What kind of person is looking to strike nerves? And then makes false claims to have done so? Find a better past-time...something that doesn't get you into eternal difficulties. Allume!
Deconstruction Part 2: Into Apostolicity
- Thread starter Episkopos
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Searching for truth, since yours are spaced out and far fetched, foreign to sound doctrines.
You don't realize that you are of the generation that is unable to endure sound doctrine. Sound doctrine sounds very strange to you. The religious culture is so pervasive and persuasive that anything else....no matter how apostolic or deep is seen as simply strange and written off immediately. I don't know if you have enough time left to work that all out. In any case, I warn people. :) You don't need to thank me. ;)
Last edited:
I don't know about that, so far you have been rebutted successfully.
2 Corinthians 10:5 (KJV):
" casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ."
2Co 10:5 We tear down καθαιροῦντες arguments, λογισμοὺς and καὶ every πᾶν presumption ὕψωμα set up ἐπαιρόμενον against κατὰ the τῆς knowledge γνώσεως - τοῦ of God; Θεοῦ, and καὶ we take captive αἰχμαλωτίζοντες every πᾶν thought νόημα to εἰς - τὴν make it obedient ὑπακοὴν - τοῦ to Christ. Χριστοῦ,
2Co 10:6 And καὶ we ἐν will be ἔχοντες ready ἑτοίμῳ to punish ἐκδικῆσαι every [act of] πᾶσαν disobedience, παρακοήν, as soon as ὅταν your ὑμῶν - ἡ obedience ὑπακοή. is complete. πληρωθῇ
2Co 10:7 You are looking βλέπετε. - Τὰ at κατὰ outward appearances. πρόσωπον If εἴ anyone τις is confident πέποιθεν that he ἑαυτῷ belongs to εἶναι, Christ, Χριστοῦ - τοῦτο he should remind λογιζέσθω . . . πάλιν vvv ἐφ’ himself ἑαυτοῦ, that ὅτι we ἡμεῖς. [belong to Christ] οὕτως just καὶ as much as καθὼς he αὐτὸς [does]. Χριστοῦ,
1) "And every high thing," (kai pan hupsoma) "and every high (exalted) thing," such as conceit, egotism, pride of the flesh, Pro_11:2; Pro_13:10; Pro_16:18; Pro_29:23. These passions are citadels of Satan, let them be torn down.
2) "That exalteth itself against the knowledge of God," (epairomenon kata tes gnesos tou theou) "That rises up against (or opposes) the knowledge of God," even as Lucifer was lifted up, "puffed up," in conceit and pride against God, Isa_28:2; Isa_28:5; Isa_28:17; Isa_14:13-14; Rom_1:21-22; 1Co_1:18-19; 1Co_1:21; 1Co_1:25-29.
3) "And bringing into captivity," (kai eichmalotizontes)" and continually take captive or captivate," these fleshly passions, mortify or put them to death, under control, so that they will be fruitless, giving place to spiritual fruit, Col_3:1-5.
4) "Every thought to the obedience of Christ," (pan noema eis ten hupakoen tou christou) "Every design to the obedience of Christ," or thru God's power we are able to bring every thought, design, or intent to obedient service to Christ, Heb_12:1-3; 1Pe_3:15; Isa_55:11-12; Php_2:5-7; Heb_4:12. Let every intent, purpose, and motive be wholly subject to the word and will of Christ, Rom_12:1-2.
Breakdown and Explanation:
Context:
Paul is addressing the Corinthians about spiritual warfare and the nature of his authority as an apostle. He contrasts his ministry with those who question his authority, asserting that his power is divinely given and not of the flesh.
Key Phrases:
"Casting down imaginations": The Greek word here is "logismos" (λογισμὸς), which can mean reasoning or arguments.
"Every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God": This phrase is about things that are elevated or set up against the understanding of God, often referring to pride, ideologies, or false teachings.
"Bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ": The Greek phrase "ἀνάγων πάντα νοῦν εἰς τὴν ὑπακοὴν τοῦ Χριστοῦ" literally means "taking every thought captive to obey Christ." This highlights the discipline of aligning one's thoughts and actions with the teachings and example of Christ.
