The unknown single most important thing to be sure to know if you meet a JW.

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PS95

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Not sure what you mean here, @TheHC. The death of an unbeliever is not paid for by their own death. There is no payment for the sin of an unbeliever unless that unbeliever becomes saved by believing and receiving Christ as the Lord and Savior. Then the blood of Jesus cleanses them from sin. Sin is only atoned for through Jesus' death and resurrection. No one is able to be cleansed from sin through Christ's blood without that person being saved by grace and also through faith.
What she is speaking about there, is those who never heard the JW "good news"-- who have died before hearing the JW and becoming a JW. (since our gospel ended in 1914 when Jesus returned invisibly and chose them as best church)

Aside from those people.. YES, JWs do teach that their deaths pays for their own sins. NOT Jesus' blood.*
And it does not matter what evil they've done here while alive since dying pays for their sins. They will get an auto-resurrection with no sins.
They do not read Romans 6. They just pluck 2 partial verses from the chapter where Paul is speaking about our new lives NOW in Christ. They say it is all about our physical deaths not dying with Christ.

I just wanted you to be clear, Angelina. I'm sure TheHC or Aunty Jane or Keiw or the other JWs will be happy to explain further.
 

Debp

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if you read Matthew 12:22-32 and see the context you should see that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when you attribute things to Satan that are done by the Holy Spirit instead such as when Jesus cast demons out of people. The Pharisees accused him of doing that by the power of Beelzebub, which is Satan and after that is when He talked about the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
The above is what I believe to be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
 

Debp

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I agree with you that this forum is awful. . Many who say they are Christian it seems they are not. There is a lot of venom in this place and should not be over non-salvational things. They are walking in the flesh. I never see this behavior among true believers in my personal experience. I'm planning on leaving here soon because of the way it is. I gave it 2 chances.
I agree this forum is wild. I go to another forum...if members don't agree with the statement of faith, they are put into a separate area so as not to mislead others.

I hope you won't leave but I can understand your feelings.
 
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PS95

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I agree this forum is wild. I go to another forum...if members don't agree with the statement of faith, they are put into a separate area so as not to mislead others.

I hope you won't leave but I can understand your feelings.
Thank you Debp
I appreciate that.
TheHC was going after a member there who had posted to me that he is having some questions about the fighting on these boards. Right on this very thread he said it. So they are reading it! But hiding from it.
JWs seek people out who they see as vulnerable. They even ambulance chase- and will just show up at a home where someone recently died by reading the OBITUARIES.
I am not going to stay much longer. It's too much being the only one who is looking out for their lies. They should not be allowed here. But they see it differently because they have no idea of the actual evil that is hidden in this religion. They only know what they've heard. They have never been up close like I have.
They are VERY secretive. JWs have a thing called, "theocratic warfare" and what that means is it is OK to LIE to protect their ORG. They abuse the story of Rahab for that one.
People are unaware of these things. "They act so nice"- they say. or they sure know the bible. HA! No they shred the bible. And they are only nice when you are looking. Nothing worse to live with than someone under the JW spell. They have to take classes once a week to learn how to act -and what to say- and how to say -it and how to bait you...and what to say if you say this or that. It is scripted. That's why they sound alike.
I'm sorry for this post. I have had it with them.
My parents died in that false religion. The rest of the family is under their spell. Its awful beyond all words. I am not responsible for who they hurt on here anymore. I have done my job. It's time for the moderators to decide what they want to do. Maybe I will catch you on the other site. Msg me with the name, ok?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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These people are truly twisted. I posted this thread initially because @Aunty Jane insisted that JWs DO teach that Jesus died to pay for our sins.
She lies constantly on here. So I told her I would start a thread so we can discuss it.
She called me a slanderer and said she would not come to THIS thread after I made it.
Now, here we have her sidekick JW, TheHC who just posted this (below) to a member here.

the audacity of these people--

It doesn't matter how evil you are in this life. You pay for your sins by dying... ????
Does that explain they are such nasty liars or what?!!!
See how they lift the 2 partial verses out of 23 in the chapter utterly destroying what it says? It's almost amusing if it wasn't so pathetic and evil.
Look how loving their fake angel Jesus is- go eat drink and be merry for tomorrow you shall die.
DECEIVERS.


@Triumph1300
@lforrest
@Angelina


Here is where @TheHC 's quote came from.
Yes, they blatantly lie because their beliefs are deceptive and part of deceiving is to hide what they actually believe while pretending as if their beliefs are Christian.
 
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PS95

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Yes, they blatantly lie because their beliefs are deceptive and part of deceiving is to hide what they actually believe while pretending as if their beliefs are Christian.
"But false prophets also appeared among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves." 2 Peter 2:1

Wow. to a tee
 

Dash RipRock

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I don't appreciate being falsely accused

They did this to Jesus and His Apostles, so count it all joy when they accuse you of wrong doing while telling them what the Lord says in His Word!

It means you are doing something right and you have stirred up the devils who are trying to get you to shut up and quit speaking truth

It's a good thing and nothing to be upset over.
 
