Dear Eternally Grateful,
Where is your scripture? It is easy to say someone is wrong but to present the scriptures that contradict what they have said is not so easy.
Joe
Avoiding : The Cults.. #2 : CALVINISM -"TULIP"
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Where is your scripture? It is easy to say someone is wrong but to present the scriptures that contradict what they have said is not so easy.
Joe
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
You are missing the fact that I. the natural,carnal,mind state,which all are unless or until the Holy Spirit enters in, we are not even conscious of what the choice fully entails in the long run. Because the things of God are foolishness to us.
We don't make the choice not to believe because we don't know the ultimatum.
More people believe about God, then dont believe in God at all.
So, as Romans 1 says..... There is no excuse for anyone to deny God., as God has shown Himself to ALL.
So, innate in all of humanity is the ABILITY to BELIEVE.
Everyone BELIEVES...... Everyone TRUSTS, as that is FAITH...
So, its not that there is no Faith, ....... as there is alway faith, in everyone. (Trust).
Therefore, What is going on, is that there is no Faith in CHRIST, until the person is directed to Jesus, so that they can TRUST in Christ.
To place THEIR FAITH, in Christ.
God is looking for YOUR Faith, in Christ......not His........ Reader.
The FAITH is in them, and in YOU.... but its not given to Christ until they or YOU, Believe in Jesus.
This is why the Gospel exists......its Preached and taught and shared so that everyone can have FAITH in it, ...
As "Faith comes by HEARING" the Gospel.......,not by being caused to have it by God.
Its already there, but its not yet Given to Jesus. as "faith in Christ".
When i preach or teach, and there are are unsaved people in the room, or online, .. they have FAITH.. but its not faith in Christ, yet
Its Faith in Buddha, Mary, or SCIENCE...or Muhammed.
See that? They have FAITH......as everyone believes (TRUSTS) in many things, already.
So, the Gospel is given to them so that might : BELIEVE IN JESUS, and the advantage the Gospel has, is that the Holy Spirit reveals it to their heart.......
He is not causing them to believe, and they are the BELIEVER, . not the Holy Spirit....but The HS reveals Jesus and their need for Him, so that THEY can put THEIR FAITH In Christ ....and God will accept it, instantly.
So, all have faith, and all can "come to the knowledge of the TRUTH",..... but to place their faith in Christ.....is their choice, once they know its TRUE.
As it's THEIR = faith and their free will.
Some wont trust (place their faith). in this TRUTH they know is true, because they want to wait........, and if they died today, they didnt go to Heaven.
Dear Behold,
You said:
Notice also, ...you are 1st """SANCTIFIED "in CHRIST",.. and that precedes,..,= 2nd = the "called to be saints".
Here is how that works.
And example... You have to become a Christian, before you can be called a Saint.
From your comments, I can tell that you do not understand what is required for a person to be converted so as to become a saint.
As James says, conversion into a child of God requires both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit:
James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
The child of God is the "precious fruit of the earth". The "coming of the Lord" that James mentions is when Christ "comes again" and gives the believer the Latter Rain of the Spirit. The church James was writing to had already received the Early Rain of the Spirit but not the Latter Rain. The Early Rain is what caused them to be "called to be saints" and is when their period of "waiting" for the Lord to return with the Latter Rain began. The Latter Rain of the Spirit is what confirms their election as a saint and is what leads to their conversion.
Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful RAIN (the Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary (in a fallen away state).
The concept of the Early and Latter Rains is taught in many places of scriptures but it usually doesn't use those terms.
Look at the marriage analogy; the betrothal occurs when a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit. The Early Rain is what makes the person a "chaste virgin".
2Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Paul's statement is linked to the Parable of the Ten Virgins. All ten virgins are "chaste" at the beginning of the parable because they have all received the Early Rain of the Spirit. But as they wait for the Lord to return to confirm their election as His Bride (saint), they all "slumbered and slept" at night. Sleeping is a spirit word (symbol) which represents death and night is a spirit word which represents spiritual blindness. In other words, while all ten virgins waited for the Lord to return, they all committed spiritual fornication with Satan and lost their virginity - they were no longer chaste. They had become apostate and lost their salvation. The parable then says that at midnight (the deepest part of their spiritual blindness when they had become "worse than the first", Mat 12:43-45), the call goes out that the Bridegroom is returning. This is the call of Elijah to repent from works and return to faith. All ten virgins awake and trim their lamps but only the Wise virgins have the extra oil (anointing of the Latter Rain). With the extra oil, the Wise Virgins' faith is restored and they are "born again" as a child of God. This change allows them meet the Bridegroom as a chaste virgin again. The Bridegroom then takes His virgin back to heaven (spiritually speaking) for the marriage to occur and subsequent conversion.
