Where was Jesus between his death and resurrection?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

J

Johann

Guest
Ah yes, very good quote

3:3 Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Jn 3:3.

@Johann will Logos do this? Did Logos make the Lord alive? Can you be seperated from Christ?

F2F
Your reasoning appears to be flawed, which I can see reflected in the way the questions are formatted.
I enjoy Ultley on this verse, "one verse theology"


"Rabbi" In John this means "teacher" (cf. John 1:38; 4:31; Mark 9:5; 11:21). One of the things that bothered the Jewish leaders was that Jesus had not attended one of the rabbinical theological schools. He had no Talmudic study after local synagogue study in Nazareth.

"You have come from God" This clause is placed first in the sentence for emphasis. This possibly alludes to the prophecy of Deut. 18:15, 18. Nicodemus recognized the power of Jesus' works and words, but this did not mean he was spiritually right with God.

"unless God is with Him" This is a THIRD CLASS CONDITIONAL SENTENCE which means potential reality.

SPECIAL TOPIC: GREEK GRAMMATICAL TERMS, VII

3:3,5,11 "truly, truly" This is literally "Amen, amen." It is from the OT word for "faith." It is from the root "to be firm" or "to be sure." Jesus used its doubling to preface significant statements. It was also later used as a way of affirming truthful statements. The initial doubling is unique to John's Gospel. These repeated doublings of the term "amen" reveal the stages in the dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus.

SPECIAL TOPIC: AMEN

3:3 "unless one is" This is also a third class conditional sentence, like Nicodemus' statement in John 3:2.

NASB, NKJV, TEV, REB, Peshitta  "born again"
NRSV, NJB  "born from above"
This is AORIST PASSIVE SUBJUNCTIVE. The word (anōthen) can mean

"physically born a second time"
"born from the beginning" (cf. Acts 26:4)
"born from above," which fits this context (cf. John 3:7,31; 19:11)
This is probably another example of John's use of terms that have two meanings (double entendre), both of which are true (cf. Bauer, Arndt, Gengrich and Danker's A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 77). As is obvious from John 3:4, Nicodemus understood it as option # 1. John and Peter (cf. 1 Pet. 1:23) use this familial imagery for salvation as Paul uses the term "adoption." The focus is on the Father's acts in begetting (cf. John 1:13). Salvation is a gift and act of God (cf. John 1:12-13; Rom. 3:21-24; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9).

The footnote to George Lamsa's translation of the Peshitta says, "'Born again' in northern Aramaic, means to change one's thoughts and habits. Nicodemus spoke southern Aramaic and hence, did not understand Jesus."

SPECIAL TOPIC: BORN AGAIN

"he cannot see" This idiomatic phrase is paralleled in John 3:5 with "cannot enter."

"the kingdom of God" This phrase is used only twice in John (cf. John 3:5). This is such a key phrase in the Synoptic Gospels. Jesus' first and last sermons, and most of His parables, dealt with this topic. It refers to the reign of God in human hearts now that will one day be over all the earth (cf. Matt. 6:10)! It is surprising that John uses this phrase only twice (and never in Jesus' parables).

For John the phrase "eternal life" is a key term and imagery for the Kingdom of God.

The phrase relates to the eschatological (end-time) thrust of Jesus' teachings. This "already, but not yet" theological paradox relates to the Jewish concept of two ages, the current evil age and the righteous age to come which will be inaugurated by the Messiah. The Jews expected only one coming of a Sprit-empowered military leader (like the Judges in the OT). The two comings of Jesus caused an overlapping of the two ages. The Kingdom of God has broken into human history with the incarnation at Bethlehem. However, Jesus came not as the military conqueror of Revelation 19, but as the Suffering Servant (cf. Isaiah 53) and humble leader (cf. Zech. 9:9). The Kingdom, therefore, is inaugurated (cf. Matt. 3:2; 4:17; 10:7; 11:12; 12:28; Mark 1:15; Luke 9:2,11; 11:20; 21:31-32) but not consummated (cf. Matt. 6:10; 16:28; 26:64).

Believers live in the tension between these two ages. They have resurrection life, but they still are dying physically. They are freed from the power of sin, yet they still sin. They live in the eschatological tension of the already and the not yet!

