Did God Foresee Adam’s Disobedience?

[FaithWillDo]

So, it seems to me you work your way through the Scriptures, pulling certain ones out, that mention rains, or dew, or what have you, and you go through the verse, and change the words to say what you want, and that's your evidence of your doctrine.

You read similies, and even they don't fit quite right, so you change them, and this is what I'm to believe is true? When in fact the plain reading of the Bible refutes these things.

And the "line upon line, precept upon precept", you should read the context in that passage and see what it is really about. Infantile drunks, that God will speak to "line upon line, precept upon precept", so that they'll be snared and will fall on their keisters.

You call this spiritual understanding, however, no true understanding of the Bible will contradict what it says. You know what they say, Words have meanings.

Much love!

Dear marks,
Yes, words have meanings. But there are two kinds of words; carnal words and spirit words.

The carnal words of this world have meanings assigned to them by mankind. The spirit words of Christ have meanings assigned to them by the Holy Spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches (words of this world) but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things (words) with spiritual (words).

As for me "pulling certain ones out", I do this because truth is taught "here a little and there a little". If a person doesn't learn truth in the manner that I have shown you, the truth of God is going to remain veiled.

Joe

 

[marks]

Dear marks,
Yes, words have meanings. But there are two kinds of words; carnal words and spirit words.

The carnal words of this world have meanings assigned to them by mankind. The spirit words of Christ have meanings assigned to them by the Holy Spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches (words of this world) but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things (words) with spiritual (words).

As for me "pulling certain ones out", I do this because truth is taught "here a little and there a little". If a person doesn't learn truth in the manner that I have shown you, the truth of God is going to remain veiled.

Joe

This is not the way to learn truth from the Bible. God did not inspire the men to write one thing, and actually mean something contradictory. Yes, there are spiritual understandings of the Scriptures given by the Holy Spirit, but something you would do well to understand, the Holy Spirit will Never Ever contradict the words He inspired to be written. Not ever!

That would make God false, but God is not false, He is true, men are the liars.

And again, "here a little there a little" is a reference to teaching babies. That's why the Jews were so offended by it. Picking out bits here and there, and rewriting them to fit your ideas is not the way to receive the meat of the Word. One way we sumbit ourselves to God is to accept what He actually wrote in the Scriptures, to obey what He says, and as we do, we will grow into maturity, to eat the meat.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear GodsGrace,
It is apostate believers who practice "religion" and it is Satan who formed it. In this religion, Satan masquerades as Christ and teaches another gospel by another spirit.

Religion: Rilegare
To tie together.

Religion has been given a bad name in Christian circles.
The Jews did not accept Jesus.
So He had to start a new religion.

Now...should we also argue about what religion means and whether or not Christianity is a religion?

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Religion is the attempt to make oneself acceptable to God by one's own works. True Christianity is not a religion because mankind's has no works to perform under the New Covenant of Grace through Faith.

Of course we have works to complete.
You should make sure you know about the NC.

Let's post some verses about good works:

Ephesians 2:8-10
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Many like to forget verse 10.



Matthew 5:16 JESUS SAID:
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Sounds like doing good works give glory to God.



James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

Sounds like a very important question James is asking.

Hebrews 15:16
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.


Are we to listen to those that claim we have nothing to do---
or should we obey what the NT AND JESUS taught?

All the "works" are the works of Christ, both His physical works that He performed under the Old Covenant (the cross) and His spiritual works that He is performing now within the Elect. Christ performs these works solely because of His grace and not because a person does anything to deserve it.

The cross is the Old Covenant?
Study up on the Covenants Faith.

And you don't think we could do anything to deserve salvation?
How about OBEYING JESUS?

Matthew 7:24-27
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You would do well to believe what Paul says above.

Joe

You would do well to read all of Ephesians 2
and also to obey what Jesus taught.

And Paul and all the writers of the NT.

 

[Biblepaige]

Really, I think it's obvious.

