter's body like some possession sequence from movies

I understand how 'possession' works, (and I haven't seen the movies).

Rather than Peter, Judas is a better example. John 13:25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? 26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus to him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Was Jesus speaking to Judas or Satan? How can we tell? (I don't know, but Jesus wasn't resisting him.)

I agree that 'possession' is (probably) not what people think it is, but that a person can yield themselves consciously, deliberately, hopefully and even imploringly, to be filled with evil spirits, is verified by the experiences of those who do that. And Judas was, clearly, an idolater at heart, making him just the sort of person who would have no resistance whatever, to Satan's intrusion.


I'd like to clarify that I was not conscious of trying to link Rev 12:7 - 9 with anything. You seem to have asserted that Satan and his angels weren't/won't be thrown out of heaven until a time in the near future, whereas I believe they've been out of heaven since before the fall, confirmed by Jesus saying before His crucifixion, 'I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven', Luke 10:18.

He placed His statement in immediate apposition to 'And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject to us through thy name', Luke 10:17 and, Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

I don't believe Jesus was speaking figuratively in v 18, and, I believe the authority which we receive through the Holy Spirit, is both necessary and sufficient to close down demonic activity which we encounter. Clearly, this is a privilege of Christians - to pray and to speak in the name of Jesus Christ - but the fact it's needed at all, shows Satan's emissaries present. V18 was a valid statement, similar to John 8:58 in its eternal reach.

Regarding your abandonment of the 'Here' in 'Hereafter', in John 14:30, I think you've taken an indefinable quantity of licence to ignore the 'here'; ;) because the whole word is anchored on the 'Here' (meaning 'right this moment where I'm standing'), and as such, the crucifixion can, correctly, be included in 'hereafter', when He wouldn't speak to them much.

Surely His time on the cross parallels Zech 3:1 - 5, when Satan would most be in His face, accusing Him of all the sins He was bearing?

In light of Luke 10:18, we, like Jesus, should be able to say, 'Get thee behind me Satan'. Mark 8:33, Luke 4:8.

In light of Pentecost, we should be laying hold on words like, 'Greater is He that is in you(/me), than he that is in the world'; 1 John 4:4; that is, if we believe we have Christ in us by the Holy Spirit, and authority from Him to tread on serpents and scorpions.


We have no real idea how much time He spent with the twelve after His resurrection, but the impression given by Luke and John, is that He appeared and disappeared, rather than lived with them as He had before the cross.

They teach it meant Christ defeated the devil by His crucifixion and leave off the rest of what He said. And then some take that and run with it further making even more un-Biblical traditions that Christ's Kingdom is now de facto manifested here on earth WITHOUT the requirement of Christ's future return to do that.

I am not denying that Christ will return again bodily. I disagree completely with total Preterism.

But, there could be some merit in seeing Revelation as a combination of history and prophecy, rather than assuming it is all in the future, as some have been taught, contrarily to the teachings of the historical Church.

Since even fallen spirits can move around, I'm not making any claim for when Rev 12:7 - 9 took, or, takes place, as there is nothing to stop the fallen angels storming the holy angels, and losing again; but why does this have to be a future event?

The presence of Satan and his fallen angels on earth, seems indisputable since before the fall. for many reasons. Happenings in heaven before he was cast out, meant that the tabernacle which the Lord pitched, waited to be purged by a 'better sacrifice'. Heb 9:11, 23.

Therefore, I find difficult to believe it's going to be messed up again - by 'war in heaven' - since He cried, 'It is finished!', and, after His Asension, He has been seated at the Father's right hand waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool. Hebrews 10:12, 13.

 

[jeffweeder]

Shalom, jeffweeder.

Just some things to think about:

A. First, we know that the current world in which we live is full of evils.
B. Second, we know and believe that the future world, the eternal state, will be without any evil element.
The problem is, how do we get from A to B?
See, the problem involves the fact that there are prophecies in which the Messiah is in charge and is subjecting the evils within His Kingdom.
Some say that the prophecies are "spiritually" fulfilled in the present, but there are too many prophecies that cannot be explained away by saying that they are fulfilled "spiritually" or allegorically. Furthermore, over 400 of the prophecies of the Tanakh were fulfilled LITERALLY when Yeshua` was present during His First Advent, and we were promised that Yeshua` would return as He left. Why wouldn't these prophecies that promise His return to RESCUE HIS PEOPLE ISRA'EL BE FULFILLED IN THE SAME LITERAL WAY?
It makes better sense to see that there will be a Millennium between A and B.

