Genesis 14 and Psalm 110

[Matthias]

I'm not sure of the accuracy of such statement.

See the birth narratives in Matthew 1 and Luke 1.

Some think that the New Testament teaches that God begot his Son before the universe was created.

Now we have the issue of preexistence. As I mentioned to you earlier, all trinitarians, binitarians and the majority of unitarians believe in literal preexistence.

I’m a Jewish monotheist. I believe in notional preexistence, not literal preexistence.

Some have thought that God begot his Son at the time of his baptism, or his resurrection. This is known as adoptionism.
Some think like you have said.

Everyone is right? No.

It doesn’t matter who is right?

The meaning of "begetting" a son remains a mystery.

Not at all.

The text says:

The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

That should remind you of what happened in the Genesis account of the creation of the heavens and the earth.

Yahweh was at it again.

So, according to the angel, Jesus was going to be called the Son of God because of a special action of God's power on Mary. What was the exact nature of such action? We don't know.

A human person was miraculously created by Yahweh in the womb of a virgin (Mary).

To “beget” a person is to bring a person into existence / being. We see this clearly expressed in passages of scripture where we read “X beget X”.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Jesus and the Apostles had a specific doctrine. They weren’t, as I read them, open to the doctrines of other faiths.

What was the specific doctrine that the people of Niniveh believed in, that was going to be the cause of their destruction?
What was the specific doctrine that Jonah ask them to believe to be saved?
What did the inhabitants of Niniveh know about YHWH and his laws and decrees? What knowledge about YHWV was requested from them to acquire?

We have no hint at all that Niniveh was going to be destroyed because of their adherence to a wrong doctrine.
We have no hint that God forgave them because they started to adhere to a specific true doctrine.

How and why God forgave their sins is explicitly stated:

So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying,

Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water. 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?

Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.

 

[Matthias]

What was the specific doctrine that the people of Niniveh believed in, that was going to be the cause of their destruction?
What was the specific doctrine that Jonah ask them to believe to be saved?
What did the inhabitants of Niniveh know about YHWH and his laws and decrees? What knowledge about YHWV was requested from them to acquire?

We have no hint at all that Niniveh was going to be destroyed because of their adherence to a wrong doctrine.
We have no hint that God forgave them because they started to adhere to a specific true doctrine.

How and why God forgave their sins is explicitly stated:

So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying,

Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water. 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?

Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.

Whatever their doctrine was, it wasn’t in alignment with the doctrine / teaching / instruction of Yahweh. They turned from not believing Yahweh to believing Yahweh; they repented of their former beliefs and behavior.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Everyone is right? No.

It doesn’t matter who is right?

Everyone is right? No.
It doesn't matter who is right? For most doctrines, it doesn't matter to attain the mercy, grace and salvation from God.
This is how I prove my argument:

Those who believe Jesus was God, must repent from their sins and live as Christ taught us to live.
Those who do not, must do the same.

Those who believe YHVH is God, must not let money, fame, or pleasures take priority over their devotion to God.
Those who believe Allah is God, must do the same.

Those who believe that the wicked will burn in hell for ever, must avoid sin.
Those who believe that the wicked will be annihilated, must avoid sin as well.

 

[Matthias]

Everyone is right? No.
It doesn't matter who is right? For most doctrines, it doesn't matter to attain the mercy, grace and salvation from God.
This is how I prove my argument:

Those who believe Jesus was God, must repent from their sins and live as Christ taught us to live.
Those who do not, must do the same.

Those who believe YHVH is God, must not let money, fame, or pleasures take priority over their devotion to God.
Those who believe Allah is God, must do the same.

Those who believe that the wicked will burn in hell for ever, must avoid sin.
Those who believe that the wicked will be annihilated, must avoid sin as well.

For “most“ doctrines it doesn’t matter?

I gather that you don’t think doctrine about God matters.

For which doctrines do you think it does matter?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Whatever their doctrine was, it wasn’t in alignment with the doctrine / teaching / instruction of Yahweh. They turned from not believing Yahweh to believing Yahweh; they repented of their former beliefs and behavior.

Did Ninevites become Jews?
No. There is no historical account that Ninevites converted massively to Judaism.
They started believing in a single God. Was that enough? What about the other doctrines? How much similarity to Judaism their beliefs should attain, in order to be forgiven by God? Should they start keeping the Sabbath?

Furthermore, I can't even be sure that they "started" believing in a single God, because the influence of Zoroastrianism was already in place in Mesopotamia. Let me bring the case of Cyrus at this point:
For Cyrus, the king of Persia, Ahura Mazda was the single God, and it was equivalent to YHWH or Marduk, the Supreme Deity of Babilonians. There is no hint in history that Cyrus converted to judaism. However, YHWH calls Cyrus "My Messiah" ("My annointed one"). How YWVH praises and considers a Zoroastrian "My Messiah"?

So, it is possible that by the time Jonah preached in Niniveh, their inhabitants did not have to switch to a totally new belief.
"Believe in God" may only mean "Pay heed to God's warning" and not "Adopt Judaism". That's why the text stresses that they "turned from the evil way".

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

For “most“ doctrines it doesn’t matter?

I gather that you don’t think doctrine about God matters.

For which doctrines do you think it does matter?

1. I have One Creator and Sustainer, which I call God.
2. God is good and loves me and my neighbor.
3. I am devoted to God and nothing is more important in my life than Him.
4. He expects me to be good to my neighbor.
5. I do wrong things (eg, I put other things above God and my neighbor) and can't stop doing wrong things by myself.
6. I need God to save me, to rescue me from this condition.
7. God is helping me, is saving me, so I feel now happier and more committed to God.

 

[Matthias]

Did Ninevites become Jews?
No. There is no historical account that Ninevites converted massively to Judaism.
They started believing in a single God. Was that enough? What about the other doctrines? How much similarity to Judaism their beliefs should attain, in order to be forgiven by God? Should they start keeping the Sabbath?

Furthermore, I can't even be sure that they "started" believing in a single God, because the influence of Zoroastrianism was already in place in Mesopotamia. Let me bring the case of Cyrus at this point:
For Cyrus, the king of Persia, Ahura Mazda was the single God, and it was equivalent to YHWH or Marduk, the Supreme Deity of Babilonians. There is no hint in history that Cyrus converted to judaism. However, YHWH calls Cyrus "My Messiah" ("My annointed one"). How YWVH praises and considers a Zoroastrian "My Messiah"?

So, it is possible that by the time Jonah preached in Niniveh, their inhabitants did not have to switch to a totally new belief.
"Believe in God" may only mean "Pay heed to God's warning" and not "Adopt Judaism". That's why the text stresses that they "turned from the evil way".

The New Testament has a somewhat similar situation which was resolved at the Council of Jerusalem - the issue was whether or not Gentiles who had come to faith in a Jew who is Yahweh’s promised human Messiah had to become Jews or not. (They were not required to become Jews.)

A human person, a Jewish man, is sitting at the right hand of Yahweh.

 

[Matthias]

1. I have One Creator and Sustainer, which I call God.
2. God is good and loves me and my neighbor.
3. I am devoted to God and nothing is more important in my life than Him.
4. He expects me to be good to my neighbor.
5. I do wrong things (eg, I put other things above God and my neighbor) and can't stop doing wrong things by myself.
6. I need God to save me, to rescue me from this condition.
7. God is helping me, is saving me, so I feel now happier and more committed to God.

What is the personal name of your God?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I gather that you don’t think doctrine about God matters.

Well, for the most part, it does not matter.
I have given you these arguments and would love to hear what you think of them:

Those who believe Jesus was God, must repent from their sins and live as Christ taught us to live.
Those who do not, must do the same.

Those who believe YHVH is God, must not let money, fame, or pleasures take priority over their devotion to God.
Those who believe Allah is God, must do the same.

Those who believe that the wicked will burn in hell for ever, must avoid sin.
Those who believe that the wicked will be annihilated, must avoid sin as well.

 

[Matthias]

Well, for the most part, it does not matter.
I have given you these arguments and would love to hear what you think of them:

Those who believe Jesus was God, must repent from their sins and live as Christ taught us to live.
Those who do not, must do the same.

Those who believe YHVH is God, must not let money, fame, or pleasures take priority over their devotion to God.
Those who believe Allah is God, must do the same.

Those who believe that the wicked will burn in hell for ever, must avoid sin.
Those who believe that the wicked will be annihilated, must avoid sin as well.

Everyone must repent of their sin in order to be saved -> including the sin of not believing Yahweh’s gospel of the kingdom, which Jesus of Nazareth and the apostles preached.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

What is the personal name of your God?

Strictly speaking, I don't think God has a personal Name, but revealed names.
Names that have had meaning for the people who have heard or pronounced them.
In my religious tradition, the Bahai Faith, God is said to have revealed 100 names. The 99 of the Islamic tradition, plus an additional one.
If you have few minutes and you're interested, here is a beautiful recitation of those 99 names

 

[Matthias]

Strictly speaking, I don't think God has a personal Name, but revealed names.

The God of the Bible has a personal name that is revealed in the Hebrew Bible.

Names that have had meaning for the people who have heard or pronounced them.
In my religious tradition, the Bahai Faith, God is said to have revealed 100 names. The 99 of the Islamic tradition, plus an additional one.
If you have few minutes and you're interested, here is a beautiful recitation of those 99 names

Thank you. I’ll watch it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Everyone must repent of their sin in order to be saved -> including the sin of not believing Yahweh’s gospel of the kingdom, which Jesus of Nazareth and the apostles preached.

How do you know that somebody has not believed in Yahweh's gospel of the Kingdom?
Let me suggest an answer: because they do not live as citizens of that Kingdom.
How does a person who is a citizen of that Kingdom lives? Jesus provides the answer.
If you live the life to be described below, then you have understood what the Kingdom is all about. This series of verses starts and ends with the explicit reference to the Kingdom.

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The God of the Bible has a personal name that is revealed in the Hebrew Bible.

As a matter of fact, Hebrews referred to God as El, Elohim (the plural form), or Yahweh. And in their daily lives, they did use other names with full devotion. You know them better than me.
I find no place in the Bible where God disapproves the use of El / Elohim, or states that El /Elohim is a different god.
I find no place in the Bible where God says that the phonetics of his Name is important to answer a prayer or forgive sins.
I find Jesus using an Aramaic, and not a Hebrew version of El (Eloi, of which Allah is a linguistic cousin).

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The God of the Bible has a personal name that is revealed in the Hebrew Bible.



Thank you. I’ll watch it.

My apologies, Matthias: I included a version with translation from Arabic to Spanish, not to English.
Here is one with English equivalents:

 

[Matthias]

Strictly speaking, I don't think God has a personal Name, but revealed names.
Names that have had meaning for the people who have heard or pronounced them.
In my religious tradition, the Bahai Faith, God is said to have revealed 100 names. The 99 of the Islamic tradition, plus an additional one.
If you have few minutes and you're interested, here is a beautiful recitation of those 99 names

What is the additional one?

 

[Matthias]

My apologies, Matthias: I included a version with translation from Arabic to Spanish, not to English.
Here is one with English equivalents:

That’s okay. I would rewatch the English translation but my Spanish was good enough for me to catch the drift. I’m sure others will appreciate the Engish translation. Thanks for providing it.

 

[Matthias]

How do you know that somebody has not believed in Yahweh's gospel of the Kingdom?

By what they say about it.

Let me suggest an answer: because they do not live as citizens of that Kingdom.
How does a person who is a citizen of that Kingdom lives? Jesus provides the answer.
If you live the life to be described below, then you have understood what the Kingdom is all about. This series of verses starts and ends with the explicit reference to the Kingdom.

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

“Heaven” is a circumlocution. The kingdom of God will be established on the earth (not in heaven) when Jesus returns (not before).

 

[Matthias]

@Pancho Frijoles what do you think about Paul’s comment in 2 Corinthians 11:4?