Greek Text Analysis:
2 Corinthians 10:5 (Greek, UBS4):
καθαιρεῖν λογισμούς καὶ πᾶν ὕψωμα ἀντιτιθέμενον τῇ γνώσει τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ αἰχμαλωτίζοντα πᾶν νοῦν εἰς τὴν ὑπακοὴν τοῦ Χριστοῦ.
Morphology Breakdown:
"καθαιρεῖν" (kathairein): Infinitive of "to tear down" or "to demolish."
"λογισμούς" (logismous): Accusative plural of "logismos," meaning "reasonings" or "arguments."
"πᾶν ὕψωμα" (pan hypsōma): "Every high thing."
"ἀντιτιθέμενον" (antithemenon): Present middle participle of "antitithēmi," meaning "opposing" or "set against."
"τῇ γνώσει τοῦ Θεοῦ" (tē gnōsei tou Theou): "To the knowledge of God."
"αἰχμαλωτίζοντα" (aichmalotizonta): Present active participle of "aichmalotizō," meaning "bringing into captivity."
"πᾶν νοῦν" (pan noun): "Every thought."
"εἰς τὴν ὑπακοὴν τοῦ Χριστοῦ" (eis tēn hypakoēn tou Christou): "To the obedience of Christ."
This verse calls believers to take every thought and idea captive, ensuring they are aligned with the obedience and teachings of Christ, thereby demolishing anything that exalts itself against God's knowledge.
arguments -- Thoughts, ideas, speculations, reasonings, philosophies, and false religions are the ideological forts in which men barricade themselves against God and the gospel (cf. 1Co_3:20). - MSB
“Arguments” (NIV, NRSV, TEV) or “speculations” (NASB) ["pretension", "imaginaions" ASV] is a technical term for rhetorical or philosophical reasonings; the prisoners of war in this extended metaphor are human thoughts. Cf. Pro_21:22. - EBCNT
raised [that exalts itself] against the knowledge of God, -- True knowledge makes men humble. Where there is exaltation of self, there knowledge of God is wanting [BENGEL].
Everything which exalts itself is opposed to the knowledge of God, that which makes people think they do not need the provisions of the gospel and are not willing to submit to God's plan for them.
bringing into captivity -- Free from dominion of the body. The mind under the influence of the gospel is to control the body.
every thought -- (παν A-ASN, G3956, every; νοημα N-ASN, G3540, thought)
The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised, Harold K. Moulton, ed., lists several connotations (p. 280).
1. the mind, the understanding, intellect - 2Co_3:14; 2Co_4:4
2. the heart, soul, affections, feelings, disposition - 2Co_11:3
3. a conception of the mind, thought, purpose, device - 2Co_2:11; 2Co_10:5
The word “thought” (novhma, noçma) is only used six times in the NT, once in Php_4:7, and four other times in 2 Corinthians (2Co_2:11; 2Co_3:14; 2Co_4:4; 2Co_11:3). In every other case, it is translated “mind” by the NIV, except when referring to the “schemes” of Satan in 2Co_2:11. Outside the NT, it can mean “design” or “purpose.” So, we should not think that Paul means that Christ will overcome every random thought we have. Rather, he has in mind thoughts directed toward a purpose, a philosophy. Also, ultimately it is not just philosophies that become captive to Christ but the people attached to them. “Obedient to Christ” means to accept the gospel of Christ as true and to honor Christ as Lord. - CPNTNIV
1) Even our "thoughts" should be only of being obedient to the will of God.
2) "Thoughts" here are not our own, but of others, and used as referring to their "causes, philosophies, religions, conduct, etc." as being won over to that in harmony with with will of God. (2Co_2:11, used of the schemes, devices, "ways", strategy, plans of Satan.) - WG
Every power of thought in the pagan world; all the systems of philosophy and all forms of opinion among people; all the purposes of the soul; all the powers of reason, memory, judgment, fancy in an individual, were all to come under the laws of Christ, All doctrines were to be in accordance with his will; - BN,
...the weapons of our warfare are able to cast all that to the ground, and bring every thought (‘every conception’[1]), like a captive, into absolute obedience to what Christ demands in thought and action; - Schaff
bring into captivity -- Another military metaphor.
captive -- The verb is a compound of "spear" and "to capture in battle." All things "false" is captured by the "truth."
And this INCLUDES me @Episkopos --
--and the context of this verse--
2 Corinthians 10:3-6 (KJV):
"3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled."
