Deconstruction Part 2: Into Apostolicity

[Johann]

You say this because all you have is your opinions that are formed through indoctrination from men...and a faulty reading of the bible that is influenced by that indoctrination.

The bible should ONLY be taught by those who have experienced what's written on its pages. God is against the false prophets who speak without having seen anything. Likewise bible teachers need more than just bibles...but rather know God and be known of God and equipped to teach others the ways of God.

I use the bible as much or more than most...and yet very few will care to look deeper than their previous conditioning. We are each responsible for receiving what we receive as truth.

You say this because all you have is your opinions that are formed through indoctrination from men...and a faulty reading of the bible that is influenced by that indoctrination.

The bible should ONLY be taught by those who have experienced what's written on its pages. God is against the false prophets who speak without having seen anything. Likewise bible teachers need more than just bibles...but rather know God and be known of God and equipped to teach others the ways of God.

I use the bible as much or more than most...and yet very few will care to look deeper than their previous conditioning. We are each responsible for receiving what we receive as truth.

What is the qualifications of being a episkopos according to Scripture?
Must I "see" before I can speak and teach-like having a "Paul experience?" You say you are known by God and I make that same claim with a style of life yielded to Christ Jesus and my eyes in Scriptures-a lamp and light unto my feet and path.

Text: Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV)
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
Morphological Analysis


1) "In whom ye also trusted" (en ho kai humeis) "In whom (Christ) ye also (trusted)," or believed with all their hearts ' as the Eunuch did, Act_8:37; and as the Philippian jailer did, Act_16:31-34; Rom_4:11.

2) "After that ye heard the word of truth" (akousantes ton logon tes aletheias) "Hearing (while hearing) the word' of the truth." This is what Cornelius and his household did, Act_10:43-46; Act_11:21. Believing or trusting in the Lord is evidenced in one by a voluntary turning to worship and service toward Him, Act_9:5-9.

3) "The gospel of your salvation" (to evangelion tes soterias humon) "The gospel of your salvation or deliverance." The salvation of the Ephesians came through Paul's preaching and their acceptance of "repentance toward God," and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ, Act_20:20-21; Act_20:26-31.

4) "In whom also after that ye believed" (en ho kai pisteusantes) "in whom also (when) ye believed," or having fully believed. The Holy Spirit quickens every believer to life eternal and seals the stamp of divine ownership upon him to eternal life, Joh_6:63; Joh_10:27-29; 1Jn_5:13.

5) "Ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" (esphragisthete to pneumati tes epangelias to hagio) "With the Holy Spirit of promise." This seal is heaven's stamp of eternal ownership of the sealed property, 2Ti_2:19; Eph_4:30. If salvation could ever be lost, it would have to be after the resurrection of the body of the believer; for until the redemption of the body (the purchased (paid for) possession of every believer), one is sealed. See also Rom_8:23.



Eph 1:13 And καὶ in ἐν [Him] ᾧ you ὑμεῖς, were sealed ἐσφραγίσθητε with τῷ the τῷ - τῆς promised ἐπαγγελίας Holy Ἁγίῳ, Spirit Πνεύματι - ἐν - , ᾧ having heard ἀκούσαντες and καὶ believed πιστεύσαντες the τὸν word λόγον - τῆς of truth, ἀληθείας, the τὸ gospel εὐαγγέλιον of τῆς your ὑμῶν, salvation. σωτηρίας
Eph 1:14 [The Spirit] ὅ* is ἐστιν [the] pledge ἀρραβὼν of our ἡμῶν, - τῆς inheritance κληρονομίας until εἰς [the] redemption ἀπολύτρωσιν of those [who are] τῆς [God’s] possession, περιποιήσεως, to εἰς [the] praise ἔπαινον of τῆς His αὐτοῦ. glory. δόξης


"In whom": This refers to Christ, indicating the sphere of trust and belief.

"ye also trusted": The verb "trusted" (ἐλπίσαντες, elpisantes in Greek) is an aorist participle, indicating a completed action of having trusted in Christ.

