Does Satan run the world? Or does God?

[BlessedPeace]

I even suggest revelation could have been written as close to 67 Ad, and sent out. Because the time was coming quickly upon theM.

All the Bible letters and their written dates are all debatable to me.

Everything about the Bible is debatable to you.
You advise not to follow traditions of men and then presume as a man to take issue with scripture. And the men who compiled it.

 

[MatthewG]

Everything about the Bible is debatable to you.
You advise not to follow traditions of men and then presume as a man to take issue with scripture. And the men who compiled it.

Everything in the world can be debated, did man go to the moon or not? Or are conspiracy theories really real? Or Does God exist or not? I’m a confusing man, but continue to believe and trust in the gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Then you haven't yet studied Revelation's content carefully enough. The proof for the very precise early date of AD 59-early AD 60 is there.

3Rs, Will you specify chapter or verses?

 

[3 Resurrections]

...According to church tradition, John did not leave Palestine for Asia Minor until after the Jewish revolt against Rome in 66-70 AD

Tradition is not proof. Never has been. And there was more than one "John" in the ministry in the early church (John surnamed Mark, for instance).

John in writing Revelation says he was presently at that time a "companion in tribulation" along with his brethren (Rev. 1:9). Combined with all the other datable events John gives in Revelation, this "tribulation" period can only be the one which happened just after the AD 57 Ephesian riot in Asia, an episode in which Paul said he had "despaired even of life" (2 Cor. 1:8). The Jews antagonistic to the faith took advantage of that riot directed against Paul to continue persecuting the believers. John's being sent to Patmos (just off coast from Ephesus, and under its jurisdiction) was a result of the persecution in Asia against Christians which was jumpstarted by the AD 57 Ephesian riot against Paul.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Tradition is not proof. Never has been. And there was more than one "John" in the ministry in the early church (John surnamed Mark, for instance).

John in writing Revelation says he was presently at that time a "companion in tribulation" along with his brethren (Rev. 1:9). Combined with all the other datable events John gives in Revelation, this "tribulation" period can only be the one which happened just after the AD 57 Ephesian riot in Asia, an episode in which Paul said he had "despaired even of life" (1 Cor. 1:8). The Jews antagonistic to the faith took advantage of that riot directed against Paul to continue persecuting the believers. John's being sent to Patmos (just off coast from Ephesus, and under its jurisdiction) was a result of the persecution in Asia against Christians which was jumpstarted by the AD 57 Ephesian riot against Paul.

You're reaching.

 

[3 Resurrections]

3Rs, Will you specify chapter or verses?

I have mentioned two passages in Revelation already above which prove an early date of AD 59 / 60. You and I have gone over these texts and many others before on GCF in my comment # 14 for the topic "When was Revelation Written?" at the following link:

www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=54403/

All of this is combined internal evidence from Revelation itself that narrows down the date of Revelation's composition to a very precise period between late AD 59 and early AD 60.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You're reaching.

Tell that to Paul and his companions who had the screaming Ephesian mob of approximately 25,000 people in the theater protesting their teaching in Acts 19. Tribulation indeed. Ephesus was the capital of Asia at the time. Any persecution against the believers in that city spread throughout Asia afterwards. Paul said God had "delivered us from so great a death" on that occasion, and would yet deliver him.

 

[MatthewG]

@3 Resurrections, it’s possible that John had written this a little earlier than it was perhaps sent out, I have heard this before. He may have written it 13 years prior, when Paul mentions he knew a man who went to the third heaven. So it being around that time could be possible before he wrote the rest of it and sent it out. That would make sense.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Tell that to Paul and his companions who had the screaming Ephesian mob of approximately 25,000 people in the theater protesting their teaching in Acts 19. Tribulation indeed. Ephesus was the capital of Asia at the time. Any persecution against the believers in that city spread throughout Asia afterwards. Paul said God had "delivered us from so great a death" on that occasion, and would yet deliver him.