Consider the following prophecies:

Psalm 2:1-12
Isaiah 35:1-10
Isaiah 40:1-31
Isaiah 42:1-46:13
Isaiah 48:1-22
Isaiah 49:1-26
Isaiah 52:1-15
Isaiah 59:20-65:25
Isaiah 66:1-24
Ezekiel 36:1-39:29
Ezekiel 40:1-48:35
Joel 2:1-3:21
Obadiah 15-21
Micah 5:2-15
Zechariah 2:8-13
Zechariah 3:8-10
Zechariah 8:1-23
Zechariah 12:1-14:21
Malachi 3:1-4:6

All of these are Messianic prophecies from the Tanakh that have yet to be fulfilled. PARTS of them may have been fulfilled or have begun to be fulfilled when Yeshua` was here during His First Advent, but much more has NOT YET been fulfilled!

The character of the Millennium is NOT one of "perfect peace," as some teach. It is a TRANSITIONAL stage in which the Messiah subdues His enemies. The Millennium will be a time of peace FOR HIS PEOPLE, both Isra'elis and Gentiles, but for those OUTSIDE of the Messiah who oppose His reign, they will have no peace, unless they say "Uncle" and knuckle under His leadership! Some will do just that; others won't. In Matthew 25, Yeshua` talks about the separation of the sheep and the goats. That will take place at the BEGINNING of the Millennium. However, the parables of the wheat and tares and the drag-net in Matthew 13 won't take place until the END of the Millennium as part of the process for the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20.

To get a better handle on this, one should harmonize 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, 2 Peter 3:3-13, and Revelation 20-22, using key connectors such as the final Judgment, the GWT, and the destruction of Death.

Greetings Retrobyter.
God dealt with the evil world of old by sending the flood....Judgment. Only Noah and family were left to enjoy the new world that emerged.
Jesus compared those events with his coming again, as did Peter.
Only those in the ark of Christ will inherit the new world that he has gone to prepare for us. Peter had is eye on a new heaven and earth...where only the righteous dwell when Christ comes..Thats an amill response. Reading the rest of 2 pet 3, you can see why he wasnt expecting to spend a 1000 extra years on the earth at the Lords coming.
Gods way of getting the Jews and the Gentiles out of the evil and into his kingdom is through the preaching of the Gospel of Messiah...to every race of people, and then the end will come.
God , during this period, wishes no-one to perish, and the very words Jesus spoke at his first coming will judge those who reject him when he appears at his second coming at the end of the age...the last day. Jesus will raise us the last day and the words he has already spoken will judge the last day.The Father will one day shut the door and judgment will commense, and it seems to me that this will occur when he comes again a second time.
So what would be the point of a 1000 extra years if the door to salvation is shut just prior to his second coming?

In Matthew 25, Yeshua` talks about the separation of the sheep and the goats. That will take place at the BEGINNING of the Millennium. However, the parables of the wheat and tares and the drag-net in Matthew 13 won't take place until the END of the Millennium as part of the process for the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20.

I agree that Matt 13 takes place at the end of the mill, and is another way of explaining the GWT....But so is Matt 25 imho..The outcome in both passages is the eternal fire or the eternal glory for the tares / goats or wheat / sheep.The time when this kind of sentence is handed out is the GWT judgment.

...

Notice in Rev 7, that the redeemed stand before God as they do at the GWT in Rev 21...tears wiped away etc.
Where do the redeemed come from?...the Millenium or the great tribulation?
　
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
"Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,
"Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" 14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."
Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

Matt 24
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
....................................
But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
...................................
"Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


So once again we have the Son coming to assign / render to everyone.
Is it possible for the judgment of the righteous and the wicked to be seperated by a long period of time?..like one at the beginning and one at the end of a proposed future millenium?
How is the Son going to come at the end of the mill, at an hour unknown ( v 48-50 above), when he is already here ruling?
Are we glorified a 1000 years before the wicked are finally punished, or does it happen on the same day?
You decide.
　
This is
, and to be marveled at among all who have believed
a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day—for our testimony to you was believed.


It seems clear to me at the moment that the opening of the book of life results in our glorification as the revealed Sons of God. The opening of the other books results in the opposite.

 

[veteran]

....