Contextual Analysis:
Spiritual Warfare: Paul begins by contrasting the spiritual nature of the battle Christians face with physical warfare. He emphasizes that their weapons are not human, but divine and powerful for tearing down strongholds.
Casting Down: Paul instructs believers to demolish arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God. This includes any false teachings, ideologies, or attitudes that oppose the truth revealed in Christ.
Bringing into Captivity: He emphasizes the importance of bringing every thought into obedience to Christ. This involves aligning one's thinking and mindset with the teachings and values of Jesus Christ, rather than conforming to worldly or sinful patterns.
Spiritual Preparedness: Paul concludes by stating that they are prepared to punish disobedience once complete obedience to Christ is established among believers. This highlights the seriousness with which Paul views the battle for spiritual purity and obedience within the church.
Using God-given spiritual weapons to combat false teachings and sinful strongholds.
Ensuring that their thoughts and beliefs are in alignment with the truth of Christ.
Being vigilant against disobedience within the church community, with a goal of promoting holiness and obedience to Christ.
This passage underscores the importance of spiritual vigilance, obedience to Christ, and the authority of God's Word in the life of every believer and in the community of faith.
J.
Even if you posted a thousand commentaries...you don't come close to refuting even one syllable of what I say.
Behold
Well-Known Member
No need for commentaries-you don't stand up under scrutiny, not from me brother.
Is the light of God imputed to us? No, it is the light of God. We are to walk IN it. Is the kingdom of God imputed to us? No, It is HIS kingdom. We are to walk in it. Is the righteousness of God imputed to us? No, It is His righteousness...we are to walk in it.
Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and walk in the light.
Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and walk in the light.
Certainly agree we are to seek to walk in these things. And yes, its all His, not of our own that no man may boast. What do we have that we didn't RECEIVE (from Him)? But we need to comprehend all that it means to have Christ in us...stupendous and priceless gift...unspeakable...what manner of love has the Father bestowed on us!......the hope of glory! (And he who has this hope in him purifies himself just as He is pure.) Jesus said His kingdom is within us. If He is in us then all these things that are of Him are in us as well. "All that I have is yours."....it's in us even if we aren't apprehending and walking in it to "possess" it entirely yet. God had already given the Promised Land into the hands of the Israelites (the promises are yes and amen), but they still had battles to fight and enemies to overcome in order to possess it. But they needed faith to believe that promise - to believe that it was already yes and amen. Some call it battling from a place of victory.
This is what it means to be saved - saved from wrath, and saved from our sins (forgiven).....He imputing His righteousness to us means He is overlooking our sins/iniquity (because of the cross - Jesus paid our debt).....it doesnt' mean we dont' actually have sin/iniquity in our old man of the flesh in reality, but that God is "forgetting" it in forgiving and graciously overlooking it......as long as we are endeavouring in sincerity to be obedient and aren't abusing this grace.
The disciples were called disciples in their immaturity.....disciple and discipline are related words......they were learning and being "disciplined" by Jesus to help them learn, as they followed Him around quite literally in their case, leaving their former lives and home comforts behind. It occurs to me that this is like us in the wilderness, taking up our crosses and following/obeying Him and learning through all our trials and chastisements that work to crucify our flesh and old man carnal nature.......that we may partake of His holiness.
Last edited:
VictoryinJesus
Well-Known Member
- Jan 26, 2017
- 10,576
- 8,426
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
…does He have a bad memory? Does He have a good throwing arm? To remember our sins no more? …instead personally I think it connects to how completely many will say did we not do this and that …and He says “I never knew you, you who works iniquity.” That worker of iniquity, the one He has separated us from…is it a bad thing to hear “you worker of iniquity, I never knew you.”
If we only hear it concerning the destruction of others, we miss (I think) the edification of promise in “I never knew that old man”: he who works iniquity.
Let’s not forget we all have had our time in “he who works iniquity” to me it’s fully completely in the Words that God says “I never knew you who works iniquity.” Another I think of is Old Testament when one as an iron is pulled from the fire and the angel of Lord says “remove his filthy garments. I will supply his clothing.” Satan is there standing at the right hand to avoid …sneaking devil. ‘if your right hand offends you, cut it off’?
