Revealing the Sons of God.

[dragonfly]

Hi Retrobyter,

There's a good possibility that SOME of the ten tribes may have been scattered to the Western nations, but no one has their lineage of such a thing happening! It's best not to build a whole house of cards on such a foundation.

I am really surprised you think this.

Do you really discount the etymological link between the descriptor given to Abram, which became the word 'Hebrew', which is glaring from the current terms: Iberia, (Spain and Portugal), Hibernia, (island of Ireland), and Hebrides (islands off north-west Scotland)?

 

[Rex]

Shalom, veteran.



Sorry, but you have two flaws in this reasoning. First, you are ASSUMING that "Isra'el" is talking about the 10 tribes instead of all 12. How often do you see a vineyard with the "pleasant vines" planted outside of it? The grapevines are planted WITHIN the vineyard, the House of Isra'el. That means they are a PART of it! Thus, it is referring to the WHOLE house of Isra'el.

Second, you make the assumption that the ten tribes can be shown have been "established under Christ Jesus in new lands under The Gospel of Jesus Christ, with believing Gentiles joined with them." Even the most adamant believers in the theory cannot substantiate this claim without some uncertainty.

There's a good possibility that SOME of the ten tribes may have been scattered to the Western nations, but no one has their lineage of such a thing happening! It's best not to build a whole house of cards on such a foundation. It will likely collapse! Just sayin'.

I agree with your reasoning and that some things are better kept to ones self. The root is always the same.
22 "Joseph is a fruitful bough, A fruitful bough by a well; His branches run over the wall.

I had a dream quite a number of years ago I'll do my best to share it.
From a distance on high I was looking over a great gathering, all the people from every generation. Every soul that ever lived, and they were gathered nearest me from Adam and each and everyone stood next next to his mother and her father and brothers and sisters, as I looked over the great multitude fanned out over a great plain, the end I could not see only the low tops of mountains in the distance. Then I stood next to my mother and father around me all of my family extending into the great assembly. All those near me looked around, and each knew their fathers and mothers, then looking to Him that sat at the head high and lifted, up each knew from where he came. Every mans heart was glad and leaped with joy. I was taken up again and looked over the multitude and I saw sin, like a bright ball placed at the beginning. Sin went out threw the multitude tracing its path back, one at a time threw every man and every age. Every man could see and thus to the end of the multitude I could not see, but every man knew. I looked again and the Spirit of God went forth as did sin and the whole of the multitude was no longer fanned out it edges were straight like a great army standing in rank and file in the shape of great triangle upon the ground, every side straight and true, the point of which nearest me I could clearly see the 12 tribes and behind them the multitude then the vision changed, now the 12 Disciples assembled and behind them the multitude stretching to the tops of the mountains in the distance. My heart rejoiced and He who sat at the Head high and lifted up was greatly pleased, and each standing in his place at every changing of the vision, My heart over flowed in joy and in peace, for now all men have seen the vision know,

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.

Sorry, but you have two flaws in this reasoning. First, you are ASSUMING that "Isra'el" is talking about the 10 tribes instead of all 12. How often do you see a vineyard with the "pleasant vines" planted outside of it? The grapevines are planted WITHIN the vineyard, the House of Isra'el. That means they are a PART of it! Thus, it is referring to the WHOLE house of Isra'el.

Second, you make the assumption that the ten tribes can be shown have been "established under Christ Jesus in new lands under The Gospel of Jesus Christ, with believing Gentiles joined with them." Even the most adamant believers in the theory cannot substantiate this claim without some uncertainty.

There's a good possibility that SOME of the ten tribes may have been scattered to the Western nations, but no one has their lineage of such a thing happening! It's best not to build a whole house of cards on such a foundation. It will likely collapse! Just sayin'.

With that kind of reaction, I feel I have two ways I can take it. Either you really don't know it because of those you're listening to prevents you from discovering it in God's Word, or... you are aware of it but seek to exalt Jewry.

The very first guiding principle is, whether or not it can be found written in God's Word. It is... written in God's Word. The second guiding principle is, can it be found in the world manifesting according to The Scriptures? The answer to that is yes also.

For someone to deny it simply means they either haven't paid attention to The Scriptures, or they don't like that it's written, and would still rather default to some agenda of man.

The "vineyard" symbol God gave in Isaiah 5 to represent the "house of Israel" (ten tribes), and is distinct from those of "Judah" that God declared there in Isaiah 5. There are also many other OT Scriptures about the ten tribed "house of Israel" being separated from the three tribed "house of Judah". One can easily take a Strong's Exahustive Concordance and look up all the occurances of that "house of Israel" label and discover the historical separation point when God split old Israel into two separated kingdoms. It will even reveal OT prophecy about their being joined back together in final also, like the two sticks prophecy given in Ezekiel 37, and their gathering like in Amos 9 which is stil future.

In Matt.21, when Christ told the unbelieving Jews that the Kingdom of God would thus be given to a "nation" that would bring forth its fruits, He was pointing to the "vineyard" of the "house of Israel" in connection with that...

