Deconstruction Part 2: Into Apostolicity

[Episkopos]

What people will surmise based on the decoy gospel....for those who don't love the truth... is that God wants to cover up YOUR sins with HIS righteousness. And that is the furthest thing from the truth. That is why it is so popular.

Jesus doesn't cover up our sins.

First comes a cleansing from ALL sin....by the power of the cross. THEN, the covering of God's righteousness serves to protect and preserve that cleansing in HIS holiness. That we might be partakers of His holiness.

What is God covering? Our sins? NO, His perfection in holiness.

So while people have been duped to believe that holiness is gradual and that God covers up our true condition, they will claim that God can't see them...that grace blinds God to their true condition.

However, Grace is the POWER of God unto holiness. Being UNDER grace means we have been purified, made holy...and now walk in Christ's perfection. A false idea of being under grace is that we are slowly committing less sins until we become just like Jesus by osmosis. But nobody ever grows into Christ who isn't already made holy beforehand. We learn IN holiness. Nobody learns holiness. It's like trying to learn how to swim without water. You need the water first and then learn to swim IN IT. Likewise we need to be 100% holy in order to learn IN holiness. The gradual thing we learn is righteousness NOT holiness. And learning righteousness means we admit our own weakness and failures...not falsely claim the righteousness of God for ourselves. That is UNrighteousness.

Paul warns us that the wrath of God is on those who hold the truth....in unrighteousness (Rom. 1:18). But people will go on their merry way as if God was not serious about sin.

 

[Hepzibah]

Early Christian Spirituality.

The early church writers, following on from scripture, the apostles and the apostolic fathers, in the tradition that is spoken of, handed down in verbal as well as written form and which is found throughout the Divine Liturgy, found in their writings, and concerns the psychological sickness of man due to the fall and more importantly, the ‘cure’ of it. This cure takes place in the process of divination consisting of purgation, illumination, and ending in a definite entering into Theosis or union with Christ.

“becoming by grace what God is by nature" (Athanasius, De Incarnatione, I).

The monasteries were where this teaching was found (and which also served their communities in general teaching and health care) and those who had been through the process, were taken as bishops, as in the early years, one could not become a bishop unless one was united with Christ, and healed of their ‘passions’ and therefore able to help in the healing of others in their jurisdictions. The monasteries were considered to be like medical schools for believers, and the churches as hospitals for the souls of men (not law courts as in Protestantism) who would submit themselves to disciplines leading them to a contrite heart and prepared for the work of grace in purifying the heart.

The results of these works of God would result in the qualities quoted in the article: people of prayer, lovers of scripture, pursuers of holiness (and receivers) zealously evangelistic and mission minded, willing martyrs/sufferers for Christ. This was due to them loving the Lord their God with their whole purified heart, mind, soul and strength and is also found in those through history who had been baptised in the same Spirit to bear the fruit thereof, and the only way to live in the same reality. The saints are empirical proof of theosis. Christians cannot make their impure hearts pure but can seek it with their whole being.

The Christian gospel, as recorded in the Scriptures and maintained in Classical Christianity, is replete with the artifacts of holiness – tangible, living examples of transfigured lives – not morally improved but something other. Human beings becoming gods (in the bold language of the early fathers). (Fr Stephen Freeman, Saintless Christianity?

So this spirituality involved their whole lives and not split off from theology but their aim was not equal to those since the beginning in Acts, who opposed this teaching and for the western faith traditions where it has only been found in scarcity as it began to fade and disappear with those who followed Augustine of Hippo’s teaching, to the whole of the Latin west. Protestant theology is traceable directly to him as the early church did not believe in determinism, sola scriptura or original sin (not denying that all men will fall into sin). So apparently, these ‘heretics’ according to Protestantism, lived the genuine Christian life, which has barely been matched since.

Here is an interesting four part series called Contra Sola Scriptura written by an ex-Calvinist minister which lays out exactly where Protestantism differs from the early years, written by a converted Calvinist minister.

Contra Sola Scriptura (1 of 4) – Orthodox-Reformed Bridge

 

[Hepzibah]

Right, Just finished listening to the two videos @Hepzibah-what do you want me to say?

PM replied to.

 

[Hepzibah]

A STUDY OF HOLINESS FROM THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS By J. B. GALLOWAY

CHAPTER FOUR Clement of Alexandria A LINK IN THE EARLY CHRISTIAN SCHOOLS His full name was Titus Flavius Clemens. He was a celebrated Greek father of the Early Church, of about A.D. 153 to 217. It is uncertain whether he was born in Alexandria, Egypt, or Athens. He was probably born of heathen parents and received a liberal education and sought many teachers; for this purpose he traveled extensively through Greece, Italy, Egypt, Palestine, and the East. He finally resorted to Pantaenus, who presided over the Christian school at Alexandria. Here he entered the Church and was made a presbyter. He taught with great distinction and succeeded Pantaenus as the head of this famous school.

During the persecution of Septimius Severus he left Egypt, and later we hear of him in Palestine and Asia Minor. His last days are veiled with obscurity, so that we do not know the place or time of his death. He was followed in the school by his pupil Origen. Clement of Alexandria was a man of great learning and proficient in Greek philosophy, literature, and history. His greatest works are: Exhortation to the Heathen, the object of which was to win them to the Christian faith; the Instructor, which contains instruction in morals and matters of everyday life; and the Stromata, which is a miscellaneous collection of unsystematic discussions of doctrinal points. In these he tries to guide the mature Christian to perfect knowledge. He speaks of a young man's being baptized and then anointed with oil. After the Church began to anoint the young converts with oil, they would pray that they might be filled with the Holy Ghost. The anointing was called sealing; this was probably from Ephesians 1:13 (see Eusebius, Book III, chapter 17).