A helpful expression of the tension of the already-but-not-yet in John is found in Frank Stagg's New Testament Theology:

"The Gospel of John is emphatic about a future coming (14:3,18 f.,28; 16:16,22) and it speaks clearly of the resurrection and final judgment 'in the last day' (5:28 f.; 6:39 f., 44,54; 11:24; 12:48); yet throughout this Fourth Gospel, eternal life, judgment, and resurrection are present realities (3:18 f.; 4:23; 5:25; 6:54; 11:23 ff.; 12:28,31; 13:31 f.; 14:17; 17:26)" (p. 311).

SPECIAL TOPIC: THIS AGE AND THE AGE TO COME

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE KINGDOM OF GOD

SPECIAL TOPIC: MESSIAH

?JOHN 3:4-8

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: JOHN 3:4-8
4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again. 8The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.'"

3:5 "unless one is born of water and the Spirit" This is another THIRD CLASS CONDITIONAL SENTENCE. There may be a contrast (so typical of John's writings) between

the physical versus the spiritual (no ARTICLE with "spirit")
the earthly versus the heavenly
This contrast is implied in John 3:6.

The theories for the meaning of "water" are

the rabbis use it of male semen
the water of the amniotic sac of child birth
John's baptism symbolizing repentance (cf. John 1:26; 3:23)
the OT background meaning ceremonial sprinkling by the Spirit (cf. Ezek. 36:25-27)
Christian baptism (although Nicodemus could not have understood it that way, first mentioned by Justin and Irenaeus)
In context theory #3, John the Baptist's water baptism and John's statement about the Messiah's baptizing with the Holy Spirit—must be the most obvious meanings. Birth, in this context, is imagery and we must not let Nicodemus' misunderstanding of the terms dominate the interpretation. Therefore, theory #1 is inappropriate. Although Nicodemus would not have understood Jesus' words as referring to later Christian baptism, John the Apostle often interjects his theology into the historical words of Jesus (cf. John 3:14-21).

Theory #2 would fit John's dualism of above and below, God's realm and the earthly realm. In defining these terms one must determine whether they are contrasting (#1 or #2) or complementary (#4).

D. A. Carson, Exegetical Fallacies, mentions another option: that both words refer to one birth, an eschatological birth following Ezek. 36:25-27, which describes the "new covenant" of Jer. 31:31-34 (p. 42).

F. F. Bruce, Answers to Questions, also sees Ezekiel as the OT allusion behind Jesus' words. It may even have been a reference to proselyte baptism, which Nicodemus, a noted rabbinical teacher, must now do! (p. 67).


Are you "up" for the task?

J.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
27,398
14,834
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Clearly you are struggling with 1 Peter 3:18 - I get it!

1 Pet 3:
[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Clearly you upchucking a reference to a Scripture that has not been mentioned as your attempt to use Scripture as a Weapon against me….for your owe failure of understanding….
HAS ZERO application to me.

Your lack of comprehension…is on you.
Your questions when asked have been answered.
Your snarky retorts, tongue wagging, finger pointing and gaslighting WAS obvious when ever first engaging with you, and still obvious…










8:11 Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you Ro 8:11.

Does this help?

The same Spirit which made Christ alive (who was dead!) will also make your dead body alive through God's Spirit which lives in us.

So I ask again

How was Christ made alive by the Spirit?

F2F @Johann

(I imagine J. is searching his commentaries now trying to find a suitable answer!)
[/QUOTE]
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,203
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
1 Pet 3:
[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Clearly you upchucking a reference to a Scripture that has not been mentioned as your attempt to use Scripture as a Weapon against me….for your owe failure of understanding….
HAS ZERO application to me.

Your lack of comprehension…is on you.
Your questions when asked have been answered.
Your snarky retorts, tongue wagging, finger pointing and gaslighting WAS obvious when ever first engaging with you, and still obvious…
What does quickened mean to?

If the Spirit of God quickened Jesus what does that look like? Quickened what?

Does the Word reveal his body & life was quickened by the Spirit?

F2F
 
J

Johann

Guest
This is your problem. Syntax drives your dogma...the wise of this world have been doing this for centuries.
If you were familiar with grammar, syntax, and morphology, you wouldn't have reached the conclusion that Jesus was a created being-yet you seek to correct me?