God pre-planned Adams,Adamu's, disobedience.

 

[FaithWillDo]

This is not the way to learn truth from the Bible. God did not inspire the men to write one thing, and actually mean something contradictory. Yes, there are spiritual understandings of the Scriptures given by the Holy Spirit, but something you would do well to understand, the Holy Spirit will Never Ever contradict the words He inspired to be written. Not ever!

That would make God false, but God is not false, He is true, men are the liars.

And again, "here a little there a little" is a reference to teaching babies. That's why the Jews were so offended by it. Picking out bits here and there, and rewriting them to fit your ideas is not the way to receive the meat of the Word. One way we sumbit ourselves to God is to accept what He actually wrote in the Scriptures, to obey what He says, and as we do, we will grow into maturity, to eat the meat.

Much love!

Dear marks,
You said:
And again, "here a little there a little" is a reference to teaching babies. That's why the Jews were so offended by it. Picking out bits here and there, and rewriting them to fit your ideas is not the way to receive the meat of the Word. One way we sumbit ourselves to God is to accept what He actually wrote in the Scriptures, to obey what He says, and as we do, we will grow into maturity, to eat the meat.

No, Christ teaches in the manner described in Isa 28:9-12 so that the babes cannot understand and because they cannot understand, they will fall backward, be broken, snared and taken.

As for the Jews who rejected Christ, they were not babes. Babes have the Early Rain of the Spirit and will have faith in Christ. Most of the Jews were not given the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Also, I do not "rewrite" scriptures. I understand them in the manner that scripture teaches a converted believer to understand them.

Also, the only way a babe can grow to maturity is for them to be given the Latter Rain of the Spirit and be converted. Only then will a believer understand the spiritual teachings of Christ so that they can be nourished by them.

Consider Paul's conversion experience. The first paragraph describes Paul receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit and the time he spent as a babe in Christ (and as an apostate believer):

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly, there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Notice that Christ came to Paul without Paul's asking or permission. In fact, Paul hated Christ at that time. But after Paul received the Early Rain of the Spirit, everything changed for Paul. The Spirit changed Paul's heart and mind so that he could no longer reject Christ. Paul's blindness represented his spiritual blindness and this is testified to by the fact that Paul could not eat or drink truth while he remained a babe for three days.

The verse below applies to why Paul was shown being led by the hand:

Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

It was while Paul remained blind and unable to eat or drink that Paul fell into the ditch and became apostate just as all babes in Christ do now.

This second paragraph below describes Paul receiving the Latter Rain of the Spirit and his transition from being a blind and apostate babe into being a child of God.

Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, 12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15 But the Lord said unto him, go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost (Spirit of Truth/Latter Rain). 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith (spiritual understanding), and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

To begin the conversion process for Paul, Christ causes (yes, Christ causes) Paul to be praying for understanding.

These two verses apply:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (the Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Jer 33:3 ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

Just before Christ came to me a second time on Oct. 8th, 2005, Christ likewise caused me to pray for understanding. Christ answered my prayer three days later and poured out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It was then that Christ began showing me my "wickedness" and "great and mighty things". The knowledge of the truth that I received (meat) turned my life upside down. On that day, I experienced spiritual earthquakes, heard thunder, saw lightening and the sun and the moon were darkened. Nothing in my life as been the same since that day. It was the best day of my life bar none.

Back to Paul's conversion. Ananias is a type for Christ. Straight Street is a type for Christ's pathway being made straight. Paul was staying at a house of a man named Judas which is a type for Paul becoming a "man of sin". When Ananias (Christ) arrived, Paul received the Latter Rain of the Spirit and his blindness was healed. Paul was then told to eat meat which strengthened him.

Paul's conversion experience types the pathway that Christ will cause all the Elect to travel before they die.

This verse applies:

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause, I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Joe

 

[marks]

Also, the only way a babe can grow to maturity is for them to be given the Latter Rain of the Spirit and be converted.

