So what does the divinity of Jesus really mean, anyway?

[Lambano]

Yes. That is what I believe. I also believe that Jesus is deity in the sense that he is representationally equal to God.

Could you explain what you mean by, "representationally equal to God", please?

 

[Ritajanice]

Short commentary.

During his time on earth, he was quite clear about this. “He who has seen me has seen the Father,” he said (John 14:9). “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). There were some in the early Church who interpreted verses like these to mean that Jesus was himself the Father, merely appearing on earth in disguise.

 

[Lambano]

7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

That verse explicitly makes a distinction between Jesus and the Father.

Though the term "God" typically refers to the Person of the Father, when discussing Trinity, the term "God" is not totally synonymous with the Father, but rather is term referring to a single Essence that includes Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This change in nomenclature tends to confuse the conversation, sometimes confused beyond all recognition (CBAR).

 

[Ritajanice]

Essence that includes Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

They are of the same essence?

Which means what to you?

 

[Lambano]

They are of the same essence?

Which means what to you?

Trouble is, I have no bloody idea what the "essence" of God is.

 

[Ritajanice]

Trouble is, I have no bloody idea what the "essence" of God is.

Guess what, neither do I!...LOL.


Just found this, what do you make of it?

Colossians 2:9 in Other Translations 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 9 Everything of God gets expressed in him, so you can see and hear him clearly. You don't need a telescope, a microscope, or a horoscope to realize the fullness of Christ, and the emptiness of the universe without him.

What do you think the fullness of God means?

 

[CadyandZoe]

C&Z, the serious issue though that arises with you saying Jesus as only representationally equal to God is that folks will automatically think and link you are saying he is God. I believe it sends the wrong message or a mixed signal you want to say. I do know what you mean as Jesus being the agent of God as even the prophets of old.

I agree with you that Jesus is the agent of God as even the prophets of Old. But I also believe that Jesus is God representationally.

Imagine I hold up a sheet of music and say, "I have Handel's 'Messiah' in my hand." Now, let's say you and I are listening to Handel's 'Messiah' being performed by our local choir. Which version is Handel's 'Messiah'? Both are valid representations. We might argue that the sound and performance of the music are the true essence of Handel's 'Messiah', but we can also say that the sheet music represents the same work just as authentically.

God is transcendent and above our reality. One can argue that God is the real God, but we can also say that Jesus Christ is God just as authentically because he is God translated into the medium of a human being.

By definition a deity is a god, immortal, or even godlike, or even dangerously meaning with godlike characteristics that is not a god. The only definition that most on this site will think of for deity is being God, period.

I agree with you and find that I struggle to express what I believe the Bible conveys. When I think of deity, I envision a being with specific attributes that set God apart from humans: truthfulness, holiness, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, eternality, uncreated existence, and self-sufficiency. For example, God tells Israel, "Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar..." Unlike humans, God never lies. He always speaks the truth, and He is always good and holy.

Was Jesus like that? In some ways, He was, and in other ways, He was not. Jesus never lies; He always speaks the truth and is consistently good and holy. Moreover, He always does the will of His Father, even to the point of death. However, Jesus does lack some attributes of God, such as omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, eternality, uncreated existence, and self-sufficiency.

Above all, Jesus is the one human being who uniquely and solely possesses representational equality with God. While it's just a humorous analogy to say that Jesus and the Father share the same social security number, the point remains significant. When Jesus tells Philip, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father," he is conveying more than just a shared set of qualities with the Father.

If we were to think of our reality as a story, then Jesus would be a character representing God, the author. When the character Philip sees the character Jesus, he is, in essence, seeing God, who has written Himself into the narrative.

I realize we are not a story, but I hope this analogy clarifies the relationship between Jesus and the Father.

This is one of the reasons I opened this thread on divinity for Christ. Folks seem to have a very difficult time in distinguishing divinity as of God, the Father and then having divine-like attributes or characteristics, that does not mean God or deity.

The subject can get muddled very quickly I afraid.

