When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?
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Once Christ died and rose, everything from that point on pertaining to a temple is meaning spiritual not literal. IMO, the reason why God didn't destroy the 2nd temple soon after Christ died and rose, but chose to wait 40 years, was in order to give them plenty of space to repent. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is obviously involving the final days of this age and is obviously involving a temple. But not a literal temple. It is this temple that Matthew 24:15-26 is involving. But I don't know if I would call this a repeating prophesy, whatever that's supposed to mean.
Yes, and He'll be coming again in the future to destroy Babylon.
Isaiah 13
1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Yes, and He'll be coming again in the future to destroy Idumea.
Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Yes, and He'll be coming again in the future to destroy Egypt.
Ezekiel 32
2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt...
7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.
That's four future second comings for you when you include Matthew.
All of the fun, folly, fallacy, and fantasy you can want in your future.
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Spiritual Israelite
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Yes, because you've told me 1,000 times. I guess you thought that wasn't enough.
No, I disagree with your opinions.
I have never said that He returned immediately after a 70 AD great tribulation, so you are lying about what I believe.
Why didn't you address my view of this when I explained it earlier? When do you think that Matthew 24:23-26 takes place? When do you think "the times of the Gentiles" take place?
The Olivet Discourse followed Jesus saying that the temple buildings would be destroyed. So, one of the questions He was asked was about that.
Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
So, the question is, where in the Olivet Discourse did Jesus answer that question? You quoted from Matthew 24:21 and then skipped to Matthew 24:29 and you assume that what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 24:21 is the same as what He was talking about in Matthew 24:29. But, you are missing that "the times of the Gentiles" occur after what is described in Matthew 24:15-21 up until what is described in Matthew 24:29-31.
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke 21:20-24 is parallel to Matthew 24:15-21. When the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem in 70 AD they proceeded to destroy it, including its temple buildings, just as Jesus said would happen. Many of them fell by the edge of the sword and many others were "led away captive into all nations". Believers, heeding Jesus's warning, fled to the mountains before all that happened. That is exactly what happened in 70 AD. And Jerusalem has been trampled upon by the Gentiles ever since during the times of the Gentiles. So, the tribulation of those days has to occur sometime during the times of the Gentiles, not during what is described in Matthew 24:15-21 (Mark 13:14-20, Luke 21:20-24).
And, what about this passage:
Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
This passage describes things that would occur some time AFTER what is described in Matthew 24:15-21. But, you have Jesus returning immediately after what is described in Matthew 24:15-21 instead, which doesn't allow for what is described in Matthew 24:23-26 to occur after that. How do you explain that? This passage matches up with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 which indicates that the type of tribulation that will occur right before Jesus returns is related to a high level of deception and wickedness, not to physical destruction.
Truth7t7
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David in NJ
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Truth7t7
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"Yes" you falsely claim the "Great Tribulation" seen in Mattew 24:21 took place in 70AD
Your claim is wrong, as Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21, the great tribulation seen and the second coming of Jesus immediately after this tribulation is bound together inseparable, and Matthew 24:21 wasn't fulfilled in 70AD, it's a future great tribulation and a future second coming immediately after this tribulation
Once Again you claim Matthew 24:21 the great tribulation was fulfilled in 70AD your claim is "False"
Matthew 24:21 & 29-30KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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Truth7t7
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Daniel's AOD, The Great Tribulation, and The Second Coming Are "Future" Events Unfulfilled
Truth7t7
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Once Again, Posted For The 50th+ Time In Eschatology
Yes the Jerusalem temple was destroyed in 70AD, however the Lord spoke of the temple of his body being destroyed, yes the temple to be destroyed was the Lord's Body, not a temple of stone that took 46 years to build in Jerusalem
John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Spiritual Israelite
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That is correct. But, when Jesus referred to "the holy place" in the Olivet Discourse, that was before His death so it was still valid to refer to the temple standing at that time as "the holy place" up until the veil of the temple was torn in two when Jesus was crucified. That did not mean it was still supposed to be considered "the holy place" when the abomination that causes desolation occurred.
In the time before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, Jewish Zealots desecrated the temple with sacrilegious behavior and by appointing a mock high priest and later they invited the Idumeans to Jerusalem and they killed many people there in the temple courts. Then the Roman army brought their own gods and idols into the temple while desecrating it. Though it had already been rendered spiritually desolate to the unbelieving Jews by Jesus before that (Matt 23:37), it was still an abomination for the Zealots, the Idumeans and the Roman armies to desecrate the temple. It was still an abomination for the Roman army to bring their own pagan symbols, false gods and idols into a place that was intended to be a place for God to meet with His people. They made a mockery of something that God had made holy and of a place where only the Jewish priests were supposed to go and where the high priest would go to meet with God.
Just because Jesus rendered the temple to be spiritually desolate to the unbelieving Jews does not mean God would be okay with people just doing whatever they wanted there while making a mockery of a place that God intended to be holy and where only His people could go. God intended for the temple to be destroyed as a punishment for the unbelieving Jews, but He would not find it acceptable for it to be desecrated and mocked by people naming a mock high priest, worshiping false gods and idols, committing murders and other abominable acts there.