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA ON HOLINESS

Free from All Sin He believed that a man could be freed from all sin at baptism. In his Instructor, Book I, chapter 6, he says: Thus also we who are baptized, have wiped off the sins which obscure the light of the divine Spirit, and have the eye of the Spirit free and unimpaired, full of light, by which we contemplate the divine, the Holy Spirit flowing down from above. This is the eternal adjustment of vision, which is able to see the eternal light, since like loves like; and that which is holy loves that from which holiness proceeds, which has appropriately been termed light. Still Carnal A little further on in the chapter he sees a distinction between the spiritual and the carnal Christian, for he says: For he called those who had already believed, spiritual, and those newly instructed and not yet purified, carnal, whom with justice he calls still carnal, as minding equally with the heathen the things of the flesh. Perfect Women In Book 4, chapter 19, he shows that woman is capable of perfection as well as man. In chapters 20 and 21 he gives a description of the perfect man. "Who then is perfect? He who professes abstinence from what is bad." He shows that the Spirit distributes the gifts of the Spirit that each may be perfect in his own place of service.

And the same Spirit, distributing to each according to His will. Such being the case, the prophets are perfect in prophecy, the righteous in righteousness, the martyrs in confession, and others in preaching, not that they are not sharers in the common virtues, but are proficient in those to which they are appointed. Holy Thoughts In chapter 22 he says: We ought to go washed to the sacrifices and prayers, clean and bright; that this external adornment and purification are practiced for a sign. Now purity is to think holy thoughts . . . . For purity, as I conceive it, is perfect pureness in mind, and deeds and thoughts, and words too. Dignified with the Spirit In chapter 25 he shows that true perfection consists in the knowledge of the love of God, and in chapter 26 he shows how the perfect man treats the body and the things of the world.

He says: . . . that those who run down created existence and vilify the body are wrong . . . . Whence this abode becomes receptive of the soul which is most precious to God; and is dignified with the Holy Spirit through the sanctification of soul and body, perfected with the perfection of the Saviour . . . The body too, is one sent on a distant pilgrimage, using inns and dwellings by the way, caring for the things by the way, of the place where he halts; but leaving his dwelling and property without excessive emotion giving thanks for the sojourn, and blessing God for his departure, embracing the mansion in heaven. Holy Builders In his Stromata, Book 7, chapter 5, he shows that a holy soul is a more excellent temple than any man-made edifice.

He begins by saying: For is it not the case that rightly and truly we do not circumscribe in any place that which cannot be circumscribed; nor do we shut up in temples made with hands that which contains all things? What work of builders, and stone-cutters, and mechanical art can be holy? Holy Altar of Prayer In the next chapter we read that prayer and praise from a pure mind is better than sacrifices. But if, by nature needing nothing, He delights to be honored, it is not without reason that we honor God in prayer; and thus the best and holiest sacrifice with righteousness we bring, presenting it as an offering to the most righteous Word, by whom we receive knowledge, giving glory to Him for that we have learned.

A little farther on he says, And will they not believe us when we say that the righteous soul is the truly sacred altar, and the incense arising from it is holy prayer? Steps to Perfection In chapter 10 he gives the steps to perfection, and begins with knowledge. For knowledge to speak generally, a perfecting of man as man, is consummated by acquaintance with divine things, in character, life, and word, accordant and conformable to itself and to the divine Word. For by it faith is perfected, inasmuch as it is solely by that the believer becomes perfect. Faith is an internal good, and without searching for God, confesses His existence, and glorifies Him as existent. Commenting further on faith, he says: And this takes place when one hangs on the Lord by faith, by knowledge, by love, and ascends along with Him to where the God and guard of our faith is . . . . It leads us to an endless and perfect end, teaching us beforehand the future life, that we shall lead, according to God. Again he says in the same chapter, After which redemption the rewards and honors are assigned to those who have become perfect; when they have done with purification, and cease from all service, though it be holy service.

Society of Angels In chapter 12 he says of a holy man: His whole life is prayer and converse with God. And if he be pure from sins, he will by all means obtain what he wishes. For He says to the righteous man, "Ask, and I will give thee." . . . So he is always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of saints standing around him. We will close with a statement from chapter 12. Here he is commenting upon I Corinthians 6:1, and he says of a holy man: But ye are sanctified, for he who has come to this state is in a condition to be holy, falling in none of the passions in any way, but as it were separated and already grown holy without this earth.

 

[Lizbeth]

1. The book of Acts offers no real distinction between being Baptized in the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit. Really late thinkers, such as the early Pentecostals of 1901 onward, invented a distinction that could hardly be pressed from a New Testament perspective.

(Your post is too long for me to parse every point and there is no room in the allowed number of characters to quote the whole post and reply to it.)

But why did you mention and highlight this above....? .....I don't make a distinction between being baptized in the Holy Spirit and being filled...I believe they are one and the same. Maybe you misunderstood something I said...? After His resurrection when Jesus breathed on His disciples and said receive ye the Holy Spirit, I believe that is like us when we are born again. (The disciples couldn't be born again until after His death and resurrection.) So we who believe have already received the Holy Spirit in that sense. However the disciples still needed to receive or be baptized/filled in the way that occurred on the day of Pentecost...which couldn't be poured out until after Jesus had ascended to the Father, as He said in Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Think we must follow the same pattern as those first disciples.........if we are also disciples. "If ye would be my disciples...."

 

[Hepzibah]

Deification in the Early Church

In the introduction to The Study of Holiness from the Early Church Fathers by J. B. Galloway(Wipf and Stock Publishers, 2014), we read: “If the teachings of the modern holiness movement are correct concerning the doctrine of holiness and the baptism with the Holy Ghost as an experience for the saints of God today, perfecting them in Christian love and freeing them form carnal sin, it seems that we should find some evidences of this faith and teachings in the period of the history of the Church where it was the closest to the days of Christ”

“The commentator Adam Clarke objected that the opinion that Paul was speaking of a regenerate person ‘has most pitifully and most shamefully lowered the Standard of Christianity, and even destroyed its influence and disgraced its character.’ A.H. Francke and J. Bengel (and, a little later, John Wesley, and, later still Moses Stuart) were among those who thought that Paul was describing a man who was under conviction of sin, but not yet regenerate. “ Rom 7:24 – Who is the ‘wretched man’? – Walking With Giants

In his celebrated book Holiness, Ryle writes: ‘I am quite satisfied that it does not describe the experience of an unconverted man, or of a young and unestablished Christian; but of an old experienced saint in close communion with God. None but such a man could say, “I delight in the law of God after the inward man” (Rom. 7:22).’