Matt 21:42-43
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?'
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
(KJV)

And those unbelieving Jews even themselves... declared it by their own answer to His question...

Matt 21:40-41
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto Him, "He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons."
(KJV)

Well, The Lord of the vineyard came then, and that vineyard was then removed from the care of those husbandmen put for the unbelieving Jews. And the stone which the builders rejected that Christ quoted from the Psalms is about what?...


Acts 4:11-12
11 This is the stone Which was set at nought of you builders, Which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
(KJV)

Eph 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In Whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In Whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
(KJV)

1 Pet 2:5-7
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, "Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded."
7 Unto you therefore which believe He is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
(KJV)

That is pointing to Jesus Christ having become that stone the builders rejected in relation to The Gospel of Jesus Christ, AND those who have believed on Him, of both the seed of Israel and of Gentiles.

And THAT is only ONE of many... associating principle Scriptures relating to that "vineyard" in that parable Christ gave that points to the Isaiah 5 Scripture about the ten tribed "house of Israel" in association with The Gospel.

When Apostle Paul quoted from Hosea in connection with The Gospel and Gentile believers, that is another direct association with the ten tribed house of Israel of history linked with believing Gentiles on Christ Jesus. The Book of Hosea is especially about God's scattering of the house of Israel under Ephraim, its head tribe, and His calling them 'Lo ammi' (not my people). And then later they would be called 'Ammi' (my people). Paul in Romans directly associated believing Gentiles with that Ammi prophecy, which is another direct pointer to the ten tribes joined with believing Gentiles on Jesus Christ.

And I haven't even gotten to the matter of God's Birthright yet, which was placed upon Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh who were established among the ten tribed "house of Israel" per God's Word, and not Judah (1 Chron.5). God's Birthright included The Promise by Faith first and foremost when given to Abraham, which Apostle Paul also revealed as a link to The Gospel of Jesus Christ per Romans and Galatians.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

Hi Retrobyter,



I am really surprised you think this.

Do you really discount the etymological link between the descriptor given to Abram, which became the word 'Hebrew', which is glaring from the current terms: Iberia, (Spain and Portugal), Hibernia, (island of Ireland), and Hebrides (islands off north-west Scotland)?

The etymology of "Hebrew" is NOT from "Avram." It is from "`EVer" (transliterated as "Eber" or "Heber" in most English versions). As such, he is NOT the origin of JUST the Isra'eli people! Technically, ANYONE born of "`EVer," or more importantly, anyone who speaks the LANGUAGE of "`EVer," is a "Hebrew." That would include the whole following genealogy:

I. Hever
....A. Peleg
........ 1. Re`u
............. a. S'rug
.................. i. Nachor
........................A) Terach
............................ 1) Avram
.................................. a) Ishma'el
........................................ i) N'vayot
....................................... ii) Kedar
.......................................iii) Adbe'el
.......................................iv) Mivsam
....................................... v) Mishma
.......................................vi) Dumah
......................................vii) Massa
.....................................viii) Hadad
...................................... ix) Teima
....................................... x) Y'tur
...................................... xi) Nafish
......................................xii) Kedmah
.................................. B) Yitschaq
........................................ i) `Esav (Edowm, hill country of Se`ir)
............................................ A)) Elifaz
................................................. 1)) Teman
................................................. 2)) Omar
................................................. 3)) Tzefo
................................................. 4)) Ga`tam
................................................. 5)) K'naz
................................................. 6)) `Amalek
............................................ B)) Re`u'el
................................................. 1)) Nachat
................................................. 2)) Zerach
................................................. 3)) Shammah
................................................. 4)) Mizah
............................................ C)) Ye`ush
............................................ D)) Ya`lam
............................................ E)) Korach
........................................ii) Ya`aqov (Isra'el)
............................................ A)) Re`uven
............................................ B)) Shim'own
............................................ C)) Leviy
............................................ D)) Y'hudah (Jews)
............................................ E)) Dan
............................................ F)) Naftaliy
............................................ G)) Gad
............................................ H)) Asher
............................................. I)) Yissakhar
.............................................J)) Z'vulun
.............................................K)) Yosef
................................................. 1)) Manasheh
................................................. 2)) Efrayim
.............................................L)) Bin-Yamin
.......................................iii) Zimran
.......................................iv) Yokshan
............................................ A)) Sh'va
............................................ B)) D'dan
....................................... v) Medan
.......................................vi) Midyan
............................................ A)) `Eifah
............................................ B)) `Efer
............................................ C)) Chanokh
............................................ D)) Avida
............................................ E)) Elda`ah
......................................vii) Yishbak
.....................................viii) Shuach
............................ 2) Nachor
.................................. a) B'tu'el
....................................... i) Rivkah
...................................... ii) Lavan
............................................ A)) Le'ah
............................................ B)) Rachel
............................ 3) Haran
.................................. a) Lowt
....................................... i) Mo`av
...................................... ii) Ammon
....B. Yoktan
........ 1. Almodad
........ 2. Shelef
........ 3. Hatsar-Mavet
........ 4. Yerach
........ 5. Hadoram
........ 6. Uzal
........ 7. Diklah
........ 8. `Oval
........ 9. Avima'el
.......10. Sheva
.......11. Ofir
.......12. Havilah
.......13. Yovav

