Deconstruction Part 2: Into Apostolicity

[Lizbeth]

Maybe another miscommunication but are you saying I am taking pages and pages and pages to reason the "still, small voice" away?

Tell me, do you think I'm prideful, full of self?

As for this, I don't put Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit in a box but should you find a healer or a worker of miracles please give him Justin Peters number, he is wheelchair bound, and make him walk and then have him go to the nearest hospital-lots of sick folk there.
If he can't he is a pseudo prophet or apostle-and the just shall live by faith, not signs and wonders!

And I do believe we all should get a firm handle on our emotions.
Shalom to you and family.
Johann.

Not specifically, but reasoning away the many passages of scripture that talk about miracles and spiritual gifts, which would include hearing from the Lord. I could give you so many testimonies over the course of my life and it has all borne good fruit. And none of it has led me astray or into anything quirky, on the contrary. We are to live by faith, not signs and wonders....yes I agree, but faith also means there will be signs and wonders at times, according to the will of God and according to how He has gifted each one.

Recently the Lord showed me that the ruling spirit of the Catholic church is unequivocally not the Holy Spirit but another spirit. It came like a very strong download that temporarily short-circuited my carnal brain. He opened my eyes to understand and see how mixture is unequivocally pagan.....RCC is unequivocally pagan and Talmudic Judaism is also. This was to strengthen and safeguard me, and I assume to share with others who might need to be safeguarded as well. It is according to the scripture that says no man can serve two masters.....and the one that speaks of halting between two opinions...trying to serve God and Baal at the same time...mixture......means one is not serving God period. We must have nothing to do with the Temple in Jerusalem when it is built...there will be a very strong and seductive deception associated with it. We're not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers....and who has not the Son has not the Father either. You go ahead and test and weigh that brother. There are many protestant evangelicals who are "softening" in their stance regarding the Catholic church and Hebrew roots people who are likewise being unequally yoked with unbelieving Jews/Israel.

 

[Johann]

1 Peter 1:13-16 KJV
13) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14) As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16) Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

The Greek word στοιχέω (stoicheō) or its various forms appear several times in the New Testament. It generally means "to walk" or "to walk in line," and figuratively it can mean "to conduct oneself," "to live," or "to follow a course."

Here are the occurrences of στοιχέω (stoicheō) in the New Testament:

Galatians 5:25 - "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." (στοιχῶμεν, stoichōmen)

Transliteration: stoichōmen
Morphology: V-PSA-1P
Verb - Present Subjunctive Active - 1st Person Plural
Strong's no.: G4748 (στοιχέω)
Meaning: To walk in, walk by.

stoicheó G4748 [to be in a series, be in step with],
systoicheó G4960 [to be in a series, correspond],
stoicheion G4747 [elements, elemental substances]

Thayer Definition:
1) to proceed in a row as the march of a soldier, go in order
1a) metaphorically to go on prosperously, to turn out well
2) to walk
2a) to direct one’s life, to live
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of steicho (to range in regular line)

stoicheo .
1. Outside the NT This verb means "to belong to a series," "to be in rank," or, transferred, "to be in agreement," "to come to an agreement," "to remain in agreement"
2. The NT In the NT the word is often taken to have the sense "to walk" (perhaps on the basis of "to be in step with"), but in all the instances it can have the usual sense. Thus in Act_21:24 the point is to be in the ranks of those who keep the law, in Php_3:16 Paul wants his readers to remain in the same thing, in Gal_6:16 agreement with the rule is at issue, in Rom_4:12 keeping step is in view, and in Gal_5:25 the Christian life is one of harmony with the Spirit.
3. The Early Church. The saying in Mart. Po. 22.1 stresses the importance of harmony with the word of Christ, and Clement of Alexandria Stromateis 3.66.1 echoes Gal_6:16.
systoicheo. Giving emphasis to the simple form, this compound means "to be in a series with," "to be in the same ranks" Gal_4:25 presupposes two antithetical series of concepts: two women, two covenants, Mt Sinai, and the two Jerusalems. Having equated Hagar with Mt Sinai, Paul then says that she is in the same series with (i.e., corresponds to) the earthly Jerusalem.
A. Outside the NT.
1. A first meaning of stoicheion is the "length of a shadow" in calculating time.
2. Another use is for a syllable, i.e., a sound as part of a word, then a basic word. Vowels have special importance, and letters understood as sounds play a special role in some circles.
3. Cosmologically the stoicheia are the four elements, Plato's original constituents of the world, the four elements of Stoicism in distinction from the eternal and imperishable archai, the elements which form a basis of brotherhood in Alexandrian Judaism. The use of religious terms tends to divinize the elements, so that in early Christian works (cf. Aristides or Clement of Alexandria) their autonomy is resisted and stress is laid on their creation and their subservience to the logos .
4. Other uses of the word are for the notes of music, for the number one in mathematics, for what is primary, e.g., in education, for first principles, e.g., in geometry or logic, and for the factors which are basic phenomena in dreams.
5. In philosophy, Gnostic speculation, and astrology the stars take on importance as stoicheia, whether as visible gods, as creatures that influence earthly events, as features on the heavenly journey, or as bodies that declare the will of the gods.
6. The use of stoicheion alongside daιmon and pneuma shows that the idea of "stellar spirits" is present.
B. The NT.
1. In Gal_4:3; Col_2:8; Col_2:20 we find the phrase stoicheia tou kosmou (and cf. Gal_4:9). Outside the NT the term would denote the four elements or the basic materials of the world of which the whole cosmos, and humanity within it, is composed. Only the context can yield any other sense.
2. Gal_4:3 ff., however, seems to number the law among the stoicheia, and 4:8-9 seems to include false gods. These references rule out such senses as the cosmic elements, the stars, stellar spirits, or simply spiritual forces. Building on thoughts of his age, Paul is using the term in a new way, describing the stoicheia as weak and beggarly. In a transferred sense, the stoicheia are the things on which pre-Christian existence rests, especially in pre-Christian religion. These things are impotent; they bring bondage instead of freedom.
3. In Col_2:6 ff. the stoicheia tou kosmou are parallel to the paradosis ton anthropon (v. 8). Religious ordinances (2:20) are inadequate as a basis of human existence. It is a delusion for Christians to think that such things can sustain them. By dying and rising again with Christ they are freed from this delusion and the bondage it entails.
4. In 2Pe_3:10; 2Pe_3:12 the reference has to be to the elements (or just possibly the stars). The use of terms and the idea of a final conflagration strongly support "elerents" as the true rendering. As v. 12 points out, both the higher and lower elements will be destroyed, including the earth and all its works.
5. The meaning in Heb_5:12 is obviously "rudiments" or "first principles," with a slightly derogatory nuance in context.
[G. DELLING]