This is refuted here:

2 Peter 1:3-4 LITV
3) As His divine power has given to us all things pertaining to life and godliness through the full knowledge of the One calling us through glory and virtue,
4) by which means He has given to us the very great and precious promises, so that through these you might be partakers of the divine nature, escaping from the corruption in the world by lust.

He has already give us all that we need pertaining to life and to godliness. He has already given his very great and precious promises, and it's through these that we may become partakers of the divine nature.

This is plainly given Scripture, with a clear teaching that harmonizes across the Bible. Your doctrine denies this, and is therefore false.

Much love!

 

[FaithWillDo]

Religion: Rilegare
To tie together.

Religion has been given a bad name in Christian circles.
The Jews did not accept Jesus.
So He had to start a new religion.

Now...should we also argue about what religion means and whether or not Christianity is a religion?




Of course we have works to complete.
You should make sure you know about the NC.

Let's post some verses about good works:

Ephesians 2:8-10
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Many like to forget verse 10.



Matthew 5:16 JESUS SAID:
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Sounds like doing good works give glory to God.



James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

Sounds like a very important question James is asking.

Hebrews 15:16
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.


Are we to listen to those that claim we have nothing to do---
or should we obey what the NT AND JESUS taught?



The cross is the Old Covenant?
Study up on the Covenants Faith.

And you don't think we could do anything to deserve salvation?
How about OBEYING JESUS?

Matthew 7:24-27
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”


You would do well to read all of Ephesians 2
and also to obey what Jesus taught.

And Paul and all the writers of the NT.

Dear GodsGrace,
A believer's "good works" are the evidence of their conversion. They happen because of what this verse teaches:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

In other words, the good works that a converted believer does are not their own works, they are the works of Christ that He does through the believer.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us (conversion/salvation), for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us (do of His good pleasure).

You asked:
The cross is the Old Covenant?

The physical work that Christ did which led Him to the cross was performed under the Old Covenant. This work had to be performed so that He would be the perfect and sinless sacrifice (a lamb without spot or blemish) which was required by the Law.

Because Christ's work under the Old Covenant was physical and outward, carnal believers (babes) don't have trouble understanding it. This is why Paul made these statements below to the "babes" in the Corinthian church:

1Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

All babes in Christ are just as carnal and spiritually blind as the Corinthian believers were.

Because the Corinthians were babes who had only been given the Early Rain of the Spirit, Paul also made this statement to them:

1Cor 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you (Early Rain): 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (second coming): 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (Latter Rain), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (judgment of the believer which completes the conversion process).

The "type" taught by the story of the woman taken in adultery (John 8:3-11) is a second witness to when a believer comes out from being under the Law. It happens after they have received the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

In the story, the woman represents mankind and more specifically, Adam and Eve. When Adam and Eve listened to Satan over what Christ had told them, they committed spiritual adultery with Satan. This is what the woman's adultery represented. When the woman is brought to Christ to judge her, He writes in the earth. This represents Christ writing His law of the Spirit in the woman's heart. This is a type for the Early Rain of the Spirit. But after Christ writes in the earth the first time, the Pharisees do not drop their stones (a type for the Law) and leave. Christ then writes in the earth a second time. This is a type for the Latter Rain of the Spirit. After the woman receives the Latter Rain, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave because the Law can no longer accuse the woman. She is now under the blood of Christ and has become a new creation.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

This is refuted here:

2 Peter 1:3-4 LITV
3) As His divine power has given to us all things pertaining to life and godliness through the full knowledge of the One calling us through glory and virtue,
4) by which means He has given to us the very great and precious promises, so that through these you might be partakers of the divine nature, escaping from the corruption in the world by lust.

He has already give us all that we need pertaining to life and to godliness. He has already given his very great and precious promises, and it's through these that we may become partakers of the divine nature.