ALL of these progeny of `EVer were technically "Hebrews." The word for "Hebrew" in Hebrew is "`IVriyt" (pronounced "eev-REET"), spelled "ayin-Vet-reish-yud-tav," and the word for "`EVer" in Hebrew is spelled "ayin-Vet-reish." The red section is the subset of Avram or Avraham and his children, the blue section is the subset of Isra'el and his children, and the purple entry is Y'hudah (Judah) and his children, the "Jews." "AVram" is a different word altogether; it is spelled "alef-Vet-reish-mem." It does not belong to the same family of words.

We are also told,...

Genesis 10:24-30
24 Arpakhshad fathered Shelach, and Shelach fathered ‘Ever. 25 To ‘Ever were born two sons. One was given the name Peleg [division], because during his lifetime the earth was divided. His brother’s name was Yoktan. 26 Yoktan fathered Almodad, Shelef, Hatzar-Mavet, Yerach, 27 Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, 28 ‘Oval, Avima’el, Sheva, 29 Ofir, Havilah and Yovav — all these were the sons of Yoktan. 30 Their territory stretched from Mesha, as you go toward S’far, to the mountain in the east.
CJB

That takes in all of Asia Minor all the way over to the country of Media beyond Mesopotamia! And, this was several hundred years before Avram came along! They already had a HUGE foothold among their distant relatives, the descendants of Yafet (Japheth). I don't dispute that "Iberia" and "Hibernia" and "Hebrides" might indeed stem from the name "`EVer," but I DO dispute that this means that they were descendants of Avraham, and I CERTAINLY doubt whether they were descendants of Isra'el! That does NOT necessarily follow. On the other hand, it MAY be true; it's a possibility, but without Yeshua`s knowledge as input, how are you EVER going to prove it?!

(Sorry about the "smiley" coming from the b's and the closing parenthesis, but I'm just going to leave it. I tried to put this in an outline form such that the progeny of each person is listed as "subpoints" under him.)

 

[veteran]

The historical proof exists with the ancient histories, including the Assyrian tablets, the Jehu Steele, the Behistun Rock inscriptions and pictographs, the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus (and others like Herodotus, Strabo, Bebe, etc.), and The Bible prophecy itself. Even the study of anthropology has unwittingly helped with the proof with the subject concerning the Cimmerian peoples who migrated from the east into Asia Minor and Europe and became the founders of the western nations. The promises manifest according to what was given to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and his sons Ephraim and Manasseh are also further Biblical proofs. Even 2 Esdras points to the migrations of the ten tribes into the west.

One of the problems is that the crept in unawares of the Canaanite nations into Judah fight against this matter, because it starts revealing the matter Christ Jesus mentioned in Rev.2 & 3 about Jews that say they are Jews, but do lie and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. This is why the very last part of Zechariah 14 declares when Christ returns those Canaanites that crept in among Judah will be cast out of His House. Christ further pointed to those within His parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13. It's those false Jews of Canaanite and Idumean heritage that most deny the migrations of the ten tribes of Israel into the west, and even try to persuade many of Israel to think they have no heritage of Israel at all. What irony! But The LORD is soon going to settle the matter with His return.

 

[logabe]

Hi Logabe.
This is how i see the first resurrection.
　
This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
　
Participants can be assured that they will not be hurt at final judgment...as their names are wrtten in book of life.
　
　
I feel like i have that assurance now, and every born again person knows that Jesus bore the penalty they would have recieved at the final judgment, so rest assured....(and behave yourself.)
　
Im glad you ref Jn 5, but back up a few verses and look at these ....
　
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
The same promise is given in rev 20 and Jn 5, being the final judgment wont hurt us.
　
Jesus said the time "now is" for all who come to faith in him, to participate in the blessings of a first resurrection.
　
That would mean that our being priests "now is"
　
　
Rev 1
John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen
He has released us and he has made us already.We are more than conquerers through him that loves us, so reign on, overcome,run the race,stay awake and keep the clothes given you until the opening of the book and the time of everlasting reward.
Rev 5
"Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
1Pet 2
　
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Yes Jeffweeder... I see what you are saying and I agree with your
analogy. What we need to recognize @ this stage of our process of
becoming a "Chosen Generation" is God is preparing us to take over
the world. As we submit ourselves to God in our everyday life, @
some point God is going to choose who will qualify for the 1st
resurrection. Look @ this, 1st John 3:2-3.

2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has
not appeared as yet what we will be. We know
that when He appears, we will be like Him, because
we will see Him just as He is.
3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him
purifies himself, just as He is pure.