In Paul's letter to the Corinthians, Paul says that the Corinthians are "called to be saints" (1Cor 1:2). Then in verses 6-8, Paul says this:
1Cor 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you (the Early Rain): 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
In these three verses, Paul is reaffirming that the Corinthians have received the Early Rain of the Spirit and are waiting for the Lord to return. Paul says that when Christ returns, Christ will confirm their election to the "end" (point of conversion) so that the Law can no longer accuse them of sin.
The story of the woman (represents Christ's Bride/Elect) taken in adultery (John 8:3-11) also teaches when a person comes out from being under the Law so that they will be blameless in the Day of the Lord (when the Elect are judged during the conversion process). When Christ writes in the earth the first time, that act represents the Early Rain of the Spirit. The Pharisees do not drop their stones at that time because the Law still accuses the woman. When Christ writes in the earth the second time, it represents His return with the Latter Rain of the Spirit. After Christ has symbolically given the woman both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The Law cannot longer accuse the woman of sin. A stone is a symbol for the Law.
You said:
YOU have to believe in Jesus, before you can be born again., Not God believe in Jesus, for you, through you.
You are putting the cart before the horse. A person must become a child of God BEFORE they can believe in Jesus. Carnal mankind cannot believe in Christ because:
1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It is only AFTER Christ gives a person the Early Rain of the Spirit will they have any faith in Him. That is because the Early Rain of the Spirit produces the child of God within the person and it is the child of God who has faith. Without the Early Rain, no one would ever call Jesus "Lord":
1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
You said:
The Foreknowledge of God "" choses""" those who are in Christ, to be predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ.
See that?
Let me paraphase that, and then i'll teach it as Calvin/Tulip twisted it.
(Paraphrase)... God knew who would believe in Jesus, (FOREKNOWLEDGE) before they were born again "in Christ' ...and once they are "in Christ"= then God has predestined them to become conformed into the image of Christ.
Your statement above is completely false and blasphemous to the name and character of God. You have made God out to be a liar who takes credit for another person's work.
With your statement, you are actually saying that because of God's foreknowledge of knowing who is going to accept Christ, that He, in turn, claims that he chose the person in the first place. How ridiculous!
Here is where God's foreknowledge comes from:
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
God has the ability to declare the end from the beginning (foreknowledge) because He knows that He will cause all things to happen exactly as He has said they would happen. He has spoken it and He will bring it to pass.
Eph 1:4 According as he (God) hath chosen us in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, NOT OF WORKS, but of him that calleth.
So when God says that He chose the Elect from the foundation of the world, He meant exactly that - He chose them. And because He chose them, He will make their salvation happen before they die.
John 1:13 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.
The false gospel that you are following has taught you to mix man's works with the works of Christ. By doing so, you have developed a works based belief system and have applied it to your understanding of scripture. Your "paraphrasing" of the verse about God's foreknowledge is a perfect example of your twisted way of understanding God's Word.
Joe
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BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
The above must be read in light of Jeremiah 17:9, which reads:
The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
To God Be The Glory
Dear JunChosen,
Jer 17:9 is only true of the heart that is within an unconverted person.
For a converted believer who has been given both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, they will have a "new heart" which is governed by a "new spirit" (Holy Spirit):
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
The new heart/heart of flesh is the one that Rom 10:9 is referencing.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
The wicked heart cannot believe in Christ and is headed for destruction.
Joe
Here is what is "required for a person to be Converted, (Saint).
1.) Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS"...
So, you have to be a sinner.
and then...
Jesus said...>"YOU must be born......again".
You confused "scripture" with Calvinism.
And that is because all of His disciples are trained (mind blinded) to do exactly that....and nothing else.
Welcome to : Calvinism..
God makes : Christians
Calvin makes : Calvinists
Those are not the same.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Oh its not epi i stand in judgement of nor that i condemn . ITS HIS DOCTRINE that be the problem .