Rather than Peter, Judas is a better example. John 13:25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? 26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus to him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Was Jesus speaking to Judas or Satan? How can we tell? (I don't know, but Jesus wasn't resisting him.)

That was Satan's spirit our Lord Jesus was rebuking, the "spirit of antichrist" idea. Demonic possession like the man at the tomb in Mark 5 was obviously different than the case of Judas. In John 6 our Lord Jesus referred to Judas as a devil though. It would suggest that Judas knew his own nature, and that he understood what Christ said to him, which is different than Peter's case. Judas held the bag, and questioned use of funds, showing he loved money and was among the Apostles for gain, and thus his deal with thirty pieces of silver. If Judas believed Jesus was The Christ when he did that, then he may have figured that Jesus would prevent His own death maybe, which again would show how Judas was out for gain.

I agree that 'possession' is (probably) not what people think it is, but that a person can yield themselves consciously, deliberately, hopefully and even imploringly, to be filled with evil spirits, is verified by the experiences of those who do that. And Judas was, clearly, an idolater at heart, making him just the sort of person who would have no resistance whatever, to Satan's intrusion.

The Scripture shows that Judas did feel sorry for what he did in the end, but does not say he repented of it. Hmm.... . Still no one born flesh has been sentenced and judged to perish at the Judgment just yet, including Judas.

I'd like to clarify that I was not conscious of trying to link Rev 12:7 - 9 with anything. You seem to have asserted that Satan and his angels weren't/won't be thrown out of heaven until a time in the near future, whereas I believe they've been out of heaven since before the fall, confirmed by Jesus saying before His crucifixion, 'I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven', Luke 10:18.

The Luke 10 reference was about Satan's 'original' fall from Heaven, the time of old when he first rebelled against God. Satan was originally a covering cherub at God's Altar per Ezekiel 28. That was his first casting out, away from God's Throne as a covering cherub. He was not... cast out of Heaven then though. The abode called hell (hades per the Greek) is in the heavenly dimension, but in a place of separation. Our Lord Jesus showed us that with the story of Lazarus and the rich man per Luke 16.

So the war in heaven and casting out of Rev.12:7-9 is... still a future event. The difference is that Satan and his angels will be cast out of the heavenly de facto, meaning out of the heavenly dimension literally. There's only one other dimension of existence they can come to.

This is why our Lord Jesus is showing us that the "dragon" is one of Satan's titles per the Rev.12:9 verse, because our Lord Jesus showed us more about the coming "dragon" in the next Rev.13 chapter, which is for what time? I think our Lord Jesus by that has made it very clear about Satan being the coming 2nd beast-false prophet-dragon of later Revelation Scripture.

This is why men's traditions about the timing of the Rev.12:7-17 events being past history in connection with Christ's crucifixion, or even in connection with Satan's original fall in the world that then was, destroys the links for the end our Lord Jesus was giving us there in His Revelation. It's a doctrine designed to get one off track in Revelation.

 

[jeffweeder]

That's some very good questions Jeffweeder... let's first
understand that there is more than one resurrection.

The first resurrection is limited to just believers, while the
second or general resurrection will be believers and also
non-believers. Let me try to explain. Rev. 20:6 says,

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part
in the first resurrection ; over these the second
death has no power, but they will be priests of
God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a
thousand years.

These believers are the Overcomers that the whole creation
is waiting on in Romans 8. These Overcomers will receive
their adoption, which is, the redemption of their body. Rom.
8:23,

23[sup] [/sup]And not only this, but also we ourselves,
having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we
ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting
eagerly for our adoption as sons, the
redemption of our body.

The general resurrrection will happen a thousand years
later as John tells us in Rev. 20:5.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life
until the thousand years were completed.

John explains one thousand years after the 1st Resurrection
comes the Great White Throne Judgment, in which ALL the
(remaining) dead are raised, including believers and the
unbelievers.

Jesus confirms this general resurrection in John 5:28,29,

28 "Do not marvel at this ; for an hour is
coming, in which all who are in the tombs
will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth ; those who did the
good deeds to a resurrection of life, those
who committed the evil deeds to a
resurrection of judgment.

Notice this could not be the 1st Resurrection because both
believers and unbelievers are raised. This is clearly the
description of the second Resurrection, where all who are
in the tombs shall come forth for Judgment.