This is plainly given Scripture, with a clear teaching that harmonizes across the Bible. Your doctrine denies this, and is therefore false.

Much love!

Dear marks,
In the letter, Peter was addressing babes who had the same precious like faith:

1Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

A person obtains their faith when Christ gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit.

But what Peter stated in verses you quoted only apply to converted believers like himself.

If you look down to verse 10, it says this:

1Pet 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

The "calling" is when a person receives the Early Rain. The confirmation of election occurs when they receive the Latter Rain. When a believer is converted, they will "do these things".

Joe

 

[Ritajanice]

Without question God sees the beginning to the end.

He saw that Adam would sin, made a way out for mankind, all according to his purpose and plan.....everything has been ultimately planned by God from the very beginning/ before the foundation of the world.

His plan is perfect, do I understand it, nope, I’m not meant to, I walk in faith trusting in the one I Love....Father God!...In Jesus Name....Amen!

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear GodsGrace,
A believer's "good works" are the evidence of their conversion. They happen because of what this verse teaches:

This is not what you said originally.
In your post no. 119, you stated this:

Religion is the attempt to make oneself acceptable to God by one's own works. True Christianity is not a religion because mankind's has no works to perform under the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. All the "works" are the works of Christ, both His physical works that He performed under the Old Covenant (the cross) and His spiritual works that He is performing now within the Elect. Christ performs these works solely because of His grace and not because a person does anything to deserve it.

You said:
Christianity is not a religion because mankind has no works to perform under the NC of grace through faith.

All the works are the works of Christ.


Man has always had works to perform....as per all the verses I posted.
All the works are of Christ could mean that ONLY Christ has His work cut out for Him while we do nothing.

If you want to change the above to mean that WORKS DO NOT SAVE US WITHOUT FAITH...
then I agree 100%.

Faith without works is a dead faith.
Works without faith are dead works.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

In other words, the good works that a converted believer does are not their own works, they are the works of Christ that He does through the believer.

OK. I understand what you mean and agree.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us (conversion/salvation), for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us (do of His good pleasure).

Agreed. And this is why it's important how we speak and the words we use.

You asked:
The cross is the Old Covenant?

The physical work that Christ did which led Him to the cross was performed under the Old Covenant. This work had to be performed so that He would be the perfect and sinless sacrifice (a lamb without spot or blemish) which was required by the Law.

Again, agreed. The New Covenant did not begin until the death of Jesus.
A testament is valid only after the death of the testator.

Because Christ's work under the Old Covenant was physical and outward, carnal believers (babes) don't have trouble understanding it. This is why Paul made these statements below to the "babes" in the Corinthian church:

Ok. Maybe you could stop using the phrase BABES and start saying carnal believers - which we all understand.

1Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

All babes in Christ are just as carnal and spiritually blind as the Corinthian believers were.

Not sure what you mean. It's getting late here and I'm tired.
Can a person be carnal (yet carnal - verse 3) and still be a believer?

Because the Corinthians were babes who had only been given the Early Rain of the Spirit, Paul also made this statement to them:

1Cor 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you (Early Rain): 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (second coming): 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (Latter Rain), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (judgment of the believer which completes the conversion process).

The above is referring to sanctification.
Do you agree?

"Judgment of the believer completes the conversion process..."
do you mean glorification?

The "type" taught by the story of the woman taken in adultery (John 8:3-11) is a second witness to when a believer comes out from being under the Law. It happens after they have received the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

You're going to have to stop using phrases like the latter rain because I think you're very well versed in theology but insist on using odd language.

Are you saying the woman in adultery was under the law, and then she wasn't?