"after that ye heard": The verb "heard" (ἀκούσαντες, akousantes in Greek) is an aorist participle, signifying the action of hearing the gospel.

"the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation": Appositional phrases explaining what was heard.

"in whom also after that ye believed": The verb "believed" (πιστεύσαντες, pisteusantes in Greek) is another aorist participle, indicating the act of faith following hearing.

"ye were sealed": The verb "sealed" (ἐσφραγίσθητε, esphragisthete in Greek) is an aorist passive indicative, highlighting the action done to believers by an external agent, the Holy Spirit.

"with that holy Spirit of promise": The Holy Spirit is described as promised and holy, indicating His sanctifying work and fulfillment of divine promises.

Syntactic Analysis
Verse 13: The sentence structure emphasizes a sequence: hearing the word, believing in Christ, and being sealed with the Holy Spirit. The main clause "ye were sealed" is supported by participial phrases ("after that ye heard" and "after that ye believed"), indicating the chronological order of salvation events.
Verse 14: This verse functions as an explanatory statement about the role of the Holy Spirit. The relative pronoun "Which" (referring to the Holy Spirit) connects to the description "is the earnest of our inheritance" indicating the Holy Spirit as a pledge or down payment of the believer's future inheritance.
Context and Reformed Commentary

Reformed theologians interpret these verses within the framework of covenant theology, emphasizing the Holy Spirit's role in guaranteeing the promises of God to believers.

Key Points in Reformed Commentary:
Sealing of the Spirit:
The seal signifies ownership, authenticity, and security. Believers are marked by the Holy Spirit, indicating that they belong to God.
The sealing is a divine act, underscoring God's initiative and grace in salvation.
The Holy Spirit as the Earnest:
The term "earnest" (ἀρραβών, arrabōn) in Greek, often translated as a pledge or guarantee, signifies the first installment or foretaste of the believer's future inheritance in Christ.

This underscores the "already/not yet" tension in Reformed eschatology, where believers have received the firstfruits of salvation but await its full consummation.

Salvation's Chronological Order:
The sequence of hearing, believing, and being sealed aligns with the ordo salutis (order of salvation) in Reformed theology, where the gospel call precedes faith, which is then followed by the assurance of salvation through the Holy Spirit.

Praise of His Glory:
The ultimate purpose of the sealing is "unto the praise of his glory," emphasizing God's glory as the chief end of salvation, consistent with the Reformed principle of soli Deo gloria (glory to God alone).
Reformed Expositors:

John Calvin: Calvin emphasizes the Holy Spirit's role as a seal and earnest, indicating both security and the initiation of sanctification. He notes that the Spirit confirms believers in their adoption as sons and daughters of God.

Matthew Henry: Henry comments that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is a privilege granted to those who believe, ensuring them of their inheritance and serving as a foretaste of future glory.

Charles Hodge: Hodge focuses on the permanence of the sealing, affirming that it is an irrevocable act of God that assures believers of their salvation and future inheritance.

Conclusion
Ephesians 1:13-14 in the KJV encapsulates the process of salvation where believers are marked by the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of their future inheritance. The Reformed theological perspective emphasizes God's sovereign initiative, the security of the believer in Christ, and the ultimate purpose of glorifying God. The morphological and syntactical analysis further clarifies the sequence and significance of these events in the life of a believer.

Why is it you and I cannot see eye to eye? By the way, nice upgrade on your avatar.
J.

 

[Ritajanice]

Hey Epi is that you?

What a handsome man you are..I hope I’m allowed to say that...I don’t mean anything by it...just speaking from what I see...God Blessed you...I noticed your lovely head of hair as well..

 

[Michiah-Imla]

 

[Episkopos]

What is the qualifications of being a episkopos according to Scripture?
Must I "see" before I can speak and teach-like having a "Paul experience?" You say you are known by God and I make that same claim with a style of life yielded to Christ Jesus and my eyes in Scriptures-a lamp and light unto my feet and path.

There's nothing wrong with yielding to what you read about in the bible. The problem is two-fold. First, it is wrong to name and claim everything you read in the bible without the very same intimacy of walk...the higher walk...as we read in the bible about the people who wrote it.