Paul offers a double witness of the second Ressurection in
Acts 24:14, 15,

14 "But this I admit to you, that according
to the Way which they call a sect I do serve
the God of our fathers, believing everything
that is in accordance with the Law and that
is written in the Prophets ;
15 having a hope in God, which these men
cherish themselves, that there shall certainly
be a resurrection of both the righteous and
the wicked.

This can only be referring to the second, not the first resurrection,
because only "blessed and holy" people are raised the first time. We
must conclude, then, that not all Christians will be raised in the 1st
Resurrection. Only the Overcomers that God has chosen.

The revealing of the Sons of God in Rom. 8:19 will be the next great
unveiling of the Spirit of God. It is where the Overcomers begin to
set up the Kingdom of God upon the earth. That is why the WHOLE
CREATION is waiting for that manifestation to take place. The earth
will be governed by the Sons of God and there will be peace in the
valley.

Logabe

Hi Logabe.
This is how i see the first resurrection.
　
This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
　
Participants can be assured that they will not be hurt at final judgment...as their names are wrtten in book of life.
　
　
I feel like i have that assurance now, and every born again person knows that Jesus bore the penalty they would have recieved at the final judgment, so rest assured....(and behave yourself.)
　
Im glad you ref Jn 5, but back up a few verses and look at these ....
　
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
The same promise is given in rev 20 and Jn 5, being the final judgment wont hurt us.
　
Jesus said the time "now is" for all who come to faith in him, to participate in the blessings of a first resurrection.
　
That would mean that our being priests "now is"
　
　
Rev 1
John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen
He has released us and he has made us already.We are more than conquerers through him that loves us, so reign on, overcome,run the race,stay awake and keep the clothes given you until the opening of the book and the time of everlasting reward.
Rev 5
"Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
1Pet 2
　
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

 

[dragonfly]

'He has released us and he has made us already.We are more than conquerers through him that loves us, so reign on, overcome,run the race,stay awake and keep the clothes given you until the opening of the book and the time of everlasting reward.'

Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Amen!

 

[Rex]

　
Im glad you ref Jn 5, but back up a few verses and look at these ....
　
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
The same promise is given in rev 20 and Jn 5, being the final judgment wont hurt us.
　
Jesus said the time "now is" for all who come to faith in him, to participate in the blessings of a first resurrection.
　
That would mean that our being priests "now is"
　
　
Rev 1
John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen
He has released us and he has made us already.We are more than conquerers through him that loves us, so reign on, overcome,run the race,stay awake and keep the clothes given you until the opening of the book and the time of everlasting reward.
Rev 5
"Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
1Pet 2
　
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

A men Jeff I'm adding that to my notes
John 5:25
John 12:31
Rev 12:10

 

[veteran]

So if Christ's Kingdom is established on earth 'now' through His saints, then why does our Lord Jesus need to return and gather us to Him, since that is written and is still future to us???

It's simple. It's because Christ's Kingdom today is only established in the hearts and minds of His servants here on earth, but not His literal de facto physical Kingdom reign with His elect priests and kings gathered to where He will return, which will be Jerusalem on this earth.

 

[jeffweeder]

So if Christ's Kingdom is established on earth 'now' through His saints, then why does our Lord Jesus need to return and gather us to Him, since that is written and is still future to us???

If Christs kingdom is not of this world, then why expect it to manifest in some political and geographical way.?
Its all about us undergoing a circumsicion of the heart, and christ ruling and reaching out to the world from there.

Christ has promised to come after the gospel of the kingdom has been preached to all nations, and everyone has had the chance to enter into it.
In the future, paul expected the Lord to fulfill his promise of rewarding those who believe and enter the kingdom ,at his appearing at the end of that age.

 

[Rex]

This is a copy and paste from another post I made. Buy reviewing the Lords prayer we see that He left no doubt about leaving us in the world but yet gifting us with all that He Himself is and received. 1 John3:2 1 Peter 2:9
Ephesians 4:8
Psalms 68:18
1 Peter 3:19

Jesus goes into an extensive prayer in John 17 for the disciples which includes.