stoicheo (G4748), from stoichos, "a row," signifies "to walk in line," and is used metaphorically of "walking" in relation to others (No. 1 is used more especially of the individual walk); in Act_21:24, it is translated "walkest orderly"; in Rom_4:12, "walk (in... steps)"; in Gal_5:25 it is used of walking "by the Spirit," RV, in an exhortation to keep step with one another in submission of heart to the Holy Spirit, and therefore of keeping step with Christ, the great means of unity and harmony in a church (contrast No. 1 in Gal_5:16; Gal_5:25 begins a new section which extends to Gal_6:10); in Gal_6:16 it is used of walking by the rule expressed in Gal_6:14-15; in Php_3:16 the reference is to the course pursued by the believer who makes "the prize of the high calling" the object of his ambition. In the Sept., Ecc_1:16.
Vine's NT

Romans 4:12 - "Who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham." (στοιχοῦσιν, stoichousin)

Philippians 3:16 - "Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing." (στοιχεῖν, stoichein)

Philippians 3:16 - "And if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (στοιχήσομεν, stoichēsomen)

This is all I have on the word @marks -maybe you have something more?

 

[marks]

This is all I have on the word @marks -maybe you have something more?

I'll need some time . . . Great stuff!

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Not specifically, but reasoning away the many passages of scripture that talk about miracles and spiritual gifts, which would include hearing from the Lord. I could give you so many testimonies over the course of my life and it has all borne good fruit. And none of it has led me astray or into anything quirky, on the contrary. We are to live by faith, not signs and wonders....yes I agree, but faith also means there will be signs and wonders at times, according to the will of God and according to how He has gifted each one.

Recently the Lord showed me that the ruling spirit of the Catholic church is unequivocally not the Holy Spirit but another spirit. It came like a very strong download that temporarily short-circuited my carnal brain. He opened my eyes to understand and see how mixture is unequivocally pagan.....RCC is unequivocally pagan and Talmudic Judaism is also. This was to strengthen and safeguard me, and I assume to share with others who might need to be safeguarded as well. It is according to the scripture that says no man can serve two masters.....and the one that speaks of halting between two opinions...trying to serve God and Baal at the same time...mixture......means one is not serving God period. We must have nothing to do with the Temple in Jerusalem when it is built...there will be a very strong and seductive deception associated with it. We're not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers....and who has not the Son has not the Father either. You go ahead and test and weigh that brother. There are many protestant evangelicals who are "softening" in their stance regarding the Catholic church and Hebrew roots people who are likewise being unequally yoked with unbelieving Jews/Israel.

We can go much, much deeper into this but what you have said would suffice.
Shalom
Johann

 

[Johann]

I'll need some time . . . Great stuff!

Much love!

Please let me know if you have more info on this, would be greatly appreciated marks.
Johann.

 

[Lizbeth]

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1John 1:8.

As we know, good exegesis consists of using the inductive method, in taking many scriptures, and deriving a general conclusion from them. ‘The number, clarity and relevance of those many passages is crucial to the theological conclusions drawn. Building a doctrine on only one or two verses or passages which are unclear or not directly related to the issue, compromises the conclusion.’ (Olson: Beyond Calvinism and Arminianism, Introduction p4).

In the same letter we read:

He that commiteth sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8.

Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not, whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him neither known Him John 3:6

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin 1 John 3:9

He that abideth in Him ought himself also to walk, as even as He walked 1 John 2:6

He that saith I know Him and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him. 1John 2:4

Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

My little children, these things I write to you that you sin not. 1 John 2:1

John’s first letter was written to counteract the heresy which was affecting the church and was a treatise for Christians in general as there is no mention of a specific church as was contended by Lampe in his appeal to Theodoret.

The apostle is declaring to the whole world, his disapprobation of the doctrines maintained by the early or proto Gnostics who taught that Jesus was by birth a mere man but that 'the Christ' descended on Him at His baptism.’ These Gnostics, who taught that man could be righteous in spirit and still sin in the flesh, contended that the apostles had added commandments not given by Christ concerning the doctrine of sanctification. John devotes the greatest part of his epistle to the confirmation and enforcement of his doctrine.

We see that John is describing a process whereby we can test ourselves to see if we are in the true Light whereby the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin, and pointing out where the early Gnostic idea has been creeping in:

1:7 if we say we have no sin (as in Gnosticism, my insert) we deceive ourselves 1:8 but if we confess our sin, He will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Here John shows where the deceivers depart from the truth. Their teaching was that they had no need of this cleansing, as they did not consider immoral actions as sin due to matter being evil which was escaped through having ‘special’ knowledge and not in keeping God’s law. They maintained that a child of God could still sin and continue to have fellowship with God, a concept which was known as ‘spirit salvation’.

The early fathers on the other hand, taught that we must at least be on the road to theosis or union with Christ and this starts with Purification, or knowledge of the sin within, with the desire that we will be cleansed from all sin not that it might remain within. We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness that is, walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two different opposing state which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about the 'carnal' or fleshy, against those who were walking in the Spirit.