In other words, John says that in one sense we are NOW the
children of God, even though there is a "hope" for something
that "WE SHALL BE" in the future. In other words, though we
are children or sons today, this does not mean that we have it
all today. We are "heirs," not grown-up sons who have already
received their inheritance. This is in full agreement with Paul in
Rom. 8:16 and 17, saying,

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we
are children of God,
17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow
heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that
we may also be glorified with Him.

Like the nation of Israel, we have come out of the House of Bondage
and are on a journey to the Promised Land. God has called His sons
out of Egypt and is bringing them to their inheritance. The purpose of
the second coming of Christ is to bring us into our Promised Land.
This is not a matter of going to heaven, as if to say that heaven is our
inheritance. It is a matter of the heavenly tabernacle coming down to
earth and clothing us with His glory--the glorified body. That glorified
body is what Adam lost at the beginning when he sinned. It is the lost
inheritance that is to be restored.

Logabe

 

[veteran]

Yes Jeffweeder... I see what you are saying and I agree with your
analogy. What we need to recognize @ this stage of our process of
becoming a "Chosen Generation" is God is preparing us to take over
the world. As we submit ourselves to God in our everyday life, @
some point God is going to choose who will qualify for the 1st
resurrection. Look @ this, 1st John 3:2-3.

2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has
not appeared as yet what we will be. We know
that when He appears, we will be like Him, because
we will see Him just as He is.
3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him
purifies himself, just as He is pure.

In other words, John says that in one sense we are NOW the
children of God, even though there is a "hope" for something
that "WE SHALL BE" in the future. In other words, though we
are children or sons today, this does not mean that we have it
all today. We are "heirs," not grown-up sons who have already
received their inheritance. This is in full agreement with Paul in
Rom. 8:16 and 17, saying,

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we
are children of God,
17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow
heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that
we may also be glorified with Him.

Like the nation of Israel, we have come out of the House of Bondage
and are on a journey to the Promised Land. God has called His sons
out of Egypt and is bringing them to their inheritance. The purpose of
the second coming of Christ is to bring us into our Promised Land.
This is not a matter of going to heaven, as if to say that heaven is our
inheritance. It is a matter of the heavenly tabernacle coming down to
earth and clothing us with His glory--the glorified body. That glorified
body is what Adam lost at the beginning when he sinned. It is the lost
inheritance that is to be restored.

Logabe

Where's it written that we (Christians) will "take over the world"?

I thought Christ was gong to do that, and that we simply inherit?

 

[jeffweeder]

Yes Jeffweeder... I see what you are saying and I agree with your
analogy. What we need to recognize @ this stage of our process of
becoming a "Chosen Generation" is God is preparing us to take over
the world. As we submit ourselves to God in our everyday life, @
some point God is going to choose who will qualify for the 1st
resurrection. Look @ this, 1st John 3:2-3.

2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has
not appeared as yet what we will be. We know
that when He appears, we will be like Him, because
we will see Him just as He is.
3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him
purifies himself, just as He is pure.

In other words, John says that in one sense we are NOW the
children of God, even though there is a "hope" for something
that "WE SHALL BE" in the future. In other words, though we
are children or sons today, this does not mean that we have it
all today. We are "heirs," not grown-up sons who have already
received their inheritance. This is in full agreement with Paul in
Rom. 8:16 and 17, saying,

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we
are children of God,
17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow
heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that
we may also be glorified with Him.

Like the nation of Israel, we have come out of the House of Bondage
and are on a journey to the Promised Land. God has called His sons
out of Egypt and is bringing them to their inheritance. The purpose of
the second coming of Christ is to bring us into our Promised Land.
This is not a matter of going to heaven, as if to say that heaven is our
inheritance. It is a matter of the heavenly tabernacle coming down to
earth and clothing us with His glory--the glorified body. That glorified
body is what Adam lost at the beginning when he sinned. It is the lost
inheritance that is to be restored.

Logabe

Hi Logabe.

Yes it is most certainly about the resurrection of the body that those who are born of the Spirit should be looking forward to.---the redemption of our body thanks to the promise to raise us the last day.
The second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ will reveal those whose names are in the book of life, through resurrection power in a twinkling of an eye....Eden returned..

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

The historical proof exists with the ancient histories, including the Assyrian tablets, the Jehu Steele, the Behistun Rock inscriptions and pictographs, the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus (and others like Herodotus, Strabo, Bebe, etc.), and The Bible prophecy itself. Even the study of anthropology has unwittingly helped with the proof with the subject concerning the Cimmerian peoples who migrated from the east into Asia Minor and Europe and became the founders of the western nations. The promises manifest according to what was given to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and his sons Ephraim and Manasseh are also further Biblical proofs. Even 2 Esdras points to the migrations of the ten tribes into the west.

