Catholic tradition, not the Bible, teaches a change to Sundaykeeping.

[Wrangler]

Calling it sacred, and declaring it a replacement for the sabbath is.

Hmmm, no. Don't confuse WHAT people worship with HOW they worship.

 

[Grailhunter]

While you and I may differ by a few decades, I think I said essentially this in Post #52. Assigning Constantine "nothing to do" with establishing Sunday as the Lord's Day is a bit strong, but your chronological point is well taken.

Still, I have to agree with Aunty Jane that Sun God symbolism has infiltrated a bit. She ties that to the Lord's Day origin, while I think it is a later adornment.

But she and I were having a civil discussion on it, not calling each other "liar," I'm convinced your use of the word s too harsh ere. a "Liar" KNOWS he or she is spewing untruths. Unless you are a mind reader, your accusation is faulty.

I have a long explanation for this but here is the short of it…
Keeping in mind that no matter what day of week was pick, it would still represent a pagan god because all of the days of the week are named after pagan gods.

What I said in my post is exactly right.
The Lord’s Day and the Canon list of books was already set, the Ecumenical Councils just agreed with them. Emperor Constantine had nothing to do with setting the Lord’s Day on Sunday. His involvement with it was enforcing the weekly holiday on the same day so commerce was not shutdown twice a week.

Holidays were a different matter. The council of Nicaea set the date for Easter, mostly in agreement with the Christian leaders present.

Emperor Constantine and probably his mother set the date for Christmas…. December 25. Saturnalia is on December 17 so Christmas was not set to celebrate this holiday. And the Christmas tree did not arrive on scene until 17th century, particularly in the US where it became popular as we know it around 1820. Before that there was a Paradise Tree but it was not the same or had the same tradition.

Now for the rest of the holidays there was effort to set the Christian and Pagan holidays on the same day so the empire was not shutdown so often.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

God's Word is what points it out, you must choose which to follow..

We do. The below verse is about as plain as it gets. Colossians 2:16 New International Version
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.


But if that verse is not enough there are others. Such as the entire Chapter of Acts 15, the fact that the Sabbath was given to the Jews as part of the Mosaic covenant and not to anyone else as the Jews themselves testify. We are told in the book of James 2:10 KJV: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." This is why we have a new covenant rather than selective OT law keeping.


It is also really rich you saying your Church's teaching is just from scripture when we know it is not! The Great Controversy, The Desire of Ages and other books that make up "The Great Controversy" narrative are not scripture or infallible, far from it. Yet you read the Bible through them, as well as the other revelations of your pioneers like Hiram Edson and his famous cornfield vision that started everything. What is really galling is what led you to the Great Controversy in the first place. It was William Miller and all your early founders ignoring scriptures against date setting and the alike such as:

Matthew 24:36
New King James Version
No One Knows the Day or Hour
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [a]heaven, but My Father only.

Revelation 16:15
15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)

1 Thessalonians 5:2
2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.



This was all blatantly ignored by the Millerites and later rationalized by the post-Millerite movement that would become "The Little Flock", making Miller a hero, who just made a mistake. But that was not just a little one, people actually committed suicide over that (the pickle they got themselves and their families into by prematurely selling of their homes, farmland etc. believing Christ was about to return). This actually reminds me of two Biblical passages.

1 Timothy 1:19
KJ21
holding faith and a good conscience which some, having put aside, have suffered shipwreck concerning faith.

Jude 13​

​

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


These passages remind of not just The Great Disappointment but also the Israel Dammon incident.

Israel Dammon trial - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Wrangler]

We do. The below verse is about as plain as it gets. Colossians 2:16 New International Version
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.


But if that verse is not enough there are others. Such as the entire Chapter of Acts 15, the fact that the Sabbath was given to the Jews as part of the Mosaic covenant and not to anyone else as the Jews themselves testify. We are told in the book of James 2:10 KJV: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." This is why we have a new covenant rather than selective OT law keeping.

I liked this part of your post. The rest seemed to go off topic.