The analysis of Christian development into these three ‘ways’ or phases derives from Dionysius the Pseudo-Areopagite, who ascribed a rhythm of purification, illumination, and union (or perfection) both to the hierarchies of angels and to the Church on earth. Medieval W. interpreters of Dionysius turned his scheme into an account of spiritual progress in terms of the three ways, beginning with the eradication of bad habits and the cultivation of the virtues, moving on to the illumination of the mind by meditation and contemplation, and culminating in unitive love. These three ways were adopted by later writers such as St John of the Cross and so became classic in systematic theories of Christian spirituality. purgative, illuminative, and unitive ways

St. Gregory Nazianzen, one of the great theologians of the fourth century, calls out to us over the centuries and exhorts us with the following. To quote St. Gregory: “Let us not remain what we are, but let us become what we once were.” And from St. Peter, the chief of the apostles, through the first-century voice of St. Ignatius of Antioch, from Irenaeus of the second century through the great Cappadocian Fathers of the fourth century, of the great Desert Fathers of the fifth century, Maximus the Confessor of the sixth century to John of Damascus and John of The Ladder in the ninth century, from Gregory Palamas in the 14th century to St. Silouan in the 20th century—the great Fathers of our Orthodox Church have echoed this exhortation of St. Gregory, reminding us and ever pointing us to the truth, that by God’s grace we can become much more than we are. Our Purpose Our Passions - Purification, Illumination, Deification: Orthodox Spirituality | Ancient Faith Ministries

 

[Johann]

(Your post is too long for me to parse every point and there is no room in the allowed number of characters to quote the whole post and reply to it.)

But why did you mention and highlight this above....? .....I don't make a distinction between being baptized in the Holy Spirit and being filled...I believe they are one and the same. Maybe you misunderstood something I said...? After His resurrection when Jesus breathed on His disciples and said receive ye the Holy Spirit, I believe that is like us when we are born again. (The disciples couldn't be born again until after His death and resurrection.) So we who believe have already received the Holy Spirit in that sense. However the disciples still needed to receive or be baptized/filled in the way that occurred on the day of Pentecost...which couldn't be poured out until after Jesus had ascended to the Father, as He said in Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Think we must follow the same pattern as those first disciples.........if we are also disciples. "If ye would be my disciples...."

It shall help thee greatly to understand Scripture
If thou mark not only WHAT is spoken
Or written
But of whom
And to whom
With what words
At what time
Where
To what intent
With what circumstances
Considering what goeth before
And what followeth after

Miles Coverdale-died in 1569.

I have highlighted that part for a reason @Lizbeth-you say the baptism in filling with the Holy Spirit is the same yet still want to make a distinction with the disciples, who later became the Apostles.


THE BELIEVER’S SPIRITUAL OBJECTIVE
The majority of believers are very much confused with regard to the Holy Spirit’s work in their lives and the exact extent to which they may expect His help in overcoming sin. This confusion has been brought about mainly by the unscriptural tradition that the present dispensation began with the pouring out of the Spirit at Pentecost. A further word in this connection will therefore be necessary.

Those who hold that Pentecost marks the beginning of the present dispensation should examine carefully those Scriptures which deal with the Holy Spirit and His work. A simple comparison, for example, of His operation at Pentecost with His operation today, as outlined in the Pauline epistles, can lead to but one conclusion: that the baptism with, or in, the Spirit at Pentecost has been superseded by another baptism altogether—that by which believers are baptized into one body—and that the Body of Christ did not exist (except in the mind of God) when the Spirit was poured out at Pentecost.

If our Fundamentalist leaders will verify and accept this fact, they will have the answer to the “Pentecostal” fanaticism that is sweeping the country today.

THE SPIRIT’S OPERATION AT PENTECOST
Concerning the one hundred twenty believers gathered in the upper room at Pentecost, we read:

“And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:4, R.V.).

This, of course, is another way of saying that the Holy Spirit took complete possession of them.1 Those who have come to appreciate the meaning of the Bible word baptism, will see at once the connection with the Lord’s promise that His own should be baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5). Indeed, they were “filled” with the Spirit (Acts 2:4) in fulfillment of the promise that they should be “baptized” with the Spirit.

And the result of this baptism, this filling, with the Spirit, was not only that they possessed miraculous powers, but also that they lived the kind of lives which God’s people prior to that time had failed to live, and this is the particular matter with which we are here concerned.

Mark well: in Acts 2:4 we do not have an exhortation to be filled with the Spirit, as we have later in the Pauline epistles. Rather, we have a simple statement of fact: “They were all filled with the Holy Spirit.”

The one hundred twenty had, of course, been much like any other group of believers in history. They had not all been equally spiritual or devoted or faithful. Some had been more so than others, and where some had excelled in one virtue, others had excelled in another. Yet now they were all FILLED with the Spirit, from the least to the greatest of them.

The thoughtful student of Scripture will, of course, ask why all these believers were now filled with the Holy Spirit. Was it, perhaps, because they, as a group, had been more godly than those before them? The gospel records prove that this is not so.

Peter boasted, Thomas doubted, James and John sought personal gain, and when our Lord was taken prisoner, “they all forsook Him and fled.” Was it then because they had prayed long enough or earnestly enough for the Spirit to come upon them and take control? No; they had been instructed to go to Jerusalem, not to pray for the Holy Spirit to come, as some suppose, but to “wait for the [fulfillment of the] promise” regarding the Spirit (Acts 1:4,5)—and right here is the answer to our question.

The believers at Pentecost were filled with the Holy Spirit, not because they had prayed long or earnestly enough for the Spirit to come, but because the time had arrived for the fulfillment2 of the divine promise. The Old Testament prophets and the Lord Jesus had promised that the Holy Spirit should some day come to take control of God’s people, and that day had come. They were filled with the Spirit because God, according to His promise, had baptized them with the Spirit.

The Filling With The Spirit

THE BELIEVER'S SPIRITUAL OBJECTIVE The majority of believers are very much confused with regard to the Holy Spirit's work in their lives and the exact extent to which they may expect His help in overcoming sin. This confusion has been brought about mainly by the unscriptural tradition that the pres

bereanbiblesociety.org

Now I am going to ask you again to open the link-no need to feel led to do so-and read for yourself, and then come back and we can discuss.