One of the problems is that the crept in unawares of the Canaanite nations into Judah fight against this matter, because it starts revealing the matter Christ Jesus mentioned in Rev.2 & 3 about Jews that say they are Jews, but do lie and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. This is why the very last part of Zechariah 14 declares when Christ returns those Canaanites that crept in among Judah will be cast out of His House. Christ further pointed to those within His parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13. It's those false Jews of Canaanite and Idumean heritage that most deny the migrations of the ten tribes of Israel into the west, and even try to persuade many of Israel to think they have no heritage of Israel at all. What irony! But The LORD is soon going to settle the matter with His return.

C'mon, veteran, admit it! The "proof" is not proof at all! It is evidence that SUGGESTS that their ancestry was from the 10 Tribes, not definitive proof that their ancestry absolutely indeed WAS from the 10 Tribes! I'm not even saying that I disbelieve the evidence! I'm just saying that not ONE PERSON can show his ancestry - his lineage - to have conclusively come from one of those 10 Tribes! IT'S NOT EVEN IMPORTANT, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, THAT HE CAN!

Those "Canaanites," who "crept in among Y'hudah who said they were Jews when they were not but were of the synagogue of haSatan (the Enemy)," weren't EVEN "Canaanites" at all! We are talking about the congregation of believers at Smyrna and Philadelphia, both congregations in Asia Minor which is now Turkey! These imposters were from those areas, not from northern Isra'el, once known as "Cana`an." Furthermore, we are talking about these congregations in the FIRST CENTURY A.D. because it was to THEM that Yeshua` had Yochanan to write! You're being too abstract and nebulous in your interpretation of these mini-letters within Revelation.

Furthermore, Zechariah 14 is not about just these "Canaanites," as you call them, but about ALL GOYIM - ALL NON-ISRAELITE people, and I mean by that ANYONE who is not a part of the twelve tribes, will not be allowed to remain within the borders of the Isra'el of Yeshua` haMelekh (King Jesus)! However, never fear; those who are ONE WITH THE MESSIAH, those who are "IN CHRIST," ARE part of the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah) through Him! THAT'S how we all fit in!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Retrobyter,

Thank you for giving your reasons and concerns against accepting the migration of Hebrews to the islands now composing Great Britain.

One little detail has come to my attention, (which I hope to add to in the future) is that Hebrew for 'head' is 'rosh'. Scotland calls a headland, a 'ross'. Ross is a Scottish name, now. The 'head' or top, of Scotland, is named Ross, (Wester Ross, Ross and Cromarty), just as Rossia is the 'top' of the land of the main Continent. I think there are likely to be many more etymological connections, which in the wake of WWII would have been discreet to ignore.

You and veteran might find Benjamin Freedman's address dated 1961, which James Forthwright has posted on p2 of How Say You Jesus is a Jew, most interesting - although you might disagree with the conclusions, in light of Mosaic law and a verse from Ezekiel which I've posted there.

 

[Spirit Covenant]

There are two different folds of the sons of God. Those who were created by God to be mediators between God and men and those who follow the Lamb where ever He goes and are sons of the Resurrection.


Luke 20
36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

Hi Retrobyter,

Thank you for giving your reasons and concerns against accepting the migration of Hebrews to the islands now composing Great Britain.

One little detail has come to my attention, (which I hope to add to in the future) is that Hebrew for 'head' is 'rosh'. Scotland calls a headland, a 'ross'. Ross is a Scottish name, now. The 'head' or top, of Scotland, is named Ross, (Wester Ross, Ross and Cromarty), just as Rossia is the 'top' of the land of the main Continent. I think there are likely to be many more etymological connections, which in the wake of WWII would have been discreet to ignore.

You and veteran might find Benjamin Freedman's address dated 1961, which James Forthwright has posted on p2 of How Say You Jesus is a Jew, most interesting - although you might disagree with the conclusions, in light of Mosaic law and a verse from Ezekiel which I've posted there.

You misunderstand me a little. I wasn't sayint that I am "against accepting the migration of Hebrews to the islands now composing Great Britain." There are some fascinating pieces of information that could support this belief, such as the "Ro'sh-Ross" connection and the "B'rit Iysh (Covenant man)-British" connection. All I'm saying is that we can't BANK on it being true! One cannot use this belief to support anything else because it itself is too tentative.

I don't know what Benjamin Freedman would use to say otherwise, but the SCRIPTURES call Him the "King of the Jews!" He is the Son of David! He is the Messiah of God who is said to be born in Beit-Lechem of the tribe of Y'hudah! His parents had to move back to Beit-Lechem because Yosef was of the tribe and lineage of Y'hudah as a descendant of David the King. Yeshua`s mother, Miryam, was also of the tribe of Y'hudah, as evidenced by her lineage in Luke 3. There are just too many proofs for the conclusion that Yeshua` was and IS a Jew!

Shalom, "Spirit Covenant." (What a handle.)

There are two different folds of the sons of God. Those who were created by God to be mediators between God and men and those who follow the Lamb where ever He goes and are sons of the Resurrection.