J.
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,203
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
If you were familiar with grammar, syntax, and morphology, you wouldn't have reached the conclusion that Jesus was a created being-yet you seek to correct me?

I'm highly familiar with all of these litarary devices, but alone they do not drive doctrine.

Show me in the Scripture where these are referred to for arriving at truth?

Here is what the Bible teaches

I'll put up my reference for learning God's wisdom, and you put up yours quoting the need to know grammar, syntax, and morphology.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

From where I stand you are the natural man because you are unable to compare spiritual with spiritual.

Let me explain:

1:3 concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh Ro 1:3.

Why is the power of the Gospel defined as Christ being a descendant of David after the Flesh

Give me the reasons why flesh?

F2F
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
27,398
14,834
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What does quickened mean to?

Do you NOT KNOW HOW TO engage in a conversation…?

“What does quickened mean?” Is a complete thought expressed in a question.

“What does quickened mean to?” Is an incomplete senseless thought expressed …
To What?

Try again…your question is incomplete.


If the Spirit of God quickened Jesus what does that look like?

What does a quickened Jesus “look like”?

Uh…an alIve BODY!

[QUOTE} Quickened what? [/QUOTE]

Uh…that which was Dead…uh…Jesus’ body!

DID you NOT comprehend…when I said… A dead body whose SOUL returns to the body…RESUMES LIVING?

Does the Word reveal his body & life was quickened by the Spirit?

Yes…and gave you a few quotes…and other Scriptures verify….but NOT my JOB to read, study FOR YOU…neither can I UNDERSTAND spiritual things FOR YOU.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,203
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Your reasoning appears to be flawed, which I can see reflected in the way the questions are formatted.
I enjoy Ultley on this verse, "one verse theology"


"Rabbi" In John this means "teacher" (cf. John 1:38; 4:31; Mark 9:5; 11:21). One of the things that bothered the Jewish leaders was that Jesus had not attended one of the rabbinical theological schools. He had no Talmudic study after local synagogue study in Nazareth.

"You have come from God" This clause is placed first in the sentence for emphasis. This possibly alludes to the prophecy of Deut. 18:15, 18. Nicodemus recognized the power of Jesus' works and words, but this did not mean he was spiritually right with God.

"unless God is with Him" This is a THIRD CLASS CONDITIONAL SENTENCE which means potential reality.

SPECIAL TOPIC: GREEK GRAMMATICAL TERMS, VII

3:3,5,11 "truly, truly" This is literally "Amen, amen." It is from the OT word for "faith." It is from the root "to be firm" or "to be sure." Jesus used its doubling to preface significant statements. It was also later used as a way of affirming truthful statements. The initial doubling is unique to John's Gospel. These repeated doublings of the term "amen" reveal the stages in the dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus.

SPECIAL TOPIC: AMEN

3:3 "unless one is" This is also a third class conditional sentence, like Nicodemus' statement in John 3:2.

NASB, NKJV, TEV, REB, Peshitta  "born again"
NRSV, NJB  "born from above"
This is AORIST PASSIVE SUBJUNCTIVE. The word (anōthen) can mean

"physically born a second time"
"born from the beginning" (cf. Acts 26:4)
"born from above," which fits this context (cf. John 3:7,31; 19:11)
This is probably another example of John's use of terms that have two meanings (double entendre), both of which are true (cf. Bauer, Arndt, Gengrich and Danker's A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 77). As is obvious from John 3:4, Nicodemus understood it as option # 1. John and Peter (cf. 1 Pet. 1:23) use this familial imagery for salvation as Paul uses the term "adoption." The focus is on the Father's acts in begetting (cf. John 1:13). Salvation is a gift and act of God (cf. John 1:12-13; Rom. 3:21-24; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9).

The footnote to George Lamsa's translation of the Peshitta says, "'Born again' in northern Aramaic, means to change one's thoughts and habits. Nicodemus spoke southern Aramaic and hence, did not understand Jesus."

SPECIAL TOPIC: BORN AGAIN

"he cannot see" This idiomatic phrase is paralleled in John 3:5 with "cannot enter."

"the kingdom of God" This phrase is used only twice in John (cf. John 3:5). This is such a key phrase in the Synoptic Gospels. Jesus' first and last sermons, and most of His parables, dealt with this topic. It refers to the reign of God in human hearts now that will one day be over all the earth (cf. Matt. 6:10)! It is surprising that John uses this phrase only twice (and never in Jesus' parables).