And second, it is a fatal crime to attack brothers who testify of Christ the same as you read in the bible. People live in unreality...generally. But to disparage the higher walk and those who testify of it...how can such a person escape the judgment to come? All to satisfy an ego??? Where is the wisdom in that?

 

[Ritajanice]

Epi have I offended you? I will take my post down if I have, I was only complimenting you Brother..I don’t think there is anything wrong in that..just say and I will take it down...I know it was off topic...just an observation.LOL.

 

[Johann]

There's nothing wrong with yielding to what you read about in the bible. The problem is two-fold. First, it is wrong to name and claim everything you read in the bible without the very same intimacy of walk...the higher walk...as we read in the bible about the people who wrote it.

And second, it is a fatal crime to attack brothers who testify of Christ the same as you read in the bible. People live in unreality...generally. But to disparage the higher walk and those who testify of it...how can such a person escape the judgment to come? All to satisfy an ego??? Where is the wisdom in that?

This is not a "name and claim" it like the Word of Faith movement-these are the promises and Imperatives as recorded in Scriptures and we are to yield/DEI TO them-usually in the 2Aorist and Middle Voice and without the Holy Spirit none belongs to Messiah. I don't sit as a judge upon YOUR salvation but I can certainly detect error where and when I hear/see it.
In case you did not know but we are to take up our cross, deny self and keep on following our Master-3 Imperatives in one verse.

Your "higher and lower walk" eis Mashiach makes no sense to me as I can't find that in Scriptures.

Enjoy your day.
J.

 

[Episkopos]

Epi have I offended you? I will take my post down if I have, I was only complimenting you Brother..I don’t think there is anything wrong in that..just say and I will take it down...I know it was off topic...just an observation.LOL.

Not at all! :) It's all good. :) Bless you sister <><

 

[Episkopos]

Hey Epi is that you?

What a handsome man you are..I hope I’m allowed to say that...I don’t mean anything by it...just speaking from what I see...God Blessed you...I noticed your lovely head of hair as well..

:)

 

[Michiah-Imla]

 

[Lizbeth]

Does the sword which enters in dividing, separating —cutting away, the removal of the vail over the heart 2 Corinthians 3:15-18 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is (remains)upon their heart. [16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. [17] Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. [18] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Do you see a circumcision made without hands? Linked to that sword that enters into the heart and cuts dividing joints and marrow …what is removed? You asked does it “cleanse”? In removal of the blindness, it does cleanse. In removing that which prevents Christ from being seen, yes it cleanses. Ok in hearing His commanding the worker of iniquity to depart from Him…hear Him in Mark 8:33 …
But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Who savours not the things that be of God, but the things of men.

This whole conversation…I only want you to see one thing. If this is “depart from me, you who work iniquity. I never knew you.” Is ONLY some way out end of things where that verse is …all those that regretfully hear that said to them when it’s too late.

Im trying to get you to consider this one thing…put yourself in that verse first. We have all been those who savour not the things that be of God, but the things of men. Consider how much we boast in that one verse against all those poor suckers who love not the things of God but love the things of men. Personally, I think we might be in for a shocker how we should have at least considered that verse could be to the “worker of iniquity” in us all. Unless we are lying. Did Jesus hate Peter because of rebuking satan saying you love the things of men and not the things of God? No …He stepped in. he told that old worker of inequity to scram. To get behind him. Personally concerning Peter and that incident and all the others where Peter pouted over His asking, “Peter, do you love Me?” “Yes, Lord. You know I love you.” “feed My sheep.” …personally I think Jesus Christ never knew him who worked iniquity in Peter, separating that far from Him.

Yes, I agree....God's word is a mirror that we would see ourselves in it. I came to a place one time when I realized that everything "bad" that Jesus spoke and warned about lives in me, in my old man of the flesh...I consider that all flesh of mankind is basically the same, it's just a matter of there but for the grace of God go I...as to what or how much we manifest any particular problem at any particular time. Nobody has the right to look down on anybody else.