".... The Literature of the Period. The history of the Christians in this period is very obscure because of the scanty literature produced in it. What literature we have of these years may be divided into two classes: (1) Scripture books. These are the three epistles of John, which were written at Ephesus a while before his banishment, probably about 80 or 85 A. D., and the Revelation, which was composed while in exile on Patmos about 95 or 96 A. D. (2) Some early Christian writings not included in the canon of the New Testament. Of this class of writings is the Epistle of Clement of Rome to the Corinthians, written about 96-98 A.D., and the Epistle of Barnabas and the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, probably written sometime before A.D.100. This then is a period of transition from the Canonical to the Patristic literature."

Destruction of the Temple to the Death of the Apostle John.

 

[3 Resurrections]

@3 Resurrections, it’s possible that John had written this a little earlier than it was perhaps sent out, I have heard this before. He may have written it 13 years prior, when Paul mentions he knew a man who went to the third heaven. So it being around that time could be possible before he wrote the rest of it and sent it out. That would make sense.

Sorry, MatthewG, but that isn't possible that it could have been written some thirteen years earlier. The reason for this is the identity of the sixth and seventh "kings" on the Scarlet Beast, which was "ABOUT TO arise" in Revelation 17, and was also ABOUT TO "go into destruction". There was a 6th "king" on this Scarlet Beast which John said "IS" presently in existence, and a 7th "king" which "had not yet come", but when he did, his term would only last for a "little space".

Those 7 and the 8th "kings" on the Scarlet Beast were not regular monarchs or emperors as we suppose. Scripture defines those "kings of the earth" of Revelation 17:18 as being the high priests of the land of Israel. These 7 "kings" and the 8th "king" were the 8 members of the high priestly family of Annas, which held a virtual monopoly on the high priesthood role for much of the first century from AD 6 until AD 66.

Five of those high priest "kings" had "fallen" in death before John was writing Revelation. The 6th "king" which John said "IS" still in existence at that time was Theophilus (to whom Luke had directed the books of Luke and Acts). The 7th "king" which "had not yet come" into his office as high priest was Ananus, who would be appointed high priest in AD 63. His tenure as the 7th "king" only lasted a "little space" since he was deposed from that office after only a brief three months, because he had overstepped the bounds of his authority in having James the Just executed.

This imminent coming for Ananus as the next high priest "king" in AD 63 means that Revelation had to have been written AFTER the death of the other five high priests (Annas, Eleazar, Caiphas, Jonathan, & Matthias), but BEFORE AD 63 when Ananus would come into the high priest office as one of the "kings of the earth".

As for the one Paul knew (more than 14 years prior to around AD 57 when 2 Cor. was written) who was caught away to the third heaven and heard words unlawful to utter, I do think this was the writer of Revelation whom Paul had known earlier in the 40's. However, what the man heard in Paradise wasn't necessarily the content of Revelation's prophecies. You see, I see scripture presenting John the author of Revelation as being Lazarus, the disciple whom Christ loved. Lazarus (John Eleazar) the beloved disciple was dead for four days, and his spirit caught away to Paradise when he would have likely heard those words not lawful to be uttered.

 

[MatthewG]

Many things can be possible with God concerning, with what I mentioned. You are more than welcome to disagree. off to bed here gotta work tomorrow!

I’ll go ahead and say, I don’t know everything you do concerning some things you mention and therefore have no real reaction to them. Would have to go dig myself. It’s all about faith and trusting God, in my opinion of course, and I don’t know everything.

I’m saying half of revelation or a portion, had been written before being finished in case you miss read. I still believe that the revelation message was sent at a more later time perhaps 67-68 Ad as the time was soon upon them.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

I have mentioned two passages in Revelation already above which prove an early date of AD 59 / 60. You and I have gone over these texts and many others before on GCF in my comment # 14 for the topic "When was Revelation Written?" at the following link:

www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=54403/

All of this is combined internal evidence from Revelation itself that narrows down the date of Revelation's composition to a very precise period between late AD 59 and early AD 60.

Thanks for the link.... Sent you a message... Later

 

[3 Resurrections]

I’m saying half of revelation or a portion, had been written before being finished in case you miss read. I still believe that the revelation message was sent at a more later time perhaps 67-68 Ad as the time was soon upon them.

I did notice that in what you posted, thank you. And I have read others who also think that Revelation was broken up into more than one portion - some even proposing several authors for Revelation (which John does not allow for Revelation's contents in Rev. 22:18).