For John the phrase "eternal life" is a key term and imagery for the Kingdom of God.

The phrase relates to the eschatological (end-time) thrust of Jesus' teachings. This "already, but not yet" theological paradox relates to the Jewish concept of two ages, the current evil age and the righteous age to come which will be inaugurated by the Messiah. The Jews expected only one coming of a Sprit-empowered military leader (like the Judges in the OT). The two comings of Jesus caused an overlapping of the two ages. The Kingdom of God has broken into human history with the incarnation at Bethlehem. However, Jesus came not as the military conqueror of Revelation 19, but as the Suffering Servant (cf. Isaiah 53) and humble leader (cf. Zech. 9:9). The Kingdom, therefore, is inaugurated (cf. Matt. 3:2; 4:17; 10:7; 11:12; 12:28; Mark 1:15; Luke 9:2,11; 11:20; 21:31-32) but not consummated (cf. Matt. 6:10; 16:28; 26:64).

Believers live in the tension between these two ages. They have resurrection life, but they still are dying physically. They are freed from the power of sin, yet they still sin. They live in the eschatological tension of the already and the not yet!

A helpful expression of the tension of the already-but-not-yet in John is found in Frank Stagg's New Testament Theology:

"The Gospel of John is emphatic about a future coming (14:3,18 f.,28; 16:16,22) and it speaks clearly of the resurrection and final judgment 'in the last day' (5:28 f.; 6:39 f., 44,54; 11:24; 12:48); yet throughout this Fourth Gospel, eternal life, judgment, and resurrection are present realities (3:18 f.; 4:23; 5:25; 6:54; 11:23 ff.; 12:28,31; 13:31 f.; 14:17; 17:26)" (p. 311).

SPECIAL TOPIC: THIS AGE AND THE AGE TO COME

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE KINGDOM OF GOD

SPECIAL TOPIC: MESSIAH

?JOHN 3:4-8

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: JOHN 3:4-8
4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again. 8The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.'"

3:5 "unless one is born of water and the Spirit" This is another THIRD CLASS CONDITIONAL SENTENCE. There may be a contrast (so typical of John's writings) between

the physical versus the spiritual (no ARTICLE with "spirit")
the earthly versus the heavenly
This contrast is implied in John 3:6.

The theories for the meaning of "water" are

the rabbis use it of male semen
the water of the amniotic sac of child birth
John's baptism symbolizing repentance (cf. John 1:26; 3:23)
the OT background meaning ceremonial sprinkling by the Spirit (cf. Ezek. 36:25-27)
Christian baptism (although Nicodemus could not have understood it that way, first mentioned by Justin and Irenaeus)
In context theory #3, John the Baptist's water baptism and John's statement about the Messiah's baptizing with the Holy Spirit—must be the most obvious meanings. Birth, in this context, is imagery and we must not let Nicodemus' misunderstanding of the terms dominate the interpretation. Therefore, theory #1 is inappropriate. Although Nicodemus would not have understood Jesus' words as referring to later Christian baptism, John the Apostle often interjects his theology into the historical words of Jesus (cf. John 3:14-21).

Theory #2 would fit John's dualism of above and below, God's realm and the earthly realm. In defining these terms one must determine whether they are contrasting (#1 or #2) or complementary (#4).

D. A. Carson, Exegetical Fallacies, mentions another option: that both words refer to one birth, an eschatological birth following Ezek. 36:25-27, which describes the "new covenant" of Jer. 31:31-34 (p. 42).

F. F. Bruce, Answers to Questions, also sees Ezekiel as the OT allusion behind Jesus' words. It may even have been a reference to proselyte baptism, which Nicodemus, a noted rabbinical teacher, must now do! (p. 67).


Are you "up" for the task?

J.
What a mess J. Surely you can see what you are doing is harming your cause?
The one who is not up for the task is the one copying and pasting volumes of error all over this thread.

1:13—children not born by human parents or by human desire or a husband’s decision, but by God Jn 1:13.

Born by God! Christ and the Children God gives him. John 3:3

F2F
 
J

Johann

Guest
I'm highly familiar with all of these litarary devices, but alone they do not drive doctrine.

Show me in the Scripture where these are referred to for arriving at truth?