And also His word helps us to discern others and what they are doing.....but not with an attitude of "poor sucker", no. We need to love people and have a care for whatever condition/situation they may be in, and do unto others as you would have them do to you if you were in their shoes.

 

[Lizbeth]

And Sister-this is how I believe re testing-
Hearing God's Voice in Scripture
God’s Communication through Scripture

2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
Interpretation: The Bible is presented as God's authoritative word, fully sufficient for teaching and guiding believers in all aspects of faith and practice. This suggests that regular engagement with Scripture is essential for hearing God's voice.
Guidance by the Holy Spirit

John 16:13: "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."

Interpretation: The Holy Spirit guides believers into all truth, implying an ongoing, dynamic communication that complements the written Word.
not speak of himself. or, from himself. The Holy Spirit works to glorify Christ (Joh_16:14), He does not draw attention to Himself. Just as any reading of Old Testament Scripture which fails to find Christ "in all the Scriptures" (Luk_24:27 note, Luk_24:44) is defective, so any work or ministry alleged to be that of the Holy Spirit, which in balance draws more attention to Him, or gives more emphasis to Him or His manifestations and gifts, than to Christ, is similarly defective. Regularly studying Scripture by means of well-chosen cross references will assist the student of the Bible to maintain the necessary and proper Biblical balance in all things (+*Joh_5:39, +*Isa_8:20 note. *Isa_43:10 note. Mar_7:9, +*Act_17:11; **Act_20:27; **Act_20:32, Php_1:9-10, Col_1:10, +*2Ti_1:7; **2Ti_3:16; **2Ti_3:17, +*2Pe_1:20 note). The study of Scripture in this manner will soon reveal to earnest students any imbalance or wrong perception of Biblical truth on their part, if they are willing to take the Bible as the sole authority for faith and practice (**Psa_119:18, +*Isa_8:20 note). This method of Bible study is "self correcting" (2Ti_2:15; +*2Ti_3:16), the surest corrective for the human tendency to fall into error or go off on tangents (Gal_1:6, Eph_4:14, Col_1:23; Col_2:7, 1Ti_4:16). Note that neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit presume to speak on their own, but speak as directed by God the Father. In this, therefore, they are both subordinate to the Father (Joh_6:38 note), and the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Son. +Joh_7:17, Gen_42:23.
but. Joh_5:19.
he will shew. or, tell. or, report. or, declare. Joh_16:14-15; Joh_16:25, Joh_4:25; Joh_5:15; Joh_15:15, +*Joe_2:28, Act_2:17-18; Act_11:28; Act_14:27; Act_15:4; *Act_20:23; *Act_21:9-11; Act_27:24, 1Co_2:6-10, Eph_1:17-18, 2Th_2:1-3; 2Th_2:12, *1Ti_4:1-3, *2Ti_3:1-5, 1Pe_1:12, 2Pe_2:1; 2Pe_2:14; 2Pe_2:19-21, 1Jn_1:5, **Rev_1:1; **Rev_1:19, Revelation 6-22.
things to come. Isa_41:22, Mat_11:3, Gal_5:5, Rev_4:1; Rev_19:10.



Personal and Direct Guidance

Acts 13:2: "While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, 'Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.'"
Interpretation: The early church experienced direct guidance from the Holy Spirit for specific actions, indicating that God does sometimes speak in a more personal and immediate way.
Do Believers Need to Hear God’s Voice?
Primary Guidance through Scripture

Psalm 119:105: "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path."
Interpretation: Scripture is the primary means through which God guides believers. Immersing oneself in the Bible provides the foundational principles and wisdom needed for life.
Inner Witness of the Holy Spirit

Romans 8:14: "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
Interpretation: The Holy Spirit's inner witness, often experienced as an inner prompting or conviction, is a crucial aspect of God's guidance. This does not always involve an audible voice but a sense of direction and affirmation from the Spirit.
Discernment and Testing

1 John 4:1: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."
Interpretation: Believers are called to discern and test spiritual impressions against Scripture and sound doctrine. This implies that while hearing God’s voice is valuable, it must be validated through biblical principles.


