The Modern Gospel

[ChristisGod]

Guess Mike has excommunicated you since you are espousing Gnosticism.
It appears there is a significant misunderstanding regarding the theological positions and contributions of Augustine, Calvin, and Luther. Let's address these points accurately using historical facts and scriptural references.

Addressing the Misunderstanding
Augustine, Calvin, and Luther were not Gnostics: [you are]

Gnosticism is a heretical movement that emerged in the early Christian centuries, characterized by its dualistic worldview and the belief that salvation comes through esoteric knowledge. Augustine, Calvin, and Luther vehemently opposed such ideas.

Augustine wrote extensively against Gnostic teachings. For example, in his work "Against the Heresies," he refutes Gnostic dualism and emphasizes the goodness of creation and the importance of Christ's incarnation.

Their Teachings Were Rooted in Scripture:

Augustine: Known for his works such as "Confessions" and "The City of God," Augustine's theology centered on the grace of God, human sinfulness, and the necessity of divine intervention for salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 was central to his teachings: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

Calvin: In his "Institutes of the Christian Religion," Calvin systematically expounded on biblical doctrines, emphasizing God's sovereignty, predestination, and the sufficiency of Scripture. Romans 9:15-16 reflects his teachings on God's sovereign choice: "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy."

Luther: Martin Luther's key contribution was the principle of "sola scriptura" (Scripture alone) and "sola fide" (faith alone). His 95 Theses criticized the Catholic Church's practices and called for a return to biblical teachings. Galatians 3:11, "Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because 'the righteous will live by faith,'" was pivotal in his theology.
Refuting the Claim of Mixing Paganism, Greek Philosophy, Platonism, and Gnosticism:

While Augustine, Calvin, and Luther were influenced by their intellectual contexts, their primary source was always Scripture. They used philosophical tools to articulate and defend biblical truths, not to replace or distort them.
For example, Augustine's use of Platonic thought was to explain Christian doctrines more clearly, not to mix paganism with Christianity. His focus remained on biblical teachings, as seen in his reflections on the Psalms and his expositions of Paul's letters.

Augustine, Calvin, and Luther were not Gnostics but staunch defenders of Christian orthodoxy whose teachings were deeply rooted in Scripture. They did not mix Christianity with paganism, Greek philosophy, Platonism, or Gnosticism. Instead, they utilized philosophical concepts to better explain and defend biblical doctrines.

Glad you are excommunicated since I would have done the same [excommunicating you] if I was a pastor of God's flock.

a sure sign of defeat is to attack the person and not the argument. you are self defeated already. this is how your mentors james white and matt slick taught you how to debate. If I were you I would stay away from youtube.

more ad hominems /personal attacks and you are incapable of addressing an argument and attack the poster and not the argument.

there are many calvinist theologians who agree that calvin/luther got most of their beliefs from augustine. the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

your revisionist church history doesn't change the historical facts about augustine and gnosticism.

 

[Lizbeth]

God gave us brains to use - sanctified ones of course, in accordance with the level at which we have been blessed. There is also the issue of damage done to the brain due to abuse of drugs alcohol and highly processed food which we need to heal with lifestyle changes. That does not mean sitting waiting for God to heal it for us.

The carnal mind is not the brain. It is seeing things through 'fleshy eyes' and not 'spiritual eyes' or in accordance with the leading of the Spirit which are to be taken captive.

This does not mean that we are not to think. You are confusing things.

I'm just advising/reminding not to try too hard to reason it out but be at rest - concerning imputed righteousness. Our minds need "renewing" to understand/grasp various things...that means our mind needs to become spiritual (enLIGHTened) to understand whatever subject we are looking at, and that is what it means to have the mind of Christ on that subject......we can have our mind renewed to understand some things while still having other things that we don't understand yet. Sight to see/understand spiritual things comes from HIM to the mind, not from the mind itself, as I think of it.

His strength is made perfect...in our weakness. They that WAIT on the Lord will RENEW..... their strength. :)

 

[ChristisGod]

I'm just advising/reminding not to try too hard to reason it out but be at rest - concerning imputed righteousness. Our minds need "renewing" to understand/grasp various things...that means our mind needs to become spiritual (enLIGHTened) to understand whatever subject we are looking at, and that is what it means to have the mind of Christ on that subject......we can have our mind renewed to understand some things while still having other things that we don't understand yet. Sight to see/understand spiritual things comes from HIM to the mind, not from the mind itself, as I think of it.

The Spirit and the Mind. A check up from the neck up! The Mind is a Battlefield.

Battlefield means the field or ground upon which a battle is fought. 2. and area of contention, conflict, or hostile opposition.” A battlefield is a place of hostile opposition. A battlefield is a place where battles are won and lost. Everyday – every moment – there is a battle going on in our minds between right and wrong, good and bad, God’s way or Satan’s way, the Spirit or the flesh. It is our wills that determine who wins control of our minds, and because actions follow thoughts, ultimately who wins control of our very lives

The enemy attacked Eve in her mind/reasoning and tried the same with Jesus. He tried to cause doubt with Gods word and succeeded with Eve (did God really say? And you will not surely die) and he failed with Jesus. He attacks us today in the same way. The sword of the spirit which is the word of God is our only offensive weapon and defense against our enemy. Jesus did not use Hid Divine power as God to defeat satan, He used the same means we have at our disposal to defeat the enemy- the Word of God!

1-We must know Gods Word- Jesus used Gods word against the enemy.

2-We must memorize Gods Word. Ps 119:11, Ps 37:31, Ps 40:8

3- We must meditate on Gods Word- Joshua 1:8, Ps 1:2, Ps 119:147-48

4- We must use Gods Word- John 14:26. It is written was Jesus’ response. Matt 4:1-11

5- We must train ourselves in Gods Word- discipline, training, practice. 1 Tim 4:7, 1 Cor 9:25-27, 2 Tim 2:1-7.

Sow a thought and you reap an action; sow an act and you reap a habit; sow a habit and you reap a character; sow a character and you reap a destiny.” Our destiny is tied directly to and starts with our thoughts.

Romans 8:5-14-Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God

Colossians 3:1-10- Therefore, if you have been raised with Christ, keep seeking the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.5 Therefore, treat the parts of your earthly body as dead to sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you also, rid yourselves of all of them: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene speech from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you stripped off the old self with its evil practices, 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created it

1 Peter 1:13-16 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.

Galatians 5:16-18- So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

1 Corinthians 2:9-16- However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”

But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Romans 12:1-2-Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Ephesians 4:17-25-Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Philippians 2:1-5 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

Philippians 4:8-Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your mind dwell on these things.

Proverbs 4:23- Be careful how you think; your life is shaped by your thoughts.

Proverbs 23:7- As a man thinks in his heart so is he. Cf Deut 4:9, Proverbs 4. Col 3:23, Prov 22:29

 

[Lizbeth]

The Spirit and the Mind. A check up from the neck up! The Mind is a Battlefield.

Battlefield means the field or ground upon which a battle is fought. 2. and area of contention, conflict, or hostile opposition.” A battlefield is a place of hostile opposition. A battlefield is a place where battles are won and lost. Everyday – every moment – there is a battle going on in our minds between right and wrong, good and bad, God’s way or Satan’s way, the Spirit or the flesh. It is our wills that determine who wins control of our minds, and because actions follow thoughts, ultimately who wins control of our very lives

The enemy attacked Eve in her mind/reasoning and tried the same with Jesus. He tried to cause doubt with Gods word and succeeded with Eve (did God really say? And you will not surely die) and he failed with Jesus. He attacks us today in the same way. The sword of the spirit which is the word of God is our only offensive weapon and defense against our enemy. Jesus did not use Hid Divine power as God to defeat satan, He used the same means we have at our disposal to defeat the enemy- the Word of God!

1-We must know Gods Word- Jesus used Gods word against the enemy.

2-We must memorize Gods Word. Ps 119:11, Ps 37:31, Ps 40:8

3- We must meditate on Gods Word- Joshua 1:8, Ps 1:2, Ps 119:147-48

4- We must use Gods Word- John 14:26. It is written was Jesus’ response. Matt 4:1-11

5- We must train ourselves in Gods Word- discipline, training, practice. 1 Tim 4:7, 1 Cor 9:25-27, 2 Tim 2:1-7.

Sow a thought and you reap an action; sow an act and you reap a habit; sow a habit and you reap a character; sow a character and you reap a destiny.” Our destiny is tied directly to and starts with our thoughts.

Romans 8:5-14-Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God

Colossians 3:1-10- Therefore, if you have been raised with Christ, keep seeking the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.5 Therefore, treat the parts of your earthly body as dead to sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you also, rid yourselves of all of them: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene speech from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you stripped off the old self with its evil practices, 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created it

1 Peter 1:13-16 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.

Galatians 5:16-18- So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

1 Corinthians 2:9-16- However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”

But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Romans 12:1-2-Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Ephesians 4:17-25-Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Philippians 2:1-5 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

Philippians 4:8-Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your mind dwell on these things.

Proverbs 4:23- Be careful how you think; your life is shaped by your thoughts.

Proverbs 23:7- As a man thinks in his heart so is he. Cf Deut 4:9, Proverbs 4. Col 3:23, Prov 22:29

Amen. I wonder if we can think of the mind as being the seat of the soul...? It's where the Spirit lusteth against the flesh (natural man which can't receive things of God) and the flesh against the Spirit.

 

[ChristisGod]

Amen. I wonder if we can think of the mind as being the seat of the soul...? It's where the Spirit lusteth against the flesh (natural man which can't receive things of God) and the flesh against the Spirit.

That was a devotion I gave to our mens discipleship group at our church :)

 

[Hepzibah]

Guess Mike has excommunicated you since you are espousing Gnosticism.
It appears there is a significant misunderstanding regarding the theological positions and contributions of Augustine, Calvin, and Luther. Let's address these points accurately using historical facts and scriptural references.

Addressing the Misunderstanding
Augustine, Calvin, and Luther were not Gnostics: [you are]

Gnosticism is a heretical movement that emerged in the early Christian centuries, characterized by its dualistic worldview and the belief that salvation comes through esoteric knowledge. Augustine, Calvin, and Luther vehemently opposed such ideas.

Augustine wrote extensively against Gnostic teachings. For example, in his work "Against the Heresies," he refutes Gnostic dualism and emphasizes the goodness of creation and the importance of Christ's incarnation.

Their Teachings Were Rooted in Scripture:

Augustine: Known for his works such as "Confessions" and "The City of God," Augustine's theology centered on the grace of God, human sinfulness, and the necessity of divine intervention for salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 was central to his teachings: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

Calvin: In his "Institutes of the Christian Religion," Calvin systematically expounded on biblical doctrines, emphasizing God's sovereignty, predestination, and the sufficiency of Scripture. Romans 9:15-16 reflects his teachings on God's sovereign choice: "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy."

Luther: Martin Luther's key contribution was the principle of "sola scriptura" (Scripture alone) and "sola fide" (faith alone). His 95 Theses criticized the Catholic Church's practices and called for a return to biblical teachings. Galatians 3:11, "Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because 'the righteous will live by faith,'" was pivotal in his theology.
Refuting the Claim of Mixing Paganism, Greek Philosophy, Platonism, and Gnosticism:

While Augustine, Calvin, and Luther were influenced by their intellectual contexts, their primary source was always Scripture. They used philosophical tools to articulate and defend biblical truths, not to replace or distort them.
For example, Augustine's use of Platonic thought was to explain Christian doctrines more clearly, not to mix paganism with Christianity. His focus remained on biblical teachings, as seen in his reflections on the Psalms and his expositions of Paul's letters.

Augustine, Calvin, and Luther were not Gnostics but staunch defenders of Christian orthodoxy whose teachings were deeply rooted in Scripture. They did not mix Christianity with paganism, Greek philosophy, Platonism, or Gnosticism. Instead, they utilized philosophical concepts to better explain and defend biblical doctrines.

Glad you are excommunicated since I would have done the same [excommunicating you] if I was a pastor of God's flock.

Johann wrote: "While Augustine, Calvin, and Luther were influenced by their intellectual contexts, their primary source was always Scripture. They used philosophical tools to articulate and defend biblical truths, not to replace or distort them.
For example, Augustine's use of Platonic thought was to explain Christian doctrines more clearly, not to mix paganism with Christianity. His focus remained on biblical teachings, as seen in his reflections on the Psalms and his expositions of Paul's letters."

No. Augustine and the Reformers were all under the banner of Deterministic Theology. The early church taught free will. The early church fought against Deterministic Theology. These are two entirely different theologies, one linked to paganism and Gnosticsm. Just because they were orthodox in many things, this determent is heresy. It alters the whole character of God.

Augustine: Gnostic Heretic and Corruptor of The Church

‘Augustine himself. (A wonderful saint! As full of pride, passion, bitterness, censoriousness, and as foul-mouthed to all that contradicted him… When Augustine’s passions were heated, his wor…

crosstheology.wordpress.com

 

[ChristisGod]

Johann wrote: "While Augustine, Calvin, and Luther were influenced by their intellectual contexts, their primary source was always Scripture. They used philosophical tools to articulate and defend biblical truths, not to replace or distort them.
For example, Augustine's use of Platonic thought was to explain Christian doctrines more clearly, not to mix paganism with Christianity. His focus remained on biblical teachings, as seen in his reflections on the Psalms and his expositions of Paul's letters."

No. Augustine and the Reformers were all under the banner of Deterministic Theology. The early church taught free will. The early church fought against Deterministic Theology. These are two entirely different theologies, one linked to paganism and Gnosticsm. Just because they were orthodox in many things, this determent is heresy. It alters the whole character of God.

Augustine: Gnostic Heretic and Corruptor of The Church

‘Augustine himself. (A wonderful saint! As full of pride, passion, bitterness, censoriousness, and as foul-mouthed to all that contradicted him… When Augustine’s passions were heated, his wor…

crosstheology.wordpress.com

Amen !!!

 

[Lizbeth]

While the parable of the pearl of great price (Matthew 13:45-46) does illustrate the value of the kingdom of heaven, it should not be interpreted to mean that we can purchase grace. Instead, it signifies the supreme worth of the kingdom, for which one should be willing to forsake all earthly attachments. However, the entrance into this kingdom is still by grace, as evidenced by other scriptures.

Not purchasing or earning salvation, but it is our part in counting/paying the cost of following Him. Like "filling up that which is behind of the sufferings of Christ" does not mean His suffering somehow fell short. Even truth must be bought...."BUY the truth but sell it not." We have our part and price to pay to grow in understanding as we walk on the narrow way. Oil for our lamps....we are buying it (paying a price) as we go along even though the initial deposit was free.

 

[Hepzibah]

https://classicalchristianity.com/2011/05/09/eastern-orthodox-view-of-calvinism/

 

[Johann]

Augustine and the Reformers were all under the banner of Deterministic Theology. The early church taught free will. The early church fought against Deterministic Theology. These are two entirely different theologies, one linked to paganism and Gnosticsm. Just because they were orthodox in many things, this determent is heresy. It alters the whole character of God.

Your assertion that Augustine and the Reformers taught Deterministic Theology in a manner linked to paganism and Gnosticism, and that this stance contradicts the early church's teachings on free will, needs careful examination.

Understanding Augustine and the Reformers
Augustine’s Theology:

Augustine did indeed emphasize God's sovereignty and grace, particularly in his debates against the Pelagians. Pelagianism, which taught that human beings could achieve salvation through their efforts without divine grace, was deemed heretical.
In his work "On Grace and Free Will," Augustine reconciles God's sovereignty with human responsibility: "He [God] willed that their free will should be in them, as the good of their nature, without which they cannot live rightly" (Chapter 33). Augustine acknowledges human free will but asserts that it is God’s grace that enables humans to choose rightly.
The Reformers’ Theology:

Martin Luther and John Calvin built on Augustine’s ideas, emphasizing salvation by grace through faith, not by human merit.
Luther: In "The Bondage of the Will," Luther argues that human will is bound by sin and only God's grace can free it: "For the will of man without grace is not free, but is enslaved, and that too with its own consent" (Part I). This was a rebuttal to Erasmus's defense of free will.
Calvin: In "Institutes of the Christian Religion," Calvin discusses predestination and God’s sovereignty extensively. He writes, "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man" (Book III, Chapter 21).

Early Church and Free Will
Early Church Fathers:
Early Christian writers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Origen emphasized free will as an essential aspect of human nature.
Justin Martyr: In his "First Apology," he states, "We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions" (Chapter 43). This indicates a belief in human responsibility and free will.
Irenaeus: In "Against Heresies," he argues that human free will is part of God's image in man, stating, "God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul" (Book IV, Chapter 37).
Reconciling the Two Views
Scriptural Basis:

The Bible contains passages that support both God’s sovereignty and human free will. For instance, Romans 9 discusses God's sovereign choice, while Deuteronomy 30:19 emphasizes human responsibility: "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."
Theological Synthesis:

The tension between God’s sovereignty and human free will is a complex issue. Many theologians, including Augustine and the Reformers, sought to balance these concepts. Augustine’s later works, especially in his anti-Pelagian writings, lean heavily on God’s grace but still recognize the role of human response.

Addressing the Charge of Heresy

Misunderstanding of Gnosticism and Paganism:
Gnosticism and paganism were fundamentally opposed to Christian orthodoxy, teaching that salvation comes through secret knowledge or human effort.

Augustine and the Reformers rejected these ideas, emphasizing instead the necessity of divine grace for salvation.
The claim that their theology alters the character of God misunderstands their intention. Augustine and the Reformers sought to uphold the biblical portrayal of God as both just and merciful, sovereign and gracious.

Conclusion
Augustine and the Reformers emphasized God's grace and sovereignty, which some interpret as deterministic theology. However, they also recognized human responsibility within the framework of divine grace. Their teachings were rooted in Scripture and aimed at combating heresies like Pelagianism, not aligning with Gnosticism or paganism. The early church did emphasize free will, but it also acknowledged the necessity of God's grace, showing that these theological perspectives are not mutually exclusive but rather part of a broader, nuanced understanding of Christian doctrine.

Further Reading
Augustine: "On Grace and Free Will," "Confessions," "The City of God"
Martin Luther: "The Bondage of the Will"
John Calvin: "Institutes of the Christian Religion"
Justin Martyr: "First Apology"
Irenaeus: "Against Heresies"
These writings provide deeper insight into the complex interplay between divine sovereignty and human free will, illustrating the rich theological heritage that informs contemporary Christian thought.

Thanks
J.

 

[ChristisGod]

Your assertion that Augustine and the Reformers taught Deterministic Theology in a manner linked to paganism and Gnosticism, and that this stance contradicts the early church's teachings on free will, needs careful examination.

Understanding Augustine and the Reformers
Augustine’s Theology:

Augustine did indeed emphasize God's sovereignty and grace, particularly in his debates against the Pelagians. Pelagianism, which taught that human beings could achieve salvation through their efforts without divine grace, was deemed heretical.
In his work "On Grace and Free Will," Augustine reconciles God's sovereignty with human responsibility: "He [God] willed that their free will should be in them, as the good of their nature, without which they cannot live rightly" (Chapter 33). Augustine acknowledges human free will but asserts that it is God’s grace that enables humans to choose rightly.
The Reformers’ Theology:

Martin Luther and John Calvin built on Augustine’s ideas, emphasizing salvation by grace through faith, not by human merit.
Luther: In "The Bondage of the Will," Luther argues that human will is bound by sin and only God's grace can free it: "For the will of man without grace is not free, but is enslaved, and that too with its own consent" (Part I). This was a rebuttal to Erasmus's defense of free will.
Calvin: In "Institutes of the Christian Religion," Calvin discusses predestination and God’s sovereignty extensively. He writes, "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man" (Book III, Chapter 21).

Early Church and Free Will
Early Church Fathers:
Early Christian writers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Origen emphasized free will as an essential aspect of human nature.
Justin Martyr: In his "First Apology," he states, "We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions" (Chapter 43). This indicates a belief in human responsibility and free will.
Irenaeus: In "Against Heresies," he argues that human free will is part of God's image in man, stating, "God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul" (Book IV, Chapter 37).
Reconciling the Two Views
Scriptural Basis:

The Bible contains passages that support both God’s sovereignty and human free will. For instance, Romans 9 discusses God's sovereign choice, while Deuteronomy 30:19 emphasizes human responsibility: "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."
Theological Synthesis:

The tension between God’s sovereignty and human free will is a complex issue. Many theologians, including Augustine and the Reformers, sought to balance these concepts. Augustine’s later works, especially in his anti-Pelagian writings, lean heavily on God’s grace but still recognize the role of human response.

Addressing the Charge of Heresy

Misunderstanding of Gnosticism and Paganism:
Gnosticism and paganism were fundamentally opposed to Christian orthodoxy, teaching that salvation comes through secret knowledge or human effort.

Augustine and the Reformers rejected these ideas, emphasizing instead the necessity of divine grace for salvation.
The claim that their theology alters the character of God misunderstands their intention. Augustine and the Reformers sought to uphold the biblical portrayal of God as both just and merciful, sovereign and gracious.

Conclusion
Augustine and the Reformers emphasized God's grace and sovereignty, which some interpret as deterministic theology. However, they also recognized human responsibility within the framework of divine grace. Their teachings were rooted in Scripture and aimed at combating heresies like Pelagianism, not aligning with Gnosticism or paganism. The early church did emphasize free will, but it also acknowledged the necessity of God's grace, showing that these theological perspectives are not mutually exclusive but rather part of a broader, nuanced understanding of Christian doctrine.

Further Reading
Augustine: "On Grace and Free Will," "Confessions," "The City of God"
Martin Luther: "The Bondage of the Will"
John Calvin: "Institutes of the Christian Religion"
Justin Martyr: "First Apology"
Irenaeus: "Against Heresies"
These writings provide deeper insight into the complex interplay between divine sovereignty and human free will, illustrating the rich theological heritage that informs contemporary Christian thought.

Thanks
J.

Another cut n paste from the teachings and philosophy of fallen man.

Let me know when you can make your own arguments from the Bible instead of cut n pastes of other men.

Sola Scripture!!!!!!!!

 

[Johann]

Not purchasing or earning salvation, but it is our part in counting/paying the cost of following Him. Like "filling up that which is behind of the sufferings of Christ" does not mean His suffering somehow fell short. Even truth must be bought...."BUY the truth but sell it not." We have our part and price to pay to grow in understanding as we walk on the narrow way. Oil for our lamps....we are buying it (paying a price) as we go along even though the initial deposit was free.

You are conflating-

Your statement touches on important aspects of discipleship and the cost of following Christ. However, it conflates the free gift of salvation with the ongoing process of discipleship and sanctification. Let's correct and clarify this with appropriate scriptures.

Correcting the Statement with Scriptures
Salvation is a Free Gift:

Salvation is entirely by grace through faith and not something that can be purchased or earned. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes this clear: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
The Cost of Discipleship:

While salvation is a free gift, following Jesus involves counting the cost and making sacrifices. Jesus said in Luke 14:27-28, "And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?"

Suffering for Christ:

The phrase "filling up that which is behind of the sufferings of Christ" comes from Colossians 1:24, where Paul says, "Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church."

This does not imply that Christ's sufferings were insufficient for salvation, but that Paul shares in the sufferings for the sake of the church, participating in the mission and struggle of spreading the gospel.
Buying the Truth:

Proverbs 23:23 states, "Buy the truth and do not sell it—wisdom, instruction and insight as well." This metaphor emphasizes the value and importance of truth, wisdom, and instruction, suggesting that we should seek and hold on to them diligently. It does not imply a transactional purchase but rather the dedication and commitment required to obtain and retain spiritual wisdom.

Parable of the Ten Virgins:

The parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 illustrates the importance of being prepared and vigilant, symbolized by the oil for their lamps. While the wise virgins brought extra oil, representing their preparedness and continuous faithfulness, this should not be interpreted as a purchase of salvation. The "oil" can be seen as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit and the ongoing relationship with God, cultivated through a life of faith and obedience.

Synthesizing These Concepts
Initial Deposit and Ongoing Commitment:
Salvation is a free gift received by faith. However, following Christ involves a lifetime of discipleship, which requires effort, sacrifice, and perseverance. Philippians 2:12-13 encourages believers to "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." This indicates the ongoing process of sanctification in the life of a believer.

Corrected Statement [your statement]
Salvation is not purchased or earned but is freely given by God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). However, discipleship involves counting and paying the cost of following Jesus (Luke 14:27-28). Paul’s mention of "filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions" (Colossians 1:24) refers to his participation in Christ's mission, not implying insufficiency in Christ's suffering. We are called to value and seek after truth diligently (Proverbs 23:23) and to be prepared and faithful like the wise virgins with oil for their lamps (Matthew 25:1-13). While the initial deposit of salvation is free, the journey of faith requires ongoing commitment and perseverance (Philippians 2:12-13).

The way I see it and of course, the way you see it.
J.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes...and your one of them, stomping over those to don’t hold to your false doctrine of being Born Of The Spirit.

There you go folks. Being born of the spirit is a bad thing.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Galatians 4:29
But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now

Being born of the spirit must be a bad thing in @Ritajanice mind.


Listen here sis. I do not stomp on people. I share my view. And when I see or hear something I do not agree with, I will discuss with them.

If that hurts you. You’re in the wrong place. And you Definately are not someone who should be any type of encounter team.

You don’t enter God he enters you, when we become Born Of The Spirit.

I never said he I do enter God. That is what people like Epi teaches. But you’re so stuck and angry because I refuse to come to your view. You are looking for anything you can to attack me.

Your just hurting yourself.

If anyone promotes religion it’s you...

Sorry sis, i do not teach I earn salvation by How good I am. I do not teach I get to heaven by how righteous I am.

I teach grace. I thought you thought that also. I guess i was wrong. Because you are defending someone who does believe that. And attacking me.

plus you lead yourself through the written word...anyone can see that in the spirit.

No. God leads me through the written word. That the reason he spend over 2000 years having men put his word together. So he could use that word to lead us through him’

You talk in the flesh all over the forum...

Awww, Poor baby, I do nto agree with you. So I talk in the flesh.

What happened to you?????

and God help anyone who doesn’t believe in you and your mates doctrine..,

Yet you’re the one yelling at me because I refuse to believe your doctrine. And I appose a person who is a cult leader. And has been for many years.

your a clique and you need each other for some reason....I guess to back each other up because of doubt, imo.

Lol. Yep thats you.. You attack anyone who does nto agree with you I have the emails to prove how you talked to me as a brother when I agreed with you and the second i questioned one thing you said, you went off on me..

No one would ever doubt their salvation if they have been Born Of The Spirit..it’s a spiritual birth..

Talk to Epi. He is the one who believes salvation can be lost. Not me.

As for judging you are one of the biggest judge and hypocrite on the forum...now I’m righteously judging you!!..in my opinion of course.

I’ve been building up to speaking this over you and Praise God I finally was able to release it out of my heart/ spirit.....the timing is perfect.

Your reported for your angry nonsensical post..

This post was the post of not a christian. But someone who is angry and not walking in the spirit.

 

[Hepzibah]

Pelagianism, which taught that human beings could achieve salvation through their efforts without divine grace, was deemed heretical.

A lot to go through but for now, I will just say that this belief is incorrect and Pelagius did say that grace is required. He was deemed a heretic because of the efforts of Augustine but later exonerated. I will post an articel I wrote about the dispute between Augustine and Pelagius.

"The person who opened the church door wide too all sorts of error was the Bishop of North Africa, Augustine of Hippo as he departed from the early church teachings on a number of issues and has been one of the greatest influences on the church since, both Catholic and Protestant. Luther and Calvin were the other two, both agreeing with Augustine.

The most significant was his departure from the Free Will doctrine from all the early church fathers to the Deterministic theology of Gnosticism.

“Men are possessed with free will, and endowed with the faculty of making a choice. It is not true, therefore, that some are by nature good, and others bad.” (Irenaeus Against Heresies Book IV, Chapter XXXVII)

“…those ancient writers, in general, say that Manichaeans denied free-will. The reason is, that the Fathers believed, and maintained, against the Manichaeans, that whatever state man is in he has the command over his own actions, and has equally power to do good or evil.” (Beausobre, The Christian Examiner, Volume One, Publishded by James Miller, 1824, Edition, p. 70)

Lyman Beecher said, “…the free will and natural ability of man were held by the whole church… natural inability was to that of the pagan philosophers, the Gnostic’s, and the Manichaeans.” (Lyman Beecher, Views in Theology, Published by Truman and Smith, 1836 Edition, p. 56)

“No reward can be justly bestowed, no punishment can be justly inflicted, upon him who is good or bad by necessity, and not by his own choice.” Tertullian (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan p. 61, Published by Truth in Heart)

Ignatius was another figure in the Early Church. He was a disciple of the Apostle John and was martyred in the Roman Coliseum by being eaten by lions.

“If anyone is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice. …there is set before us life upon our observance [of God’s precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life.” Ignatius (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians Chap 5, Long Version).

“It was not until the fourth century that Gnostic and Manichaean influence started to infiltrate the Christian Church, polluting it with their doctrines. Augustine, after saturating himself in Gnostic philosophy for many years, joined the Church and became a Bishop. He then began to contradict what the Church had always taught on human nature and the freedom of man’s will and taught in accordance with the Gnostic views of human nature and free will. The Church, through the influence of Augustine, began to embrace and teach the doctrine of natural inability.​

It is an undisputed and known fact of history, admitted by Augustine’s admirers and supporters in their historical accounts of his life, that Augustine was influenced by, and a member of, the Manichaean Gnostic sect. John K. Ryan, in his introduction to “The Confessions of Saint Augustine” said, “The two great intellectual influences upon Augustine prior to his conversion were Manicheism and Greek Philosophy.” (John K. Ryan The Confessions of Saint Augustine, Random House, Inc., 1960, p. 23)

In their introduction to “The Confessions of Augustine,” John Gibb and William Montgomery said, “In the same year in which he read the Scriptures and was disappointed in them, Augustine joined the Manichaean sect…” (John Gibb and William Montgomery ‘The Confessions of Augustine,’ University Press, 1908,).

They also said, “For nearly nine years Augustine was a Manichaean Auditor. At first he was a zealous partisan who contended publicly for his new faith, and did not hesitate to ridicule the doctrines of the Church and especially the Old Testament Scriptures…” (John Gibb and William Montgomery (The Confessions of Augustine, University Press, 1908, p. xxxii)

​

 

[Johann]

A lot to go through but for now, I will just say that this belief is incorrect and Pelagius did say that grace is required. He was deemed a heretic because of the efforts of Augustine but later exonerated. I will post an articel I wrote about the dispute between Augustine and Pelagius.

"The person who opened the church door wide too all sorts of error was the Bishop of North Africa, Augustine of Hippo as he departed from the early church teachings on a number of issues and has been one of the greatest influences on the church since, both Catholic and Protestant. Luther and Calvin were the other two, both agreeing with Augustine.

The most significant was his departure from the Free Will doctrine from all the early church fathers to the Deterministic theology of Gnosticism.

“Men are possessed with free will, and endowed with the faculty of making a choice. It is not true, therefore, that some are by nature good, and others bad.” (Irenaeus Against Heresies Book IV, Chapter XXXVII)

“…those ancient writers, in general, say that Manichaeans denied free-will. The reason is, that the Fathers believed, and maintained, against the Manichaeans, that whatever state man is in he has the command over his own actions, and has equally power to do good or evil.” (Beausobre, The Christian Examiner, Volume One, Publishded by James Miller, 1824, Edition, p. 70)

Lyman Beecher said, “…the free will and natural ability of man were held by the whole church… natural inability was to that of the pagan philosophers, the Gnostic’s, and the Manichaeans.” (Lyman Beecher, Views in Theology, Published by Truman and Smith, 1836 Edition, p. 56)

“No reward can be justly bestowed, no punishment can be justly inflicted, upon him who is good or bad by necessity, and not by his own choice.” Tertullian (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan p. 61, Published by Truth in Heart)

Ignatius was another figure in the Early Church. He was a disciple of the Apostle John and was martyred in the Roman Coliseum by being eaten by lions.

“If anyone is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice. …there is set before us life upon our observance [of God’s precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life.” Ignatius (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians Chap 5, Long Version).

“It was not until the fourth century that Gnostic and Manichaean influence started to infiltrate the Christian Church, polluting it with their doctrines. Augustine, after saturating himself in Gnostic philosophy for many years, joined the Church and became a Bishop. He then began to contradict what the Church had always taught on human nature and the freedom of man’s will and taught in accordance with the Gnostic views of human nature and free will. The Church, through the influence of Augustine, began to embrace and teach the doctrine of natural inability.​

It is an undisputed and known fact of history, admitted by Augustine’s admirers and supporters in their historical accounts of his life, that Augustine was influenced by, and a member of, the Manichaean Gnostic sect. John K. Ryan, in his introduction to “The Confessions of Saint Augustine” said, “The two great intellectual influences upon Augustine prior to his conversion were Manicheism and Greek Philosophy.” (John K. Ryan The Confessions of Saint Augustine, Random House, Inc., 1960, p. 23)

In their introduction to “The Confessions of Augustine,” John Gibb and William Montgomery said, “In the same year in which he read the Scriptures and was disappointed in them, Augustine joined the Manichaean sect…” (John Gibb and William Montgomery ‘The Confessions of Augustine,’ University Press, 1908,).

They also said, “For nearly nine years Augustine was a Manichaean Auditor. At first he was a zealous partisan who contended publicly for his new faith, and did not hesitate to ridicule the doctrines of the Church and especially the Old Testament Scriptures…” (John Gibb and William Montgomery (The Confessions of Augustine, University Press, 1908, p. xxxii)

​

Doesn't matter, what do YOU say as it stands written in Scriptures?
@Hepzibah

 

[Lizbeth]

You are conflating-

Your statement touches on important aspects of discipleship and the cost of following Christ. However, it conflates the free gift of salvation with the ongoing process of discipleship and sanctification. Let's correct and clarify this with appropriate scriptures.

Correcting the Statement with Scriptures
Salvation is a Free Gift:

Salvation is entirely by grace through faith and not something that can be purchased or earned. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes this clear: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
The Cost of Discipleship:

While salvation is a free gift, following Jesus involves counting the cost and making sacrifices. Jesus said in Luke 14:27-28, "And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?"

Suffering for Christ:

The phrase "filling up that which is behind of the sufferings of Christ" comes from Colossians 1:24, where Paul says, "Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church."

This does not imply that Christ's sufferings were insufficient for salvation, but that Paul shares in the sufferings for the sake of the church, participating in the mission and struggle of spreading the gospel.
Buying the Truth:

Proverbs 23:23 states, "Buy the truth and do not sell it—wisdom, instruction and insight as well." This metaphor emphasizes the value and importance of truth, wisdom, and instruction, suggesting that we should seek and hold on to them diligently. It does not imply a transactional purchase but rather the dedication and commitment required to obtain and retain spiritual wisdom.

Parable of the Ten Virgins:

The parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 illustrates the importance of being prepared and vigilant, symbolized by the oil for their lamps. While the wise virgins brought extra oil, representing their preparedness and continuous faithfulness, this should not be interpreted as a purchase of salvation. The "oil" can be seen as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit and the ongoing relationship with God, cultivated through a life of faith and obedience.

Synthesizing These Concepts
Initial Deposit and Ongoing Commitment:
Salvation is a free gift received by faith. However, following Christ involves a lifetime of discipleship, which requires effort, sacrifice, and perseverance. Philippians 2:12-13 encourages believers to "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." This indicates the ongoing process of sanctification in the life of a believer.

Corrected Statement [your statement]
Salvation is not purchased or earned but is freely given by God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). However, discipleship involves counting and paying the cost of following Jesus (Luke 14:27-28). Paul’s mention of "filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions" (Colossians 1:24) refers to his participation in Christ's mission, not implying insufficiency in Christ's suffering. We are called to value and seek after truth diligently (Proverbs 23:23) and to be prepared and faithful like the wise virgins with oil for their lamps (Matthew 25:1-13). While the initial deposit of salvation is free, the journey of faith requires ongoing commitment and perseverance (Philippians 2:12-13).

The way I see it and of course, the way you see it.
J.

I didn't think I was arguing with you on this, just discussing. But the point is that it costs us everything. The rich man was told to sell all that he had.....the man sold everything he had to buy the field with the pearl buried there....the man building the tower needed to see that he had enough to finish it....by the end of our "building" we will have laid down all that we have and are to the Lord. (I don't think I'm arguing with you about that either as far as I know. :) )

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Are you being serious..you do nothing but attack members if their belief doesn’t line up with yours.

I do not know what I did to you. But your acting unreasonable.

You should step away for awhile.. I am being serious

You spiritual understanding is all over the place..

“ ME” is not Born Of The Spirit..

Yes, I WAS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.

That whihc is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the spirit is spirit.

I WAS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.

You need heart/ spirit revelation to know that “ ME” isn’t Born Again.

You need to open up and stop being so angry, and trying to refute me at all cost. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever I never said ME. I said I was born of the spirit.

If you don;t like that, thats fine. Just say you do not agree, STOP ATTACKING ME

One knows they are Born Of The Spirit in their heart/ spirit ..not in their human understanding and intellect..