In verses 7 and 9, John says that the benefit of walking in the light are:-

1)We have fellowship with one another in the unity of the Spirit (agreement)

2)By confessing our sins we will be forgiven

3)We will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness and sin.

Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-

1)We are deceived and remain in our sin

2)There is no truth in us

3)We make God a liar by denying our need for cleansing from all sin.

So John is saying that it is only when we are walking in the darkness that we are blind to our need of coming to Christ for His cleansing from all sin. The letter is to believers and not unbelievers. And believers can fall into the error of walking in the flesh as Paul demonstrated to the Galatians who thought that they could go on to maturity or perfection through the works of the law and not through faith.

Those who were being misled by the Gnosticism and today by the preachers of 'positional righteousness' were walking in darkness because they were still sinning and did not see their need of the cleansing which can be provided by Christ alone. So they thought that they had no sin to be dealt with and were acceptable as they were to be in fellowship with Christ, but John says that they walk in darkness. But if we see our need for cleansing from all sin and come to Christ then He will be able to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So it is these ones who are saying wrongly that they have no sin not the ones who have come to Christ and have been cleansed from all unrighteousness and are in union with Christ, or in the state of theosis.

Sister, I'm just hopeless at keeping up with the more intellectual and scholarly side of everything that is being discussed. I generally have to simplify and whittle things down to be able to make sense of them...it's just the way I am, though I appreciate that there are those who can discuss things on that level with others who are gifted like that. Is it is possible that John could have been talking about those who "keep on committing sin" wilfully, as a lifestyle, rather than those who might stumble inadvertently from time to time (without wanting to, and being penitent when we do). Because he also wrote that if we say we "have" no sin the truth is not in us. He also wrote in 1 John I think it is, that "we offend in many ways all".

I don't dispute that we need to SEEK to be cleansed from all sin - to be fully sanctified. But I'm not convinced that means to literally be "without sin" like Jesus was (unless I misunderstood what was being said about that)....but could it mean to be walking in complete victory over our sin/iniquity, having been thus separated from our old nature, even though we kind of still cart it around in our flesh while we are alive..? The flesh is dead because of sin....but we still have to live in our bodies of flesh until the end of our lives.

 

[Johann]

Sister, I'm just hopeless at keeping up with the more intellectual and scholarly side of everything that is being discussed. I generally have to simplify and whittle things down to be able to make sense of them...it's just the way I am, though I appreciate that there are those who can discuss things on that level with others who are gifted like that. Is it is possible that John could have been talking about those who "keep on committing sin" wilfully, as a lifestyle, rather than those who might stumble inadvertently from time to time (without wanting to, and being penitent when we do). Because he also wrote that if we say we "have" no sin the truth is not in us. He also wrote in 1 John I think it is, that "we offend in many ways all".

I don't dispute that we need to SEEK to be cleansed from all sin - to be fully sanctified. But I'm not convinced that means to literally be "without sin" like Jesus was (unless I misunderstood what was being said about that)....but could it mean to be walking in complete victory over our sin/iniquity, having been thus separated from our old nature, even though we kind of still cart it around in our flesh while we are alive..? The flesh is dead because of sin....but we still have to live in our bodies of flesh until the end of our lives.

Wholeheartedly in agreement with you here.

SINS OF OMISSION AND COMMISSION IN THE BIBLE

See 'Sins Of Omission And Commission' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

And I'm sorry you have a "offish" kind of day, I have them everyday!
Johann.
This is "Rapid fire ministry" sister.

 

[Hepzibah]

Sister, I'm just hopeless at keeping up with the more intellectual and scholarly side of everything that is being discussed. I generally have to simplify and whittle things down to be able to make sense of them...it's just the way I am, though I appreciate that there are those who can discuss things on that level with others who are gifted like that. Is it is possible that John could have been talking about those who "keep on committing sin" wilfully, as a lifestyle, rather than those who might stumble inadvertently from time to time (without wanting to, and being penitent when we do). Because he also wrote that if we say we "have" no sin the truth is not in us. He also wrote in 1 John I think it is, that "we offend in many ways all".

I don't dispute that we need to SEEK to be cleansed from all sin - to be fully sanctified. But I'm not convinced that means to literally be "without sin" like Jesus was (unless I misunderstood what was being said about that)....but could it mean to be walking in complete victory over our sin/iniquity, having been thus separated from our old nature, even though we kind of still cart it around in our flesh while we are alive..? The flesh is dead because of sin....but we still have to live in our bodies of flesh until the end of our lives.

Dear sister, there is nothing to feel hopeless about, regarding intellectual skills. We are not judged on those but on whether we obeyed Christ. The devil is far more clever and intellectual than any of us but does not make the grade. Intelligence is what we are born with, and we are to thank God for all things He has given us. I am sure that He has given you other gifts.

Don't forget Jesus chose simple fishermen. The west has placed far too much importance on intellect. Our heads are just one part of us.

When there is a question like the one you posed, I always ask myself, which one would Satan gain by? Obviously if God requires holiness in us it would be the belief that John is talking about a lifestyle. to keep people out of the kingdom. I believe that adding the word 'lifestyle' is adding to the clear word of God.

If we look at the first of the ten commandments and therefore the most important one, 'thou shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart should and mind' if we can honestly say no we do not, then is that is an occasional sin? How many can say that since they first believed, they have not fallen from that love?

We must take the whole of the scripture into account and not focus on one thing or another. There are a few texts that seem to back up your view, but as the post I put up showed, on 1John, it is taking that verse out of context when there are far more in the letter that say if you sin you are of the devil. It is such a serious matter.

However God can give the power for us to be returned to the state in which He first created man. Sister it would help you to read the testimonies of those who have claimed to be entirely sanctified in the past (now rare).

Entry Directions for the Faithful

The plain words are that the old nature in us has been crucified (after we 'know this' and reckon) not that it is dragged around. Our bodies are not our old nature.

