Apostle Paul's Change To The Spirit Body

[Verily]

I just submitted what I said in post #16 to Chatgpt and asked it to summarize it for me. At least it had no problem following me, lol. Here is how it summarized my post.
-------------------

This poster is engaging with the interpretation of Revelation 20 and making a distinction between the fate of Satan and the fate of the people who are judged in the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Here's a breakdown of the key points being made:

1. **The Fate of Satan vs. The Beast and False Prophet (FP):**
- Revelation 20:10 mentions Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet being cast into the "lake of fire" (LOF), where they are "tormented day and night forever and ever."
- However, the poster argues that Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 20:11-15 are not talking about the same event or fate. Revelation 20:11-15 describes the judgment of the dead, who are resurrected, judged, and sentenced to the LOF, but Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet are already in the LOF before this judgment happens.

2. **The Second Death:**
- The poster points out that Satan has never died, so he cannot experience a "second death." For humans, the second death follows the pattern of physical death (first death), resurrection, judgment, and then being cast into the LOF (second death).
- Because Satan is considered "immortal" and has never gone through physical death, the second death does not apply to him, which is why it is not mentioned in verse 10 regarding Satan's fate.

3. **Revelation 14:10 and 14:11:**
- Revelation 14:10-11 talks about people who worship the Beast being tormented "day and night forever and ever." The poster suggests that this passage is not referring to those judged in Revelation 20:11-15, but rather to those who worshiped the Beast during the tribulation period (before the final judgment).
- The key distinction is that in Revelation 14:11, it says they "have no rest day or night" for *worshiping* the Beast, indicating a continuous state, whereas in Revelation 20:11-15, the focus is on the judgment and the final sentencing to the LOF.

4. **Contradiction in Applying the Torment to Revelation 20:11-15:**
- The poster argues that if Revelation 20:11-15 was meant to describe the same fate as in Revelation 14:10-11 (eternal torment), it would have used similar language. It points out that Revelation 20:11-15 does not mention tormenting "day and night forever and ever" for those being judged, nor does it mention the second death in relation to Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet in the same way.

5. **Overall Interpretation:**
- The poster’s overall interpretation is that Revelation 20:10 is describing the eternal fate of Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet, which is different from the final judgment of the dead in Revelation 20:11-15. The judgment in Revelation 20:11-15 applies to those who have been resurrected for judgment, not to Satan or the Beast, who are already in the LOF and not subject to the same process.

In essence, the poster is arguing for a nuanced reading of these passages, where different groups (Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet vs. the resurrected dead) experience different outcomes and timelines, even though they share the ultimate fate of being in the lake of fire.

Well thanks for adding your insight as well Davidpt I will keep these things in mind also.

 

[ScottA]

Do you understand the coming type body of the world to come when Lord Jesus returns?

Do you understand that you will no longer have a flesh type body in that world to come? It will be a body type like the angels in heaven, just as Jesus said in Matthew 22:30.

It will be a body type like Lord Jesus' body once His raised body was 'quickened by The Spirit' (1 Peter 3:18-19; 1 Corinthians 15:44-45; 1 John 3:2).


Listen to Apostle Paul:

1 Cor 15:48-54
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

We will bear that "image of the heavenly"? Does that mean what Lord Jesus said in Matthew 22:30, that those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven" is meant literally? Yes, it does mean exactly what He said there. It's because the body type for the world to come is that "image of the heavenly", or "spiritual body" type which Paul taught in 1 Cor.15.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

What does Paul mean by that above? Just what he said, that flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God, because a body of corruption (flesh) cannot dwell in the dimension of Spirit; only a spirit type body can.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

All still alive on earth at Christ's future coming, including all the wicked, will be changed to Paul's "spiritual body" type. That also is the body type of the resurrection of the dead according to Paul. It means everyone... whether one has died or is still alive, on the day of Christ's coming, will be given a body of incorruption.

The "spiritual body" is not... a body only for the Just. It is for the unjust also.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Those words in red above are 4 different words in the Greek with 4 different meanings. The body of "corruption" is our flesh body. The body of "incorruption" is Paul's "spiritual body". That "this mortal" reference to about our soul; it is a spiritually dead soul without Faith on Christ Jesus. And that "immortality" is only... for those in Christ, the "first resurrection" and gathered saints on the day of Jesus' future coming.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
KJV

Have you ever looked back at Isaiah 25 where Paul quoted that, "Death is swallowed up in victory"? In Isaiah it is revealing the above 'change' at the twinkling of an eye will happen to all still alive on earth when Jesus returns, for all nations and peoples it shows the veil of this present world being removed. That... is how Death is swallowed up in victory when Jesus returns! But for the unsaved at Christ's future return, they will still be subject to the "second death" during His 1,000 years reign with His elect, per Rev.20.