Agreed

Stay strong @Episkopos ...you will if you have the backing of Gods Holy Spirit.

lol. Now you’re enabling him. HE TEACHES LEGALISM, HE REJECTS YOUR GOSPEL 100%

God is very long suffering, but when he sees all this finger pointing at others yet can’t see into their own / heart / spirit..then something needs to be said and I’m only to willing to be God’s spokesperson.

Yes, He sees you finger point to anyone who does not agree with you

This is a chat room. Not everyone will agree, If they d not agree, and share that disagreement, its not finger pointing.

once again, You need to step away. Your anger is out of hand. I am speaking as a brother here

 

[Hepzibah]

"Resistible Grace ( refuting calvinisms " I " irresistible grace )

Acts 7:51

“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.


Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.


Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!


Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,


Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."



Limited Atonement ( the " L " in tulip )


John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.


Loraine Boettner ( a Calvinist scholar ) has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,


"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."


1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51

2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2

3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages . John 1:12 John 3:16
Romans 9 is one passage in scripture, there are many scriptures to look over when making a decision on who God is, and who God is not. When looking at Romans 9, you need to look over all revelation from the Bible. The vast majority of biblical text tells us that "choosing the right, over wrong" is vitally important to the destiny we have. I will present one of my favorite scriptures on this. Cain. No one can disagree that Cain was called a child of the devil due to his rejection of God, and the killing of his brother. As we see here:

1Jn 3:12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.


As a Calvinist you would say Cain never had a chance, that he was "Predestined for Destruction". But that is not what God said, and we know God is no lier. God said to Cain:

Gen 4:6-7 So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

Now I ask you, according to God:

• Did Cain have a chance, if he did well?​
• Did God lie to Cain?​

Please answer those questions. It also makes more logical sense that God would give light to all people, and based upon their acceptance or rejection of the light grant salvation:

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

It is truly, that Cain's "works were evil and his brother's righteous". Not that Cain was destined by God's sovereign choice to hell. As the bible says:

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!"

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

Yet you would say God does take pleasure in their death, that He in fact planned it, to display His wrath, people given no choice, no chance. Hopeless at the hand of a brutal God. Think about your theology before swallowing a handful of scriptures.

Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38, Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat_23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (
Rom_2:4, Rom_2:5, Rom_2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

 

[Hepzibah]

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat_5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk_21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk_6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk_12:45, Luk_12:46; Mat_24:48, Mat_24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co_6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe_2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph_4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph_4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co_6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew. (Cont.)


Chap. LXXXVIII. — Christ Has Not Received the Holy Spirit on Account of Poverty.


For God, wishing both angels and men, who were endowed with freewill, and at their own disposal, to do whatever He had strengthened each to do, made them so, that if they chose the things acceptable to Himself, He would keep them free from death and from punishment; but that if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit.

 

[Hepzibah]

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 1-25


Chap. X. — How God Is to Be Served.

But we have received by tradition that God does not need the material offerings which men can give, seeing, indeed, that He Himself is the provider of all things. And we have been taught, and are convinced, and do believe, that He accepts those only who imitate the excellences which reside in Him, temperance, and justice, and philanthropy, and as many virtues as are peculiar to a God who is called by no proper name. And we have been taught that He in the beginning did of His goodness, for man’s sake, create all things out of unformed matter; and if men by their works show themselves worthy of this His design, they are deemed worthy, and so we have received — of reigning in company with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering. For as in the beginning He created us when we were not, so do we consider that, in like manner, those who choose what is pleasing to Him are, on account of their choice, deemed worthy of incorruption and of fellowship with Him. For the coming into being at first was not in our own power; and in order that we may follow those things which please Him, choosing them by means of the rational faculties He has Himself endowed us with, He both persuades us and leads us to faith.


Ch 56-50


Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Barabus - Epistle 2 Chap. XIII. — Christians, and Not Jews, the Heirs of the Covenant.

But let us see if this people134 is the heir, or the former, and if the covenant belongs to us or to them. Hear ye now what the Scripture saith concerning the people. Isaac prayed for Rebecca his wife, because she was barren; and she conceived. (Gen_25:21) Furthermore also, Rebecca went forth to inquire of the Lord; and the Lord said to her, “Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples in thy belly; and the one people shall surpass the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Gen_25:23) You ought to understand who was Isaac, who Rebecca, and concerning what persons He declared that this people should be greater than that. And in another prophecy Jacob speaks more clearly to his son Joseph, saying, “Behold, the Lord hath not deprived me of thy presence; bring thy sons to me, that I may bless them.” (Gen_48:11, Gen_48:9) And he brought Manasseh and Ephraim, desiring that Manasseh135 should be blessed, because he was the elder. With this view Joseph led him to the right hand of his father Jacob. But Jacob saw in spirit the type of the people to arise afterwards. And what says [the Scripture]? And Jacob changed the direction of his bands, and laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, the second and younger, and blessed him. And Joseph said to Jacob, “Transfer thy right hand to the head of Manasseh,135 for he is my first-born son.” (Gen_48:18) And Jacob said, “I know it, my son, I know it; but the elder shall serve the younger: yet he also shall be blessed.” (Gen_48:19) Ye see on whom he laid136 [his hands], that this people should be first, and heir of the covenant. If then, still further, the same thing was intimated through Abraham, we reach the perfection of our knowledge. What, then, says He to Abraham? “Because thou hast believed,137 it is imputed to thee for righteousness: behold, I have made thee the father of those nations who believe in the Lord while in [a state of] uncircumcision.” (Gen_15:6, Gen_17:5; comp. Rom_4:3)" (writer unknown)