Deconstruction Part 2: Into Apostolicity

[marks]

Seems to me that if one "falls out" it means they are not fully sanctified by definition, but are like children still learning to walk and stumbling repeatedly until they finally do get it. No one unlearns and stops walking once they have fully learned how to walk.

I think the idea of children growing to maturity is exactly right. No child suddenly becomes an adult. And adults can have childish ways sometimes. Scripture speaks this way, that we be no more children . . . blown about by this and that doctrine. Getting our heads straight about what is true is part of being mature, understanding our place in Christ, our cleansing from sin, our power over sin, and our walk in the Spirit.

Stumbling over a rock doesn't mean you've forgotten how to walk, the real question is, what then? Someone may say, I fell, I don't actually know how to walk, and they lay there. Someone else may just get back up and start walking without another thought about it, only to try to see that rock in advance next time.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

We remain in holiness by God's keeping power..

The Born again remain "in Christ".... by being Born again as "one with God" as a New Creation in Christ."

Welcome to : Salvation.

Its "The Gift of Righteousness".. and the "Gift of Eternal Life", and "the Gift of Salvation".

 

[Ritajanice]

Sister, I'm just hopeless at keeping up with the more intellectual and scholarly side of everything that is being discussed

You need Spirit inspiration my friend not intellectual..what is intellect without the Spirit?

My heart/ spirit desires that of the Spirit, not that of the human intellect.

◄ Job 32:8 ►

Verse (Click for Chapter) King James Bible But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. New King James Version But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. American Standard Version But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty giveth them understanding. Berean Study Bible But there is a spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.

 

[Behold]

Seems to me that if one "falls out" it means they are not fully sanctified by definition, but are like children still learning to walk and stumbling repeatedly until they finally do get it. No one unlearns and stops walking once they have fully learned how to walk.

God designed His CHRISTianity, as "we get it for free, and then submit to Christ in us who lives through us".

Its really just submission to that simple truth, is the "walk of faith". and "right believing".

Where this becomes "mind boggled" is when you have people who are probably not truly born again, but are hyper religious self righteos fanatics, and are trying to teach you to DO Christianity, instead of becoming the eternal design of it, that is "Christ always gives me the Victory".. or "I can do all things Through Christ, which strengthens me".

See, the hyper religious self righteous fakers, try to get you to try to do that, as "doing righteousness" or "your self effort to get there"..

These are hyper religious..people. deceivers.... , who speak "christianese", .and "deceive many thereby"/

 

[Lizbeth]

God designed His CHRISTianity, as "we get it for free, and then submit to Christ in us who lives through us".

Its really just submission to that simple truth, is the "walk of faith". and "right believing".

Where this becomes "mind boggled" is when you have people who are probably not truly born again, but are hyper religious self righteos fanatics, and are trying to teach you to DO Christianity, instead of becoming the eternal design of it, that is "Christ always gives me the Victory".. or "I can do all things Through Christ, which strengthens me".

See, the hyper religious self righteous fakers, try to get you to try to do that, as "doing righteousness" or "your self effort to get there"..

These are hyper religious..people. deceivers.... , who speak "christianese", .and "deceive many thereby"/

I agree in principle, but where do you draw the line though...there are two sides to this story, it seems to me. We have our part in this, exercising our faith, choosing to do right etc. If anyone reminds or exhorts to obey the Lord and heed His warnings in scripture, it often gets assumed or misunderstood as trying to "earn" salvation.

 

[Behold]

I agree in principle, but where do you draw the line though...there are two sides to this story, it seems to me. We have our part in this, exercising our faith, choosing to do right etc. If anyone reminds or exhorts to obey the Lord and heed His warnings in scripture, it often gets assumed or misunderstood as trying to "earn" salvation.

There is Eternal Salvation, = that is Christ on the Cross, = becoming God's eternal justification for taking you.

So, that is God doing that for you as : "the Gift of Salvation".......... as Jesus completed it 2000 yrs ago , and we get it..by Faith..>"The Gift of Salvation".

Now, the next morning you get up..., and you have Eternal Life, you are Redeemed, you are "made righteous".. You have received "the Gift of Salvation".

So, that is to "start finished"....regarding having become "In Christ", and "One with God".
You, the born again, who trusted in Christ, are a "new Creation"......not a partial one.. not a 1.34% ...and working for a higher percentage.

You are the ENTIRE Born again, New Creation, in Christ, that is right now..."seated in heavenly places".