In the story, the woman represents mankind and more specifically, Adam and Eve. When Adam and Eve listened to Satan over what Christ had told them, they committed spiritual adultery with Satan. This is what the woman's adultery represented. When the woman is brought to Christ to judge her, He writes in the earth. This represents Christ writing His law of the Spirit in the woman's heart. This is a type for the Early Rain of the Spirit. But after Christ writes in the earth the first time, the Pharisees do not drop their stones (a type for the Law) and leave. Christ then writes in the earth a second time. This is a type for the Latter Rain of the Spirit. After the woman receives the Latter Rain, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave because the Law can no longer accuse the woman. She is now under the blood of Christ and has become a new creation.

Joe

Wow. Very good.
Will have to read it again tomorrow when I'm more awake.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Before He ALLOWED it.

OK

Man has free will.
God allows man to use that free will.

Obviously, and on occasions also allows Satan to sabotage proceedings.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Wow. Very good.
Will have to read it again tomorrow when I'm more awake.

Dear GodsGrace,
You said:
This is not what you said originally.

My statements do not contradict each other. God does all the works in us and through us. We repent, we have faith and we make a confession of faith, we do good works BUT it is the Holy Spirit within us who is the one who causes us to "will" and to "do" those things. We can take credit for none of it.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The "things" that God "worketh" include the spiritual things within mankind.

Mankind does not direct their own steps, nor does mankind have a free will ability to make their own decisions. Mankind has a "will" but it is not free.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

One other point on this subject. One of the primary reasons that mankind believes that they have a "free will" is because mankind cannot see, hear, taste or feel the spiritual work that God does within mankind. Mankind's carnality blinds them to it.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the carnality of this world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Though one may argue over the translation of this verse, I believe the translation above conveys it's correct teaching. It is man's carnality that blinds man from sensing the spiritual work that God does within the hearts and minds of mankind. For that reason, it takes faith to believe that God really does direct the steps of mankind.

You said:
Ok. Maybe you could stop using the phrase BABES and start saying carnal believers - which we all understand.

The term "babes" is what scripture uses and I find that using that term usually works the best.

When I use the term "babe" it has a very specific meaning. It means believers who only have been given the Early Rain of the Spirit and who remain carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted. Because of these weakness, all babes will "fall backward, be broken, snared and taken" by Satan.

You asked:
Can a person be carnal (yet carnal - verse 3) and still be a believer?

Yes, all "babes" are carnal and they are believers. This is true because the Early Rain of the Spirit gives a babe a "measure of faith". But because the babes are spiritually blind and carnal, they can and will be deceived by Satan. However, this was not true for the early believers prior to the spirit of anti-Christ coming into the church. When you read the NT letters, you must keep in mind that the babes to whom the letters were written were remaining faithful to Christ (no works). They were able to remain faithful because of the work of the apostles and because the spirit of anti-Christ had not come yet. But all that quickly changed after the death of Paul and the babes in the churches (who are "many") all fall away. They retained their zeal for God but it was not based on knowledge.

Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Though Paul was speaking of Israel in the verse above, it also applies to carnal believers, too, but with one difference. Carnal believers, though they are carnally minded just like Israel, they do have the Early Rain which gives them faith and the ability to see and accept the physical work of Christ that He did at the cross. Israel does not have the Early Rain and will not recognize Jesus as the Christ. But Israel still has zeal for God, its just that they cannot see who God really is. They are totally blind and have been cast into "outer darkness".

You said:
The above is referring to sanctification.
Do you agree?

"Judgment of the believer completes the conversion process..."
do you mean glorification?

Here's the verse again:

1Cor 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you (Early Rain): 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (second coming): 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (Latter Rain), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (judgment of the believer which completes the conversion process).

Here is my understanding: The Early Rain gives a believer "faith". Faith is what justifies a believer. However, after a babe begins mixing in their own works with the works of Christ, they will become "unfaithful" and will no longer be justified. Becoming unfaithful does not mean that they no longer believe in Christ because they still do. They are just are not approaching Christ solely by faith any longer since they are mixing in their own works.