 

[RedFan]

Keeping in mind that no matter what day of week was pick, it would still represent a pagan god because all of the days of the week are named after pagan gods.

In Latin, not in Greek. Not in Syriac. Not in Coptic. What's your point?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think you are in denial. Your nation calls the 1st day of the week Sunday, don't they?

What my nation (and yours) calls the days of the week, and the months of the year were set by Pope Gregory in the 16th century....he was a counterfeit “Christian” leader of an apostate church. Not our call, Wrangler....we are “no part of the world” so we have no say in what the world wants to call anything.

"Partnering" means something other than recognizing the culture that you are in. Gross misapplication of Scripture.

“Partnering”? How do you reconcile 2 Cor 6:14-18...?
“Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial [the devil]? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord,and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me,says the Lord Almighty.” (ESV)......with the Scripture you quoted below....?

A “separation” between the truth of God’s word and the “unclean” pagan practices of the nations was commanded by God himself. In order to become an adopted ‘son or daughter’ of God, we had to stay clear of those (spiritually) “unclean” practices, not adopt them like lost puppies, whom you seem to welcome after a bath and a change of name...but God saw the originals....he hated them then...and he hates them still....no matter what you call them.

Yes. I think God approves. 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

Well that’s an interesting take on that scripture seeing as how it is also from Paul.
Did he contradict himself.....would he do so?

“For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.” (ESV)

What was Paul saying as opposed to what you want him to be saying, to back up your position?
In real terms, how was Paul demonstrating that he could be “all things to all people”?

If those “under Law” were put off by its abandonment in the Christian arrangement, Paul presented himself as one who still lived “under Law” so that he could approach them as fellow Jews. He was Jewish after all...and a Pharisee to boot.

Those “outside the law” were Gentiles, and as Paul was no longer “under Law” he could eat with those Gentiles things considered “unclean” to a Jew. He did not have to attend the synagogue and go through all the Jewish rituals (as some do even to this day) because he was no longer bound by Law. He identified with those people of the nations, and joined in things that were not now, unlawful to God.

To those who were weak in faith and not complying with the teachings of the Pharisees, he identified with them too, even expounding on his own weaknesses to make them feel at ease with him.

He was “all things to all people”, but never at the expense of transgressing God’s commands through his Christ.
Talk about a gross misrepresentation of Scripture.....

You're ridiculous! It is NO kind of religious practice to recognize the language in the culture I'm from uses a certain word for the 1st day of the week!

That is not the issue and you know it.....you are shifting the goalposts.
We are not just talking about the names of days of the week....

Sunday was never “the Lord’s day”.....that was yet future when Christ as King, would rule over earthly subjects and bring God’s first purpose back to redeemed humanity. His first purpose never included taking humans to heaven....but he made that provision for our benefit....to bring us back to him under the guidance of those who have lived in the flesh....and who know what sin is, and to lead sinful humans back to God, till the sin in our DNA is eradicated altogether....we will have a thousand years to get back what we lost, in peaceful surroundings, unassailed by the devil and his minions, who are confined in a deep dark prison.

 

[Aunty Jane]

While you and I love history must don't know and don't care. What matters to them is now and now Christ was always part of Christmas - even though that date was originally celebrated for a different reason from the culture the establishment of Christmas came from.

Is it what matters to humans that counts? Isn’t what matters to God more important than doing what he forbids because it feels good?
Will we be excused for doing that? 2 Cor 6:14-18 answers that question. “Touch nothing unclean”....all pagan religious practice is “unclean”.

You joylessly write as though to be a Christian means to be divorced from the culture around you.

Go back to the first century and understand that this is exactly what it means.....the Gentiles who came to Christ had to put away every vestige of their former religion and its practices...and implement what Christ instructed them to do. A complete divorce from their culture and the adoption of a new one was required.

It is a great joy for kids to get gifts on Christmas and candy on Easter. Somehow, you rationalize this joyous celebration is sinful. This is not of the Spirit. Gal 5:18-21.