Paragraph: 1John 4:1-6 -
Warning Against False Teachers

1. Many False Prophets Have Gone Out Into the World v.1-3

Believe not every spirit -- (μὴ παντὶ πνεύματι). “Stop believing,” as some were clearly carried away by the spirits of error rampant among them, both Docetic and Gnostics. Credulity means gullibility and some believers fall easy victims to the latest fads in spiritualistic humbuggery.

spirits -- "The spirits are teachers, prophets -- men who claim to have a special revelation from God." - Frank L Cox
"In all ages of the church persons have arisen who claimed to possess supernatural powers, or to have received special revelations. John does not say that they all are insincere and time-serving; but he reminds us that they may be, and that their claims must always be the delusion of fanatical enthusiasts; they may be the lies of fanatical impostors." - Homiletic Commentary.

prove the spirits -- Put them to the acid test of truth as the metallurgist does his metals. If it stands the test like a coin, it is acceptable (dokimos, 2Co_10:18), otherwise it is rejected (adokimos,. 1Co_1:1; 2Co_1:1-7).

test -- try, prove. "run an assay on them as a metallurgist does his metals, and determine whether they were of God. They were to be able to do either by exercising miraculous power in the discernment of spirits (1Co_12:4-11), or by comparing the claims of these men with the known teaching of the Holy Spirit through properly accredited representatives. Today we test such teaching by comparing them with the New Testament. Isa_8:20

many -- Then and now! Even when I hear the VOICE of God and it is not in alignment with Scriptures I would reject it!

The need to hear God’s voice can be understood in a balanced way:

Scripture as the Primary Guide: Regular study and meditation on the Bible is crucial, as it contains God’s revealed will and provides comprehensive guidance for living a godly life. This is the most reliable way to "hear" God.

Holy Spirit’s Inner Witness: Being attuned to the Holy Spirit’s inner promptings and convictions is important for personal guidance. This requires a sensitive and prayerful heart, open to the Spirit's leading.

Discernment and Validation: Any perceived communication from God, whether through inner impressions, circumstances, or other believers, should be tested against the truths of Scripture to ensure it aligns with God’s revealed will.

In summary, while hearing God’s voice can include personal and direct experiences, it fundamentally involves understanding and applying the truths of Scripture, guided by the Holy Spirit, and discerning through a biblical framework. This balanced approach ensures that believers are anchored in God’s word while being open to the Spirit’s leading in their daily lives.

Thanks
J.

Yes, the scriptures are "profitable"....and very profitable I believe, but I think I would stop short of saying they are "essential" in an ultimate literal sense. Because God's arm is never too short and in situations where access to written scriptures is not available, His grace may be, and often is, found to be sufficient.

Don't misunderstand me there though, I don't mean at all to diminish their value and importance and how helpful and needful it is to read and know them, if we are blessed to have access to them.

 

[Johann]

Yes, the scriptures are "profitable"....and very profitable I believe, but I think I would stop short of saying they are "essential" in an ultimate literal sense. Because God's arm is never too short and in situations where access to written scriptures is not available, His grace may be, and often is, found to be sufficient.

Don't misunderstand me there though, I don't mean at all to diminish their value and importance and how helpful and needful it is to read and know them, if we are blessed to have access to them.

Yes, Scriptures are "profitable" AND essential --in a literal and essential sense. I noticed @marks Liked your answer for some reason but I would disagree.

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How to become "involved"

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[VictoryinJesus]

Yes, I agree....God's word is a mirror that we would see ourselves in it. I came to a place one time when I realized that everything "bad" that Jesus spoke and warned about lives in me, in my old man of the flesh...I consider that all flesh of mankind is basically the same, it's just a matter of there but for the grace of God go I...as to what or how much we manifest any particular problem at any particular time. Nobody has the right to look down on anybody else.

And also His word helps us to discern others and what they are doing.....but not with an attitude of "poor sucker", no. We need to love people and have a care for whatever condition/situation they may be in, and do unto others as you would have them do to you if you were in their shoes.