Here is what the Bible teaches

I'll put up my reference for learning God's wisdom, and you put up yours quoting the need to know grammar, syntax, and morphology.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

From where I stand you are the natural man because you are unable to compare spiritual with spiritual.

Let me explain:

1:3 concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh Ro 1:3.

Why is the power of the Gospel defined as Christ being a descendant of David after the Flesh

Give me the reasons why flesh?

F2F
Why the need to answer?
According to your logic our Lord Christ Jesus in the Imperfect tense was "a created being" so you make a huge mistake "concerning His Ben who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh"

See what you have done?

This is not rightly dividing the Scriptures.

Shalom
I'm out of here.
J.
 
J

Johann

Guest
What a mess J. Surely you can see what you are doing is harming your cause?
The one who is not up for the task is the one copying and pasting volumes of error all over this thread.

1:13—children not born by human parents or by human desire or a husband’s decision, but by God Jn 1:13.

Born by God! Christ and the Children God gives him. John 3:3

F2F
I just knew you are not up for it.

Why do you think many here do not want to have a conversation with you?

Still wait for other members input on "Messiah was a created being"

J.
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,203
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Do you NOT KNOW HOW TO engage in a conversation…?

“What does quickened mean?” Is a complete thought expressed in a question.

even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive (quickened) together with Christ—by grace you are saved!—2:6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus Eph 2:5–6.

from being dead in transgressions we can be made alive together with Christ.

Can you see how you and Christ share in this quickening of our lives from the dead? What happened to him will happen to those who believe.

Jesus was numbered with the transgressors, as you may know, so it makes sense we are made alive together!

If you beleive an immortal soul returning to a body is quickening, I think you have a few things to consider.

When Christ was quickened he "became" eternal / immortal in mind and body. He did not have immortality in his natural life, but was given "life" from the dead because of his obedience.

By faith we take part in his life, death and resurrection from the dead.

So it makes sense Jesus was completely dead and his life - mind and body was given life.

F2F
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,203
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Why the need to answer?
According to your logic our Lord Christ Jesus in the Imperfect tense was "a created being" so you make a huge mistake "concerning His Ben who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh"

See what you have done?

This is not rightly dividing the Scriptures.

Shalom
I'm out of here.
J.
Why was the power of the Gospel defined as being "a descendant of David with reference to the flesh".

There are two clear reasons given in the Word.

F2F
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,203
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I just knew you are not up for it.

Why do you think many here do not want to have a conversation with you?

Still wait for other members input on "Messiah was a created being"

J.
Let's put this obsession with many books to bed J.

1727355530374.png
See that number in the corner?

9480 books in Logos

Do you know how many of them you copy and paste from, which I have and read?

Possibly most of them!

What value to I give all these works of men?

Little to no value at all...because many of these works are based on the councils of men and have forced their dogma upon the text rather than allowing the Word to give forth its light.

You have not been taught how to do this J.

F2F
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,460
5,217
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.
You’re forgetting vs.18. This was after He was “made alive,” ie., His resurrection.

Jesus was dead for 3 days. Then, on the 3rd day, He was resurrected, ie., “made alive in the spirit.”
No, He was made alive in the spirit and then went to paradise in hell to preach to the people imprisoned down there in hell-sheol.
Clearly this is about dead people who were put to death in the flesh but are still conscious in hell. He is preaching there before God resurrected Christ, which means to but a spirit back into a living body.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
 
J

Johann

Guest
Why was the power of the Gospel defined as being "a descendant of David with reference to the flesh".

There are two clear reasons given in the Word.

F2F
F2F-now tell me I'm wrong here and this will be the last you'll hear from me.

The significance of Jesus being a descendant of David in reference to the flesh is multifaceted, deeply rooted in both Old Testament prophecy and New Testament fulfillment.

1. Fulfillment of Prophecy
Messianic Expectation: The Old Testament contains numerous prophecies regarding the Messiah that indicate He would come from the line of David.

2 Samuel 7:12-13 (NKJV): "When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever."
This promise to David highlights that his descendants would have a significant role in God’s redemptive plan, leading to the establishment of an everlasting kingdom.

2. Scriptural References to Jesus’ Davidic Lineage
Matthew 1:1 (NKJV): "The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham."
The genealogy presented in Matthew explicitly connects Jesus to David, affirming His rightful place as the Messiah.