And God did all that for you, when you came to him with your life of sin., AS THAT IS ALL you had to offer God.
You had not been a good woman for months, before you were saved, as you were living a life of sin....same as us ALL.
That's what sinners love to do. and "all have sinned".
And when you came to God with Faith in Christ as a SINNER< God gave you "eternal life" and you were "made righteous".. "In Christ"... and became a : "Daughter of God.", and you can't change that by how you feel or think, because to become a Child of God is God caused and its a Birth in the Spirit.
A.) You can't stop being born.

"while we were YET SINNERS< God Saved us"...

And now..

You wake up the next morning....and you are ALL OF THAT, and you didnt lift a finger......all you did was "BELIEVE"..In Jesus, and God did the rest.
And Right now.......... "God who caused Salvation in you, will Himself be FAITHFUL.. to complete it".


And so now the next morning, your discipleship is "under way", and you are to learn what it means to have become a "New Creation in Christ", and you are to present your life to God as your "reasonable service". every day..... not to try to stay saved, but because you are saved..

And the first lesson for today, READER... for the new believer is to solve this....>"why is it that the more i try to be good, the more i think about being bad".?
"Why is it that the more i try not to want to be carnal, i want to be more carnal".?

So... learning how to not be that..MIND...... is the literal key to the "holy life".. as "perfected discipleship".

And that has nothing to do with trying to do it....as Christianity is ALL Spiritual.

 

[Lizbeth]

There is Eternal Salvation, = that is Christ on the Cross, = becoming God's eternal justification for taking you.

So, that is God doing that for you as : "the Gift of Salvation".......... as Jesus completed it 2000 yrs ago , and we get it..by Faith..>"The Gift of Salvation".

Now, the next morning you get up..., and you have Eternal Life, you are Redeemed, you are "made righteous".. You have received "the Gift of Salvation".

So, that is to "start finished"....regarding having become "In Christ", and "One with God".
You, the born again, who trusted in Christ, are a "new Creation"......not a partial one.. not a 1.34% ...and working for a higher percentage.

You are the ENTIRE Born again, New Creation, in Christ, that is right now..."seated in heavenly places".

And God did all that for you, when you came to him with your life of sin., AS THAT IS ALL you had to offer God.
You had not been a good woman for months, before you were saved, as you were living a life of sin....same as us ALL.
That's what sinners love to do. and "all have sinned".
And when you came to God with Faith in Christ as a SINNER< God gave you "eternal life" and you were "made righteous".. "In Christ"... and became a : "Daughter of God.", and you can't change that by how you feel or think, because to become a Child of God is God caused and its a Birth in the Spirit.
A.) You can't stop being born.

"while we were YET SINNERS< God Saved us"...

And now..

You wake up the next morning....and you are ALL OF THAT, and you didnt lift a finger......all you did was "BELIEVE"..In Jesus, and God did the rest.
And Right now.......... "God who caused Salvation in you, will Himself be FAITHFUL.. to complete it".


And so now the next morning, your discipleship is "under way", and you are to learn what it means to have become a "New Creation in Christ", and you are to present your life to God as your "reasonable service". every day..... not to try to stay saved, but because you are saved..

And the first lesson for today, READER... for the new believer is to solve this....>"why is it that the more i try to be good, the more i think about being bad".?
"Why is it that the more i try not to want to be carnal, i want to be more carnal".?

So... learning how to not be that..MIND...... is the literal key to the "holy life".. as "perfected discipleship".

And that has nothing to do with trying to do it....as Christianity is ALL Spiritual.

I don't want to get into an argument about this right now, but I believe there has to be some measure of our willingness and cooperation with the Lord. We are told to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Jesus....He is not going to do that for us.

 

[Behold]

but I believe there has to be some measure of our willingness and cooperation with the Lord.

"our willingness".....

= Originally, That would be to come to the Cross and trust in Christ.

This is to "obey the Gospel", which is to believe it.

If you do that, then God will do this..

Your "Faith is counted by God as (Christs) Righteousness".

God takes your sin, and Jesus has died for it,... and God takes the Righteous Life that Christ has lived and you become it, as "in Christ" and 'one with God".

You can't earn that one.
You have to receive it, as "the Gift of Salvation".

We are told to deny ourselves,

This is your discipleship.
Its not your Salvation.
See, our Salvation is nailed to a Tree, 2000 yrs ago, and we can't "do that" or "earn that', we can only Receive Christ's Sacrifice, as God's Gift of Salvation.

And that is to become a "Son/Daughter of God"..