 

[Lizbeth]

Dear sister, there is nothing to feel hopeless about, regarding intellectual skills. We are not judged on those but on whether we obeyed Christ. The devil is far more clever and intellectual than any of us but does not make the grade. Intelligence is what we are born with, and we are to thank God for all things He has given us. I am sure that He has given you other gifts.

Don't forget Jesus chose simple fishermen. The west has placed far too much importance on intellect. Our heads are just one part of us.

Thanks for that, and I agree completely.....just frustrating and makes me anxious at times especially because of how aging is affecting me. (Though I believe and hope that through it I can learn to rely on the Lord more.) And I've never studied church history and early church "fathers" or even the leaders of the Reformation etc....it's late in the day for me to try and catch up with all that now, I get overwhelmed.

As for the rest, I believe we are to take it seriously, but also it seems to be a kind of two-sided coin when we look at all the scriptures together. Fully believe there is grace for us while we are learning and growing. Jesus said to Peter, get thee behind me Satan.......yet we can see Peter wasn't being condemned in the ultimate sense.

I have a question for you or anyone who wants to answer....is being fully sanctified only a temporary thing that people can move in and out of? To me that is like after growing up into adulthood, a person could literally regress into adolescence or childhood...it doesn't seem like a likely thing, or something that would happen easily. I just wonder if some may be given "tastes" of being fully sanctified along the way to encourage them onward, though am not sure how to think of it.

 

[Johann]

I have a question for you or anyone who wants to answer....is being fully sanctified only a temporary thing that people can move in and out of? To me that is like after growing up into adulthood, a person could literally regress into adolescence or childhood...it doesn't seem like a likely thing, or something that would happen easily. I just wonder if some may be given "tastes" of being fully sanctified along the way to encourage them onward,

@Lizbeth
The concept of being fully sanctified, or experiencing complete sanctification, is understood in different ways within Christian theology. Here are some perspectives:

Wesleyan-Holiness Perspective: In Wesleyan theology, sanctification is seen as a process that can culminate in a state of "entire sanctification" or "Christian perfection." This is believed to be a work of God's grace where the believer is cleansed from original sin and empowered to live a life fully dedicated to God's will. However, it's acknowledged that this state does not mean perfection in the sense of never sinning again, but rather a perfection in love and devotion to God.

Reformed Perspective: In Reformed theology, sanctification is often viewed as a progressive work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, whereby they grow in holiness over time. There isn't typically an emphasis on a distinct state of entire sanctification as in Wesleyan theology, but rather an ongoing process of becoming more like Christ.

Scriptural Basis: Scripture portrays sanctification as both a definitive act (where believers are set apart for God's purposes at conversion) and a progressive process (where believers grow in holiness over their lifetime). Verses like Hebrews 10:14 ("For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified") emphasize both the definitive aspect (perfected for all time through Christ's sacrifice) and the ongoing process (those who are being sanctified).

In light of these perspectives, the idea of being fully sanctified can be understood as an initial dedication to God's service at conversion and a continual process of growing in holiness throughout one's life. While some theological traditions believe in a distinct moment of entire sanctification, it's generally understood that sanctification involves both moments of dedication and ongoing growth, rather than something that can be lost and regained like a temporary state.

Leviticus 20:7 - "Consecrate yourselves, therefore, and be holy, for I am the Lord your God."

The Hebrew word used here is "qadash," which means to sanctify or set apart for sacred use.
John 17:17 - "Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth."

The Greek word used is "hagiazo," which means to make holy or consecrate.
Hebrews 10:10 - "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Again, the Greek word used is "hagiazo," which means to make holy or set apart.
1 Peter 3:15 - "But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect."

Here, "sanctify" is not used directly, but the concept of treating Christ as holy or setting him apart (hagiazo) is implied.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 - "Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The Greek word used is "hagiazo," indicating God's action of making believers holy or setting them apart completely.
In these examples, the word "sanctify" (or its equivalents) does not mean believers are being made holy in the sense of becoming inherently holy by their own efforts. Rather, it refers to the action of God through Christ's sacrifice or the believer's dedication to God's truth and holiness. It's important to clarify that sanctification in Christian theology is often understood as a process where believers are set apart for God's purposes and enabled to live according to his will, rather than a process of becoming inherently holy by their own works.

Johann.

 

[Ritajanice]

Commentary.

Sanctification (or in its verb form, sanctify) literally means "to set apart for special use or purpose", that is, to make holy or sacred (compare Latin: sanctus). Therefore, sanctification refers to the state or process of being set apart, i.e. "made holy", as a vessel, full of the Holy Spirit of God.


A Born Again is being made into the image of Jesus....plus they will bear his fruit, the power is within their spirit, the Holy Spirit indwells His Spirit child permanently......they are no longer of this world...they belong to God and he can use them however is pleasing to Him.

They have nowhere to go....only to the Father.....he owns their spirit lock, stock and barrel....they were predestined to become Born Of The Spirit....my opinion/ testimony and belief.100%.

Just as Jesus was predestined to do the will of the Father....so to are the Born Again.

 

[Episkopos]

is being fully sanctified only a temporary thing that people can move in and out of?

By its very essence holiness is an eternal thing. If it is temporary for us it is because our faith hope and love is still at an infant stage. We can only grow into Christ-likeness by walking in His perfection...His keeping power.

There is a folly in the idea that we can grow into holiness...that we learn holiness. This is due to the lack of understanding of either righteous or holiness. Holiness is always in God's presence. Holiness is about LOCATION...seated in heavenly places with God IN Christ.

We in the West live from our excess...so we have no idea what it means to seek God with a whole heart. But only that level from us...ALL...unleashes the ALL from God. And how could it be any other way? Does God pamper our flesh? Only the heavily (not heavenly) indoctrinated could believe such a thing.