Luke 1:32-33 (NKJV): "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."
This declaration by the angel Gabriel to Mary shows the promise of Jesus' kingship and His connection to David’s throne.

3. Theological Significance
Incarnation: Jesus' descent from David signifies His full humanity. The doctrine of the Incarnation asserts that God became fully human while remaining fully divine. By being born into the lineage of David, Jesus partook in human experience and fulfillment of God’s promises in the flesh.

Identification with Humanity: Jesus being a descendant of David in the flesh emphasizes His role as a mediator between God and humanity. As a human being, He could relate to human experiences, suffering, and ultimately, death.

Hebrews 2:14-17 (NKJV): "Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."
This passage highlights the necessity of His humanity for the redemption of humanity.


4. Kingship and Authority
Davidic Kingship: Jesus’ Davidic lineage establishes Him as the rightful King in the line of David, fulfilling the promise of an eternal kingdom.

Revelation 22:16 (NKJV): "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."
This affirmation of Jesus as both the root and offspring of David signifies His authority and fulfillment of the covenant made with David.

5. Redemptive Plan
Bringing Salvation: The lineage of David emphasizes God’s faithfulness to His covenant promises. By being born of the house of David, Jesus serves as the fulfillment of God's plan for salvation through the lineage that God chose to use in the unfolding of His redemptive history.

In summary, Jesus being a descendant of David in reference to the flesh is crucial for understanding His identity as the Messiah. This lineage fulfills Old Testament prophecies, emphasizes His humanity and kingship, and shows the faithfulness of God in His redemptive plan. The connection to David not only affirms Jesus' rightful authority as the eternal King but also highlights the significance of His incarnation as the means through which salvation is offered to humanity.

See what you have done-you believe Jesus Christ did not pre-exist but BECAME something God was not before-in the likeness of Benei Adam. You don't believe Jesus is Deity, that you cut out.

The Early Church Fathers (ECF) wrote extensively on the significance of Jesus being a descendant of David, emphasizing its theological implications, its fulfillment of prophecy, and its role in Christ’s identity as the Messiah.

1. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35-107 AD)
Epistle to the Magnesians: Ignatius emphasized the importance of Jesus’ human lineage in affirming His role as the true Messiah. He often highlighted Christ’s incarnation, stating that He was born of the Virgin Mary, aligning with the prophetic lineage of David to fulfill the Scriptures.

2. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130-202 AD)
Against Heresies: Irenaeus made significant arguments concerning the necessity of Christ’s descent from David, asserting that this lineage was essential for fulfilling the prophecies concerning the Messiah. He connected Jesus to the promises made to Abraham and David, emphasizing that Jesus was both fully divine and fully human, which allowed Him to be the true mediator between God and humanity.
He wrote: “For as the Lord said, 'I came to save that which was lost,' He saved that which was lost by becoming like to those whom He saved.” This underscored that Jesus had to share in the human condition through His lineage.

3. Tertullian (c. 155-240 AD)
On the Flesh of Christ: Tertullian argued for the necessity of Jesus' human lineage in defending the truth of the incarnation. He stressed that Jesus’ descent from David validated His claims to be the Messiah and highlighted the divine plan of redemption through a rightful heir of David.
He stated that Jesus “had to be of the stock of David, as it was foretold by the prophets, that He might be truly King and Lord.” This highlights the link between Jesus’ kingship and His Davidic lineage.

4. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD)
Stromata: Clement discussed the significance of Jesus' human lineage, indicating that His birth from the line of David was part of God's providential plan. He emphasized that this lineage established Jesus as a legitimate ruler and fulfilled the covenant promises.
He stated, “He, then, who was God in reality, became man in the reality of our nature, deriving His humanity from the human race.” This reflects on how Jesus’ lineage is pivotal for understanding His role in salvation history.

5. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD)
The City of God: Augustine wrote extensively about the significance of Jesus being of the lineage of David, linking it to God’s promise of an eternal kingdom. He explained how Jesus’ descent from David fulfills the covenant established with David, thus affirming His rightful claim as the King of Kings.
Augustine pointed out that “the Lord is both the son of David and the Lord of David, demonstrating the dual nature of Christ.” This statement illustrates the coexistence of Jesus’ human and divine natures.