I'm not going to do your Bible study homework for you on that Isaiah 25 chapter about death swallowed up in victory being for all nations and peoples. Do your own homework on this, or stay willingly ignorant of it. Your choice.

Good work! There is still the issue of Time only being perceived as such--but apply "time no longer", and you've got it!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What is so difficult about following that? You seem to be following @Spiritual Israelite ok but have no idea how to make sense of anything I said? Kind of hurts my feelings and makes me feel like I must be coming off as retarded or something, that it is impossible to follow what I'm meaning. I'm not saying anyone is obligated to agree with me, yet I shouldn't be that hard to follow per that post.

Good grief, David. Have you not acknowledged multiple times in the past that you are not as good at communicating clearly in a setting like this as you are talking to someone in person? Why do you have to be so offended when someone tells you that you're not being clear? I could not follow what you were saying in that post, either. Are you too prideful to admit that you might not be clear in what you're saying sometimes? You have admitted as such in the past, but I guess you have changed your mind and now think that you are always clear in everything you say?

How about trying to explain why Satan (and presumably his angels) would experience eternal torment in the lake of fire, but those whose names are not written in the book of life would not. So far, I haven't seen anything from you to explain why that would be the case.

 

[Davidpt]

Good grief, David. Have you not acknowledged multiple times in the past that you are not as good at communicating clearly in a setting like this as you are talking to someone in person? Why do you have to be so offended when someone tells you that you're not being clear? I could not follow what you were saying in that post, either. Are you too prideful to admit that you might not be clear in what you're saying sometimes? You have admitted as such in the past, but I guess you have changed your mind and now think that you are always clear in everything you say?

How about trying to explain why Satan (and presumably his angels) would experience eternal torment in the lake of fire, but those whose names are not written in the book of life would not. So far, I haven't seen anything from you to explain why that would be the case.

Apparently, you must not have been able to follow my post either since I clearly explained why. Yet you act as if I didn't. It's one thing to not agree with what I concluded, it's another thing to act as if I never provided any reasons why, period. The latter is being deceitful about what I posted.

That poster gave the impression post #16 was pure gibberish, impossible to follow. Yet, I submitted what I posted to Chatgpt and in a mere second it quickly summarized what I was getting at. So it's not like I'm impossible to follow, like some of you have led me to believe where I then admitted it must be true then, that I'm hard to follow at times.

 

[Davy]

Well thanks for adding your insight as well Davy, are you two on the same page together? You and Spiritual Israelite that is?

In short, if I am understanding you correctly, you believe when the beast and false prophet get cast alive into the lake of fire in Rev19:20 you are saying that these two are "cast in" are the devil's "acting roles" both of which get cast alive into it. And when the devil himself is finally gets cast into the lake of fire in Rev 20:10 the devil is just joining his alive action rolers (who are all really just him) or something along those lines. Never heard it quite put that way, interesting.

Characters in a stage play, that's what the "false prophet" and "beast" are, just roles that the "dragon" himself will play for the coming "great tribulation".

This is the reason those two roles are destroyed on the day of Jesus' coming without affecting what God's Word shows for when the "second death" actually is, i.e., after Christ's future "thousand years" reign at God's Great White Throne Judgment.

I don't know if spiritual Israelite agrees with this, and am not concerned. Best to stay in God's Word as written.

I do know that one of men's false doctrines that clouds the understanding of what I explained is this: one of the false doctrines of men is with thinking the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah must... be a flesh-born man, because... of thinking that anyone which appears in our earthly dimension with the 'image' of man has to be in a flesh body. That is not so per what God's Word shows about angels (Hebrews 13:2; and Isaiah 14 where God pointed to Lucifer with the image of 'man'.)

It is this matter, and many other Bible Scriptures that confirms for me, that the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah will be the "dragon" (Satan himself) in the 7th beast king role of this present world (Rev.17:10-14). And the 8th beast king role will again be the "dragon" (Satan himself) which will be for after... Christ's future "thousand years" reign, when Satan is loosed one final time to go tempt the unsaved nations. The reason I believe this again, is because of what God's Word reveals about the "dragon" that I mentioned earlier, including the following...

In Rev.12:3-4, it describes a time of a "red dragon" that drew one third of the stars (put for angels) to earth with him, pointing to Lucifer's original rebellion against God. Along with that is mentioned a beast kingdom system of old, one with seven heads, ten horns, but only "seven crowns". I missed that link to Lucifer's original rebellion for a long time, not seeing that "seven crowns" difference, because the beast kingdom system of Rev.13:1, which is for the end of this present world, is to have "ten crowns".

Christ revealed the "lake of fire" has been prepared specifically for the devil and his angels. They know they are going into it. But for all others, like those born in the flesh, they are not judged to perdition until after the future "thousand years" by Christ Jesus and His elect. Thus Rev.19:20 is not... the "second death", for that would conflict with what the Rev.20 chapter defines for when the "second death" is, and what it is.

The following verse is specifically about the devil himself:

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
KJV

Those 3 phrases are identifiers about the devil's history, from the old world as Lucifer when he first rebelled against God in coveting His Throne, and then with God ending that 'old world' when Lucifer first rebellion, with God bringing this 2nd world earth age of now. And then that "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition" is about his near-future coming to earth, in OUR earthly dimension with the image of man, playing the final Antichrist/false-Messiah at the end of this world. He is coming to re-establish a beast kingdom like the one he originally rebelled with that had only "seven crowns". That ascending out of the bottomless pit and going into perdition (into the future "lake of fire" at the "second death"), is a special marker directly about Satan.

The war in heaven of Rev.12:7 forward reveals that when that happens, there will be no more place found in heaven for Satan and his angels. That is a very, very, strong revealing by Lord Jesus in His Book of Revelation, simply because it means Satan and his angels at that point as a result of that war in heaven, will no longer be allowed in... that heavenly dimension.

That is why it is also revealed there in Rev.12:10 that the accuser (Satan) is cast down (out of the heavenly) who accused the brethren day and night (before God's throne, like in the Book of Job). What many fail to understand in God's Word, are the two separate dimensions of existence. There's only two written of, this earthly one, and the heavenly one. Thus one is in either one or the other. Satan and his angel's place has been in the heavenly one, even to this present day. But when Rev.12:7-8 happens and they are cast out of heaven, it means they are coming HERE, in OUR earthly dimension. The majority of the world, including many brethren in Christ, are not being prepared for that which will happen in our near future.

And this warning must go out which Lord Jesus Christ revealed in His Revelation, regardless that many think it just too fantastic, when in reality they do not understand the actual spiritual war that began for this present 2nd world earth age.

 

[Verily]

Characters in a stage play, that's what the "false prophet" and "beast" are, just roles that the "dragon" himself will play for the coming "great tribulation".

This is the reason those two roles are destroyed on the day of Jesus' coming without affecting what God's Word shows for when the "second death" actually is, i.e., after Christ's future "thousand years" reign at God's Great White Throne Judgment.

I don't know if spiritual Israelite agrees with this, and am not concerned. Best to stay in God's Word as written.

I do know that one of men's false doctrines that clouds the understanding of what I explained is this: one of the false doctrines of men is with thinking the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah must... be a flesh-born man, because... of thinking that anyone which appears in our earthly dimension with the 'image' of man has to be in a flesh body. That is not so per what God's Word shows about angels (Hebrews 13:2; and Isaiah 14 where God pointed to Lucifer with the image of 'man'.)

It is this matter, and many other Bible Scriptures that confirms for me, that the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah will be the "dragon" (Satan himself) in the 7th beast king role of this present world (Rev.17:10-14). And the 8th beast king role will again be the "dragon" (Satan himself) which will be for after... Christ's future "thousand years" reign, when Satan is loosed one final time to go tempt the unsaved nations. The reason I believe this again, is because of what God's Word reveals about the "dragon" that I mentioned earlier, including the following...

In Rev.12:3-4, it describes a time of a "red dragon" that drew one third of the stars (put for angels) to earth with him, pointing to Lucifer's original rebellion against God. Along with that is mentioned a beast kingdom system of old, one with seven heads, ten horns, but only "seven crowns". I missed that link to Lucifer's original rebellion for a long time, not seeing that "seven crowns" difference, because the beast kingdom system of Rev.13:1, which is for the end of this present world, is to have "ten crowns".

Christ revealed the "lake of fire" has been prepared specifically for the devil and his angels. They know they are going into it. But for all others, like those born in the flesh, they are not judged to perdition until after the future "thousand years" by Christ Jesus and His elect. Thus Rev.19:20 is not... the "second death", for that would conflict with what the Rev.20 chapter defines for when the "second death" is, and what it is.

The following verse is specifically about the devil himself:

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
KJV

Those 3 phrases are identifiers about the devil's history, from the old world as Lucifer when he first rebelled against God in coveting His Throne, and then with God ending that 'old world' when Lucifer first rebellion, with God bringing this 2nd world earth age of now. And then that "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition" is about his near-future coming to earth, in OUR earthly dimension with the image of man, playing the final Antichrist/false-Messiah at the end of this world. He is coming to re-establish a beast kingdom like the one he originally rebelled with that had only "seven crowns". That ascending out of the bottomless pit and going into perdition (into the future "lake of fire" at the "second death"), is a special marker directly about Satan.

The war in heaven of Rev.12:7 forward reveals that when that happens, there will be no more place found in heaven for Satan and his angels. That is a very, very, strong revealing by Lord Jesus in His Book of Revelation, simply because it means Satan and his angels at that point as a result of that war in heaven, will no longer be allowed in... that heavenly dimension.

That is why it is also revealed there in Rev.12:10 that the accuser (Satan) is cast down (out of the heavenly) who accused the brethren day and night (before God's throne, like in the Book of Job). What many fail to understand in God's Word, are the two separate dimensions of existence. There's only two written of, this earthly one, and the heavenly one. Thus one is in either one or the other. Satan and his angel's place has been in the heavenly one, even to this present day. But when Rev.12:7-8 happens and they are cast out of heaven, it means they are coming HERE, in OUR earthly dimension. The majority of the world, including many brethren in Christ, are not being prepared for that which will happen in our near future.

And this warning must go out which Lord Jesus Christ revealed in His Revelation, regardless that many think it just too fantastic, when in reality they do not understand the actual spiritual war that began for this present 2nd world earth age.

Thanks for sharing your insights too.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Apparently, you must not have been able to follow my post either since I clearly explained why. Yet you act as if I didn't.

What is clear to you isn't necessarily going to be clear to someone else. You should know that and I shouldn't have to explain that concept to you. You are being very prideful here in thinking that you are so clear that everyone should be able to understand what you're saying. Humble yourself. Have some patience and take a little more time to try to clarify what you're saying instead of being offended that someone didn't understand you.

It's one thing to not agree with what I concluded, it's another thing to act as if I never provided any reasons why, period.

No one is acting like that. You're being a bit paranoid here. To say that I don't understand what you said doesn't mean I'm saying you didn't provide any reasons for what you said. I just didn't understand what you were saying or the reasons why. So what? Either get over it and move on or take a little more time and try to clarify what you were saying.

The latter is being deceitful about what I posted.

I agree if anyone was actually doing that. But, no one acted as if you never provided any reasons for why you said what you did. If someone still doesn't understand even after you try to explain why you said what you did, so be it. It doesn't mean someone is saying you didn't even try to explain it.

That poster gave the impression post #16 was pure gibberish, impossible to follow.

Maybe for him it was. So what? It doesn't mean he's saying that is your fault. It might just be he is just not able to understand what you were saying in that post even if others can understand it. Why do you have to be offended just because one person couldn't follow what you were saying?

Yet, I submitted what I posted to Chatgpt and in a mere second it quickly summarized what I was getting at. So it's not like I'm impossible to follow, like some of you have led me to believe where I then admitted it must be true then, that I'm hard to follow at times.

You are way too overly sensitive. You can't be like that on a forum like this where debate, disagreements and misunderstandings are to be expected at times. No one is saying that what you said is impossible for anyone to follow. Maybe, for whatever reason, it's not possible for him to follow just because he thinks very differently than you do or becaus he hasn't thought as much about these things as people like us have or whatever the case might be. It's not something to be so offended about.

 

[Verily]

What is clear to you isn't necessarily going to be clear to someone else. You should know that and I shouldn't have to explain that concept to you. You are being very prideful here in thinking that you are so clear that everyone should be able to understand what you're saying. Humble yourself. Have some patience and take a little more time to try to clarify what you're saying instead of being offended that someone didn't understand you.


No one is acting like that. You're being a bit paranoid here. To say that I don't understand what you said doesn't mean I'm saying you didn't provide any reasons for what you said. I just didn't understand what you were saying or the reasons why. So what? Either get over it and move on or take a little more time and try to clarify what you were saying.


I agree if anyone was actually doing that. But, no one acted as if you never provided any reasons for why you said what you did. If someone still doesn't understand even after you try to explain why you said what you did, so be it. It doesn't mean someone is saying you didn't even try to explain it.


Maybe for him it was. So what? It doesn't mean he's saying that is your fault. It might just be he is just not able to understand what you were saying in that post even if others can understand it. Why do you have to be offended just because one person couldn't follow what you were saying?

You are way too overly sensitive. You can't be like that on a forum like this where debate, disagreements and misunderstandings are to be expected at times. No one is saying that what you said is impossible for anyone to follow. Maybe, for whatever reason, it's not possible for him to follow just because he thinks very differently than you do or becaus he hasn't thought as much about these things as people like us have or whatever the case might be. It's not something to be so offended about.

That was well put Spiritual Israelite, and I did ask you specifically because I find you a littler easier to understand on somethings (not to mention a little more aproachable) and I thought if anyone could make the angle of Amil more clear I chose you to do it. I do not even know if I agree with you or not or if I even know the right questions to ask, because I do not know what either Amil or Premil is, I have never studied these, but I have not studied calvinism or any other branches of christianity (by whatever name they might fall under). I do know it has something to do with the thousand years (where these fall) but I find it difficult to read just anyone on all the back and forths, I might gravitate more to those I find easier to read (but I never ask many questions). I should have said I wanted to understand how Spiritual Israelite explains a thing so that it would be a little more clearer about what I was aiming at. I just wanted to put my thumb down on a couple of things that I felt were important for me grasping what is being said. But I did not want to sift through (at this point) a pile on of information I can't follow yet.

And I am "a her" by the way. Someone had informed me that I did not have that in my profile but I dont know how to get it on there (I'm missing this somehow). I say that too because I think I also referred to you as him/her because I was not sure myself. But I am a woman (just so you know).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That was well put Spiritual Israelite, and I did ask you specifically because I find you a littler easier to understand on somethings (not to mention a little more aproachable) and I thought if anyone could make the angle of Amil more clear I chose you to do it. I do not even know if I agree with you or not or if I even know the right questions to ask, because I do not know what either Amil or Premil is, I have never studied these,

Well, I would encourage you to do so. There's a lot of info you can find about each view by just doing a search online. But, just know that not all Amils believe everything the same and not all Premils believe everything the same. But, all Amils would agree that the thousand years is figurative and not literal and does not occur after Christ returns. All Premils would agree that the thousand years takes place after Christ returns.

but I have not studied calvinism or any other branches of christianity (by whatever name they might fall under). I do know it has something to do with the thousand years (where these fall) but I find it difficult to read just anyone on all the back and forths, I might gravitate more to those I find easier to read (but I never ask many questions). I should have said I wanted to understand how Spiritual Israelite explains a thing so that it would be a little more clearer about what I was aiming at. I just wanted to put my thumb down on a couple of things that I felt were important for me grasping what is being said. But I did not want to sift through (at this point) a pile on of information I can't follow yet.

Right. So, the reason you didn't understand what David was saying was not because he was just being unclear to the point that no one could understand what he was saying. You just didn't understand because you haven't studied these things before. So, he shouldn't be offended that you didn't understand. And I didn't even understand some of what he was saying, but he shouldn't be offended by that either. It doesn't mean necessarily that he wasn't being clear. Sometimes people just think very differently so it's hard to understand each other. I know his way of thinking is very different from mine at times, so there will be times when I don't understand what he's talking about because of that.

And I am "a her" by the way.

Oh. Well, sorry about that. You may have noticed that a vast majority here are male, so it's hard not to assume that anyone I don't know here is a male.

Someone had informed me that I did not have that in my profile but I dont know how to get it on there (I'm missing this somehow).

Offhand, I'm not sure how to do that, either.

Edit: If you click on your username in the upper right corner and then go to Account Details you'll see some info listed there like Username, Email and so on. If you scroll down a bit you can see that one of the fields says "About you:". You could edit that and mention that you are female there.

I say that too because I think I also referred to you as him/her because I was not sure myself. But I am a woman (just so you know).

Yeah, I realize that now and won't make that mistake again, but there wasn't really any way I could have known that before. Glad to know it now. We could use more female participation on here.

 

[Davidpt]

Good grief, David. Have you not acknowledged multiple times in the past that you are not as good at communicating clearly in a setting like this as you are talking to someone in person? Why do you have to be so offended when someone tells you that you're not being clear? I could not follow what you were saying in that post, either. Are you too prideful to admit that you might not be clear in what you're saying sometimes? You have admitted as such in the past, but I guess you have changed your mind and now think that you are always clear in everything you say?

How about trying to explain why Satan (and presumably his angels) would experience eternal torment in the lake of fire, but those whose names are not written in the book of life would not. So far, I haven't seen anything from you to explain why that would be the case.

Let's just say, maybe there are some posts I have made in the past that are hard to follow. Ok, fine. But even so, what I posted per post #16 couldn't possibly be a post that is hard to follow, though. I would think even a 5th grader could follow that quite easily. That's what kind of hurt my feelings since that was not the type of post that anyone should have a hard time following. I wasn't all over the place in that post and that I kept it focused on the 2nd death and explained why the 2nd death would only be relevant to humans not spirit beings such as satan.

And the reason why satan will be tormented forever and ever is because it will be impossible for him to die. There is no 2nd death for him. There is not even a first death for him. Then I explained that verse 10 and verses 11-15 are not the same judgment. And that verse 10 made no mention of the 2nd death, the reason being obvious, the 2nd death is not applicable to him.

Then I mentioned, nowhere in verses 11-15, which btw is an entirely new context, thus not the same context as verse 10, does John ever say any humans cast into the LOF shall be tormented for ever and ever. That's a major thing to omit if it is indeed true about humans cast into the LOF.

Just imagine being 16 years old, for example, then already being rebellious, already getting in trouble with the police, already drinking, already doing drugs, then getting into a car acccident and being killed. This person just barely began life and that they deserve what satan deserves?

What if that 16 year old was your son, for example? How could you live with yourself the rest of your life, or even be happy in eternity if you are convinced he too deserves the same fate as satan, thus being tormented for ever and ever?

 

[Verily]

Well, I would encourage you to do so. There's a lot of info you can find about each view by just doing a search online. But, just know that not all Amils believe everything the same and not all Premils believe everything the same. But, all Amils would agree that the thousand years is figurative and not literal and does not occur after Christ returns. All Premils would agree that the thousand years takes place after Christ returns.