And just cause a man can spout certain truths certainly dont always mean HE KNOWETH or EVEN IS OF THE TRUTH .
as we see with buddists , muslims , and even athiests and others . Even they can spout some truths
But believe you me , THEY are not of GOD , are not born again , they reject GOD for they reject HIS MESSIAH
the GLORIOUS CHRIST JESUS . now if a man do that
and or even allows it to be taught or believed that those who deny JESUS is the CHRIST , somehow still know GOD
IS A BLASPHEMER . john would have called them a liar , an anti christ . and you well know
an anti christ HAS NOT ETERNAL LIFE , IS NOT BORN AGAIN .
people can mouth truths , many a false prophet can mouth truths and yet still KNOW NOT THE TRUTH
for they have not truly submitted unto the TRUTH THE WAY AND THE LIFE . that BE JESUS THE CHRIST .
now dance a jig of praise round the house and down the streets unto the glorious LORD .
Ritajanice
Born-Again
I hope you aren’t calling Epi a false prophet, because that would be accusing him of not being a Born Again..
I believe that is against forum rules, just sayin.xx
Are you saying Epi is not of God?
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Epis own words will condmen him . I come not to condemn but to correct . That is the way your question shall be answered .
cause i know set ups when i see them . Epi , like all will stand before the JUDGE .
if what we taught CONTRADICTED THE JESUS , the TRUE GOSPEL , well none will like the words they hear on HIS DAY
when the LORD sets before him the goats and the sheep and they find out too little and too late
they were a goat . NOW this i desire for none . so by grace , by the spirit , by the power of the RISEN SAVOIR
HE ALONE is who this lamb gonna point too and WILL correct any and all who contradict HIS GOSPEL .
FOr sure and for certain i can say this , EPI IS IN DIRE DANGER . and as such i want to see him
no longer in dire danger . He must stop the preaching of the social inclusive gospel . It wont be saving him or anyone else .
NOW Its time we put JESUS FIRST AGAIN , HIS GOSPEL and HIS TEACHINGS FIRST AGAIN . we wont go wrong BY DOING THAT dear sister .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Epi is simply a man in great danger lest he repent of Some of the things HE has taught and led people to believe to be true .
JESUS , the DIRE NEED TO BELEIVE ON HIM , IT MUST BE PUT FIRST AGAIN .
cause if one believeth not , believe me when i say this , THEIR WORKS CANNOT SAVE THEM .
BUT JESUS CAN . thus HE and HIS GOSPEL is what i shall teach .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
And even as MOSES lifted up the serpent in the wilderness
so too must the SON of man be lifted up
that WHOSOEVER BELEIVETH will not perish but have ETERNAL LIFE .
For GOD so loved the world that he gave HIS only begotten SON
that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES on HIM shall not Perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE .
FOR GOD sent not HIS SON into the world to CONDEMN the world
but that the world through him might be saved .
HE WHO BELIEVES is NOT condemned , OH BUT he who BELIEVETH NOT IS CONDMENED
for he has not BELIEVED on the name of the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD
and THIS is CONDMENATION that LIGHT has come into the world but men have loved darkness
rather than light because their deeds were evil
He who doeth evil hates the light and will not come to the LIGHT lest his evil deeds be reproved
HE that doeth TRUTH cometh to the LIGHT . THE GOSPEL is the message of RECONCILATION .
AND FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE is how one be RECONCILED TO GOD , JUSTIFIED in the SIGHT OF GOD
made the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD . WHO is a liar
but HE who denies JESUS IS THE CHRIST , HE is anti christ .
HE calls GOD a liar for he recieves not the TESTIMONY GOD GAVE OF HIS SON .
we can do this all day my friend . THEY ALL POINTED TO THE DIRE NECSSSITY TO BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
and what else did john make mention of ........
THESE things i write unto you that you may KNOW you have eternal life , that you may BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
WE STICKING TO THE GOSPEL my friend . FOR IT IS THE POWER OF GOD unto those who do BELIEVE .
That if you will believe from the heart that GOD has rose him from the dead
and shall confess him , YE shall BE SAVED . there is no other gospel , no other love , no other hope
no other name or means by which a man can be saved . We wont be heeding those who preach a lie .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
You read Epi's testimony..
He told you... "i saw letters like light come into my eyes, and a verse by Peter confirmed i was born again".
So, is that a Testimony that a CHRISTIAN would give as their SALVATiON Experience?
Where is the....""""""God saved me.. I was a sinner, The Cross of Christ is my Salvation... I TRUSTED IN CHRIST.""""
See that? That is all missing from "Epi's" Salvation testimony..
His Salvation, has no CROSS, no SIN being forgiven, and no TRUST IN CHRIST
NOT ONE WORD.
Thats a fact.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
All scripture is Gods written word..
Gods Living Spirit cannot And is not contained...
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