But here is a question. If God announces to workers of iniquity that He never knew them, even that old man we are told to put off, cast off…what about He became as we are, tempted and tried yet without sin? Did He know sin?
Last edited:
I was making a humorous point about needing ears to hear the spiritual language of God's word....sorry, couldn't resist my little joke there. ;) You are talking to someone who takes the warnings and admonishments of scripture seriously. We certainly shouldn't be working iniquity or using and abusing God's gifts as WE please, for OUR gain and glory, but need to do the FATHER's will and for HIS glory, in our personal life and walk, as well as in how anyone is serving the Lord in ministry work. Casting out devils and doing miracles isn't going to fly if someone is also committing adultery or using ministry donations to spend on luxuries for themselves, etc.
Last edited:
VictoryinJesus
Well-Known Member
- Jan 26, 2017
- 10,576
- 8,426
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
I wasn’t trying to make a statement that you don’t take it serious. Mostly it was to share with you how that passage I’ve heard countless times, as the only voice that could be heard in it is one of condemnation …I was trying to share with you along with your post something to consider on, how completely He puts those sins away by the body of Christ. Where He says “I never knew you, you who works iniquity.” To me that is wow. It makes me think of Galatians 4:9 But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn you again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto you desire again to be in bondage?
ok sorry I missed what you were trying to say. Myself, I am not seeing that Jesus was making a distinction between old man and new man in those passages , where He said to those, "away from me I never knew you". Some from among "His people", ie, believers, are going to be rejected as reprobate silver (Jer 6:30)....much like how bad fish will be thrown back. Slag silver that refuses to be separated from its impurities but gets thrown on the slag heap. It is possible to fall into condemnation, since we are given fair warning and exhortations about it.
But the cutting off one's right hand if it offends....yes, think I can see how that might be as you are saying....separated, cut off, from our old man with his iniquity and how completely Jesus put away our sins. That is both a done deal but also the journey we are on, as I see it. Our part is to cut it/him off, or be in process of doing that....even though it is already a done deal and thus imputed to us in the meantime - as you said, how completely, amen.
Had a little mini-vision once, a long time ago, of the Lord combing through my being with a super-fine-toothed comb, separating out my iniquities and impurities from every pore of my being without doing harm to my being. It reassured me on the one hand but also made me realize there must be things in my life and heart that need this work of removing them.
VictoryinJesus
Well-Known Member
- Jan 26, 2017
- 10,576
- 8,426
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
I can understand as you said not seeing “I never knew you, you worker of iniquity” linked to the separation of the old man from the New. I get it sounds like a far stretch and I’m not trying to say it’s right. For me it’s the key words “you who work iniquity” as the one being spoken to. …”Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?”
For me instead of that only being to all others… it stands out as the “you who works iniquity” was in me (an enemy of God) that brought forth sin unto death. That part contrary and removed in Christ.
When I think “you who work iniquity” “depart” being put off by the circumcision made without hands, the putting off of sins …He took it out of the way and nailed it to the cross making an open show of triumphing over “he who works iniquity”. Colossians 2:11-15 In whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body(he who works iniquity) of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead. [13] And you, being dead in your sins (he who works iniquity; sinners be heavy and mourn, submit yourselves to God and the devil will flee) the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way(he who works iniquity), nailing it to his cross; [15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them (workers of iniquity) in it.
Just an opinion. We seem to be saying the same thing. I mean we as in what churches teach that He overcomes he who works iniquity. What we usually fail to see is all have had their conversation in “he who works iniquity.” …. When I was bumping along doing my thing maybe the first thing I heard was …”you who work iniquity.” I gasp. “What? me Lord? But I said the prayer asking you to come into my heart.” But I could see by “you reap what you sow”…I’d been sowing some iniquity…reaping a full blown harvest for my eyes to acknowledge “God, help!!”. you never heard “ you, who works iniquity”? In the beginning??
Last edited:
I've been rebuked and corrected by the Lord three or four times in my Christian walk, but just not in those particular words.