Perfect, that distinct difference between them is good to know thank you!

Right. So, the reason you didn't understand what David was saying was not because he was just being unclear to the point that no one could understand what he was saying. You just didn't understand because you haven't studied these things before. So, he shouldn't be offended that you didn't understand. And I didn't even understand some of what he was saying, but he shouldn't be offended by that either. It doesn't mean necessarily that he wasn't being clear. Sometimes people just think very differently so it's hard to understand each other. I know his way of thinking is very different from mine at times, so there will be times when I don't understand what he's talking about because of that.

Exactly, thats in my post #15 (which was to you actually) where I stated I cannot follow ANYONE down in this section (and this was before Davidpt responded to me) where I again said so much to him. And then Davy replied to me after that and so I figure I should just say, "thanks for your insight" be gracious and short, because I am cetainly not going to argue with something that is still yet unclear to me. I might do that when I feel I am very clear on something, but in this case I am not.

Oh. Well, sorry about that.

And no need to be, how could you know? I just thought I would tell you so would know so we are not tossing "Hey dudes" to one another

I am going to assume you are a man and refer to Spiritual Israelite as a he (unless you correct me) since you did not say.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly, thats in my post #15 (which was to you actually) where I stated I cannot follow ANYONE down in this section (and this was before Davidpt responded to me) where I again said so much to him. And then Davy replied to me after that and so I figure I should just say, "thanks for your insight" be gracious and short, because I am cetainly not going to argue with something that is still yet unclear to me. I might do that when I feel I am very clear on something, but in this case I am not.

I wish everyone here would read what you said here because we have a lot of people here who act like they know everything about a certain topic even though they clearly do not. So, they should first study the topic more before arguing and making themselves look bad.

And no need to be, how could you know? I just thought I would tell you so would know so we are not tossing "Hey dudes" to one another

LOL. Yes, that would've been embarrassing if I said "Hey dude" or "Yeah, man" or "Right on, bro" to you, so I'm glad you made it clear that you're not a dude and are a dudette instead.

I am going to assume you are a man and refer to Spiritual Israelite as a he (unless you correct me) since you did not say.

Yes, you are assuming right. I'm a man. I thought I implied that with how I was talking, but I guess you're right that I didn't say that specifically.

 

[Verily]

I wish everyone here would read what you said here because we have a lot of people here who act like they know everything about a certain topic even though they clearly do not. So, they should first study the topic more before arguing and making themselves look bad.

Thanks for showcasing my ignorance and giving me this wonderful participation prize

LOL. Yes, that would've been embarrassing if I said "Hey dude" or "Yeah, man" or "Right on, bro" to you, so I'm glad you made it clear that you're not a dude and are a dudette instead.

Hey, been "there" before
"dudette" works for me (haha!)

Yes, you are assuming right. I'm a man. I thought I implied that with how I was talking, but I guess you're right that I didn't say that specifically.

Thank you dude!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's just say, maybe there are some posts I have made in the past that are hard to follow. Ok, fine.

It is fine. Who cares? No one is clear all the time. It's not a big deal.

But even so, what I posted per post #16 couldn't possibly be a post that is hard to follow, though.

I didn't go back and read that post, so I'll have to look at it again before I can comment on that. With that said, Verily is someone who hasn't studied these things before much, if at all. So, it is possible that she may not understand what you were talking about just because she's not familiar with these things that we've talked about for many years.

I would think even a 5th grader could follow that quite easily. That's what kind of hurt my feelings since that was not the type of post that anyone should have a hard time following.

Except for someone who is not familiar with these things we're talking about. But, so what if one or two people don't understand what you said. That means no one understands?

I wasn't all over the place in that post and that I kept it focused on the 2nd death and explained why the 2nd death would only be relevant to humans not spirit beings such as satan.

And the reason why satan will be tormented forever and ever is because it will be impossible for him to die. There is no 2nd death for him. There is not even a first death for him. Then I explained that verse 10 and verses 11-15 are not the same judgment. And that verse 10 made no mention of the 2nd death, the reason being obvious, the 2nd death is not applicable to him.

I tend to think the term "the second death" applies only to those who died a first death, so I'm in agreement with that. But, Revelation 20:14 can give the impression that it's saying that being cast into the lake of fire in and of itself is the second death which would then mean that even Satan will experience the second death. But, I don't understand it that way, either. I see it as the second death applies specifically to those whose names are not written in the book of life who all will have experienced a first death before experiencing the second death.

Then I mentioned, nowhere in verses 11-15, which btw is an entirely new context, thus not the same context as verse 10, does John ever say any humans cast into the LOF shall be tormented for ever and ever. That's a major thing to omit if it is indeed true about humans cast into the LOF.