[sup]6 [/sup]“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. [sup]7 [/sup]Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. [sup]8 [/sup]For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
[sup]9 [/sup]“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. [sup]10 [/sup]And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. [sup]11 [/sup]Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,[sup][b][/sup] that they may be one as We are. [sup]12 [/sup]While I was with them in the world,[sup][c][/sup] I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[sup][d][/sup] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. [sup]13 [/sup]But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. [sup]14 [/sup]I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. [sup]15 [/sup]I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. [sup]16 [/sup]They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. [sup]17 [/sup]Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. [sup]18 [/sup]As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [sup]19 [/sup]And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

But Jesus didn't stop with the Disciples being one with God, having Gods word, sanctified by truth he went on to include, "those who will believe in Me through their word; that they also may be one in Us,


[sup]20 [/sup]“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[sup][e][/sup] believe in Me through their word; [sup]21 [/sup]that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. [sup]22 [/sup]And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: [sup]23 [/sup]I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
[sup]24 [/sup]“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. [sup]25 [/sup]O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. [sup]26 [/sup]And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”


Now put the red all together
We are all gifted the same."those who will believe in Me through their word; that they also may be one in Us, And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: [sup]23 [/sup]I in them, and You in Me; John 15:3

So if Christ's Kingdom is established on earth 'now' through His saints, then why does our Lord Jesus need to return and gather us to Him, since that is written and is still future to us???

It's simple. It's because Christ's Kingdom today is only established in the hearts and minds of His servants here on earth, but not His literal de facto physical Kingdom reign with His elect priests and kings gathered to where He will return, which will be Jerusalem on this earth.

Notice here veteran that the Lord did not simply "randomly" chose a number. Peter asks my brother "Jews" Danial 9:24

Matthew 18:21-27
[sup]21 [/sup]Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
[sup]22 [/sup]Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. [sup]23 [/sup]Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. [sup]24 [/sup]And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. [sup]25 [/sup]But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. [sup]26 [/sup]The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ [sup]27 [/sup]Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

The Lord is quoting Danial 70x7 unto the coming of the Messiah.
Israel enjoyed the grace extended to them before the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world. John 1:29
The parable speaks of this King who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. Israel the Jews

 

[veteran]

If Christs kingdom is not of this world, then why expect it to manifest in some political and geographical way.?
Its all about us undergoing a circumsicion of the heart, and christ ruling and reaching out to the world from there.

Christ has promised to come after the gospel of the kingdom has been preached to all nations, and everyone has had the chance to enter into it.
In the future, paul expected the Lord to fulfill his promise of rewarding those who believe and enter the kingdom ,at his appearing at the end of that age.

So you DO... believe Christ Jesus is going to return literally to this earth?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, jeffweeder.

Greetings Retrobyter.
God dealt with the evil world of old by sending the flood....Judgment. Only Noah and family were left to enjoy the new world that emerged.
Jesus compared those events with his coming again, as did Peter.
Only those in the ark of Christ will inherit the new world that he has gone to prepare for us. Peter had [h]is eye on a new heaven and earth...where only the righteous dwell when Christ comes..Thats an amill response. Reading the rest of 2 pet 3, you can see why he wasnt expecting to spend a 1000 extra years on the earth at the Lords coming.
Gods way of getting the Jews and the Gentiles out of the evil and into his kingdom is through the preaching of the Gospel of Messiah...to every race of people, and then the end will come.

NO! It's not about the "Gospel of the Messiah"; it's the Gospel of the KINGDOM! That's FAR different! The Gospel of the Kingdom is NOT about "the death, burial, and resurrection of the Messiah" that is frequently called the "Gospel" and is typically misunderstood as an INDIVIDUAL restoration to God's graces. The Gospel of the Kingdom is found in Isaiah 52:7:

Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV

This verse is NOT talking about some pseudo-reign through some entity called "the Church!" To the contrary, this is the ORIGINAL KINGDOM that God ruled over before the kings of Isra'el and Y'hudah began to reign, but since David was humble and fervently loved YHWH, He indefinitely extended David's dynasty by making THE FINAL Messiah His own Son, Yeshua`, who is also the Son of David! When God reigns through His Representative (His Chosen; His Anointed; His Mashiach), Yeshua` from Natsaret, He will reign without equal! He will be a "benevolent Tyrant," good news to celebrate!

God, during this period, wishes no-one to perish, and the very words Jesus spoke at his first coming will judge those who reject him when he appears at his second coming at the end of the age...the last day. Jesus will raise us the last day and the words he has already spoken will judge the last day.The Father will one day shut the door and judgment will commense, and it seems to me that this will occur when he comes again a second time.
So what would be the point of a 1000 extra years if the door to salvation is shut just prior to his second coming?

"Salvation" is the WRONG WORD! Please understand: The word "salvation" means "rescue" or "deliverance." Again, this is NOT talking about individual deliverance "from sin"; it's about the NATIONAL DELIVERANCE of Isra'el when the Messiah returns!