All this information freely available at a click of a button and dismissed by you, since we all need to test everything with the written Scriptures-discernment sorely needed to discern error from truth.

J.
 
  • Love
Reactions: JunChosen

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,460
5,217
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.
Acts 2, telling us what happened when Christ died

23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.

27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, [i]according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,

31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,

35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann
J

Johann

Guest
Let's put this obsession with many books to bed J.

View attachment 50274
See that number in the corner?

9480 books in Logos

Do you know how many of them you copy and paste from, which I have and read?

Possibly most of them!

What value to I give all these works of men?

Little to no value at all...because many of these works are based on the councils of men and have forced their dogma upon the text rather than allowing the Word to give forth its light.

You have not been taught how to do this J.

F2F
What a pity! It’s disappointing to see you possess such a valuable tool yet fail to use it effectively. If you knew where to look, you wouldn't have arrived at the erroneous conclusion that Jesus was merely "a created being."

Disappointing indeed F2F.

An aside-I wonder how many here believe as you do?

J.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JunChosen

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,203
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
F2F-now tell me I'm wrong here and this will be the last you'll hear from me.

The significance of Jesus being a descendant of David in reference to the flesh is multifaceted, deeply rooted in both Old Testament prophecy and New Testament fulfillment.

1. Fulfillment of Prophecy
Messianic Expectation: The Old Testament contains numerous prophecies regarding the Messiah that indicate He would come from the line of David.
Correct - the Promise of Royalty was given to David and the promise that one from his family line would sit upon the throne. 2 Samuel 7

The Gospel relates to the Kingdom of Israel and its there hope & promises were have been invited to take part in.
2 Samuel 7:12-13 (NKJV): "When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever."
This promise to David highlights that his descendants would have a significant role in God’s redemptive plan, leading to the establishment of an everlasting kingdom.
Correct!
2. Scriptural References to Jesus’ Davidic Lineage
Matthew 1:1 (NKJV): "The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham."
The genealogy presented in Matthew explicitly connects Jesus to David, affirming His rightful place as the Messiah.

Luke 1:32-33 (NKJV): "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."
This declaration by the angel Gabriel to Mary shows the promise of Jesus' kingship and His connection to David’s throne.
Correct. Christ is yet to sit upon this throne on Earth.
3. Theological Significance
Incarnation: Jesus' descent from David signifies His full humanity. The doctrine of the Incarnation asserts that God became fully human while remaining fully divine. By being born into the lineage of David, Jesus partook in human experience and fulfillment of God’s promises in the flesh.
Here is where you go astray.
Identification with Humanity: Jesus being a descendant of David in the flesh emphasizes His role as a mediator between God and humanity. As a human being, He could relate to human experiences, suffering, and ultimately, death.

Hebrews 2:14-17 (NKJV): "Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."
This passage highlights the necessity of His humanity for the redemption of humanity.

God cannot dwell in sin's flesh!
He also raised up a Son who would be obedient unto death.
What ever you think has the Power of Death is what God removed in His Son.

Also it is "through" death which this power was removed.

How did God remove the law of sin and death through the death of His Son?

If you need references to help let me know!

The rest of your points spoke to the first 2

Notes:

"I am the root and offspring of David"

Christ is Yahweh manifest in flesh (2 Cor 5:19; 1 Tim. 3:16).

1. He is the "root" of David because David's greatness stemmed from the divine purpose and promise to reveal Himself in a Redeemer (Isa. 11:1,10).

2. He is the "offspring" of David, inasmuch as he came in the line of David (Luke 1:32-33; Rom. 1:3-4) for God to remove the law of sin and death by the sacrifice of himself.

J. You need to focus in on the Victory God achieved in His Son. This will be the key to you finding the truth.

F2F
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,460
5,217
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Lord said to my Lord, Lord here is the same greek work Kyrios.


Christ the Lord was in heaven with God in the beginning and had glory with the Father
God sent Christ from heaven
God raised up Christ as it was impossible for death to hold Him as HE is the Lord of life.
God says to His risen Christ sit at my right hand
God then gives all authority and power in heaven and earth to Christ

John 3:13
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
John 6:33
For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Can't be any clearer truth here, that God sent Christ who then came down from heaven, was killed, resurrected and then went back into heaven.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann