United Methodists Lose 1M Members in a Single Day, Council of Bishops 'Grieves' Mass Exodus(After vote to allow gay clergy & ss unions)

[Aunty Jane]

There is more to do with "upbringing" than meets the eye. If there is more than one child in the house, I'd bet they both see actions of parents differently. Then again, "upbringing" is also relationships with peers and adults outside of the house. Parents don't get to see much of that - and that isn't even mentioning the large numbers of single-parent households (which is compounded by the possibility of a dysfunctional single parent.

Happen to imagine the thoughts of a young person who is going through clinical depression and feelings of no worth?

A person who grows up feeling unloved by a parent who does not display affection can develop traits leading to acceptance of affection from same-sex persons. That is typically how it happens.

I have no issue with any of that…we humans are complex creatures when it comes to our behavior. We are all products of nature + nurture. But having this problem in my extended family, (who are not Christians) I saw first hand how this played out just in that family, especially the mother of the person who wanted to become female though born genetically male. The impact on his children (he is divorced from his wife) and the reaction of others to his decision to become a woman with the aid of surgery and hormone treatment was devastating to say the least.
The role of hormones cannot be understated here, especially when there has been an explosion of these cases in recent times.
My research uncovered a probable cause in the environment, produced by chemical additives in food and other environmental things affecting the body, that are called endocrine disrupters. These have a huge bearing on hormonal function in the body.
Whether we realize it or not, we are subject to these chemicals every day of our lives…..and people have different responses to them as we saw in the vaxx campaign, world wide. It was promoted as “safe and effective” yet some people died, others were disabled for life, and others were made immune compromised. No long term studies were ever done and sadly the guinea pigs who trusted corrupt men (who benefitted financially), will be the test cases in the future. Excess deaths are the highest on record and they are attributable to only one global cause.
Who can you trust? (Pun intended)

Homosexuality is a learned problem and is not genetic. It is difficult to assign the original fault, and it is also difficult to cure.

This does not explain why very young children show signs of gender confusion before they even know what gender is. There is more to the genetic component than meets the eye. What is the effect on the unborn if the mother is subjected to these disrupted hormones? How do we explain intersex?

In the world we live in today, homosexuality is celebrated as if it a great act of courage. That is simply going to lead to more of them.

We have become a culture that does not assign guilt. We preach 'acceptance" of nearly everything, so what would motivate a person living a homosexual lifestyle to change?

Agree here…..mankind have found creative ways to offend their Creator, no more so than when pseudo science promoted evolution and basically eliminated the Creator from existence, giving them seemingly legitimate excuses to do whatever their sinful flesh dictates. There is no one to account to.
Couple that with the YEC notion that all in existence is merely 6000 years old and it starts to look really silly….who is the creator of all this confusion? Who else but a clever deceiver?

 

[Aunty Jane]

You sound like Arthur.

Arthur who???

 

[BlessedPeace]

Arthur who???

Arthur81.

 

[BlessedPeace]

C’mon Wrangler….you have better comprehension skills than that surely…?
What part of…
“This is a bit of a knee jerk response, Wrangler.....In no way was I condoning the actions, but trying to understand the reasons for them......
The reasons do not justify the action, and that was my point. People can change their behavior even if their sexual orientation remains the same. That is not really fixable in this world.”…..did you fail to understand?

God hates the sin, not the sinner….

Was I saying that homosexual acts were not a sin? Or was I merely stating that sexual orientation was mainly responsible (for those who are gender dysphoric), wanting to practice this sin?
Sexual deviation is a sin…period! No matter if it is homosexual or heterosexual…both merited the death penalty under God’s law, so we know how God feels about it….

Where did God say , if a man lay with a woman it is abomination?

Book,chapter,verse,please.

 

[Wrangler]

What part of…
“In no way was I condoning the actions, but trying to understand the reasons ...”…..did you fail to understand?

It is uncharacteristic for you to rely on snarkiness. I'm not buying it for one second! After 50 years of Bible study, you do not know the reasons for sin?

And you still fail to answer my question.

What if it came to light that rapists and pedophiles and murderers had a hormonal imbalance; should victim laws all be repealed?