Thanks
Johann

 

[Johann]

A STUDY OF HOLINESS FROM THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS By J. B. GALLOWAY

CHAPTER FOUR Clement of Alexandria A LINK IN THE EARLY CHRISTIAN SCHOOLS His full name was Titus Flavius Clemens. He was a celebrated Greek father of the Early Church, of about A.D. 153 to 217. It is uncertain whether he was born in Alexandria, Egypt, or Athens. He was probably born of heathen parents and received a liberal education and sought many teachers; for this purpose he traveled extensively through Greece, Italy, Egypt, Palestine, and the East. He finally resorted to Pantaenus, who presided over the Christian school at Alexandria. Here he entered the Church and was made a presbyter. He taught with great distinction and succeeded Pantaenus as the head of this famous school.

During the persecution of Septimius Severus he left Egypt, and later we hear of him in Palestine and Asia Minor. His last days are veiled with obscurity, so that we do not know the place or time of his death. He was followed in the school by his pupil Origen. Clement of Alexandria was a man of great learning and proficient in Greek philosophy, literature, and history. His greatest works are: Exhortation to the Heathen, the object of which was to win them to the Christian faith; the Instructor, which contains instruction in morals and matters of everyday life; and the Stromata, which is a miscellaneous collection of unsystematic discussions of doctrinal points. In these he tries to guide the mature Christian to perfect knowledge. He speaks of a young man's being baptized and then anointed with oil. After the Church began to anoint the young converts with oil, they would pray that they might be filled with the Holy Ghost. The anointing was called sealing; this was probably from Ephesians 1:13 (see Eusebius, Book III, chapter 17).

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA ON HOLINESS

Free from All Sin He believed that a man could be freed from all sin at baptism. In his Instructor, Book I, chapter 6, he says: Thus also we who are baptized, have wiped off the sins which obscure the light of the divine Spirit, and have the eye of the Spirit free and unimpaired, full of light, by which we contemplate the divine, the Holy Spirit flowing down from above. This is the eternal adjustment of vision, which is able to see the eternal light, since like loves like; and that which is holy loves that from which holiness proceeds, which has appropriately been termed light. Still Carnal A little further on in the chapter he sees a distinction between the spiritual and the carnal Christian, for he says: For he called those who had already believed, spiritual, and those newly instructed and not yet purified, carnal, whom with justice he calls still carnal, as minding equally with the heathen the things of the flesh. Perfect Women In Book 4, chapter 19, he shows that woman is capable of perfection as well as man. In chapters 20 and 21 he gives a description of the perfect man. "Who then is perfect? He who professes abstinence from what is bad." He shows that the Spirit distributes the gifts of the Spirit that each may be perfect in his own place of service.

And the same Spirit, distributing to each according to His will. Such being the case, the prophets are perfect in prophecy, the righteous in righteousness, the martyrs in confession, and others in preaching, not that they are not sharers in the common virtues, but are proficient in those to which they are appointed. Holy Thoughts In chapter 22 he says: We ought to go washed to the sacrifices and prayers, clean and bright; that this external adornment and purification are practiced for a sign. Now purity is to think holy thoughts . . . . For purity, as I conceive it, is perfect pureness in mind, and deeds and thoughts, and words too. Dignified with the Spirit In chapter 25 he shows that true perfection consists in the knowledge of the love of God, and in chapter 26 he shows how the perfect man treats the body and the things of the world.

He says: . . . that those who run down created existence and vilify the body are wrong . . . . Whence this abode becomes receptive of the soul which is most precious to God; and is dignified with the Holy Spirit through the sanctification of soul and body, perfected with the perfection of the Saviour . . . The body too, is one sent on a distant pilgrimage, using inns and dwellings by the way, caring for the things by the way, of the place where he halts; but leaving his dwelling and property without excessive emotion giving thanks for the sojourn, and blessing God for his departure, embracing the mansion in heaven. Holy Builders In his Stromata, Book 7, chapter 5, he shows that a holy soul is a more excellent temple than any man-made edifice.

He begins by saying: For is it not the case that rightly and truly we do not circumscribe in any place that which cannot be circumscribed; nor do we shut up in temples made with hands that which contains all things? What work of builders, and stone-cutters, and mechanical art can be holy? Holy Altar of Prayer In the next chapter we read that prayer and praise from a pure mind is better than sacrifices. But if, by nature needing nothing, He delights to be honored, it is not without reason that we honor God in prayer; and thus the best and holiest sacrifice with righteousness we bring, presenting it as an offering to the most righteous Word, by whom we receive knowledge, giving glory to Him for that we have learned.

A little farther on he says, And will they not believe us when we say that the righteous soul is the truly sacred altar, and the incense arising from it is holy prayer? Steps to Perfection In chapter 10 he gives the steps to perfection, and begins with knowledge. For knowledge to speak generally, a perfecting of man as man, is consummated by acquaintance with divine things, in character, life, and word, accordant and conformable to itself and to the divine Word. For by it faith is perfected, inasmuch as it is solely by that the believer becomes perfect. Faith is an internal good, and without searching for God, confesses His existence, and glorifies Him as existent. Commenting further on faith, he says: And this takes place when one hangs on the Lord by faith, by knowledge, by love, and ascends along with Him to where the God and guard of our faith is . . . . It leads us to an endless and perfect end, teaching us beforehand the future life, that we shall lead, according to God. Again he says in the same chapter, After which redemption the rewards and honors are assigned to those who have become perfect; when they have done with purification, and cease from all service, though it be holy service.

Society of Angels In chapter 12 he says of a holy man: His whole life is prayer and converse with God. And if he be pure from sins, he will by all means obtain what he wishes. For He says to the righteous man, "Ask, and I will give thee." . . . So he is always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of saints standing around him. We will close with a statement from chapter 12. Here he is commenting upon I Corinthians 6:1,

Yes, just one question, so we are AS holy as God in Christ is, the old man, passions and lusts somehow surgically removed and no need for us to die to it, instant sanctification-correct?