Are you serious? Can you not see that today’s children don’t see Christ in Christmas, any more than they see him in Easter celebrations. All they see is Santa Claus, presents and favourite foods......and Easter bunnies delivering chocolate eggs. All the pagan stuff is still there, but Christ is missing because he was never in those celebrations to begin with.

You act as if these times are the only ones that you can share with your family, or occasions to give gifts.
What prevents anyone from celebrating the good things in their life without a worldly excuse?
These yearly rituals are a form of slavery to the commercial and religious systems....if you can’t see that, then you are more blind than I thought.

When my son was at school, the other kids used to envy him because he didn’t have to wait for birthdays or Christmas to receive gifts.....we gave him presents throughout the year for no other reasons than we loved him. By the time those children received their presents the fad was over and they didn’t appreciate them....these days Christmas especially has become a financial burden for many, some who haven’t paid off last years debt to finance this year’s expenditure.....it’s a slavery you can dispense with.....see it for what it is....and stop promoting it.....teach the children to appreciate that presents don’t need a reason...especially not a commercial one, where poor kids are left to wonder why Santa is so generous to the rich kids and so mean to them....what’s the message? Anything Christian about that?

 

[Grailhunter]

In Latin, not in Greek. Not in Syriac. Not in Coptic. What's your point?

Not exactly sure of your point.

The Babylonians are thought to have been the first to name the days of the week around 12th century BC. They divided the year into seven-day weeks to track the phases of the moon, and named the days after the seven celestial bodies they could see in the sky: the Sun, Moon, Mars, Venus, Mercury, Saturn, and Jupiter.

The Babylonians' system was later adopted by the Romans, who used it for centuries in their civil practices. In 321 CE, Emperor Constantine established the seven-day week in the Roman calendar, making Sunday the first day and designating it a day of rest and worship. The other days were named after the celestial bodies, with the exception of Monday, which was called "Moon's-day".

The names of the days of the week have varied across cultures and civilizations over time. For example, the Greeks named the days after their gods, and the Romans replaced the Greek names with their own gods. The Anglo-Saxons then replaced the Roman names with their own gods, and some of these names are still used in English today:

Thursday: Comes from the Old English word Þūnresdæg, which is named after Thor, the Norse god of thunder, strength, and protection

Friday: Comes from the Old English word Frīgedæg, which may be named after Frigg, the Norse goddess of love and the heavens, or Freya, the Teutonic goddess of love and beauty

Monday: Comes from the Anglo-Saxon word Mōnandæg, which means "the moon's day"

 

[Brakelite]

Hmmm, no. Don't confuse WHAT people worship with HOW they worship.

When one deliberately alters the word of God, even a commandment, and replaces it with something of their own devising, they are placing their own authority above God's authority. How is that not a transgression against the 1st and 2nd commandment?

 

[Brakelite]

They divided the year into seven-day weeks to track the phases of the moon

The Babylonians were the first to divide the year into 7 day weeks? Interesting. I suppose then that makes the sabbath a Babylonian celebration?

 

[Grailhunter]

The Babylonians were the first to divide the year into 7 day weeks? Interesting. I suppose then that makes the sabbath a Babylonian celebration?

LOL
Of course the Jewish dating system is different.

 

[Brakelite]

LOL
Of course the Jewish dating system is different.

I would suggest somewhat more than different. How about original?

 

[Grailhunter]

I would suggest somewhat more than different. How about original?

Definitely the original dating system in the Old Testament

 

[Johann]

Definitely the original dating system in the Old Testament

Nisan (March-April)
This is the first month of the Jewish calendar, marking the beginning of the year in terms of religious festivals. Nisan is most famous for Passover (Pesach), which commemorates the Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt. It's a month of freedom and renewal, and traditionally, spring cleaning originates from the preparation for Passover.

2. Iyyar (April-May)
Iyyar is a quieter month compared to Nisan, but it’s significant for counting the Omer, the 49 days between Passover and Shavuot. This is a time of spiritual reflection, and each day is counted in anticipation of receiving the Torah at Mount Sinai.