I agree. This is a hard subject to discuss, but I am glad that we have permission to sort this out. Thanks.

 

[Lambano]

9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.

That's a good start. What logical consequences follow?

 

[Ritajanice]

Above all, Jesus is the one human being

He was born a baby...I just can’t see Jesus being the same as us....what did he grow from in Mary’s womb, I believe he grew from God’s Living seed, His seed that impregnated Mary....the Holy Spirit must have impregnated her womb.or even her egg?..how else could Jesus have grown in her womb?

I guess it will always remain a mystery, how Jesus grew in Mary’s womb....

 

[Ritajanice]

That's a good start. What logical consequences follow?

I have no idea...I’m getting nothing at the moment.

 

[CadyandZoe]

They are of the same essence?

Which means what to you?

Christians were trying to understand the nature of God and Jesus during a time when humanity was grappling with the concept of existence itself. What is existence? What is the true definition of "being"? The Greek word for "being" is "ousia." At that time, many people viewed the material world as flawed, sinful, and even evil. Consequently, they believed that the nature (ousia) of this world is bad. Because of this perspective, they assumed that God and other eternal entities were good. Therefore, since Jesus is considered good, he must be divine; and prior to his coming down from heaven, he must share the same "ousia," essence, and nature as God.

In theological terms, "essence" means "what it is." Essence is a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is."

 

[CadyandZoe]

He was born a baby...I just can’t see Jesus being the same as us....what did he grow from in Mary’s womb, I believe he grew from God’s Living seed, His seed that impregnated Mary....the Holy Spirit must have impregnated her womb.or even her egg?..how else could Jesus have grown in her womb?

I guess it will always remain a mystery, how Jesus grew in Mary’s womb....

I agree it's a mystery.

 

[Ritajanice]

Christians were trying to understand the nature of God and Jesus during a time when humanity was grappling with the concept of existence itself. What is existence? What is the true definition of "being"? The Greek word for "being" is "ousia." At that time, many people viewed the material world as flawed, sinful, and even evil. Consequently, they believed that the nature (ousia) of this world is bad. Because of this perspective, they assumed that God and other eternal entities were good. Therefore, since Jesus is considered good, he must be divine; and prior to his coming down from heaven, he must share the same "ousia," essence, and nature as God.

In theological terms, "essence" means "what it is." Essence is a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is."

Do you know what, I just thank God that I’m Born Of The Spirit and have a simple faith....I don’t need to understand any of this complicated stuff....I’m as happy as Larry....being exactly where I’m meant to be in Christ, just growing and maturing in the Spirit, being conformed into Jesus image an Honour and Privilege...Praise God!.

 

[APAK]

I agree with you that Jesus is the agent of God as even the prophets of Old. But I also believe that Jesus is God representationally.

Imagine I hold up a sheet of music and say, "I have Handel's 'Messiah' in my hand." Now, let's say you and I are listening to Handel's 'Messiah' being performed by our local choir. Which version is Handel's 'Messiah'? Both are valid representations. We might argue that the sound and performance of the music are the true essence of Handel's 'Messiah', but we can also say that the sheet music represents the same work just as authentically.

God is transcendent and above our reality. One can argue that God is the real God, but we can also say that Jesus Christ is God just as authentically because he is God translated into the medium of a human being.


I agree with you and find that I struggle to express what I believe the Bible conveys. When I think of deity, I envision a being with specific attributes that set God apart from humans: truthfulness, holiness, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, eternality, uncreated existence, and self-sufficiency. For example, God tells Israel, "Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar..." Unlike humans, God never lies. He always speaks the truth, and He is always good and holy.

Was Jesus like that? In some ways, He was, and in other ways, He was not. Jesus never lies; He always speaks the truth and is consistently good and holy. Moreover, He always does the will of His Father, even to the point of death. However, Jesus does lack some attributes of God, such as omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, eternality, uncreated existence, and self-sufficiency.