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

Psalm 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O Lord: O Lord, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord: we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord.
KJV

Romans 10:8-15
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
KJV

Romans 10:8-15
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
KJV

Joel 2:30-3:17
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompence me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;
5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:
6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.
7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:
8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it.
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
KJV

I agree that Matt 13 takes place at the end of the mill, and is another way of explaining the GWT....But so is Matt 25 imho..The outcome in both passages is the eternal fire or the eternal glory for the tares / goats or wheat / sheep.The time when this kind of sentence is handed out is the GWT judgment.

Let's look closely at Matthew 25:

Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
KJV

Notice that the context is at the BEGINNING of His Kingdom AFTER He has arrived! ("When the Son of man shall come" and "then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory [or fame].") Furthermore, the messengers (the "angels") are not told to do anything with either group of people. These people are "still on their own two feet." It is simply that AS A NATION, these people's fate is already decided. The wicked "goats" are told to "go away" into everlasting fire, but they are not yet THROWN there!

The righteous "sheep" are told at this time to "inherit the Kingdom prepared for them," and it is at this time that they enter "into life eternal." The contextual clues suggest the BEGINNING of the Millennium when the Messiah's Kingdom begins, not after the first 1000 years of His Kingdom have already taken place!

Notice in Rev 7, that the redeemed stand before God as they do at the GWT in Rev 21...tears wiped away etc.

Where do the redeemed come from?...the Millenium or the great tribulation?

　
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
"Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,
"Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" 14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."
Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

Okay, in both Revelation 7 and in Revelation 21, both of these passages are in the future tense. When one uses such a tense to say, for instance, "God will wipe away every tear from their eyes," we are talking about an event that WILL occur sometime in the future. Thus, to use the future tense, we are looking at a half line that contains that event as a point on that time half-line. That does NOT mean that the point that represents that event must happen at the BEGINNING of the half-line! It must just occur somewhere on that half line AFTER the beginning point when the statement is made. It doesn't happen YET in Revelation 7, and it doesn't quite happen YET in Revelation 21, either; however, Revelation 21 is CLOSER to the event than Revelation 7 is! The two time lines, the two half-lines, overlap although they don't begin at the same point in time. And, the event of God wiping away every tear just has to occur sometime within the overlap! Doesn't verses 9 and 10 remind you of any other such event? Remember the "Triumphal Entry" into Jerusalem on that first "Palm Sunday?" They will be doing PRECISELY what the Jews SHOULD have done on that day! Remember: only His disciples and the children so welcomed Him, but not the leaders - the elders - of the Tribe of Y'hudah! At the point of Revelation 7, this time the Jews SHALL be welcoming Him as predicted in Psalm 118:22-26.

I know that this can be confusing, but hopefully you can see how both non-included, beginning points of these time half-lines can be not the same exact point in time.

Matt 24
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
....................................
29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
...................................
45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


So once again we have the Son coming to assign / render to everyone.
Is it possible for the judgment of the righteous and the wicked to be seperated by a long period of time?..like one at the beginning and one at the end of a proposed future millenium?
How is the Son going to come at the end of the mill, at an hour unknown ( v 48-50 above), when he is already here ruling?
Are we glorified a 1000 years before the wicked are finally punished, or does it happen on the same day?
You decide.
　
This is
, and to be marveled at among all who have believed
a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day—for our testimony to you was believed.


It seems clear to me at the moment that the opening of the book of life results in our glorification as the revealed Sons of God. The opening of the other books results in the opposite.

There are two separate judgments with two entirely different criteria and two entirely different decisions. When Yeshua` comes and sets up His Kingdom, He will judge the nations based on HOW THEY TREATED HIS PEOPLE, both the Jews/Isra'elis and the Adopted Gentiles (adopted into His family). This is a judgment based upon the decisions He makes in the "valley of decision." It's a WAR TRIBUNAL following the battle at Har Megiddown ("Armageddon"), which means "Mountain of Megiddow" or "Tel-Megiddo!" This is that watchtower that overlooks the valley of Yizr`e'el (or Jezreel), also called Gei-Y'howshafat (the Valley of Jehoshaphat), and the crossroads through the mountain pass to the road to Jerusalem south of that point. He is not judging HIS people at this point in time. These people are being judged for how they TREATED His people!