Luke 20
36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

No, where'd you get THAT little piece of nonsense?! "Two different folds of the sons of God"? That's just meshuggah (crazy)! Where does the Scriptures say that there are two different folds or groups of "sons of God?" ALL who are privileged to be called "the sons of God" are "those who follow the Lamb wherever He goes" and they are the "sons of the Resurrection." NONE are "created by God to be mediators between God and men!" We are TOLD that much!

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
KJV

Stick to the Scriptures!

 

[jeffweeder]

Shalom, "Spirit Covenant." (What a handle.)



No, where'd you get THAT little piece of nonsense?! "Two different folds of the sons of God"? That's just meshuggah (crazy)! Where does the Scriptures say that there are two different folds or groups of "sons of God?" ALL who are privileged to be called "the sons of God" are "those who follow the Lamb wherever He goes" and they are the "sons of the Resurrection." NONE are "created by God to be mediators between God and men!" We are TOLD that much!

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
KJV

Stick to the Scriptures!

Thankyou for posting this. All shall be revealed when the mediators book is opened.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Retrobyter,

All your points are taken on board. I realise that the significance of the first birth is diminished since Pentecost. Acts 2:21

John 10:2 But he that enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter opens; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out. 4 And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. ... 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

 

[veteran]

It's not just about migrations to Great Britain though. It's about the migrations of the Cimmerian and Scythian tribes into Asia Minor and Europe from the east, not just the to the isles. Those are the Caucasian peoples that went through the Caucasus Mountains around the Black Sea during their treks westward. It has confused anthropologists because they claim they cannot figure out just where those peoples from the east originated from, especially since they were such a great number of people.

1930's linguist professor Leroy Waterman at University of Michigan translated inscriptions from the royal histories of the Assyrians, revealing what the Assyrians called the ten tribes of Israel. When he translated the Assyrian name, it became a title for the Cimmerians (the "C" pronounced as a "K"). That is why the word Celt was originally pronounced like 'Kelt', its origin from ancient Assyria. The Normans and Gauls of the area of western Europe were other names for the Celtic peoples. The same peoples made up the Norsk (Nordic) peoples, the Franks, Jutes, Welsh, Angles, Saxons, etc., the Caucasian peoples of old Europe. The pictographs on the Behistun Rock in nothern Iraq reveals physical features of ten tribal chieftans as Caucasian.

The Biblical evidence is to whom The Gospel was preached to after the passion of Christ, and what majority of peoples became literal nations in that Gospel of Jesus Christ. It was the same nations of Asia Minor and Europe where those Cimmerian and Scythian Caucasian peoples migrated to from the east. That was prophecy involving what Jacob said to Joseph about his son Ephraim, that Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48). God made one of the tribe of Ephraim king over the ten tribed kingdom of Israel per 1 Kings 11 when He split Israel into two separate kingdoms after Solomon's days.

Concerning the creeping in of the Canaanite peoples into Israel and Judah, that began back in Joshua's days, per Joshua 9 and Judges 2 & 3. So wanting to point that creeping in to just the time of history about the Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia doesn't work. Those crept in unawares has been a thorn in a side to the people of Israel back since then in OT history, and has probably been the main causes for Israel's falling into Baal idol worship away from God in the past, and still today with some of the people that still... cling to Baalism.

 

[veteran]

I don't know what Benjamin Freedman would use to say otherwise, but the SCRIPTURES call Him the "King of the Jews!" He is the Son of David! He is the Messiah of God who is said to be born in Beit-Lechem of the tribe of Y'hudah! His parents had to move back to Beit-Lechem because Yosef was of the tribe and lineage of Y'hudah as a descendant of David the King. Yeshua`s mother, Miryam, was also of the tribe of Y'hudah, as evidenced by her lineage in Luke 3. There are just too many proofs for the conclusion that Yeshua` was and IS a Jew!

There's that ignorance of Jewishness again.

The ten tribes of Israel were NEVER Jews, and nor is Jesus Christ "king of the Jews".

Christ Jesus is King and Lord of the whole earth, and King of Israel next upon David's throne.

The title of 'Jew' began with the small remnant of the three tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi that returned to Jerusalem after the 70 years Babylon captivity. NONE of the other tribes of Israel are mentioned there as returning. That time is also when the Jewish historian Josephus said that title of 'Jew' first began to be used, and it was used also by all the Gentiles there living in the lands of Judea too.

Foreigners of the Canaanite peoples from Judges 2 & 3, Joshua 9, and 1 Kings 9, also went captive with the "house of Judah" to Babylon, and some of those also returned with Judah to Jerusalem per the list of Ezra 2.

Pilate mocked the unbelieving Jews at Christ's crucifixion by putting up a sign on His cross titled as "King of the Jews". The Jews then asked Pilate to remove it. That's a false title to begin with, since Christ Jesus is King over ALL Israel, and not just the remnant of Jews of the "house of Judah" that God separated from the greater part of Israel after Solomon's days (1 Kings 11 forward).