And we became that, when we took our sinful LIFE< to God........and He redeemed it with Jesus's shed BLOOD and Death, and gave us the "new Birth" as "born again"., as a "new Creation"/

take up our cross and follow Jesus..

We do this because we have aleady been saved, = born again.
We dont take up our Cross to try to save ourselves.

so, we Take up OUR Cross, which is "serve God", because Christ on HIS CROSS< has become our SALVATION< already

..He is not going to do that for us.

Well, He does.. if we let Him.
He does it from the inside of us., if we let Him.
Its by the power of Christ, that we "always have the Victory" over the world, the flesh, and the devil".

So, when that is not working, and the Christian is a failed discipleship......no power, .. .its because they are trying to DO Christianity, and it can only be done (empowered) from inside us, by CHRIST.

This is why Paul says...>"i can do all things through Christ", and never does Paul say..>"see me, im working hard "

We are not to try to Do what only Christ can do through us, as when we do that, then Christ says..

"apart from me, you can do NOTHING".

"nothing" = you have no power, you have no prayer life, you have DEAD self effort and it feels just like that, all the time.

 

[Lizbeth]

I think the idea of children growing to maturity is exactly right. No child suddenly becomes an adult. And adults can have childish ways sometimes. Scripture speaks this way, that we be no more children . . . blown about by this and that doctrine. Getting our heads straight about what is true is part of being mature, understanding our place in Christ, our cleansing from sin, our power over sin, and our walk in the Spirit.

Stumbling over a rock doesn't mean you've forgotten how to walk, the real question is, what then? Someone may say, I fell, I don't actually know how to walk, and they lay there. Someone else may just get back up and start walking without another thought about it, only to try to see that rock in advance next time.

Much love!

Yes...though I didn't mean children like babes in Christ, just in terms of learning to walk in the Spirit. If one "falls" from walking in the Spirit can they be considered fully sanctified? Sounds to me like there must still be some work left to do if someone doesnt' remain in that place.

 

[marks]

Yes...though I didn't mean children like babes in Christ, just in terms of learning to walk in the Spirit. If one "falls" from walking in the Spirit can they be considered fully sanctified? Sounds to me like there must still be some work left to do if someone doesnt' remain in that place.

At the end of the day, 1 Corinthians 4 gives me a rule to go by. Paul wrote,

1 Corinthians 4:4 KJV
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Though my conscience may be clean, that's not the final answer, because I'm not the qualified judge, only Jesus is. So whether I'm "fully sanctified" or not isn't for me to say. It's not for anyone to say other than Jesus.

Fully Sanctified, to me, means that we spend all our time and energy loving God in our adoration and thanksgiving, and loving others in our service to them, and in our self-care to render us fit for service, whether that mean physical care or spiritual devotion, both are necessary. That we are not using our resources for other than what God intends for us. Overly simplified

Just like the runner that trains for the race, to be able to run the distance, I think God trains us to walk in His Spirit, by training us to trust Him. I see two things required, one is the choice on my part to do His bidding, the other being faith that He is able to bring such things to pass.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

At the end of the day, 1 Corinthians 4 gives me a rule to go by. Paul wrote,

1 Corinthians 4:4 KJV
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Though my conscience may be clean, that's not the final answer, because I'm not the qualified judge, only Jesus is. So whether I'm "fully sanctified" or not isn't for me to say. It's not for anyone to say other than Jesus.

Fully Sanctified, to me, means that we spend all our time and energy loving God in our adoration and thanksgiving, and loving others in our service to them, and in our self-care to render us fit for service, whether that mean physical care or spiritual devotion, both are necessary. That we are not using our resources for other than what God intends for us. Overly simplified

Just like the runner that trains for the race, to be able to run the distance, I think God trains us to walk in His Spirit, by training us to trust Him. I see two things required, one is the choice on my part to do His bidding, the other being faith that He is able to bring such things to pass.

Much love!

I don't know what to think about "full sanctified" yet, but I just meant from the point of view of those who talk about having experienced it.

 

[Wynona]

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1John 1:8.

As we know, good exegesis consists of using the inductive method, in taking many scriptures, and deriving a general conclusion from them. ‘The number, clarity and relevance of those many passages is crucial to the theological conclusions drawn. Building a doctrine on only one or two verses or passages which are unclear or not directly related to the issue, compromises the conclusion.’ (Olson: Beyond Calvinism and Arminianism, Introduction p4).

In the same letter we read:

He that commiteth sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8.

Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not, whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him neither known Him John 3:6

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin 1 John 3:9

He that abideth in Him ought himself also to walk, as even as He walked 1 John 2:6

He that saith I know Him and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him. 1John 2:4

Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

My little children, these things I write to you that you sin not. 1 John 2:1

John’s first letter was written to counteract the heresy which was affecting the church and was a treatise for Christians in general as there is no mention of a specific church as was contended by Lampe in his appeal to Theodoret.

The apostle is declaring to the whole world, his disapprobation of the doctrines maintained by the early or proto Gnostics who taught that Jesus was by birth a mere man but that 'the Christ' descended on Him at His baptism.’ These Gnostics, who taught that man could be righteous in spirit and still sin in the flesh, contended that the apostles had added commandments not given by Christ concerning the doctrine of sanctification. John devotes the greatest part of his epistle to the confirmation and enforcement of his doctrine.

We see that John is describing a process whereby we can test ourselves to see if we are in the true Light whereby the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin, and pointing out where the early Gnostic idea has been creeping in:

1:7 if we say we have no sin (as in Gnosticism, my insert) we deceive ourselves 1:8 but if we confess our sin, He will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Here John shows where the deceivers depart from the truth. Their teaching was that they had no need of this cleansing, as they did not consider immoral actions as sin due to matter being evil which was escaped through having ‘special’ knowledge and not in keeping God’s law. They maintained that a child of God could still sin and continue to have fellowship with God, a concept which was known as ‘spirit salvation’.

The early fathers on the other hand, taught that we must at least be on the road to theosis or union with Christ and this starts with Purification, or knowledge of the sin within, with the desire that we will be cleansed from all sin not that it might remain within. We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness that is, walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two different opposing state which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about the 'carnal' or fleshy, against those who were walking in the Spirit.

In verses 7 and 9, John says that the benefit of walking in the light are:-

1)We have fellowship with one another in the unity of the Spirit (agreement)

2)By confessing our sins we will be forgiven

3)We will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness and sin.

Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-

1)We are deceived and remain in our sin

2)There is no truth in us

3)We make God a liar by denying our need for cleansing from all sin.

So John is saying that it is only when we are walking in the darkness that we are blind to our need of coming to Christ for His cleansing from all sin. The letter is to believers and not unbelievers. And believers can fall into the error of walking in the flesh as Paul demonstrated to the Galatians who thought that they could go on to maturity or perfection through the works of the law and not through faith.

Those who were being misled by the Gnosticism and today by the preachers of 'positional righteousness' were walking in darkness because they were still sinning and did not see their need of the cleansing which can be provided by Christ alone. So they thought that they had no sin to be dealt with and were acceptable as they were to be in fellowship with Christ, but John says that they walk in darkness. But if we see our need for cleansing from all sin and come to Christ then He will be able to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So it is these ones who are saying wrongly that they have no sin not the ones who have come to Christ and have been cleansed from all unrighteousness and are in union with Christ, or in the state of theosis.

Excellent! Do you mind if I save this post? I think a lot of believers are taught 1 John 1:8 out of context. We can and should stop sinning.

 

[Wynona]

Any 'appearance' of God to us humans is earth shattering. It is like nothing else. However, teaching is so bad in Evangelicalism, which is where I ended up - Calvinism that is, that we make assumptions and indeed our lives have been changed. But we are not much use to God yet in that state.

How do you describe your beliefs now? I was influenced by Calvinist and Evangelicalism too.

My husband and I are deconstructionist with the modern church but strict on adhering to the Scriptures.

 

[Hepzibah]

Excellent! Do you mind if I save this post? I think a lot of believers are taught 1 John 1:8 out of context. We can and should stop sinning.

Agreed, but think it is nearly all taking it out of context. Yes you are welcome to save it. Thank you.

 

[Hepzibah]

How do you describe your beliefs now? I was influenced by Calvinist and Evangelicalism too.

My husband and I are deconstructionist with the modern church but strict on adhering to the Scriptures.

Hi Wynona

I spent most of the last 50 years as a believer, in Evangelicalism, some of it in Calvinism, and then a few years ago began to become interested in Eastern Orthodoxy, taking a lot of time studying the early teachings of the church, and realizing that whatever we believe, must be seen there, in the faith handed down once for all to the saints. The main reason I began that study was due to their teaching on union with Christ as a later event to that of conversion, which was continued in the west by such as John Wesley.

As a result most of my Protestantism was destroyed, when I saw so little of its chief tenets being taught. I found it was necessary to grasp the 'eastern' mindset, not just read the writings, and to understand how much of Greek philosophy has invaded the church, to its detriment. I believe that anyone seriously getting into church history will be unable to continue as a Protestant.

As the early writers had Greek as their mother tongue and understood the culture at the time, I consider their interpretation of scripture to be the nearest we have for a lens to see it through, of course also being guided by the Holy Spirit within.

However, I was stuck as I could not accept the gradual sanctification of modern day Orthodox, nor would they accept me with my beliefs on paedobaptism. Since then I have been reading Anabaptist/Mennonite teaching from David Bercot and am liking what I am finding. He however does not accept EO spirituality but a lot of the rest is in agreement with my understanding of scripture.

So taking all things in consideration, and with the hope that I can convert him lol by looking more deeply into the early teachings, I am following this line at present. I do like their emphasis on Jesus in the gospels, especially Matthew, rather than the later letters for praxis. Even though keeping the law of Christ is a work of the flesh in the unsanctified, they are at least are making much more effort in keeping the world out of the church.

I however keep my mind open and looking for guidance here. I am becoming more and more convinced that the modern church has 'had it' since it started its decline, departing from the RCC but not properly returning to the early teachings. I have not heard the term deconstructionist regarding the modern church so will look into that. Thanks for that and for your interest.

 

[Wynona]

Hi Wynona

I spent most of the last 50 years as a believer, in Evangelicalism, some of it in Calvinism, and then a few years ago began to become interested in Eastern Orthodoxy, taking a lot of time studying the early teachings of the church, and realizing that whatever we believe, must be seen there, in the faith handed down once for all to the saints. The main reason I began that study was due to their teaching on union with Christ as a later event to that of conversion, which was continued in the west by such as John Wesley.

As a result most of my Protestantism was destroyed, when I saw so little of its chief tenets being taught. I found it was necessary to grasp the 'eastern' mindset, not just read the writings, and to understand how much of Greek philosophy has invaded the church, to its detriment. I believe that anyone seriously getting into church history will be unable to continue as a Protestant.

As the early writers had Greek as their mother tongue and understood the culture at the time, I consider their interpretation of scripture to be the nearest we have for a lens to see it through, of course also being guided by the Holy Spirit within.

However, I was stuck as I could not accept the gradual sanctification of modern day Orthodox, nor would they accept me with my beliefs on paedobaptism. Since then I have been reading Anabaptist/Mennonite teaching from David Bercot and am liking what I am finding. He however does not accept EO spirituality but a lot of the rest is in agreement with my understanding of scripture.

So taking all things in consideration, and with the hope that I can convert him lol by looking more deeply into the early teachings, I am following this line at present. I do like their emphasis on Jesus in the gospels, especially Matthew, rather than the later letters for praxis. Even though keeping the law of Christ is a work of the flesh in the unsanctified, they are at least are making much more effort in keeping the world out of the church.

I however keep my mind open and looking for guidance here. I am becoming more and more convinced that the modern church has 'had it' since it started its decline, departing from the RCC but not properly returning to the early teachings. I have not heard the term deconstructionist regarding the modern church so will look into that. Thanks for that and for your interest.

Was aware of the Orthodox and Greek Othodox Church but not Eastern Orthodox. Some beautiful music from the churches, but I don't know much about the doctrine. Thank you for sharing.

Some deconstructionists question the Bible. We believe the Bible is our objective standard as Christians but that modern churches of all kinds have fallen away from it and the fear of the Lord. My favorite one is Alan Ballou who posts his Bible teaching on Youtube.

 

[Hepzibah]

The term eastern was I think due to it being the Russian and Greek parts of the church united. I love the chanting in the liturgy, and the liturgy itself as it is just about all scripture.

Do you have a link for me to hear Alan Ballou's main teachings thanks. I have looked at the video list.

 

[Wynona]

The term eastern was I think due to it being the Russian and Greek parts of the church united. I love the chanting in the liturgy, and the liturgy itself as it is just about all scripture.

Do you have a link for me to hear Alan Ballou's main teachings thanks. I have looked at the video list.

Try this one

 

[Hepzibah]

Try this one

Excellent. Listened to it on 1.5. Very refreshing to hear someone who takes scripture seriously.

 

[Lizbeth]

The term eastern was I think due to it being the Russian and Greek parts of the church united. I love the chanting in the liturgy, and the liturgy itself as it is just about all scripture.

Do you have a link for me to hear Alan Ballou's main teachings thanks. I have looked at the video list.

Do you know if Eastern Orthodox preaches the need to be born again of the Spirit? I asked an EO person that question on the forum recently but he never answered.