We remain in holiness by God's keeping power...like fridge magnet to a fridge. Until the cares of this world overcome that sticking power and we fall from grace. Saints will fall out of the Spirit as part of their holiness training...underestimating the cost of holiness...both from the sacrifice of Jesus...to what it takes for us to continue in holiness in forsaking this world and giving up our own lives in the same way that Jesus did.

So we learn to be self-less and sacrificial by that training.

Do we want to go back into the training...back into holiness...once we have failed grace? A saint will persists and go through the cross into Romans 8. And fight the good fight on that level...much wiser than before.

Some people, like me, are slower to learn. :) I have fallen out twice now. The first time out of sheer ignorance and selfishness...not wanting to depart from my "humanity". That was not by a lack of faith, but a lack of love for God. The second time I didn't want to come out...having lasted 2.5 years or so. I was tempted away by listening to a man , a believer (and a professional salesman), who convinced me that I was wrong about something important. What I took from him as being from God, was a spiritual test that I then failed. Like the young man who was convinced by "another prophet" that he could eat...when God told him not to...so he was eaten by a lion.

The superficial understanding of the modern church can't fathom this deeper training.

Will I return to the heavenly abiding in Christ? Well, I'm not dead yet.

 

[Johann]

By its very essence holiness is an eternal thing. If it is temporary for us it is because our faith hope and love is still at an infant stage. We can only grow into Christ-likeness by walking in His perfection...His keeping power.

You are building on the wrong foundation-

Should Christians Seek Holiness in the Second Blessing?

No doubt, you have heard a “Holiness” sermon preached from Hebrews 12:14. Generally the preacher changes the verse and reads his text thus: “Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.” This is the equivalent of saying, “Without Christ, no man shall see the Lord.” God very clearly shows us that He

bereanbiblesociety.org

Every regenerated man is a redeemed man. Every redeemed man has had imputed to him the righteousness of God. Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. I John 5:1. No man is born of God because he is holy.

The believer is born of God because he believes something very definite. He believes that Jesus Christ, who knew no sin, was made sin in his behalf when He died on the cross of Calvary. And God says, ‘‘With the heart man believeth unto righteousness.” It is also true that with the heart man believeth unto regeneration; or man believeth unto redemption. It is likewise true that with the heart man believeth unto holiness. T

There are some who would lead us to believe that holiness means sinless perfection; that is, that the Christian should be not only perfect in his standing before God, but perfect in his conduct or state. “Hagiasmos” is the Greek word translated, sometimes, “holiness;” sometimes, “sanctification;” the same Greek word. Just as the same Greek word—the adjective—is sometimes translated “sanctified,” sometimes translated, “holy.”

In I Corinthians 7:14, we read, “The unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband.” Certainly this does not mean that the unbelieving husband or the unbelieving wife is without sin. Christ was led by Satan to the holy temple in the holy city. He was taken to Jerusalem. Jerusalem was called by God, “The Holy City,” that is, “The Sanctified city.” Most assuredly, that did not mean that Jerusalem was without sin; for in the Book of Revelation, Jerusalem is called “Sodom,” because of the great sin of that city.

Now let us read concerning the sanctified Corinthians, in I Corinthians 6:11: “Ye are washed, but ye are sanctified but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” This Epistle is addressed, “To them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,” I Corinthians 1:2. Referring to this sixth chapter, verse eleven, let us note the order: First, ye are washed; then, ye are sanctified; then, ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. We notice here that “sanctified” is mentioned before “justified”; and yet there are many so-called Bible-teachers who insist that the believer can never be sanctified until he has first been justified. God has the order here as He has the order in I Corinthians 1:30; sanctification before justification and redemption.

Presently we shall see that justified, sanctified believers can be and should be resanctified. But we have God’s order in these two verses. Now let us turn again to II Thessalonians 2:13 and read: “God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.” The sinner believes God’s truth, and when he believes God’s truth, he is sanctified by the Holy Spirit, unto salvation. Jesus Christ said in John 6:44, “No man can come unto me except my Father in Heaven draw Him, and I will raise Him up the last day.” The believing sinner is by the Holy Spirit convicted of sin (rejecting Christ) and when he believes, he is drawn by the Holy Spirit to Christ to be saved. Thus we see that sanctification precedes salvation. As we said, we shall presently refer to progressive sanctification, an experience of spiritual growth in the life of the saved one.

Let us go back to the sanctified Corinthians. In the sixth chapter, to which we referred, we read, in the nineteenth verse: “Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, which is in you which ye have of God, that ye are not your own.” We see them that they were temples of the Holy Spirit; that is, the Holy Spirit was dwelling within them. And yet notice what the Lord says to these sanctified temples of the Holy Spirit in the seventh verse of the sixth chapter; “There is utterly a sin among you.” Verse seven; “Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.” God here shows us that the sanctified Corinthians were sinning. They were doing wrong: they were defrauding. “They walked as men.” Verse three, chapter three. They were yet carnal, although sanctified Corinthians. The apostle was speaking to their shame. Sinning sanctified Church members.

Paul wrote an epistle to another group of Christians, located at Ephesus, and he addressed that epistle, “To the saints which are at Ephesus.” “To the saints.” In the fifth chapter of the epistle, in the third and fourth verses, we read these words: “But fornication and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints. Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking nor jesting which are not convenient; but rather giving of thanks.” Why did the apostle deem it necessary to tell saints not to engage in these sinful habits? Simply because he knew that there was the possibility. Certainly he knew other saints who had been guilty of these immoral habits. Now let us consider these two expressions: “To the saints,” “As becometh saints.” In other words, “Becoming saints,” “Becometh saints.” How does a sinner become a saint? What conduct becometh a saint? No one becomes a saint by behaving.