The writings of the early church is rather lengthy

" and he says of a holy man: But ye are sanctified, for he who has come to this state is in a condition to be holy, falling in none of the passions in any way, but as it were separated and already grown holy without this earth."

Sounds like the Monks and Wesleyan movement-no offense.

Johann..

 

[Johann]

Think we must follow the same pattern as those first disciples.........if we are also disciples. "If ye would be my disciples...."

Baptism in the Holy Spirit


The term ‘baptism in the Holy Spirit’ is used by Pentecostalists and some charismatics to refer to a ‘second blessing’ of the Christian subsequent to the experience of conversion. It is seen as a full reception of, or release by, the Holy Spirit, issuing in the exercise of any of a number of ‘spiritual gifts’ including, for many, the gift of tongues.

This understanding is attended by a number of problems.

1. The expression ‘baptism in the Holy Spirit’ (or something similar) occurs some seven times in the New Testament. Six refer to John the Baptist’s contrast between his preparatory heralding ministry, baptizing ‘with water’, and Jesus’ coming Messianic ministry, baptizing ‘with the Holy Spirit’ (Mt 3:11; Mk 1:8; Lk 3:16; Jn 1:33; Acts 1:5; 11:16). The term is also used by Paul in 1 Cor 12:13, where he affirms that all have been baptised in the Holy Spirit. (Note that v30 of the same chapter implies that not all spoke in tongues, so, as most now recognise, it is impossible to make tongues the touchstone of Spirit-baptism.)

2. The imagery of ‘baptism’ is strongly associated with the idea of ‘initiation’. Therefore the ‘baptism in the Holy Spirit’ is best understood as the reception of the Holy Spirit by every believer at the time of his or her new birth. As John Stott explains, ‘The ‘baptism’ of the Spirit is identical with the ‘gift’ of the Spirit,…it is one of the distinctive blessings of the new convenant, and, because it is an initial blessing, is also a universal blessing for members of the covenant…So then, whatever post-conversion experiences there may be…’baptism with the Spirit’ cannot be the right expression to use for them.’ (Baptism and Fullness, 43f.)

3. Proponents of the doctrine of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as a ‘second blessing’ point out that in Acts the fullness of the Spirit often follows conversion to Christ after some period of time. However, the reason for the two-stage experience in apostolic days was that many had become believers before the Spirit’s New-Covenant ministry began. The apostles themselves clearly expected others to enjoy the fullness of the Spirit’s ministry from conversion onwards, Acts 2:38; 5:32.

4. At the outset of the charismatic movement in this country, David Watson and others had a conversation with Martyn Lloyd-Jones, at which the latter declared, “Gentlemen, I believe that you have been baptised with the Holy Spirit!” On later reflection, however, Watson concluded that the good doctor’s ‘diagnosis’ should have been, “You have been filled with the Holy Spirit” (You Are My God, 55). By 1981 a report into the Charismatic Movement in the Church of England could note that ‘most Anglican charismatics are now very cautious about any concept of a two-stage initiation connected with their experience.’ (The Charismatic Movement in the Church of England, 57f).

Accordingly, many teachers within the Pentecostal tradition (particularly those associated with the so-called ‘Third Wave’) now agree that the baptism in the Spirit occurs at conversion, not as a second work of grace. (So Grudem, Systematic Theology, ch. 39). They would also tend to agree that any stereotyping of Christian experience into two distinct stages is pastorally divisive, implying a separate class of elite Christians. Our teaching should be “one baptism, many fillings.”

5. None of the above, however, should obscure the fact that many professing Christians are living their lives at a level far below what could be considered ‘normal’ from a New Testament point of view. While it is important for us not to mis-name the desired enrichment as ‘baptism in the Holy Spirit’, it is far more important for us seek the enrichment itself; for each of us to earnestly desire to ‘keep on being filled with the Spirit’ (Eph 5:18).

Baptism in the Holy Spirit – Walking With Giants

 

[Johann]

@Lizbeth --"Rapid fire ministry"

“Baptism in the Holy Spirit” – a separate stage of salvation?


A key question in debates about the ‘baptism in the Holy Spirit’ is whether this describes a separate stage of salvation or not.

Some have argued in the affirmative. For instance, Pentecostal leader Ralph Riggs asserted that:-

The baptism with the Spirit is a work of the Holy Spirit distinct from and subsequent and additional to His regeneration work. A man may be regenerated by the Holy Spirit and still not be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

(in Bruner, A Theology of the Holy Spirit, 46).

Michael Harper quotes R.A. Torrey with approval:-

A man may be regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and still not be baptized with the Holy Spirit. In regeneration, there is the impartation of life by the Spirit’s power, and the one who receives it is saved: in the baptism with the Holy Spirit, there is the impartation of power, and the one who receives it is fitted for service.

(Power for the Body of Christ, 22).

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is often associated in Pentecostal teaching with the gift of tongues:-

If we only wish to perform the barest minimum essential for life everlasting, then once we have repented of our sins and accepted Jesus Christ as our personal Saviour, we may live and obtain life eternal. But how much more there is for the serious Christian! How much more rewarding is the life of commitment and service a dedicated child of God may participate in…For surely the unknown tongue is the initial, audible evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

(in Hollenweger, The Pentecostals, 10).

But the case for regarding the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as synonymous with regeneration/conversion is, to my mind, more convincing.

To be “baptized in the Holy Spirit” is simply another way of saying “to receive the Holy Spirit.” If we want to use the expression “Spirit baptism,” we can use it only to describe the reception of the Holy Spirit which occurs when a person is born again. Neither the particular accounts referred to in Acts nor the total witness of the New Testament support the doctrine of Spirit baptism as a second stage of salvation in the sense of an anointing for service or as the real, empowering experience of the Spirit.

(Grossmann, Stewards of God’s grace, 77).

Grossmann lists lists ‘the main negative results of a doctrine and practice of Spirit baptism as a separate stage in the way of salvation.

Concentration on Spirit baptism easily detracts from the central importance of regeneration. Often the recognition of sin is lacking in depth, because the fundamental event of forgiveness of sins on the basis of a personal and total confession of sin does not have the central place in a person’s experience.
Becasue the experience of a later baptism in the Sprit often goes much deeper than the experience of being born again…the central significance of the fundamental Christian experience with its many aspects (forgiveness, power, confession) is transferred to the signs accompanying the experience of the Spirit. Assurance of salvation is therefore based no longer on the acceptance of forgiveness at regeneration, but on charismatic signs.
In Spirit baptism the experience of power and ability becomes the central experience, while the areas of self-recognition, acceptance of salvation, forgiveness of sins and confession become secondary…
The reception of the Spirit takes on the character of a universal remedy. Preachers are apt to suggest: “If only you experience the baptism of the Spirit and break out into speaking in tongues, all your other problems will be solved.” This is applied to the problem of illness, to other problems of life, to the problem of doubt and to faults of character.
Because Spirit baptism generally takes place at an emotional level, it can easily be imitated by experiences which involve purely human feelings.
Grossman, Stewards of God’s Grace, 81f.

J.I. Packer asks:-

What should we say…of the often-heard view, based on Acts 2, that God means every Christian’s life to be a two-stage, two-level affair, in which conversion is followed by a second event (called Spirit baptism on the basis of Acts 1:5 or Spirit filling on the basis of Acts 2:4), which raises one’s spiritual life to new heights? We should say that though individual Christians need, and again and again are given, “second touches” of this kind (and third, and fourth, and any number more), the idea that this is God’s programme for all Christians as such is mistaken. God means all Christians as such to enjoy the full inward blessing of Pentecost (not the outward trimmings necessarily, but the communion of heart with Christ and all that flows from it) right from the moment of their conversion.

(Keep in step with the Spirit, 91).

A widely-held non-Pentecostalist view is that held by John Stott and other ‘main-stream’ conservative evangelicals. According to this view, all believers have been ‘baptised’ with the Spirit at the moment of the new birth:-

The ‘baptism’ of the Spirit is identical with the ‘gift’ of the Spirit,…it is one of the distinctive blessings of the new convenant, and, because it is an initial blessing, is also a universal blessing for members of the covenant…So then, whatever post-conversion experiences there may be…’baptism with the Spirit’ cannot be the right expression to use for them.

“Baptism in the Holy Spirit” – a separate stage of salvation? – Walking With Giants

 

[Behold]

What people will surmise based on the decoy gospel....for those who don't love the truth... is that God wants to cover up YOUR sins with HIS righteousness.

Your theology just becomes more Cross denying the more you post it.

Listen, God does not "cover up" sins, with Jesus's Blood and Death.. He removes them, He purges them, He redeems them... He pays for them with the "one time ETERNAL Sacrifice of JESUS"...

See,... its your LIE that says that "The Cross is not about forgiveness", and that is an amazing blasphemy. @Episkopos, and you wear it well.

 

[Johann]

Your theology just becomes more Cross denying the more you post it.

Listen, God does not "cover up" sins, with Jesus's Blood and Death.. He removes them, He purges them, He redeems them... He pays for them with the "one time ETERNAL Sacrifice of JESUS"...

See,... its your LIE that says that "The Cross is not about forgiveness", and that is an amazing blasphemy. @Episkopos, and you wear it well.

Keep preaching it brother but-uh-with a bit more gentleness!
Shalom Achi
Shalom lekha ule-mishpachtekh!
Johann.

 

[Behold]

Keep preaching it brother but-uh-with a bit more gentleness!
Shalom Achi
Shalom lekha ule-mishpachtekh!
Johann.

I read very carefully HIS "Salvation Testimony" that he posted as per RitaJanice's request for it.

IN His Testimony regarding HIS "Salvation"...., there is no "forgiveness of His sin".. there is no "i trusted in Christ", and there is no "The Cross".... found anywhere.

So, : Final answer.

 

[Johann]

I read very carefully HIS "Salvation Testimony" that he posted as per RitaJanice's request for it.

IN His Testimony regarding HIS "Salvation"...., there is no "forgiveness of His sin".. there is no "i trusted in Christ", and there is no "The Cross".... found anywhere.

So, : Final answer.

No problem @Behold-
Have a blessed day.
Johann.

 

[Ritajanice]

You can’t trust in Christ without knowing him in your spirit.....you can certainly read about Jesus but to truly know all about Jesus, that can only come through heart/ spirit revelation.

It’s wonderful to know through God’s Living witness His Living Holy Spirit who testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children....

We know Jesus in our spirit and we are led through scripture by that Living witness who made our spirit Born Again....

That is the only way you can truly learn all about Jesus is by His Living Witness the Living Holy Spirit.

We must be Born Again, Born Of God’s seed that liveth and abideth forever, where?...in our hearts/ spirit that is where.

@Episkopos ...no one needs to look to any cross...we are brought to repentance/ Godly sorrow by the power of Gods Spirit, we must also have our sins forgiven before we can be Born Again, also we must believe in the Name of Jesus initially as God brings us to believe in the Name of Jesus...then I was gifted faith from God and my spirit was born again by Gods Living witness His Living Holy Spirit.

You can’t become Born Of God’s seed my friend, without God forgiving you of your sins...this is a Holy God we serve, his Spirit can’t indwell a sinner?

Our sins must be forgiven before Gods Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit can permanently indwell our spirit, when we are Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever....that seed liveth and abideth forever in our heart/ spirit.....nothing on the planet can separate us from the Love Of God His Living seed.

 

[Lizbeth]

It shall help thee greatly to understand Scripture
If thou mark not only WHAT is spoken
Or written
But of whom
And to whom
With what words
At what time
Where
To what intent
With what circumstances
Considering what goeth before
And what followeth after

Miles Coverdale-died in 1569.

I have highlighted that part for a reason @Lizbeth-you say the baptism in filling with the Holy Spirit is the same yet still want to make a distinction with the disciples, who later became the Apostles.


THE BELIEVER’S SPIRITUAL OBJECTIVE
The majority of believers are very much confused with regard to the Holy Spirit’s work in their lives and the exact extent to which they may expect His help in overcoming sin. This confusion has been brought about mainly by the unscriptural tradition that the present dispensation began with the pouring out of the Spirit at Pentecost. A further word in this connection will therefore be necessary.

Those who hold that Pentecost marks the beginning of the present dispensation should examine carefully those Scriptures which deal with the Holy Spirit and His work. A simple comparison, for example, of His operation at Pentecost with His operation today, as outlined in the Pauline epistles, can lead to but one conclusion: that the baptism with, or in, the Spirit at Pentecost has been superseded by another baptism altogether—that by which believers are baptized into one body—and that the Body of Christ did not exist (except in the mind of God) when the Spirit was poured out at Pentecost.

If our Fundamentalist leaders will verify and accept this fact, they will have the answer to the “Pentecostal” fanaticism that is sweeping the country today.

THE SPIRIT’S OPERATION AT PENTECOST
Concerning the one hundred twenty believers gathered in the upper room at Pentecost, we read:

“And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:4, R.V.).

This, of course, is another way of saying that the Holy Spirit took complete possession of them.1 Those who have come to appreciate the meaning of the Bible word baptism, will see at once the connection with the Lord’s promise that His own should be baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5). Indeed, they were “filled” with the Spirit (Acts 2:4) in fulfillment of the promise that they should be “baptized” with the Spirit.

And the result of this baptism, this filling, with the Spirit, was not only that they possessed miraculous powers, but also that they lived the kind of lives which God’s people prior to that time had failed to live, and this is the particular matter with which we are here concerned.

Mark well: in Acts 2:4 we do not have an exhortation to be filled with the Spirit, as we have later in the Pauline epistles. Rather, we have a simple statement of fact: “They were all filled with the Holy Spirit.”

The one hundred twenty had, of course, been much like any other group of believers in history. They had not all been equally spiritual or devoted or faithful. Some had been more so than others, and where some had excelled in one virtue, others had excelled in another. Yet now they were all FILLED with the Spirit, from the least to the greatest of them.

The thoughtful student of Scripture will, of course, ask why all these believers were now filled with the Holy Spirit. Was it, perhaps, because they, as a group, had been more godly than those before them? The gospel records prove that this is not so.

Peter boasted, Thomas doubted, James and John sought personal gain, and when our Lord was taken prisoner, “they all forsook Him and fled.” Was it then because they had prayed long enough or earnestly enough for the Spirit to come upon them and take control? No; they had been instructed to go to Jerusalem, not to pray for the Holy Spirit to come, as some suppose, but to “wait for the [fulfillment of the] promise” regarding the Spirit (Acts 1:4,5)—and right here is the answer to our question.

The believers at Pentecost were filled with the Holy Spirit, not because they had prayed long or earnestly enough for the Spirit to come, but because the time had arrived for the fulfillment2 of the divine promise. The Old Testament prophets and the Lord Jesus had promised that the Holy Spirit should some day come to take control of God’s people, and that day had come. They were filled with the Spirit because God, according to His promise, had baptized them with the Spirit.

The Filling With The Spirit

THE BELIEVER'S SPIRITUAL OBJECTIVE The majority of believers are very much confused with regard to the Holy Spirit's work in their lives and the exact extent to which they may expect His help in overcoming sin. This confusion has been brought about mainly by the unscriptural tradition that the pres

bereanbiblesociety.org

Now I am going to ask you again to open the link-no need to feel led to do so-and read for yourself, and then come back and we can discuss.

Thanks
Johann

All who are disciples will follow the same path. But not all who follow Jesus (disciples) are called to be apostles. Can't help but feel how forsaken the early believers must have felt for those ten days with Jesus gone and without the Help and Comfort of the Holy Spirit in
power. Reminds me of Jesus on the cross feeling forsaken even though He wasn't truly forsaken...it's like the Father had to look away just long enough for Jesus to die. (Don't know for sure but the ten days of tribulation in Rev might be alluding to this period in the life of a believer, and the ten days prior to the Day of Atonement.)

I wouldn't say the church age began with the pouring out of the Holy Spirit per se but with the coming of Christ and especially His death and resurrection. Although since it is the new covenant this is really talking about, maybe we would have to say it began with His death/resurrection specifically. Though I'm not sure it's something we should wrangle about as far as I know ...? At least I've never thought to pin it down. There are transition periods in the ways of the Lord ....like how the old covenant was only "fading away" for that whole generation of Jews....transition period until 70 AD.

No the first disciples were certainly not perfect....no old or new testament saint was, and the Lord wasn't shy to record some of their stumbles and foibles, for our edification and encouragement. But think we must agree those stumbling bumbling disciples (no disrespect intended) did change a lot after Pentecost. I mean, just read their letters and discern. 4 cylinders to 8! No more stumbling bumbling (or much less at least) because now they had wings.

 

[Johann]

you can certainly read about Jesus but to truly know all about Jesus, that can only come through heart/ spirit revelation.

Incorrect-you have a very low view of Scripture--


Jesus reveals himself to believers through the Scriptures in several profound ways:

Messiah and Savior: Throughout the Old Testament (Tanakh), Jesus is foreshadowed and prophesied as the promised Messiah who would come to save humanity. The New Testament (especially the Gospels) then reveals how Jesus fulfills these Messianic prophecies.

Word Incarnate: In the Gospel of John, Jesus is presented as the Word (Logos) who was with God in the beginning and who became flesh (John 1:1-14). The Scriptures testify to Jesus as the incarnate Son of God who came to reveal the Father's love and bring salvation.

Teaching and Wisdom: Jesus' teachings and parables recorded in the Gospels reveal his divine wisdom and offer guidance for living a life that pleases God. His Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) and other teachings provide timeless principles for ethical living and spiritual growth.

Miracles and Signs: The miracles and signs performed by Jesus, as recorded in the Gospels, demonstrate his divine authority over nature, sickness, and even death. These miracles reveal his compassion for the suffering and his power to bring about transformation.

Redemption and Atonement: The New Testament epistles, especially those written by Paul and the author of Hebrews, explain how Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross fulfilled the Old Testament sacrificial system and provided redemption and atonement for sinners. The Scriptures testify to Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29).

Resurrection and Victory: The resurrection of Jesus from the dead, as recorded in all four Gospels and explained in the epistles, is a central event that confirms Jesus' victory over sin and death. The Scriptures reveal Jesus as the risen Lord who offers eternal life to all who believe in him.

To encounter Jesus in the Scriptures, it is essential to approach them with an open heart, seeking to understand how each passage points to him and his redemptive work. Prayerful reflection, study, and guidance from the Holy Spirit can deepen one's understanding of Jesus' presence and message throughout the Bible.

"the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes" is found in Romans 1:16, where the apostle Paul expresses the transformative power of the gospel message.

Here are key points related to salvation according to the Scriptures:

Gospel Message: The central message of the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, is the gospel—the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. This salvation is offered freely to all who believe in Jesus as the Son of God and Savior.

Faith in Jesus: Salvation is obtained through faith in Jesus Christ. This faith involves acknowledging Jesus as Lord, repenting of sins, and trusting in his sacrificial death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9-10).

Grace and Mercy: Salvation is not earned through good works or personal merit but is a gift of God's grace. Ephesians 2:8-9 states, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Transformation: Salvation involves a transformation of the heart and life through the work of the Holy Spirit. Believers are called to live in accordance with God's will, growing in holiness and obedience to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:22-24).

Universal Offer: The gospel message is for everyone without distinction. Romans 10:12-13 declares, "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'"

Scriptural Authority: The Scriptures themselves testify to their authority in matters of faith and salvation. They are inspired by God and are profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).

Therefore, the Scriptures affirm that salvation is possible through faith in Jesus Christ alone, and they provide the foundation and guidance for understanding God's plan of redemption and living out the Christian faith. As individuals believe in and accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, they receive forgiveness of sins and the gift of eternal life, according to God's gracious and loving plan revealed in the Scriptures.

 

[Hepzibah]

Yes, just one question, so we are AS holy as God in Christ is, the old man, passions and lusts somehow surgically removed and no need for us to die to it, instant sanctification-correct?

The writings of the early church is rather lengthy

" and he says of a holy man: But ye are sanctified, for he who has come to this state is in a condition to be holy, falling in none of the passions in any way, but as it were separated and already grown holy without this earth."

Sounds like the Monks and Wesleyan movement-no offense.

Johann..

The early church understanding is, that we get to share in God's energies, but not His essence, if we are willing/consent to see our old man as crucified. This does not happen when we first encounter Christ as have not yet experienced just how unable we are to keep His commandments so that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can take place as shown throughout the OT, He cannot dwell where there is sin.

There is an initial work where we commit ourselves, but after this there is Purification, where the Holy Spirit gradually convicts us and we respond to Him if our hearts are open, by a longing for holiness until we reach the stage of absolute desperation for the cleansing (oh wretched man). This is the wilderness. If we continue to seek with our whole heart, we will now receive Illumination such as when the chosen disciples had revealed to them the glory of Christ. Then we walk in a new way, able to avoid intentional sin but still slipping up till we are baptized in the Spirit and made holy as He is holy, without sin.

This teaching did get across to the west unscathed, and has been greatly misunderstood by the Holiness Movement in the US and then in the other parts of the world in the west. It accepted a 'second blessing' but according to the early church, that was just Illumination and still some way to go to be holy as He is holy.

One misconception is that when we reach that stage we cannot fall from it but many say yes you can. However, according to Hebrews, it is impossible for man to be restored. God can do it though. There is some confusion over water baptism.

In the EO church, the adults who were water baptized had hands laid on them to receive the Spirit baptism at he same time. So yes to Wesley but it soon got tangled up in Pentecostalism and the belief in 'tongues'. Gradually the Holiness Pentecostals have turned into the Finished Work Pentecostals (Spirit baptism at conversion) as less and less of them were having a second experience. This experience is nothing like the real thing that brings holiness and is a fake Spirit baptism.

It is a subject that is full of error which you would expect from Satan as a man in Theosis is his great enemy apart from God. Any sin in a man gives Satan a foothold in him.

After Thesosis though we must watch and be wary of not falling back and depending on human flesh again, that is to say, to use our own understanding of things and not see it though the eyes of the Spirit. If we do that it will lead to sin and we will fall.

 

[Johann]

All who are disciples will follow the same path. But not all who follow Jesus (disciples) are called to be apostles. Can't help but feel how forsaken the early believers must have felt for those ten days with Jesus gone and without the Help and Comfort of the Holy Spirit in
power. Reminds me of Jesus on the cross feeling forsaken even though He wasn't truly forsaken...it's like the Father had to look away just long enough for Jesus to die. (Don't know for sure but the ten days of tribulation in Rev might be alluding to this period in the life of a believer, and the ten days prior to the Day of Atonement.)

I wouldn't say the church age began with the pouring out of the Holy Spirit per se but with the coming of Christ and especially His death and resurrection. Although since it is the new covenant this is really talking about, maybe we would have to say it began with His death/resurrection specifically. Though I'm not sure it's something we should wrangle about as far as I know ...? At least I've never thought to pin it down. There are transition periods in the ways of the Lord ....like how the old covenant was only "fading away" for that whole generation of Jews....transition period until 70 AD.

No the first disciples were certainly not perfect....no old or new testament saint was, and the Lord wasn't shy to record some of their stumbles and foibles, for our edification and encouragement. But think we must agree those stumbling bumbling disciples (no disrespect intended) did change a lot after Pentecost. I mean, just read their letters and discern. 4 cylinders to 8! No more stumbling bumbling (or much less at least) because now they had wings.

@Lizbeth dear sister-the reason why there is a miscommunication and misunderstanding between us is that I have to read through this, not really comprehendo what you are trying to convey or communicate to me, we are talking past each other and not WITH each other.
Hence the reason why I communicate with Scriptures and use "Biblianeze" terminologies and I have already posted two other posts on the Baptism and filling of the Ruach HaKodesh.

Have you open the link I have given you? Virus free and choc full of Scriptures with sound exegesis?
My apologies for coming across as harsh, angry with you-I am not.
Shalom
Johann.

 

[Hepzibah]

A lot of confusion is caused because believers have that first encounter with Christ, think they are saved (when biblically it means saved from sin and not just the guilt or penalty). They assume all of the scriptures that only apply to those who are granted the true union with Christ and argue endlessly against anything further to obtain. Yet this was the teaching of the early church, so much so that it was assumed in the writings that one knew about it without laying it out.