Above all, Jesus is the one human being who uniquely and solely possesses representational equality with God. While it's just a humorous analogy to say that Jesus and the Father share the same social security number, the point remains significant. When Jesus tells Philip, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father," he is conveying more than just a shared set of qualities with the Father.

If we were to think of our reality as a story, then Jesus would be a character representing God, the author. When the character Philip sees the character Jesus, he is, in essence, seeing God, who has written Himself into the narrative.

I realize we are not a story, but I hope this analogy clarifies the relationship between Jesus and the Father.


I agree. This is a hard subject to discuss, but I am glad that we have permission to sort this out. Thanks.

Clearly understood...I was just showing my maybe extreme cautionary view that I have in these subjects, and I do not want to lead anyone astray...

 

[Jack]

Okay, if we stick with the Bible, and I agree, then we must abandon the doctrine of the Trinity. As I say, the Trinity Doctrine is Bible plus Philosophy.

The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible but the doctrine is absolutely in the Bible!

 

[Jack]

Yes. That is what I believe. I also believe that Jesus is deity in the sense that he is representationally equal to God.

ONLY God is equal to God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible but the doctrine is absolutely in the Bible!

While there are three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the Bible. The concept that the nature of God is a single essence comprised of three people is not in the Bible. That came from the Greek dichotomy and Plato.

 

[Jack]

While there are three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the Bible. The concept that the nature of God is a single essence comprised of three people is not in the Bible. That came from the Greek dichotomy and Plato.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit = God of the Bible!

 

[CadyandZoe]

ONLY God is equal to God.

We are trying to avoid a tautology, which isn't very helpful. In the fourth century, people asked the question, "What is sameness? What makes one thing the same as the other thing?" For instance, when a boy yells at his brother, "Hey, that's my cookie!" He can mean one of two things: 1) that cookie is the very same cookie that mom gave me, or 2) that cookie looks like the cookie mom gave me. So then, we have two ways to talk about sameness: numerical sameness and attributive sameness.

A. Numerical sameness: The very same. The one in question.
B. Attribute sameness: two things are identical in every detail.

Jesus is not numerically the same as God, and Jesus doesn't share all the attributes of God. So we need another category because God is a spirit being, while Jesus is a human being, but they are both God in some way. For this reason, the Bible adds a third category of sameness: representational sameness. Jesus images God, according to Paul. Jesus is the man who exegeses God, according to John.

Representational Sameness: one thing is the same as another if it can be identified as the thing itself.
If I and my child are looking in the mirror together and I ask, "Who is that?" The child will answer, "You, daddy." The image in the mirror represents me to such a degree that the child identifies it with me. That is ME in the mirror. If a composer develops a transcription of his music on paper, the sheet music shares representational identity with the composition.

Jesus is the translation of God into human form; he shares representational identity with God.

 

[Jack]

We are trying to avoid a tautology, which isn't very helpful. In the fourth century, people asked the question, "What is sameness? What makes one thing the same as the other thing?" For instance, when a boy yells at his brother, "Hey, that's my cookie!" He can mean one of two things: 1) that cookie is the very same cookie that mom gave me, or 2) that cookie looks like the cookie mom gave me. So then, we have two ways to talk about sameness: numerical sameness and attributive sameness.

A. Numerical sameness: The very same. The one in question.
B. Attribute sameness: two things are identical in every detail.

Jesus is not numerically the same as God, and Jesus doesn't share all the attributes of God. So we need another category because God is a spirit being, while Jesus is a human being, but they are both God in some way. For this reason, the Bible adds a third category of sameness: representational sameness. Jesus images God, according to Paul. Jesus is the man who exegeses God, according to John.

Representational Sameness: one thing is the same as another if it can be identified as the thing itself.
If I and my child are looking in the mirror together and I ask, "Who is that?" The child will answer, "You, daddy." The image in the mirror represents me to such a degree that the child identifies it with me. That is ME in the mirror. If a composer develops a transcription of his music on paper, the sheet music shares representational identity with the composition.

Jesus is the translation of God into human form; he shares representational identity with God.

Your unBiblical opinions do not overrule our Christian Bible.