To these Ephesians, read what Paul writes in the second chapter. In verses one to three, he gives a black picture of their past history. But God is rich in mercy. “By grace are ye saved through faith, that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not of works.” These Ephesians did not become saints because of their good works. They became saints by grace, and that is the only way in which any sinner can become a saint.We read in that sixth chapter of Corinthians how these Corinthians were washed and sanctified and justified. But in the preceding verses we read what they had been before they were washed and made saints. The human material out of which God makes saints is described in verses nine and ten. A saint is a sinner saved by grace, and is no more of a saint after he has lived thirty years as a consecrated Christian, than he is when first saved.

Now every saint should behave as becometh a saint; but the individual is a saint because he has believed the gospel of his salvation. On believing the gospel of his salvation, the sinner is sealed with the Holy Spirit; the earnest of his inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, Ephesians 1:13 and 14. In the King James Edition of the Bible, we have a very unfortunate translation of Ephesians 1:13. It should read, “In whom we also trusted after that we heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salvation, in whom also, believing ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.” The expression in the King James version translated, “after that ye believed,” is simply the participle of the Greek verb, to believe. The word is “Pisteusantes.” It is the equivalent of our participle, “believing.” or perhaps a better translation, “on believing.” It certainly means when or at the time they believed. In other words, “on believing the gospel of salvation,” these Ephesian saints were sealed with the Holy Spirit. In the fourth chapter, the thirtieth verse of this epistle, we are told that the Ephesian saints were sealed unto the day of redemption. In that verse they are told not to grieve the Holy Spirit. Why should it be necessary for God to tell a saint not to grieve the Holy Spirit? Because there was more than the possibility or the probability. It is still a fact that the great majority of God’s saints do truly grieve the Holy Spirit. Every one of the Ephesian saints was sealed with the Holy Spirit, but not every one was always filled with the Holy Spirit. They were instructed in the fifth chapter and the eighteenth verse to be filled with the Holy Spirit. It is one thing to be sealed when saved unto the day of redemption with the Holy Spirit; it is another thing, day by day, to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[ChristisGod]

You are building on the wrong foundation-

Should Christians Seek Holiness in the Second Blessing?

No doubt, you have heard a “Holiness” sermon preached from Hebrews 12:14. Generally the preacher changes the verse and reads his text thus: “Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.” This is the equivalent of saying, “Without Christ, no man shall see the Lord.” God very clearly shows us that He

bereanbiblesociety.org

Every regenerated man is a redeemed man. Every redeemed man has had imputed to him the righteousness of God. Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. I John 5:1. No man is born of God because he is holy.

The believer is born of God because he believes something very definite. He believes that Jesus Christ, who knew no sin, was made sin in his behalf when He died on the cross of Calvary. And God says, ‘‘With the heart man believeth unto righteousness.” It is also true that with the heart man believeth unto regeneration; or man believeth unto redemption. It is likewise true that with the heart man believeth unto holiness. T

There are some who would lead us to believe that holiness means sinless perfection; that is, that the Christian should be not only perfect in his standing before God, but perfect in his conduct or state. “Hagiasmos” is the Greek word translated, sometimes, “holiness;” sometimes, “sanctification;” the same Greek word. Just as the same Greek word—the adjective—is sometimes translated “sanctified,” sometimes translated, “holy.”

In I Corinthians 7:14, we read, “The unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband.” Certainly this does not mean that the unbelieving husband or the unbelieving wife is without sin. Christ was led by Satan to the holy temple in the holy city. He was taken to Jerusalem. Jerusalem was called by God, “The Holy City,” that is, “The Sanctified city.” Most assuredly, that did not mean that Jerusalem was without sin; for in the Book of Revelation, Jerusalem is called “Sodom,” because of the great sin of that city.

Now let us read concerning the sanctified Corinthians, in I Corinthians 6:11: “Ye are washed, but ye are sanctified but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” This Epistle is addressed, “To them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,” I Corinthians 1:2. Referring to this sixth chapter, verse eleven, let us note the order: First, ye are washed; then, ye are sanctified; then, ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. We notice here that “sanctified” is mentioned before “justified”; and yet there are many so-called Bible-teachers who insist that the believer can never be sanctified until he has first been justified. God has the order here as He has the order in I Corinthians 1:30; sanctification before justification and redemption.

Presently we shall see that justified, sanctified believers can be and should be resanctified. But we have God’s order in these two verses. Now let us turn again to II Thessalonians 2:13 and read: “God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.” The sinner believes God’s truth, and when he believes God’s truth, he is sanctified by the Holy Spirit, unto salvation. Jesus Christ said in John 6:44, “No man can come unto me except my Father in Heaven draw Him, and I will raise Him up the last day.” The believing sinner is by the Holy Spirit convicted of sin (rejecting Christ) and when he believes, he is drawn by the Holy Spirit to Christ to be saved. Thus we see that sanctification precedes salvation. As we said, we shall presently refer to progressive sanctification, an experience of spiritual growth in the life of the saved one.

Let us go back to the sanctified Corinthians. In the sixth chapter, to which we referred, we read, in the nineteenth verse: “Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, which is in you which ye have of God, that ye are not your own.” We see them that they were temples of the Holy Spirit; that is, the Holy Spirit was dwelling within them. And yet notice what the Lord says to these sanctified temples of the Holy Spirit in the seventh verse of the sixth chapter; “There is utterly a sin among you.” Verse seven; “Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.” God here shows us that the sanctified Corinthians were sinning. They were doing wrong: they were defrauding. “They walked as men.” Verse three, chapter three. They were yet carnal, although sanctified Corinthians. The apostle was speaking to their shame. Sinning sanctified Church members.

Paul wrote an epistle to another group of Christians, located at Ephesus, and he addressed that epistle, “To the saints which are at Ephesus.” “To the saints.” In the fifth chapter of the epistle, in the third and fourth verses, we read these words: “But fornication and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints. Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking nor jesting which are not convenient; but rather giving of thanks.” Why did the apostle deem it necessary to tell saints not to engage in these sinful habits? Simply because he knew that there was the possibility. Certainly he knew other saints who had been guilty of these immoral habits. Now let us consider these two expressions: “To the saints,” “As becometh saints.” In other words, “Becoming saints,” “Becometh saints.” How does a sinner become a saint? What conduct becometh a saint? No one becomes a saint by behaving.