I can relate. Me too on realizing what he warned about lives in me, in my old man of flesh. It’s that one that rares up in envy or geed or lust to have better than you have been given, that you need to watch out for. I’d be lying if I said I never struggle with so much the disciples struggled with like “who’s the greatest among us, Lord?” Or “what about that one over there? What’s their part?” I don’t like that voice. It makes me crazy stupid. Like a green eyed monster!

But we are not at odds with each other. I bet if we could ever sit for a meal together and discuss things…we’d find we have a lot in common. And want the same thing for each other.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I can relate. Me too on realizing what he warned about lives in me, in my old man of flesh. It’s that one that rares up in envy or geed or lust to have better than you have been given, that you need to watch out for. I’d be lying if I said I never struggle with so much the disciples struggled with like “who’s the greatest among us, Lord?” Or “what about that one over there? What’s their part?” I don’t like that voice. It makes me crazy stupid. Like a green eyed monster!

Now that I think about it. This is why I love the passage of His saying to the worker of iniquity, “depart from Me. I never knew you!” I’m in agreement saying yes, command the worker of iniquity to “depart!”

Romans 7:23-25…but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. [24] Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [25] Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

 

[Johann]

Now that I think about it. This is why I love the passage of His saying to the worker of iniquity, “depart from Me. I never knew you!” I’m in agreement saying yes, command the worker of iniquity to “depart!”

Romans 7:23-25…but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. [24] Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [25] Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

 

[marks]

Yes, Scriptures are "profitable" AND essential --in a literal and essential sense. I noticed @marks Liked your answer for some reason but I would disagree.

I believe God holds us responsible to what He's given to us. And for the one to whom has no access to a Bible, to whom God speaks to them, and they believe, and are reborn, they can still know God, even if they don't have a copy of the Scriptures.

The witness of creation is sufficient to salvation, if a person follows it through. The glory of Creation shows the power of the Creator. Since we are created with a sense of right and wrong our Creator must consider that important. Since we do what we know is wrong, we are at odds with our Creator. Since He is our Creator, we can be created, and we can be destroyed. So to the One Whom I've offended by doing what I know wrong, I beg mercy!

To the one who has the Scriptures, and neglects them, woe that that one!

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I believe God holds us responsible to what He's given to us. And for the one to whom has no access to a Bible, to whom God speaks to them, and they believe, and are reborn, they can still know God, even if they don't have a copy of the Scriptures.

The witness of creation is sufficient to salvation, if a person follows it through. The glory of Creation shows the power of the Creator. Since we are created with a sense of right and wrong our Creator must consider that important. Since we do what we know is wrong, we are at odds with our Creator. Since He is our Creator, we can be created, and we can be destroyed. So to the One Whom I've offended by doing what I know wrong, I beg mercy!

To the one who has the Scriptures, and neglects them, woe that that one!

Much love!

Here is my question to you-do you hold that Scripture is "profitable" but not essential in a literal sense?
Aside-I cause offenses and I beg mercy but it would seem I am the only one here believing God is speaking and showing me the way through His written word and to "hear" His voice I read the Scriptures out aloud. I can go on and on but this would suffice.


Romans 1:20 (New International Version):
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Psalm 19:1-4 (NIV):
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge. They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them. Yet their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

Psalm 97:6 (NIV):
"The heavens proclaim his righteousness, and all peoples see his glory."

Acts 14:17 (NIV):
"Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy."

Job 12:7-10 (NIV):
"But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish in the sea inform you. Which of all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this? In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind."

Shalom
J.

 

[marks]

Here is my question to you-do you hold that Scripture is "profitable" but not essential in a literal sense?

I think if you have the Scriptures then yes they are essential. I think that God is able to reach someone even without the Bible. If you have the Bible, learn it, it's God's Word to you.

I am the only one here believing God is speaking and showing me the way through His written word and to "hear" His voice I read the Scriptures out aloud.

This describes me also.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I think if you have the Scriptures then yes they are essential. I think that God is able to reach someone even without the Bible. If you have the Bible, learn it, it's God's Word to you.