But, I have pointed out how it does say that in Revelation 14:9-11 and you try to deny that. I quoted Revelation 14:10-11 together with Revelation 20:10 and the similarities are obvious. Why would humans being cast into the lake of fire have a completely different experience from Satan and his angels being cast into the lake of fire?

Just imagine being 16 years old, for example, then already being rebellious, already getting in trouble with the police, already drinking, already doing drugs, then getting into a car acccident and being killed. This person just barely began life and that they deserve what satan deserves?

This illustrates a major problem with how you think. Are you God? Is it up to you to decide what punishment people deserve or is it up to God? His ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). Can you accept that or do you think you, instead of God, are the one who should decide what everyone deserves?

What if that 16 year old was your son, for example? How could you live with yourself the rest of your life, or even be happy in eternity if you are convinced he too deserves the same fate as satan, thus being tormented for ever and ever?

I would be fine with whatever God decided because I know He is fair and always does what is best. It would be foolish for me to think I know better than God how He should judge anyone, including my son.

 

[Davy]

Well, FYI for those who care to know, I began this thread therefore I feel obligated to respond to posts in this thread.

This thread is about what Apostle Paul taught about the 'change' on the "last trump" to the "spiritual body" that he was covering in the 1 Corinthians 15 chapter.

And now a bunch of folks have come here to cloud the waters with pushing their false beliefs on man's false theory of Amillennialism that first began in the 2nd century Christian Church. All the early 1st century Church fathers, including Christ's Apostles, were all Premill.


What is man's theory of Amillennialism?

The answer is simple, and all serious Bible students should be familiar with at least its basics.

The following definition of Amillennialism is from Crosswalk.com.

"Amillennialism is the view or system of eschatology (doctrine of the last things) that holds that there is no literal earthly millennium (thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ on the earth). Amillennialists believe that the millennium is spiritual. While all versions of amillennialism unite around their belief in no earthly millennium, they sometimes differ as to the exact nature and time of the millennium. While all believe that the millennium is spiritual and thus not earthly, some believe that the spiritual kingdom is present during the current era of the church. Some amillennialists believe that the present spiritual reign of God’s kingdom consists of the influence that the church exerts through its many worldwide ministries.​

​

Another form teaches that the millennium is composed of the reign of all dead Christians in heaven. Yet another kind believes that the millennium is equal to the eternal state that will commence at the second coming of Jesus Christ to the earth (known also as the second advent). In this view, the new heavens and new earth equals the millennium."​

​

​

It's main argument, which does not... align with the actual Bible Scriptures, is that Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20 is meant 'spiritually' only, and is not about a 'literal' 1,000 years period. In other words, Amill wrongly believes that the mention of "thousand years" in Revelation 20 is an allegory, and not real.

What that kind of false theory does, is it allows... Amill believers to 'speculate' whatever ideas they want for that "thousand years" clause and events given in Revelation 20 to mean. The devil cannot design any better way than to distort God's Truth in His Word directly than with such an idea as Amillennialism, since it seeks to 'create' a false philosophy 'model' that can tread off in so many different directions as to make the actual Revelation 20 chapter as written completely unrecognizable. (Thus how many versions of Amill theory can you count in that above definition by Crosswalk.com?)

A major sign of those deceived by the false Amill doctrines are how they 'reject' any and all Bible Scripture that points to a 'literal' future "thousand years" reign by Lord Jesus Christ and His elect that starts at His future return.

 

[Davy]

Now FYI, what is the Premill theory, or Premillennialism?

Simple. READ what your Bible declares about Christ's future "thousand years" LITERAL reign with His elect, on earth, that begins on the day of His future return.

And there exists other Bible Scripture that points to that future "thousand years" reign by Christ Jesus without mentioning the ordinal number 1,000 (see Isaiah 24:21-23 about Satan's host of kings over his future beast kingdom are locked up in his pit prison, and shall be visited after many days. The "after many days" reference is to that "thousand years" period of Christ's reign written in Revelation 20.)


At Alexandria, Egypt in the era of the early Christian Church, there was a Christian school there. One of the problems it had to deal with in that area were all the pagan ideas believed and taught by the majority of the peoples around the school there. The Christian school at Alexandria thus became influenced by some of those pagan and thus Gnostic style doctrines.

Clement of Alexandria, and Origin, both were viewed with suspicion because of their trying to teach many 'literal' truths written in God's Word instead as allegories (i.e., as spiritual meaning, and not literal meaning). Origin was later excommunicated because of doing that to God's Word.

If you are a serious Bible student, and are aware of all the modernism and philosophical style of modern Bible translations, like after 1881that use the new Greek NT translation by Wescott & Hort, and using the Alexandrian NT type texts, then you should realize how modern corruptions have crept into newer Bible translations:

(for those interested, see the video Bridge To Babylon presented by some excellent Bible scholars) --

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, FYI for those who care to know, I began this thread therefore I feel obligated to respond to posts in this thread.