To these Ephesians, read what Paul writes in the second chapter. In verses one to three, he gives a black picture of their past history. But God is rich in mercy. “By grace are ye saved through faith, that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not of works.” These Ephesians did not become saints because of their good works. They became saints by grace, and that is the only way in which any sinner can become a saint.We read in that sixth chapter of Corinthians how these Corinthians were washed and sanctified and justified. But in the preceding verses we read what they had been before they were washed and made saints. The human material out of which God makes saints is described in verses nine and ten. A saint is a sinner saved by grace, and is no more of a saint after he has lived thirty years as a consecrated Christian, than he is when first saved.

Now every saint should behave as becometh a saint; but the individual is a saint because he has believed the gospel of his salvation. On believing the gospel of his salvation, the sinner is sealed with the Holy Spirit; the earnest of his inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, Ephesians 1:13 and 14. In the King James Edition of the Bible, we have a very unfortunate translation of Ephesians 1:13. It should read, “In whom we also trusted after that we heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salvation, in whom also, believing ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.” The expression in the King James version translated, “after that ye believed,” is simply the participle of the Greek verb, to believe. The word is “Pisteusantes.” It is the equivalent of our participle, “believing.” or perhaps a better translation, “on believing.” It certainly means when or at the time they believed. In other words, “on believing the gospel of salvation,” these Ephesian saints were sealed with the Holy Spirit. In the fourth chapter, the thirtieth verse of this epistle, we are told that the Ephesian saints were sealed unto the day of redemption. In that verse they are told not to grieve the Holy Spirit. Why should it be necessary for God to tell a saint not to grieve the Holy Spirit? Because there was more than the possibility or the probability. It is still a fact that the great majority of God’s saints do truly grieve the Holy Spirit. Every one of the Ephesian saints was sealed with the Holy Spirit, but not every one was always filled with the Holy Spirit. They were instructed in the fifth chapter and the eighteenth verse to be filled with the Holy Spirit. It is one thing to be sealed when saved unto the day of redemption with the Holy Spirit; it is another thing, day by day, to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Without HOLINESS no one will see the Lord. ( Hebrews 12:14 )

Be holy because I Am Holy ( 1 Peter 1:16 )

 

[Hepzibah]

Thanks for that, and I agree completely.....just frustrating and makes me anxious at times especially because of how aging is affecting me. (Though I believe and hope that through it I can learn to rely on the Lord more.) And I've never studied church history and early church "fathers" or even the leaders of the Reformation etc....it's late in the day for me to try and catch up with all that now, I get overwhelmed.

As for the rest, I believe we are to take it seriously, but also it seems to be a kind of two-sided coin when we look at all the scriptures together. Fully believe there is grace for us while we are learning and growing. Jesus said to Peter, get thee behind me Satan.......yet we can see Peter wasn't being condemned in the ultimate sense.

I have a question for you or anyone who wants to answer....is being fully sanctified only a temporary thing that people can move in and out of? To me that is like after growing up into adulthood, a person could literally regress into adolescence or childhood...it doesn't seem like a likely thing, or something that would happen easily. I just wonder if some may be given "tastes" of being fully sanctified along the way to encourage them onward, though am not sure how to think of it.

@Lizbeth

Johann is correct, that it is nothing to do with our own efforts. It is entirely by the power of God that we are given a pure heart, sometime after conversion, whereby the heart is definitely purer but not completely pure.

We do have times when we seem to be walking in this purity as when we first come to the Lord in the honeymoon period. But these times do not last long, maybe a day or two when we have had a 'mountain top' experience and we soon fall back on our old self and our inner sins like discouragement, un-thankfulness, doubt, lack of passion for Christ and the Bible.

The true walk in holiness is more than likely preceded by an agreement to entirely submit to Christ. This is further than the acceptance of the initial gift of salvation.

We can be be as zealous as we were when we first believed. Sanctification is a mystery and we cannot put this state into words, there are no words for it apart from it is joy unspeakable and full of glory - lasting and secure.

But as epi says, who has also been in this state, testified by thousands of others during the revivals, all of the writers of the NT and the early church, one can fall from that grace hopefully not for long. It is not easy to get back however because one may lose the red hot desire for it or even accept it.

It is very tempting all of the time, to slip into depending on one's own knowledge again whereas we are to be led by and walk in the Spirit.

Those who have never been there, and deny it, take scriptures that apply only for then and make them theirs but obviously lack the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Lizbeth]

By its very essence holiness is an eternal thing. If it is temporary for us it is because our faith hope and love is still at an infant stage. We can only grow into Christ-likeness by walking in His perfection...His keeping power.

There is a folly in the idea that we can grow into holiness...that we learn holiness. This is due to the lack of understanding of either righteous or holiness. Holiness is always in God's presence. Holiness is about LOCATION...seated in heavenly places with God IN Christ.

We in the West live from our excess...so we have no idea what it means to seek God with a whole heart. But only that level from us...ALL...unleashes the ALL from God. And how could it be any other way? Does God pamper our flesh? Only the heavily (not heavenly) indoctrinated could believe such a thing.

We remain in holiness by God's keeping power...like fridge magnet to a fridge. Until the cares of this world overcome that sticking power and we fall from grace. Saints will fall out of the Spirit as part of their holiness training...underestimating the cost of holiness...both from the sacrifice of Jesus...to what it takes for us to continue in holiness in forsaking this world and giving up our own lives in the same way that Jesus did.

So we learn to be self-less and sacrificial by that training.

Do we want to go back into the training...back into holiness...once we have failed grace? A saint will persists and go through the cross into Romans 8. And fight the good fight on that level...much wiser than before.