I agree. That opinion is shared by many people.
Where, within Matthew 24:15-22 did Jesus give any indication that He was not speaking in a literal, physical sense? What about the verses just prior to that? Do you think any of Matthew 24:4-14 is not meant to be taken literally? If not, then why do you think He suddenly switched from speaking in a literal, physical sense up to verse 14 to speaking figuratively and spiritually in verse 15? How would the disciples He was talking to at the time have known that without Him giving any indication of that? And then He supposedly switched back to speaking literally again in verse 21? Why would He have done that?
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David in NJ
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Well i agree with most of what you have stated above.
Matt 24:15-26 = When do you believe this took place???
Spiritual Israelite
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I wasn't talking to you. I was addressing David in NJ's claim that the Matthew 24:15-21 passage in particular was a repeating prophecy in the sense that part of it was fulfilled in 70 AD and the rest in the future. I'm trying to find out what he meant by that exactly in terms of which part he thought was fulfilled in that passage in 70 AD and which part is fulfilled in the future. I don't think it makes sense to think that passage refers to both the past and the future, so I'm trying to figure out how he comes to that conclusion. Does he see two abominations of desolation there? Two times that people in Judea flee to the mountains? I don't know, so I'm trying to find out.
David in NJ
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Spiritual Israelite
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Wow. It's a miracle that you even acknowledge that. But, somehow that significant event is not prophesied in the Bible anywhere? That event was devastating to the Jews and was huge event in the history of the Jews, but there's nothing in the Bible about it?
Yes, He spoke of that, but not in the Olivet Discourse. That is a completely different context than the Olivet Discourse.
This is not part of the Olivet Discourse.
Truth7t7
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Luke 21:20 in Jerusalem being surrounded by armies is a future event unfulfilled, in the fulfilling of the gentiles Luke 21:24 also seen in Revelation 11:2 as the book of Revelation was written in 96AD when John was imprisoned by Emperor Domitian that reigned in 81-96AD years "After" Your 70AD claim
Luke 21:24KJV
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Spiritual Israelite
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Thank you. Now, I see that what you called repeating prophecy is what some others call dual fulfillment prophecy. I don't agree with that concept. If we start allowing for repeating or dual prophecies, where does it end? What if someone tries to claim that the prophecy about the Messiah being cut off was a dual prophecy? How can we ever know when a prophecy has been fulfilled if it's possible for a prophecy to be fulfilled more than once?
David in NJ
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It ends where it begins = "IAM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End"
You show them this = Hebrews 9:23-28
Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
We know by this: Matthew 4:4
But Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’
@Scott Downey - you still breathing???
Spiritual Israelite
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Some believe that Matthew 24:15-22 has a future fulfillment rather than being fulfilled in 70 AD because they deny that Luke 21:20-24 is a parallel passage. I have yet to see a convincing argument to explain how the following passages, which are both quoted as being part of the Olivet Discourse, could possibly not be parallel passages along with Mark 13:14-20. I won't bother quoting Mark 13:14-20 since it's very similar to Matthew 24:15-22 and was originally addressed to the same primary audience as Matthew's account was.
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
The similarities between the passages are obvious. There's no way that Jesus said what is quoted in Matthew 24:15-22 at one point in the Olivet Discourse and said what is quoted in Luke 21:20-24 either shortly before or after that. That makes no sense whatsoever. The reason that Luke's account is a bit different is simply because his audience was primarily Gentiles who would have no idea about any prophecy about the abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel, so he spelled it out for them instead.
For those that agree that Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24 are parallel passages, I don't know how they can deny that Luke 21:20-24 describes what occurred in 70 AD when the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem and then destroyed it and made it desolate. Christians in Judea fleed to the mountains when they saw the impending desolation of Jerusalem just as Jesus said they should do. If Luke 21:20-24, Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20 all describe the tribulation immediately after which Jesus comes, then how would that allow for Jews to be led away captive into all nations and how would it allow for "the times of the Gentiles" to occur afterwards?
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
The similarities between the passages are obvious. There's no way that Jesus said what is quoted in Matthew 24:15-22 at one point in the Olivet Discourse and said what is quoted in Luke 21:20-24 either shortly before or after that. That makes no sense whatsoever. The reason that Luke's account is a bit different is simply because his audience was primarily Gentiles who would have no idea about any prophecy about the abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel, so he spelled it out for them instead.
For those that agree that Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24 are parallel passages, I don't know how they can deny that Luke 21:20-24 describes what occurred in 70 AD when the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem and then destroyed it and made it desolate. Christians in Judea fleed to the mountains when they saw the impending desolation of Jerusalem just as Jesus said they should do. If Luke 21:20-24, Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20 all describe the tribulation immediately after which Jesus comes, then how would that allow for Jews to be led away captive into all nations and how would it allow for "the times of the Gentiles" to occur afterwards?
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Spiritual Israelite
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How does this answer the question? Does this mean you're saying that any prophecy that is never explicitly said to have been fulfilled once has a dual fulfillment or could have a dual fulfillment?
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