Yes of course God can reach out to a prisoner in jail without a Bible-for God nothing is impossible. Depends on what you mean "if you think you have the scriptures"-maybe you can clarify this for me.

This describes me also.

Thank you.
J.

 

[Johann]

Yes, the scriptures are "profitable"....and very profitable I believe, but I think I would stop short of saying they are "essential" in an ultimate literal sense. Because God's arm is never too short and in situations where access to written scriptures is not available, His grace may be, and often is, found to be sufficient.

Don't misunderstand me there though, I don't mean at all to diminish their value and importance and how helpful and needful it is to read and know them, if we are blessed to have access to them.

John Bunyan on the Papacy

"Antichrist is the adversary of Christ - an adversary really, a friend pretendedly; so then Antichrist is one that is against Christ, one that is for Christ, and one that is contrary to Him - and this is that mystery of iniquity. Against Him in deed, for Him in word, and contrary to Him in practice" (Complete Works of John Bunyan, Volume 4, 1968, 140-141).

"[The false Church] blasphemes the Holy Ghost in accusing and condemning the Holy Scriptures of insufficiency, for that she says, though as a rule, yet but imperfect one; one deficient, one that is not able to make the man of God perfect in all things, without traditions, inventions, and blasphemous helps of anti-Christian wisdom" (Complete Works of John Bunyan, Volume 4, 151).

If one could prove the proposition that the Bible is the Word of God, then the proposition would not be the starting point. There would be something even before Scripture. According to Scripture, however, there is no higher source of truth than God’s own self-disclosure. As stated by the author of Hebrews, “because He [God] could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself” (6:13). The Scriptures, therefore, cannot possibly be deduced from any superior principle. They are, as Calvin taught, self-authenticating and self-attesting. He wrote:

For they mock the Holy Spirit when they ask: Who can convince us that these writings come from God? Who can assure us that Scripture has come down whole and intact even to our day? ... Thus the highest proof of Scripture derives in general from the fact that God in person speaks in it. The prophets and apostles do not boast either of their keenness or of anything that obtains credit from them as they speak; nor do they dwell upon rational proofs. Rather, they bring forward God’s holy name, that by it the whole world may be brought into obedience to Him.(7)



The Westminster Confession of Faith (1:4) says it this way:

The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed and obeyed, depends not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the author thereof; and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.



And Jonathan Edwards commented that the Word of God does not “go about begging for its evidence, so much as some think; it has the highest and most proper evidence in itself.”(8) One, then, must accept God’s special revelation as axiomatic, or there is no knowledge possible at all. In the words of Clark, “an immediate point, touching on both epistemology and theology…is the impossibility of knowing God otherwise than by revelation…either revelation must be accepted as an axiom or there is no knowledge of God at all.”(9)



Further, in Christian epistemology, there is no dichotomy between faith (revelation) and reason (logic). These two go hand in hand, for it is Jesus Christ, the Logos, who reveals the truth. Christianity is rational, because Christ is Himself the Logic,(10) Reason, and Wisdom of God incarnate (John 1:1; 1 Corinthians 1:24, 30; Colossians 2:3). Being the image of God, man can reason; he can think logically, because God has given him this innate ability.



This God-given ability permits men to understand the propositions revealed in Scripture. It is necessary to believe something, as one’s axiomatic starting point, in order to understand anything. To reason properly, one must have a foundation upon which all is based. In the Christian worldview (Christian rationalism), knowledge comes through reason (i.e., logic), not from reasoning (as in pure rationalism). Unlike pure rationalism, Scripturalism stands upon the foundation of Biblical revelation. As stated in Augustine’s dictum: “I believe in order to understand.”(11)

The Trinity Foundation - Luther and Calvin on the Authority of the Bible

All acquainted with the sixteenth century Reformation know that the watchword was Sola Scriptura-”Scripture alone.” This assertion was made against the pope, the church “fathers,” and church councils. Luther

www.trinityfoundation.org

And with this I rest my case.
Johann.