The reason why I believe the entire book of Revelation was written at the same time is the way John introduces and also concludes the book. As you are no doubt aware, Revelation 1:3 announces that whoever keeps the words of prophecy of the book and what is written are blessed because "the time is at hand". This identical phrase is also used in the conclusion in Revelation 22:10, where John is told not to seal the sayings of the prophecy of Revelation, because "the time is at hand". These two verses of the time being "at hand" for those prophecies bracket the entire contents of Revelation between them, showing a presentation of the entire book as a unified whole, written and sent in a single period of time.

 

[MatthewG]

I did notice that in what you posted, thank you. And I have read others who also think that Revelation was broken up into more than one portion - some even proposing several authors for Revelation (which John does not allow for Revelation's contents in Rev. 22:18).

The reason why I believe the entire book of Revelation was written at the same time is the way John introduces and also concludes the book. As you are no doubt aware, Revelation 1:3 announces that whoever keeps the words of prophecy of the book and what is written are blessed because "the time is at hand". This identical phrase is also used in the conclusion in Revelation 22:10, where John is told not to seal the sayings of the prophecy of Revelation, because "the time is at hand". These two verses of the time being "at hand" for those prophecies bracket the entire contents of Revelation between them, showing a presentation of the entire book as a unified whole, written and sent in a single period of time.

Thank you for sharing. Let’s continue to move forward on to maturity in the Lord Yeshua and love God first and love others as ourselves. While we got the time on earth before we are taken away.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Thank you for sharing. Let’s continue to move forward on to maturity in the Lord Yeshua and love God first and love others as ourselves. While we got the time on earth before we are taken away.

You're right - life is brief enough that we need to concentrate on the essentials. The reason why I belabor such points as this one above is in an effort to dispel the weight of fear that most people live with when they think of end times themes. This fearful attitude has been conditioned into them by a flawed eschatology that is so far off-track from the message God gave. I lived with that same fear for the majority of my Christian life, and by God's mercy was shown from the scriptures how mistaken I had been taught on these themes. I've said it before on other forums - you couldn't pay me enough to abandon the sense of peace I have now with regard to God's plans for mankind's future.

 

[Behold]

this "tribulation" period can only be the one which happened just after the AD 57

-
Preterism was first expounded by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar during the Counter-Reformation. The preterist view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants, who identified the Pope with the Antichrist.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Preterism was first expounded by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar during the Counter-Reformation. The preterist view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants, who identified the Pope with the Antichrist.

Wrong. Preteristic teaching was first given by Christ and the disciples. It fills the NT writings. It doesn't matter how the Catholic Church has figured in misusing this truth for their own ends. They will answer to God for their own issues, but it doesn't negate the facts as presented by scripture.

As wrong as the Papal role was and is, it is not what Paul was referring to or what John spoke of concerning the many antichrists that were then present in the first century. The Reformers got this wrong, and the mistaken idea has been perpetuated by others since then.

 

[MatthewG]

-
Preterism was first expounded by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar during the Counter-Reformation. The preterist view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants, who identified the Pope with the Antichrist.

Everything is debatable. You know, I wonder how those who were on their deathbed promised to see Christ coming, only not to have it happen. It’s a sad thing to lead person to have solid foundation on that hope alone…

Cause that’s all they will do is sit and wait… never progress or mature in the spirit… just sit and wait … Jesus is coming to get me! Hallelujah.

 

[Jericho]

I like to use the landlord analogy. God is like the landland of this world; He owns it. He gave the world to us for a certain period of time to govern over it. However, when Adam fell, he opened the door for Satan and his minions to become squatters in this world. In doing so, Adam gave away partial dominion over this world to Satan. That's why Satan is called the god of this world (2Co 4:4). When Satan tempted Jesus with all the kingdoms of the world, Jesus didn't contest that he had this authority. You can't tempt someone with something you don't have. When our lease over this world expires, so to speak, God will retake full control over this world and kick Satan out.

 

[BlessedPeace]

-
Preterism was first expounded by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar during the Counter-Reformation. The preterist view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants, who identified the Pope with the Antichrist.

The full preterest view is not defensible today. Revelation is prophetic, not historic.