For example: When Israel sent the 12 spies into the Promised Land (represents salvation), 10 of the spies came back with a "bad report" because they didn't believe that they could defeat the giants in the land (represents strongholds of man's carnality). This is a bad report because the 10 spies did not have faith that God would defeat the giants for them (or through them). This is what it means to be unfaithful. The 10 spies were mixing in their own works and faith. The 2 spies (Joshua and Caleb/types for the Elect) that came back with a good report believed that God would defeat the giants. They were ready to cross into the promised and it was based on faith. But since the congregation believed the bad report, God caused the nation to wander in the wilderness for 40 years. This is a type for the church becoming apostate. The number 40 represents a time of tribulation that the apostate church endures. Notice also that Joshua and Caleb had to experience this time of tribulation, also. But because Joshua and Caleb had the good report based on faith, they were the only two to live through the forty years of tribulation and enter the Promised Land (salvation). When Joshua and Caleb crossed the Jordan River, it was a type for them receiving the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

Back to 1Cor 1:16 now. Truth is what sanctifies a believer. The believer is sanctified after they receive the Latter Rain and have their spiritual blindness healed. As they are fed truth by Christ at the marriage supper of the Lamb, Christ is sanctifying them.

Glorification: To be glorified is when someone else gives you glory. Here is when Christ glorified in His saints (the Elect):

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This event is the second coming of Christ when He comes to convert one of His Elect. After He has given the person the Latter Rain and has healed their spiritual blindness, they will see him "face to face". This is when the saints glorify Christ because they can now see Him as He is.

Now for this verse:

Rom 8:30 ...whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And this verse:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Upon the Elect's resurrection from the grave, they will receive their glorious spiritual body and together with Christ, they will reign over the balance of unsaved mankind in the final age. As each "lost" person is converted, both Christ and the Elect will then be glorified by the newly born child of God. This is how Christ and the Elect are glorified together.

If you don't believe that Christ will save ALL mankind before He finishes is work, then you are not going to be able to receive what I stated above. We could discuss this more if you like.

You said:
You're going to have to stop using phrases like the latter rain because I think you're very well versed in theology but insist on using odd language.

My answer to "babes" applies here.

You said:
Are you saying the woman in adultery was under the law, and then she wasn't?

The woman represents mankind who is under the penalty of the law because of sin (her adultery of fornicating with Satan). After the woman (each person of mankind) receives both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, they will be covered by the blood of Christ and the law can no longer accuse her of sin because of Christ's sacrifice at the cross. The law is still intact but the woman is no longer guilty of violating the law - and after Christ matures her into a perfect man, full of age, she will be like Christ and will never sin again.

Joe

 

[Jack]

God "foresees" EVERYTHING!

Psalm 147:5
5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is infinite.

 

[Phoneman777]

Yes! Because God’s wisdom allows Him to see the end from the beginning (Isa. 46:10), God knew that he would disobey when presented with Satan’s lie and so the provision of Christ’s sacrifice for Adam was made even before the foundation of the world. “Knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, (19) but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. (20) For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” (1 Peter 1:28-20 NASB)

Apostle Paul confirms this in Eph. 1:3-6 (NASB): “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, (4) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love (5) He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, (6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” God chose the followers of Christ in him before the foundation of the world. This means the sacrifice of Jesus and hence, its need – Adam’s disobedience – was foreseen by God before the foundation of the world.

My dad's dog had puppies a few months ago, and whenever we visit, they can't contain their excitement.

As soon as they see us, their freewill choice to run up and jump and get underfoot with tails happily wagging uncontrollably is what makes their affection invaluable - and preprogrammed robotic affection worthless.

There's only one explanation for why those who are satisfied with nothing less than the former insist God is satisfied only with the latter: 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV.

 

[FaithWillDo]

My dad's dog had puppies a few months ago, and whenever we visit, they can't contain their excitement.

As soon as they see us, their freewill choice to run up and jump and get underfoot with tails happily wagging uncontrollably is what makes their affection invaluable - and preprogrammed robotic affection worthless.