It's the false Jews, the crept in unawares among Judah, that keep pushing the 'Jews are the only Israelites' lie. And the main reason they push that lie is to TRY and trick Christians into believing they should listen to Jewish teachings which align with the corruptions of Baal which the Canaanite peoples brought in among the Jews back in history.

 

[logabe]

Where's it written that we (Christians) will "take over the world"?

I thought Christ was gong to do that, and that we simply inherit?

Veteran... do you not know that the saints will judge the world?
Paul was talking to a bunch of carnal Christians. Why did he waste
his time telling them something that didn't pertain to them?

Because it does pertain to them. The goal is for them and even us
to overcome as mature Sons of God. He that Overcomes will inherit
all things and we will be one with Jesus Christ. We will only do what
we see Jesus do, and we will judge according to the way Jesus judges.

When we receive our inheritance from Jesus the Christ, we will have
power over the nations, (Rev. 2:26), and we will be granted to sit in
the throne of Jesus, (Rev. 3:21).

Veteran... are you a Jew or an Israelite? I got good news, it doesn't
matter. God will give anyone this inheritance if he or she becomes a
forgiver. Now, to answer your question, where does it say we will take
the world.

Daniel 7:27...


Logabe

 

[veteran]

Veteran... do you not know that the saints will judge the world?
Paul was talking to a bunch of carnal Christians. Why did he waste
his time telling them something that didn't pertain to them?

Because it does pertain to them. The goal is for them and even us
to overcome as mature Sons of God. He that Overcomes will inherit
all things and we will be one with Jesus Christ. We will only do what
we see Jesus do, and we will judge according to the way Jesus judges.

When we receive our inheritance from Jesus the Christ, we will have
power over the nations, (Rev. 2:26), and we will be granted to sit in
the throne of Jesus, (Rev. 3:21).

Veteran... are you a Jew or an Israelite? I got good news, it doesn't
matter. God will give anyone this inheritance if he or she becomes a
forgiver. Now, to answer your question, where does it say we will take
the world.

Daniel 7:27...


Logabe

There's a difference between the idea that Christ's elect will reign with Him in judging the world vs. literally 'taking over' the world. The former is dependent upon Christ's coming to take over this world, the latter idea does not, which is why it's false.

We shall inherit through Christ Jesus when He returns to this earth in our near future.

 

[MTPockets]

The Sons of God will be revealed at the return of Christ.They are the ones who are worthy to obtain the Resurrection from the dead and the catching up to meet Christ at His coming.

They will be revealed by Christs Power of Spirit.

Hi! 'Reed like unto a Rod'
Your hurried comment here caught my attention and I'd like to contribute to it please.
You wrote: "The Sons of God will be revealed at the return of Christ".

I'm afraid that this idea isn't exactly scriptural.
Why do you think the title of the last Biblical book is "The Revelation"? What is being revealed? If your answer is that it is speaking about future events, you'd be only half right. Instead, the entire book of "The Revelation" is speaking about the future revealing of the Sons of God.
What? You don't think so? Well, the very first verse plainly states it: "The revelation of Jesus Christ".

The revealing of the Sons of God ARE the return of Christ ... better said: the Sons of God are the APPEARING of Christ.
Jesus first APPEARS in the flesh of His faithful before returning with all those from past times who belong to him.
The sequence is first IN and followed by WITH.... appearance ('parousia') followed by coming/return.

In the time preceding the rapture it is said of Jesus that He is marveled at in all who believed, (2Thess 1:10). In the spirit John saw those who are conformed to the image of the Son being caught up in the sight of all to meet the Lord.

This incredible event forms the splendid climax of God's intents and purpose for every human life .. it is what creation is groaning for.
For those unable to personally testify to this marvelous expectation, their hopes are limited to that of the Old Testament believers who could only live under the shadow of what our New Covenant promises, "They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance", (Heb 11:13).

There are countless sincere and earnest Christians in our days who unwittingly live a so-called born-again experience but who enjoy nothing more than the Old Testament faithful. This is because they have failed to become disciples of the kingdom. They only know the Gospel ABOUT Jesus and not the Gospel OF Jesus ... (Matt 4:23; Matt 9:35; Mark 1:14). But our confidence is that "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come", (Matt 24:14).

The Lord desires that we be transformed and renewed in our minds, that we should leave the old, visible realities and lay hold on the new spiritual and invisible things of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Here is an example of what I'm meaning to say:
Howz 'bout you pick up your Bible and look up Matthew 24:30 where it reads, "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory".
And, I remind you of Revelation 1:7 where it says, ""Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen",
What's your thoughts concerning that verse? What does it mean with the words, "coming on the clouds of the sky"?
The Old Testament saints would suspect that these words are speaking about events originating from out of the physical/visible world.
But we Christians of the New Testament fully know that the words are speaking about events from out of the invisible world ... the kingdom of heaven.
So, OK, let's assume you might agree with me so far.
What then? How should a Born Again spiritual man to perceive this image of clouds?
What does it mean when it says that Jesus is coming on/with the clouds?
Well, think about it ... what are clouds? What do they consist of?
Tiny droplets of water, right?
So far, so good!
What does tiny droplets forming a cloud got to do with the appearing of Jesus?
Well, the answer is rather simple when you think about it.
Think about evaporation ... this is how the clouds are formed.
When water evaporates it rises up unseen and forms clouds. Countless millions of droplets of water are evaporated from the earth and rise up to form a cloud.

Jesus comes with His faithful. His faithful form the cloud because their inner man has resurrected from the sea of Death and are now “raised to sit in heavenly places”. The profound mystery of those inspired by the Spirit of Jesus is that they have been “raised to newness of life” and are intimately connected to God; and are governed by the Spirit of Life.

The water droplet is the unseen inner man of the heart; it rises up by the power of the Word of Him who is called the Sun of righteousness. Every born again Christian's inner man has been evaporated (raised) from the earth (Sea of Death) and now dwell in heavenly places.
In the heavenly places all the drops of water together form the cloud. As a drop of water evaporates from the sea and rises into the air, so, at his regeneration, man is resurrected from the Sea of Death and transplanted into the heavenly places. Once there, he begins to function in the Kingdom of God, (Eph 2:6).

Clouds are images of the re-born (spiritual mankind) who are birthed by the gospel of Jesus Christ.
As millions of water drops high above the earth form a close unity, so the faithful church has her position in the heavenly places.

Matthew 24:30 says: "Then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"; "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, everyone who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen", (Rev 1:7).

Jesus returns with his church. When Jesus returns, He will be inseparably united with his people. That is why it says:" Behold, he is coming with the clouds". And that is why it becomes true that we, "have been seated in heavenly places". When at the close of time the church is changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, to join the cloud, the church of all ages, it says: "And in the sight of their foes they went up".

In the invisible world the waters, the spirits, are separated. All religions on earth are from below. Only those who belong to Jesus are from above. Jesus told the religious leaders of his day: "You are from below. I am from above; you are of this world; I am not of this world (John 8:23). At his death a child of God is unbound from the sphere of the earth after the body, but his soul and spirit, the inner, invisible man, are eternal. This inner man remains in the body of the Lord, that is in the cloud. The Son of man is united with the cloud just as, in another image, He is the head united with his body. On his head still is the golden crown of life mentioned in chapter 6:2.

Now, here's the exciting and splendid event from the view of those who have trained themselves to "put your minds on things above" :
When the bible says that in the latter days Jesus will come with the clouds of heaven, it means that He returns with His church.
As at daybreak the morning clouds descend on the earth as a dew of heaven, so in the end-time our Lord returns to earth with his church.

This descending shows that the believer's inner man receives a new body, enabling him to function in the visible world.
1Corinthians 15:44 says that a spiritual body is raised. To be raised means that by an outside force a living person is put back into the earthly sphere.

Again, I remind you of Colossians 3:1-2 which reads, "Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things".

When somebody dies not 'in Christ', that is, not belonging to the church, he remains united with the sea. For his spirit did not rise from the sea towards the clouds. His soul and spirit then disappear in the abyss, the prison, in which also are the fallen, evil angels.
We read that at the resurrection it is the sea, (not the earth), which gives up its dead: "And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them", (20:13). Sea and Hades are synonymous, while death indicates the power which governs Hades.
So, now we also understand that, once this cloud has descended from heaven onto the earth, there will be no more sea or night or mountains, which will not be found any more. So the evil powers draw a man's spirit and soul towards the bottomless pit, while the power of the Holy Spirit takes the children of God towards the cloud.

 

[dragonfly]

The water droplet is the unseen inner man of the heart; it rises up by the power of the Word of Him who is called the Sun of righteousness.

Loved this line! (Loved your whole post, MT. )

The only counterintuitive line is this one: 'To be raised means that by an outside force a living person is put back into the earthly sphere.'

Into a new 'earthly sphere'?


Psalm 75:1 Unto thee, O God, do we give thanks, [unto thee] do we give thanks: for [that] thy name is near thy wondrous works declare. 2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly. {receive...: or, take a set time} 3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah. 4 I said to the fools, Deal not foolishly: and to the wicked, Lift not up the horn: 5 Lift not up your horn on high: speak [not with] a stiff neck. 6 For promotion [comes] neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. {south: Heb. desert} 7 But God [is] the judge: he puts down one, and sets up another. 8 For in the hand of the LORD [there is] a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he pours out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring [them] out, [and] drink [them]. 9 But I will declare for ever; I will sing praises to the God of Jacob. 10 All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; [but] the horns of the righteous shall be exalted.

Preceding the above psalm is the Aramaic word Altaschith, which means destroy not.


Isaiah 24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falls off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.


2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write to you; in [both] which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given to him has written unto you;

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that has wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also has given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.


Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected [the same] in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and travail in pain together until now. 23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].