Morality. Right. Wrong. Yes. No. After 50 years of Bible study, you're avoiding the question because suddenly this particular form of sin is a mystery to you along with all the others?

 

[Wrangler]

My church used to be Methodist and broke away for this reason several years ago.

 

[Triumph1300]

God hates the sin, not the sinner….

I hear that a lot in church lately.
Some see it as a license to sin.

Dangerous stuff if you ask me.

They forget to include "repentance".

Hell is full of people misled by "God hates the sin, not the sinner."
They ended in hell because nobody told them to turn from their wicked ways.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Arthur81.

No idea who that is......

Where did God say , if a man lay with a woman it is abomination?

Book,chapter,verse,please.

Hang on.....did I not say that sexual relations are only for those in a scriptural marriage? That rules out having sex if you are not married to the person you are having sex with. In God’s eyes it all comes under one umbrella as to the seriousness....as Paul indicated......(1 Cor 6:9-10) Homosexuals are not in a separate category.

Matt 19:3-9...
“And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” (ESV)

Sexual immorality of ANY description is a violation of God’s law......period. Even divorce that is not based on the only sin that ends a marriage, carries the same penalty......that is a big “ouch” for those who did not consider this when wanting to end their marriage to marry someone else. It might comply with the laws of man...but not with the laws of God.

 

[JohnDB]

This is yet another instance of leadership being completely disconnected from those they minister to.

Servant leadership is obviously NOT what Methodist Leadership is about. That's why the people are leaving.

If the sin that the leadership was so uninterested in was stealing....using all the same excuses that they are using now....

They were just born to steal
They are just wanting go steal but not actually stealing....
It's OK if they just steal a little but don't feel like a thief.
They are Christian Thiefs....they steal for God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It is uncharacteristic for you to rely on snarkiness.

But apparently not for yourself...aptly named......”Wrangler”...why do you turn into an argumentative monster when someone disagrees with you? It’s like you are two different people and it’s frustrating trying to figure out who you will be today....or tomorrow....you have a hair trigger mate....learn a little self control.

I'm not buying it for one second! After 50 years of Bible study, you do not know the reasons for sin?

And you still fail to answer my question.

I know full well the reasons for sin....what I was detailing was the reasons for this particular one that is taking over the world at this particular juncture. There has to be a reason why these people are coming out of the woodwork!

What question did I fail to answer?

Morality. Right. Wrong. Yes. No. After 50 years of Bible study, you're avoiding the question because suddenly this particular form of sin is a mystery to you along with all the others?

Explaining the reasons for choosing a life of immorality is not excusing it. The reasons are well known to God but obviously not well known to people who have no compassion for those born “different”.
The sin in our flesh was not put there by us......it’s not a choice for us to be sinless......we do so every day in a variety of ways.....but that doesn’t make us a lost cause. We have those in our ranks who were former fornicators and adulterers, drunkards, thieves....even murderers......but God saw the good in them and understood what made them do what they did......so he “drew” them to his truth, (John 6:44)...they repented and he welcomed them because of their repentance. He reads hearts, not just actions.

Are you the moral police? Can you see into the depths of these souls and pass judgment on them? That is not what Jesus did...he taught the sinners that there was a better life...one that made them feel clean despite their former grubby course. Forgiveness is something God is good at.....we are not their judge. Thank God for that!!!

 

[BlessedPeace]

No idea who that is......

You must have him on ignore. He's on the forum.

Hang on.....did I not say that sexual relations are only for those in a scriptural marriage? That rules out having sex if you are not married to the person you are having sex with. In God’s eyes it all comes under one umbrella as to the seriousness....as Paul indicated......(1 Cor 6:9-10) Homosexuals are not in a separate category.

Matt 19:3-9...
“And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” (ESV)

Sexual immorality of ANY description is a violation of God’s law......period. Even divorce that is not based on the only sin that ends a marriage, carries the same penalty......that is a big “ouch” for those who did not consider this when wanting to end their marriage to marry someone else. It might comply with the laws of man...but not with the laws of God.

So,you don't have a scripture that sustains what you claimed earlier regarding heterosexuals in comparison to the sins of Sodomites.

OK. Thanks.