This thread is about what Apostle Paul taught about the 'change' on the "last trump" to the "spiritual body" that he was covering in the 1 Corinthians 15 chapter.

And now a bunch of folks have come here to cloud the waters with pushing their false beliefs on man's false theory of Amillennialism that first began in the 2nd century Christian Church. All the early 1st century Church fathers, including Christ's Apostles, were all Premill.


What is man's theory of Amillennialism?

The answer is simple, and all serious Bible students should be familiar with at least its basics.

The following definition of Amillennialism is from Crosswalk.com.

"Amillennialism is the view or system of eschatology (doctrine of the last things) that holds that there is no literal earthly millennium (thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ on the earth). Amillennialists believe that the millennium is spiritual. While all versions of amillennialism unite around their belief in no earthly millennium, they sometimes differ as to the exact nature and time of the millennium. While all believe that the millennium is spiritual and thus not earthly, some believe that the spiritual kingdom is present during the current era of the church. Some amillennialists believe that the present spiritual reign of God’s kingdom consists of the influence that the church exerts through its many worldwide ministries.​

​

Another form teaches that the millennium is composed of the reign of all dead Christians in heaven. Yet another kind believes that the millennium is equal to the eternal state that will commence at the second coming of Jesus Christ to the earth (known also as the second advent). In this view, the new heavens and new earth equals the millennium."​

​

​

It's main argument, which does not... align with the actual Bible Scriptures, is that Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20 is meant 'spiritually' only, and is not about a 'literal' 1,000 years period. In other words, Amill wrongly believes that the mention of "thousand years" in Revelation 20 is an allegory, and not real.

What that kind of false theory does, is it allows... Amill believers to 'speculate' whatever ideas they want for that "thousand years" clause and events given in Revelation 20 to mean. The devil cannot design any better way than to distort God's Truth in His Word directly than with such an idea as Amillennialism, since it seeks to 'create' a false philosophy 'model' that can tread off in so many different directions as to make the actual Revelation 20 chapter as written completely unrecognizable. (Thus how many versions of Amill theory can you count in that above definition by Crosswalk.com?)

A major sign of those deceived by the false Amill doctrines are how they 'reject' any and all Bible Scripture that points to a 'literal' future "thousand years" reign by Lord Jesus Christ and His elect that starts at His future return.

How can you be Premill when you correctly believe that all of the dead will be resurrected and judged or rewarded when Christ comes again with unbelievers being resurrected unto "damnation"? That happens after the thousand years according to Revelation 20:11-15. Surely, being resurrected unto damnation is a reference to being cast into the lake of fire. So, how do you reconcile your interpretation of John 5:28-29 with Revelation 20:11-15 occurring AFTER the thousand years? It makes no sense whatsoever to interpret John 5:28-29 the way you do, which is how Amils interpret it as well (and no other Premils besides you) and claim that Premill is true. YOu need to address this instead of spending all your time on this nonsense about Amill while you interpret passages like John 5:28-29 the way that Amills do and no other Premills do.

 

[Davy]

How can you be Premill when you correctly believe that all of the dead will be resurrected and judged or rewarded when Christ comes again with unbelievers being resurrected unto "damnation"? That happens after the thousand years according to Revelation 20:11-15.

You fail to properly read... what Lord Jesus said in that John 5:28-29 Scripture. He showed that BOTH resurrection types happen at the sound of His voice on that day of His coming, that ALL in the graves shall come forth. The English there is very simple, so WHY... are you denying what He said there??

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Doesn't it bother you any that others who see you just bypass what Lord Jesus actually said in the above Scripture shows you are following an agenda from men??

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You fail to properly read... what Lord Jesus said in that John 5:28-29 Scripture. He showed that BOTH resurrection types happen at the sound of His voice on that day of His coming, that ALL in the graves shall come forth. The English there is very simple, so WHY... are you denying what He said there??

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Doesn't it bother you any that others who see you just bypass what Lord Jesus actually said in the above Scripture shows you are following an agenda from men??

You are the one who fails to properly read. Do you somehow not know that I'm an amillennialist? I don't make it a secret. All amils believe that the resurrection of the saved and the unsaved will happen when Jesus comes, so why are you falsely saying that I claimed otherwise?

What Jesus made clear is that judgment immediately follows the resurrection of the dead, so why do you have the judgment occurring 1,000+ years after the resurrection of all the dead that will occur when Jesus returns? Address this instead of making false claims about me.

 

[Davy]

You are the one who fails to properly read. Do you somehow not know that I'm an amillennialist? I don't make it a secret. All amils believe that the resurrection of the saved and the unsaved will happen when Jesus comes, so why are you falsely saying that I claimed otherwise?

No, not ALL Amillennialists believe all the wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's future return.