Some people, like me, are slower to learn. :) I have fallen out twice now. The first time out of sheer ignorance and selfishness...not wanting to depart from my "humanity". That was not by a lack of faith, but a lack of love for God. The second time I didn't want to come out...having lasted 2.5 years or so. I was tempted away by listening to a man , a believer (and a professional salesman), who convinced me that I was wrong about something important. What I took from him as being from God, was a spiritual test that I then failed. Like the young man who was convinced by "another prophet" that he could eat...when God told him not to...so he was eaten by a lion.

The superficial understanding of the modern church can't fathom this deeper training.

Will I return to the heavenly abiding in Christ? Well, I'm not dead yet.

Seems to me that if one "falls out" it means they are not fully sanctified by definition, but are like children still learning to walk and stumbling repeatedly until they finally do get it. No one unlearns and stops walking once they have fully learned how to walk.

 

[ChristisGod]

By its very essence holiness is an eternal thing. If it is temporary for us it is because our faith hope and love is still at an infant stage. We can only grow into Christ-likeness by walking in His perfection...His keeping power.

There is a folly in the idea that we can grow into holiness...that we learn holiness. This is due to the lack of understanding of either righteous or holiness. Holiness is always in God's presence. Holiness is about LOCATION...seated in heavenly places with God IN Christ.

We in the West live from our excess...so we have no idea what it means to seek God with a whole heart. But only that level from us...ALL...unleashes the ALL from God. And how could it be any other way? Does God pamper our flesh? Only the heavily (not heavenly) indoctrinated could believe such a thing.

We remain in holiness by God's keeping power...like fridge magnet to a fridge. Until the cares of this world overcome that sticking power and we fall from grace. Saints will fall out of the Spirit as part of their holiness training...underestimating the cost of holiness...both from the sacrifice of Jesus...to what it takes for us to continue in holiness in forsaking this world and giving up our own lives in the same way that Jesus did.

So we learn to be self-less and sacrificial by that training.

Do we want to go back into the training...back into holiness...once we have failed grace? A saint will persists and go through the cross into Romans 8. And fight the good fight on that level...much wiser than before.

Some people, like me, are slower to learn. :) I have fallen out twice now. The first time out of sheer ignorance and selfishness...not wanting to depart from my "humanity". That was not by a lack of faith, but a lack of love for God. The second time I didn't want to come out...having lasted 2.5 years or so. I was tempted away by listening to a man , a believer (and a professional salesman), who convinced me that I was wrong about something important. What I took from him as being from God, was a spiritual test that I then failed. Like the young man who was convinced by "another prophet" that he could eat...when God told him not to...so he was eaten by a lion.

The superficial understanding of the modern church can't fathom this deeper training.

Will I return to the heavenly abiding in Christ? Well, I'm not dead yet.

one is either plugged into the source ( Holy Spirit ) by yielding to Him in obedience and denying the flesh and its corrupt desires and living a holy, pleasing to God and obedient life which is our spiritual service of worship as per Romans 12:1-2 or one is quenching the spirit, grieving the spirit by falling into temptation instead of being delivered from it. There is a victorious Christian life that can be lived but the church in general has put up with sin, sinning, tolerating a christian life that is not victorious.

 

[Hepzibah]

Seems to me that if one "falls out" it means they are not fully sanctified by definition, but are like children still learning to walk and stumbling repeatedly until they finally do get it. No one unlearns and stops walking once they have fully learned how to walk.

Peter was fully sanctified ie baptized by the Spirit when he 'fell out' when he became afraid of the Jewish segment, claiming a believer needed to carry on with their customs.

One knows in this state whether there are any sinful thought coming from the heart where scripture says that sin comes forth. It is all by grace.

 

[marks]

Seems to me that if one "falls out" it means they are not fully sanctified by definition, but are like children still learning to walk and stumbling repeatedly until they finally do get it. No one unlearns and stops walking once they have fully learned how to walk.

Our walk is by faith and not be sight, I see this being the rule.

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

The same faith in Jesus by which we are justified is the same faith by which we stand in grace, rejoicing with the expectation of God's glory.

As we are trusting Him fully being reconciled to Him, we trust Him fully to walk in His Spirit, which we do by faith.

Some come to this quickly, some come to this slowly, and some are inconsistent in their trust, and therefore in their walk.

This is why legalistic teaching is a killer, because it gets a person to stop looking at Jesus, and start looking at themself, thinking they have to do or be some certain way in order to qualify for this salvation, or sanctification, they have to earn it by doing good.

When the reality is if we take our eyes completely off ourselves, and have a complete and total trust that Christ's reconciliation of us to God is sufficient, then we simply live as we ought.

I think walking in the Spirit is the natural state for the Christian.

Some people talk about a "honeymoon phase". I don't see that. I know I didn't experience that, but then I'm not like everyone else. What I think that really is, is that the new Christian hasn't yet learned to be legalistic, and therefore just thinks they are free, and they life free.

As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

That honeymoon never has to end, if our faith will remain that simple and pure. That honeymoon can be enjoyed anytime we have that trust in God, the trust of a small child, not questioning, just trusting. But then something comes up, we get distracted, then we get knocked off our balance, and we start looking at ourselves again.

Something I see in walking in the Spirit . . . I don't often think about myself.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I just wonder if some may be given "tastes" of being fully sanctified along the way to encourage them onward, though am not sure how to think of it.

This is what I understand God gave to me for a limited time, I believe for exactly the reason you've said, as encouragment. These past several years have included some extremely difficult times, for some very deep work. God's supernatural interventions like that have been amazingly beneficial for me. And it's been since that I've come to learn that we can walk in the Spirit by faith, now. It's our natural state as Christians, except that we don't do it. Maybe thinking we can't, or maybe thinking we are disqualified. And walking in the Spirit is living sanctified. We don't do the works of flesh, and we are the people God intends us to be.

Much love!