There's only one explanation for why those who are satisfied with nothing less than the former insist God is satisfied only with the latter: 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV.

Dear Phoneman777,
If you want to find the truth of God, you should look for it in scripture and not in your dad's puppies.

Your belief in free will is contradicted by these numerous scriptures:

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Joe

 

[Gottservant]

In response to the OP, I would go further. I would say that God suffered Adam's disobedience with Adam - because up to that point Adam walked with God. It's not like God disowned Adam. The curse that was inflicted on Adam was punishment enough. God still remembers suffering with Adam, while his sons are still under the curse.

 

[Phoneman777]

Can anyone explain to me how it is that the one who holds the ultimate PhD in "Pipe-Hittin' Depravity" has shown himself (however reluctantly) well able to submit to God's authority...but somehow a humanity which can barely pass the entrance exams to Sin-dergarten is incapable of choosing to do the same?

 

[Berean]

My dad's dog had puppies a few months ago, and whenever we visit, they can't contain their excitement.

As soon as they see us, their freewill choice to run up and jump and get underfoot with tails happily wagging uncontrollably is what makes their affection invaluable - and preprogrammed robotic affection worthless.

There's only one explanation for why those who are satisfied with nothing less than the former insist God is satisfied only with the latter: 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV.

Well, if you wish to compare yourself to a dog, that's your choice. But Jesus didn't die for puppy dogs

 

[FaithWillDo]

Can anyone explain to me how it is that the one who holds the ultimate PhD in "Pipe-Hittin' Depravity" has shown himself (however reluctantly) well able to submit to God's authority...but somehow a humanity which can barely pass the entrance exams to Sin-dergarten is incapable of choosing to do the same?

Dear Phoneman777,

The only way any person can submit to God's authority is the way Paul did on the Damascus Road and that is by Christ giving them the Holy Spirit:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly, there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

When Christ is ready to change a person's heart and mind, He will come to them without their permission and without their asking and freely give them the Spirit. Without the Spirit, no person can submit to Christ and call Him Lord. Mankind does not have a free will ability to make the choices that they make.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

The answers are in scripture if you look but it does take faith in Christ to believe His answers. When Christ ready, He will give a person their faith, too.

Joe

 

[Phoneman777]

Dear Phoneman777,
If you want to find the truth of God, you should look for it in scripture and not in your dad's puppies.

"A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast".

Relationships help us understand the character of God - whether between humans or beasts. How sad that Calvinists look to satan's "Religion of Exclusivity" to do the same.

Your belief in free will is contradicted by these numerous scriptures:

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Not sure what you're point is, but we can safely dismiss it as unable to discount a choice to not live by it.

Strike one.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

He makes a "vessel unto honor" when He leads one to repentance...and they repent.

Conversely, a "vessel unto dishonor" remains when repentance is refused.

Strike two.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

The Sun melts butter but hardens clay - it's not the fault of the Sun, but the material upon which it acts.

Likewise, when truth is unwelcome, it causes those to whom it is unwelcome to be blind to it - just as Calvinists choose to be blind to their hypocrisy for dissatisfaction for robotic affection while demanding God be satisfied with the same.

Strike three.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

See, I keep reading that verse but I can't find the word "only" between "chosen" and "you".

Strike four.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Which means if the entire "many" would only heed the call, the entire "many" would be chosen...right?

Strike five.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

I tried to give a man a Bible tract, but he wouldn't open his hand to take it...same as the impenitent Jews.

Strike six.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

And that disproves freewill choice how?

Strike ... I lost count.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Again, can't find "only" between the words "being" and "predestined". God predestined all of us to inherit the kingdom - most would rather go to hell.

Another strike.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Doesn't discount free will choice.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Joe

Joe, what parent disregards the danger that ever surrounds his child and allows him to do as he pleases? Likewise, God also sets boundaries to preserve our lives as He works out His plans to lead us to repentance, hoping we choose Him over sin.