3. Sivan (May-June)
Sivan is highlighted by the festival of Shavuot, which celebrates the giving of the Torah to the Israelites at Mount Sinai. It's a time for studying Torah, eating dairy foods, and reflecting on the spiritual significance of the Torah in daily life.

4. Tammuz (June-July)
Tammuz begins a period of mourning in the Jewish calendar, starting with the 17th of Tammuz, a fast day commemorating the breach of the walls of Jerusalem before the destruction of the Second Temple. It marks the beginning of the Three Weeks, leading up to Tisha B’Av.

5. Av (July-August)
Av is a heavy month in Jewish tradition due to Tisha B’Av, the saddest day of the Jewish calendar. This day mourns the destruction of both the First and Second Temples in Jerusalem. Despite its somber tone, Av ends on a hopeful note, with the building anticipation of renewal.

6. Elul (August-September)
Elul is a month of introspection and preparation for the High Holy Days. It's a time to reflect, repent, and seek forgiveness. Traditionally, the shofar (ram's horn) is blown every morning during this month to awaken people spiritually.

7. Tishri (September-October)
Tishri is the most significant month, packed with the High Holy Days: Rosh Hashanah (the Jewish New Year), Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), and Sukkot (the Feast of Tabernacles). It's a time of new beginnings, intense reflection, and joy as people renew their connection with God and their community.

8. Cheshvan (October-November)
Cheshvan, sometimes called Mar-Cheshvan ("bitter Cheshvan"), has no major holidays, which can feel like a spiritual letdown after Tishri. However, this month gives people time to internalize the spiritual gains from the previous month.

9. Kislev (November-December)
Kislev brings light into the darkness with Hanukkah, the Festival of Lights, celebrating the rededication of the Second Temple and the miracle of the oil that burned for eight days. It’s a time of hope, miracles, and dedication.

10. Tevet (December-January)
Tevet includes the last days of Hanukkah, but also a fast day on the 10th of Tevet, commemorating the beginning of the siege of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, leading to the destruction of the First Temple.

11. Shevat (January-February)
Shevat is known for Tu Bishvat, the New Year for Trees. It’s a time to celebrate nature and the environment, often by planting trees and eating fruits, particularly those associated with the Land of Israel, like figs, dates, and pomegranates.

12. Adar (February-March)
Adar is the most joyful month of the Jewish calendar, culminating in Purim, which celebrates the saving of the Jewish people in Persia as recorded in the Book of Esther. It’s a time of feasting, merriment, costumes, and giving to those in need.

Each month carries its unique energy and significance, contributing to the cyclical rhythm of Jewish life. The Jewish calendar isn’t just a way to mark time; it’s deeply intertwined with spiritual growth, community, and history.

From--

Biblical References: Many of the months and their associated festivals are rooted in the Torah (e.g., Nisan with Passover in Exodus 12, Tishri with Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur in Leviticus 23).

Rabbinic Literature: The Talmud and other rabbinic writings discuss the significance of these months and the associated holidays (e.g., the Talmud's discussions on the fasts of Tammuz and Av, and the joy of Adar).

Jewish Customs and Traditions: The practical observances and customs related to each month are drawn from Jewish communal life, as preserved through centuries of tradition.

Contemporary Jewish Resources: Modern Jewish encyclopedias, educational resources like Chabad.org, and other Jewish organizations often summarize the religious and cultural significance of the months.

Just my 2 cents.
J.

 

[Brakelite]

Further to the above discussion, Moses wrote all the history of the patriarchs. Nothing was written by Abraham, Isaac, or anyone before them, until Moses. So no-one mentioned in genesis recorded any of the history up till the time of the exodus. Also, I think it reasonable to assume that Moses didn't commit anything to writing until after Sinai. What he recorded first were the words and instructions of the law (Deut...Levit... etc) as written on parchment and placed in the side of the ark. Yet that wasn't the first. The first thing actually recorded and given were the tables of the Covenant, the Ten Commandments, written by God Himself with His own finger on the stone. And in the middle of that law was the sabbath commandment, revealing the origin of the week being not of the Jews, nor the Babylonians, but God Himself, when He said,
“8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. ”
Exodus 20:8-11 KJV
Right there in God's own words, He declared the origin of the week.