The second general judgment, the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the 1000 years, IS a final judgment based on How they humbled themselves to Yeshua`, the Messiah, the Melekh (the King), and the Son of God. It will be at THIS judgment that death is defeated once and for all (1 Cor. 15:20-28; Revelation 20:8-15), and it will be at THIS judgment that the messengers (the "angels") are sent to throw offenders into the Lake of Fire and Sulfur or the Lake of Burning Sulfur, and to gather His children into His "barn," i.e., the FATHER'S Kingdom, which is experienced in the New Earth and its New Sky. It is not until THIS judgment that the books are opened.

 

[veteran]

The Gospel of the kingdom is part of The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and it was partially established on earth with Christ's death on the cross after the Jews in Jerusalem rejected Him.

The main difference being that the Jews in Jerusalem refused to accept Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah and thus the kingdom presented to them then, so the 'kingdom' was given to another nation that would bear its fruits...

Matt 21:42-46
42 Jesus saith unto them, "'Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?'
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that He spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitude, because they took Him for a prophet.
(KJV)


So the idea that Jews have like, "Well since the Jews in Jerusalem refused Christ at His first coming, then the kingdom promised only to seed of Israel has to wait", well that is wrong thinking.

Thinking that Christ manifested 'nothing' concerning His Kingdom on this earth at His first coming, and thinking that His Kingdom complete has already come today, are BOTH extremists doctrines that are not written.



In Christ's parable of the householder in Matt.21, He is specifically talking about the kingdom refused by the Jews at His first coming being MOVED, "given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." MOVED to what "nation" though?

This parable is about His "vineyard" which He defined back in Isaiah 5.

Matt 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
(KJV)

Isa 5:1-7
1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard.
4 What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant: and He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
(KJV)

We were supposed have understood this idea in Isaiah 5 about God's vineyard first in order to understand our Lord's parable about the vineyard in Matt.21.

His vineyard represents 'who' per that? The "house of Israel". Who's that per God's Word? It's the ten tribes, the majority of the peoples of the seed of Israel. And that "pleasant plant"? Judah, the Jews at Jerusalem given to rule over it. That's why God is spotlighting Judah in v.3 above.

After Christ's crucifixion His "vineyard" was given to a nation that would bear its fruit, well, what kind of fruits??? FRUITS IN THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. And just where... on earth was that after His death and resurrection??? In the Christian West of Asia Minor and Europe, the first historical Christian nations, Britain being the very first nation to accept Christ Jesus on a national scale.

And talk about those nations bearing the FRUIT of Christ's vineyard by The Gospel of Jesus Christ, boy has it!!! Even later going farther to all the nations of the world!

That is specifically the prophecy about Ephraim becoming "a multitude of nations" per the Gen.48 prophecy having been fulfilled through The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those "multitude of nations" is THAT "nation" Christ was talking about, His vineyard. The unbelieving Jews refused to take care of His "vineyard" (majority of Israel - ten tribes), so HE MOVED IT to where it is now, among the Gentiles!

And not only did He plant His vineyard of the "house of Israel" in Asia Minor and Europe and its associated territories and nations, He setup kings and queens over it on earth!!! He literaly moved David's throne there too! and the Jacob's Pillar stone, for those things can no longer be found in Jerusalem on earth.

But does this mean Christ's Kingdom on earth is now complete? No way, for Christ Jesus is its RIGHTFUL KING, and He declared He will come to 'inherit' it as written. He has also promised us to never again be bothered by His enemies, which is still not yet manifest today on earth. And His "vineyard" here on earth is STILL not yet FULL.


This is WHY some Christian branches are preaching Christ's Kingdom now manifest on earth through His servants, which is true, but they go TOO FAR in preaching completeness ideas with it which have not yet manifest, since it REQUIRES Christ's second coming, His RETURN to reign over it in Person, and the literal de facto defeat and reign OVER all His enemies here on earth.

And then at the OTHER extreme, many believing Jews are wrongly taught that NOTHING concerning Christ's Kingdom was manifest by His death and resurrection, because they are taught to almost completely DISREGARD what God did with the scattering of the majority of the peoples of Israel, i.e., the ten tribes, and their being established under Christ Jesus in new lands under The Gospel of Jesus Christ, with believing Gentiles joined with them! Now that's... the REAL "vineyard" our LORD can be proud of!!!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

The Gospel of the kingdom is part of The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and it was partially established on earth with Christ's death on the cross after the Jews in Jerusalem rejected Him.