If we are working iniquity then we are working iniquity (and of course He might speak in different words to different people). Yes sin and error proceeds from our old man and flesh..."no longer I who sin but sin living in me"....BUT we are nevertheless responsible for it and the only way to make progress and set things right is to be accountable to the Lord for whatever our "old man" does. "No longer I who sin....."....I believe is a manner of speaking which speaks to the Lord's graciousness/grace and longsuffering of us.......it's not for US to put the "blame" on our old man or the devil and hide behind that, but it is rather the LORD being gracious in how He is choosing to see us. It is still "we" or "I" who needs to repent and cooperate with the Lord in correcting our sin/error..... not going to hold my breath and wait for my "old man" to do it, lol. :) If WE confess our sins He will be faithful to forgive and cleanse. (Not saying you think otherwise sister, just trying to make it clear how I think of it, which is not in a way that gives us license to dodge our own responsibility.)
I think I understand how you are seeing those passages.....but I'm not sure if it agrees with Jesus saying "Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord....." Will it just be old carnal natures saying that on judgment day, or how do you see that? Is Jesus just talking to the carnal nature, or is He talking to and about the whole person in general?
i know there are some schools of thought out there that don't allow for condemnation at all. Jesus Himself in the form of a man did not come to condemn but to save. But there is a day of reckoning coming when this time of longsuffering comes to an end, a time when He said His words that He spoke and taught will be condemning some folks..... I don't see a way around it.
VictoryinJesus
Well-Known Member
- Jan 26, 2017
- 10,576
- 8,426
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Good question. “how do you see that?” Also, How do you see fruit? In you’ll know them by their fruit? also…there has to be a way of seeing other than with our physical eyes…otherwise why does he say we judge that which is outward and can be seen. But God looks on the heart. Maybe on judgement day it’s the heart? How is the heart seen? All questions…so many questions.
I don’t know. Except maybe if the eye be dark, then the whole body is full of darkness?
Circled back to this above. Considering “could it be old carnal natures saying that on judgment day”? Maybe in the sense that the boast is in the flesh and not the Spirit of God. Reminds me of the queen in The book of Revelation. Who says she is no widow and sits a queen. She glories herself. Is she a literal queen …or a carnal nature that rejects : Romans 7:2-4 For the woman which has an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he lives; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. [3] So then if, while her husband lives, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. [4] Wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Like the Queen who glorifies herself, What nature then says …Lord, lord did we not do all these things? Second question: what nature would He tell …depart from Me, I never knew you? If not the carnal nature?
What's your take on Joyce Meyer, Victoria Osteen, Paula White, Kathryn Krick, CNN, Voddie Baucham, John MacArthur, Justin Peters, and John Henry?
You think women like Joyce is spirit filled, anointed by God to deceive millions of people?
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Psalm 139
King James Version
139 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting
I was asking how you see that scripture, actually. Yes, we will know them by their fruit.....which can and needs to be discerned. so not looking at the fruit with natural eyes.
In the passage we are talking about they were boasting in their "works" that they were asserting had been "for God" but were they really when Jesus said they hadn't been doing God's will? They might have started out well enough genuinely knowing Christ since they had spiritual gifts, but then went astray as so often happens.....deceived by the lure of fame and fortune and/or just plain false doctrines. "Away from me I never knew you".....I believe speaks to God's foreknowledge, how we are elect according to His foreknowledge and He also foreknows what we will do with what He has given us.....and I never knew you in this case means it will be "as if" He never knew them...meaning they must have become cut off from Him at some point (even though gifts and callings are given w/out repentance).
Being known and foreknown by God is what it means to be saved, so "away from me I never knew you" is not something anyone wants to hear on judgment day. In being saved we are separated and freed from the clutches and dominion of the old man and flesh (if we sin in an inadvertent way against our own wishes and we are therefore penitent it is counted as being "no longer I who sin but sin living in me"- separated)......so what happens to those who fall back under the old man's dominion without ever repenting? Not a good end apparently and that is why Jesus was warning. I dont' think it will sit well with the Lord if we tell people, don't worry about anything, it's only your "old man" that will be judged.....that takes all the "salt" out of the warning...and clearly there is something to be worried about or there would be no reason to warn. And Jesus also warns elsewhere about the church losing its saltiness. The gospel message is not a toothless tiger. It's not for no reason that the Lord is to be feared.
Men (and women) of renown..? I believe that passage we are talking about probably speaks to such as they, sadly (though some names there I don't know anything about). Though one doesn't have to be well-known to be in the same kind of error.
Similar threads