 

[Johann]

Further to the above discussion, Moses wrote all the history of the patriarchs. Nothing was written by Abraham, Isaac, or anyone before them, until Moses. So no-one mentioned in genesis recorded any of the history up till the time of the exodus. Also, I think it reasonable to assume that Moses didn't commit anything to writing until after Sinai. What he recorded first were the words and instructions of the law (Deut...Levit... etc) as written on parchment and placed in the side of the ark. Yet that wasn't the first. The first thing actually recorded and given were the tables of the Covenant, the Ten Commandments, written by God Himself with His own finger on the stone. And in the middle of that law was the sabbath commandment, revealing the origin of the week being not of the Jews, nor the Babylonians, but God Himself, when He said,
“8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. ”
Exodus 20:8-11 KJV
Right there in God's own words, He declared the origin of the week.

I'm not really following this discussion between you two re the the Sabbath/-s

Mat_12:5 Or have you not read in the Torah that on Shabbos the kohanim in the Beis Hamikdash commit Chillul HaYom HaShabbos (desecration of the Sabbath Day) and yet are blameless? [BAMIDBAR 28:9-10]

To me the gospel is more important and thorough exegesis on the Pauline epistles.
J.

 

[RedFan]

Not exactly sure of your point.

The Babylonians are thought to have been the first to name the days of the week around 12th century BC. They divided the year into seven-day weeks to track the phases of the moon, and named the days after the seven celestial bodies they could see in the sky: the Sun, Moon, Mars, Venus, Mercury, Saturn, and Jupiter.

The Babylonians' system was later adopted by the Romans, who used it for centuries in their civil practices. In 321 CE, Emperor Constantine established the seven-day week in the Roman calendar, making Sunday the first day and designating it a day of rest and worship. The other days were named after the celestial bodies, with the exception of Monday, which was called "Moon's-day".

The names of the days of the week have varied across cultures and civilizations over time. For example, the Greeks named the days after their gods, and the Romans replaced the Greek names with their own gods. The Anglo-Saxons then replaced the Roman names with their own gods, and some of these names are still used in English today:

Thursday: Comes from the Old English word Þūnresdæg, which is named after Thor, the Norse god of thunder, strength, and protection

Friday: Comes from the Old English word Frīgedæg, which may be named after Frigg, the Norse goddess of love and the heavens, or Freya, the Teutonic goddess of love and beauty

Monday: Comes from the Anglo-Saxon word Mōnandæg, which means "the moon's day"

Some cultures named week days after gods. Some did not. Why did you bring it up in our discussion of the Lord's Day origins?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I liked this part of your post. The rest seemed to go off topic.

Off topic in the strict sense, but not in the wider sense. Jesus had a saying towards the Pharisees where he mentioned that they "Strained at Gnats but Swallowed Camels". That saying is extremely true of Seventh Day Adventism if you study the movement from it's earliest days as a part of Miller's movement into them coming their own official movement and Church onward. I actually have a blogging series in mind covering the different milestones of them throughout their history where they seem to be doing their absolute best at times to ignore or disregard Biblical wisdom and principles in favor of their Present Truth revelation.

 

[Wrangler]

Off topic in the strict sense, but not in the wider sense.

Wider sense? This thread is about Catholics not SDA, right?

I think I’ve picked up on some conflict you have with SDA. Did you used to be a SDA?

 

[Wrangler]

Not our call, Wrangler....we are “no part of the world” so we have no say in what the world wants to call anything.

More denial. We, with a soul, are part of and in this world. What Does it Mean to Be in the World but Not of the World? (John 17:16)

And it doesn't answer the fact based question; does your nation call the 1st day of the week Sunday? I suppose being overly spiritual, you prefer think "they" do as you do not count yourself as a member of the nation you belong to. Schizophrenic.