The main difference being that the Jews in Jerusalem refused to accept Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah and thus the kingdom presented to them then, so the 'kingdom' was given to another nation that would bear its fruits...

Matt 21:42-46
42 Jesus saith unto them, "'Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?'
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that He spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitude, because they took Him for a prophet.
(KJV)


So the idea that Jews have like, "Well since the Jews in Jerusalem refused Christ at His first coming, then the kingdom promised only to seed of Israel has to wait", well that is wrong thinking.

Thinking that Christ manifested 'nothing' concerning His Kingdom on this earth at His first coming, and thinking that His Kingdom complete has already come today, are BOTH extremists doctrines that are not written.



In Christ's parable of the householder in Matt.21, He is specifically talking about the kingdom refused by the Jews at His first coming being MOVED, "given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." MOVED to what "nation" though?

This parable is about His "vineyard" which He defined back in Isaiah 5.

Matt 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
(KJV)

Isa 5:1-7
1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard.
4 What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant: and He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
(KJV)

We were supposed have understood this idea in Isaiah 5 about God's vineyard first in order to understand our Lord's parable about the vineyard in Matt.21.

His vineyard represents 'who' per that? The "house of Israel". Who's that per God's Word? It's the ten tribes, the majority of the peoples of the seed of Israel. And that "pleasant plant"? Judah, the Jews at Jerusalem given to rule over it. That's why God is spotlighting Judah in v.3 above.

After Christ's crucifixion His "vineyard" was given to a nation that would bear its fruit, well, what kind of fruits??? FRUITS IN THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. And just where... on earth was that after His death and resurrection??? In the Christian West of Asia Minor and Europe, the first historical Christian nations, Britain being the very first nation to accept Christ Jesus on a national scale.

And talk about those nations bearing the FRUIT of Christ's vineyard by The Gospel of Jesus Christ, boy has it!!! Even later going farther to all the nations of the world!

That is specifically the prophecy about Ephraim becoming "a multitude of nations" per the Gen.48 prophecy having been fulfilled through The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those "multitude of nations" is THAT "nation" Christ was talking about, His vineyard. The unbelieving Jews refused to take care of His "vineyard" (majority of Israel - ten tribes), so HE MOVED IT to where it is now, among the Gentiles!

And not only did He plant His vineyard of the "house of Israel" in Asia Minor and Europe and its associated territories and nations, He setup kings and queens over it on earth!!! He literaly moved David's throne there too! and the Jacob's Pillar stone, for those things can no longer be found in Jerusalem on earth.

But does this mean Christ's Kingdom on earth is now complete? No way, for Christ Jesus is its RIGHTFUL KING, and He declared He will come to 'inherit' it as written. He has also promised us to never again be bothered by His enemies, which is still not yet manifest today on earth. And His "vineyard" here on earth is STILL not yet FULL.


This is WHY some Christian branches are preaching Christ's Kingdom now manifest on earth through His servants, which is true, but they go TOO FAR in preaching completeness ideas with it which have not yet manifest, since it REQUIRES Christ's second coming, His RETURN to reign over it in Person, and the literal de facto defeat and reign OVER all His enemies here on earth.

And then at the OTHER extreme, many believing Jews are wrongly taught that NOTHING concerning Christ's Kingdom was manifest by His death and resurrection, because they are taught to almost completely DISREGARD what God did with the scattering of the majority of the peoples of Israel, i.e., the ten tribes, and their being established under Christ Jesus in new lands under The Gospel of Jesus Christ, with believing Gentiles joined with them! Now that's... the REAL "vineyard" our LORD can be proud of!!!

Sorry, but you have two flaws in this reasoning. First, you are ASSUMING that "Isra'el" is talking about the 10 tribes instead of all 12. How often do you see a vineyard with the "pleasant vines" planted outside of it? The grapevines are planted WITHIN the vineyard, the House of Isra'el. That means they are a PART of it! Thus, it is referring to the WHOLE house of Isra'el.

Second, you make the assumption that the ten tribes can be shown have been "established under Christ Jesus in new lands under The Gospel of Jesus Christ, with believing Gentiles joined with them." Even the most adamant believers in the theory cannot substantiate this claim without some uncertainty.

There's a good possibility that SOME of the ten tribes may have been scattered to the Western nations, but no one has their lineage of such a thing happening! It's best not to build a whole house of cards on such a foundation. It will likely collapse! Just sayin'.