 

[BlessedPeace]

I hear that a lot in church lately.
Some see it as a license to sin.

Dangerous stuff if you ask me.

They forget to include "repentance".

Hell is full of people misled by "God hates the sin, not the sinner."
They ended in hell because nobody told them to turn from their wicked ways.

Oh,come the heck on! It isn't love that sends unrepentant sinners to suffer for a short lifetime of mistakes, Hell for eternity.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You must have him on ignore. He's on the forum.

Nope, don’t recall him....

So,you don't have a scripture that sustains what you claimed earlier regarding heterosexuals in comparison to the sins of Sodomites.

OK. Thanks.

Wait a minute...what? If Paul gave us a list of the sins that bar entry into the Kingdom, and all merit the same judgment, then there is your answer. All immorality is sin. Sexual sin is especially serious as was seen in God‘s law to Israel....it gives quite a detailed account of what is not acceptable behavior because it involves the very transmission of life. God hates those sins, but he does not condemn any guilty ones who repent and turn turn their lives around.....is there a problem with that? Is God more forgiving than we are?

 

[Spyder]

So, are there people here who think homosexuality is acceptable in God's eyes? I think sexual immorality covers a few bases.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

Romans 1:26-27 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

1 Timothy 1:10 The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

 

[Wrangler]

God hates those sins, but he does not condemn any guilty ones who repent

And it’s your impression the proud LGBTQ+ community is repentant?

 

[Aunty Jane]

And it’s your impression the proud LGBTQ+ community is repentant?

Seriously mate what is your problem?…..when have I suggested anything like that….?
Read my responses again and this time take your distorted lenses off. You are reading into my replies things I have never said.

 

[Wrangler]

Seriously mate what is your problem?…..when have I suggested anything like that….?
Read my responses again and this time take your distorted lenses off. You are reading into my replies things I have never said.

Every post you’ve made in this thread is suggestive. I am detecting your distortion revealed by my questions - which you refuse to answer.

For me, I start with what is right or wrong. You are obviously stepping over that point, ignoring that homosexuality is a sin AND the alphabet community are unrepentant.

The reasons why are quite irrelevant. Now, if you want to start a thread on the reasons why, go for it. I’ll be sure to stay clear of that thread.

 

[Jericho]

This does not explain why very young children show signs of gender confusion before they even know what gender is. There is more to the genetic component than meets the eye. What is the effect on the unborn if the mother is subjected to these disrupted hormones? How do we explain intersex?

I don't believe there is a genic component per se. If it did, then how would we explain biological identical twins where one is homosexual and the other is not? I think a large degree of it is due to environmental factors. A lot of them have a history of sexual abuse as children, but not all. Sometimes, the environmental triggers are not so obvious. Some of it is learned behavior. That's one of the reasons why we are seeing more of it today. I can't discount that hormonal imbalances could contribute to it in some instances; I don't know. I also don't discount that there may be a spiritual component. If there is a spirit of lust, can't there be a spirit of homosexuality? Whatever the case may be, it's not an excuse for their sin. Sin is a choice, first and foremost. And the way I see it, we all have a sin nature and are more prone to some sins than others. For some, they may be prone to drugs and alcohol; for others, it may be pornography and promiscuity; and so on. It just happens that they may be more prone to the sin of homosexuality, for whatever reasons.

 

[Wrangler]

If there is a spirit of lust, can't there be a spirit of homosexuality?

Homosexuality is a subset of lust.

 

[BlessedPeace]

So, are there people here who think homosexuality is acceptable in God's eyes? I think sexual immorality covers a few bases.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

Romans 1:26-27 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

1 Timothy 1:10 The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

In reading this topic here and in other threads,I'd say there are at least 2(?) who think homosexuality is acceptable to God in certain cases.

One tried to make the point that it was acceptable in a homosexual relationship. Not on a casual random partner way.

Another tries to offset the homosexual condemnation by parsing Heterosexuals into the equation so to claim God condemns both sexual behaviors under certain conditions in equal measure.

That failed,of course.

Giving excuses for egregious sin to continue is quite something to witness when the effort is made by those who identify as Christian,while identifying also as defenders of Sodomites.