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Debp

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Thank you Debp
I appreciate that.
TheHC was going after a member there who had posted to me that he is having some questions about the fighting on these boards. Right on this very thread he said it. So they are reading it! But hiding from it.
JWs seek people out who they see as vulnerable. They even ambulance chase- and will just show up at a home where someone recently died by reading the OBITUARIES.
I am not going to stay much longer. It's too much being the only one who is looking out for their lies. They should not be allowed here. But they see it differently because they have no idea of the actual evil that is hidden in this religion. They only know what they've heard. They have never been up close like I have.
They are VERY secretive. JWs have a thing called, "theocratic warfare" and what that means is it is OK to LIE to protect their ORG. They abuse the story of Rahab for that one.
People are unaware of these things. "They act so nice"- they say. or they sure know the bible. HA! No they shred the bible. And they are only nice when you are looking. Nothing worse to live with than someone under the JW spell. They have to take classes once a week to learn how to act -and what to say- and how to say -it and how to bait you...and what to say if you say this or that. It is scripted. That's why they sound alike.
I'm sorry for this post. I have had it with them.
My parents died in that false religion. The rest of the family is under their spell. Its awful beyond all words. I am not responsible for who they hurt on here anymore. I have done my job. It's time for the moderators to decide what they want to do. Maybe I will catch you on the other site. Msg me with the name, ok?
When I realized the JWs and some others were allowed total access to this site, I was shocked. I doubt that Christians would be allowed to post on JW forums.

Like you I hate to see them spreading false teachings here. There should at least be a separate forum for them so others are aware of them being in a cult.

@Angelina Please see PS95 's post above. Thanks.
 

PS95

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The above is what I believe to be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Yes, me too.
It's something that I grew up around... demons everywhere. They say Christians pray to demons. Demons answer our prayers. To them, we literally worship Satan. We are all antichrists. Anything miraculous is demonic to them.
Gifts of the spirit are demonic. .. it doesn't end.
Even wind chimes have demons! They aren't allowed to have them.
They have a lot of problems with demons and members.
Their history has ties to spiritism. Johannes Greber was a spiritist with his John 1:1 "a god" came from him. I've posted a thread on that here before. They were caught lying about that involvement which spanned over years.
Their founder Charles Taze Russell was involved with pyramidology. His false prophecy dates- he measured the great pyramid and deceitful biblical chronology where they changed history so it would add up.
I could go on, but it makes me sick. No sense in making you sick too.
 
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PS95

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When I realized the JWs and some others were allowed total access to this site, I was shocked. I doubt that Christians would be allowed to post on JW forums.

Like you I hate to see them spreading false teachings here. There should at least be a separate forum for them so others are aware of them being in a cult.

@Angelina Please see PS95 's post above. Thanks.
Thank Deb. I agree that they it would be for the good of all if Jws were restricted. It gives them more than enough places to wreak their havoc. I think it's 6 boards.? Matthias is that way, but that was because he was at least honest when he came here about his beliefs. Even he doesn't deny the atonement for our sins. Nor does he teach bad deeds don't count in this life when you die. I see his posts constantly.
Or what about JW as their tag- although that isn't really looked at often.
A separate JW board would be ideal but limited to there only.<- Best idea imo.
They deny the most basic Christian FACTS. I'm not even talking about the trinity.
They will agree Jesus is "divine"-that is because angels are divine. A deity- same.- satan is the god of this world. They have Jesus on the same level as satan- a god.
The SOF No. they are not in agreement with pretty much anything there. They would agree with #4.
#5 is iffy since only their interpretation is correct.
It's a pretty vague SOF compared to most, so you would think it would be no problem. And you are right- No one is allowed on JW forums except them and you can't even read it without being a member. Its a secret.
 
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Davy

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You can believe that if you want to. But it isn't true.
As I said, Matthias does not accept the trinity- heck he doesn't even agree that the WORD who became flesh = Jesus! insane, right? YET- he fully accepts Jesus' substitutionary death.
So my point is- it is possible to separate the two trinity/Jesus' death paid for our sins. Cult stuff can be hard to grasp.
I'm just trying to help you to see that this Lie of this thread does not always equate to the trinity.
You will not help a JW if you begin with arguing the trinity.
Do you think it's wise to take counsel about how to help a JW from someone who has had close involvement with them for many years and was almost baptized as one as well as X-JWS ---------OR someone who has no idea what it is like to be a JW?

I'm glad that YOU understand what YOU meant, but since you worded it in such a way that it would be misconstrued to a JW- you need to clarify when you word it that way. FOR their sakes. Because God does not ever DIE. yet that IS what a JW thinks you said.
See why you need to know how their brains are wired?

But you are... kind of talking in riddles about the idea of The Triune Godhead of Three Persons. God's Word does teach that, so it don't matter what men call it, or their claims that some religious organization created the idea, when it's been written in God's Word all the time. I definitely believe that The Godhead represents Three Persons like Scripture reveals. The Book of Hebrews should be a major lesson for anyone about that. Yet I find that Jewish Christians have a very difficult time in understanding it. And that's why I believe Charles Taz Russel likely came from a Jewish traditional upbringing, and had difficulty in grasping how Lord Jesus Christ can also be GOD.
 

TheHC

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Not sure what you mean here, @TheHC. The sin of an unbeliever is not paid for by their own death. There is no payment for the sin of an unbeliever unless that unbeliever becomes saved by believing and receiving Christ as their Lord and Savior. Then the blood of Jesus cleanses them from sin. Sin is only atoned for through Jesus' death and resurrection. No one is able to be cleansed from sin through Christ's blood without that person being saved by grace and also through faith.
What are the “wages of sin”? Torment or death? (Rom. 6:23)

And what is the “Resurrection of the unrighteous”, and what is their judgment? (Acts 24:15) If they are resurrected (which means “stand back to life”), only to be judged unworthy, then why bother bringing them back to life?

Does that make sense? Not to me!
 
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TheHC

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Even he [Matthias] doesn't deny the atonement for our sins.
Neither do we. I can’t help your misunderstanding, but that’s willful.

@Debp , don’t believe this person.
It’s like asking Judas about Jesus Christ!

Further, we have no ‘secret forums’, I’d be on them if we did.

No wonder @Aunty Jane has you on ignore! You try to use that to your advantage, but I’m here, reading your vehemence-filled posts. And Jehovah & Jesus see it, too; that’s the great thing.

One more thing…. Not everyone will be resurrected. That’s God’s & Jesus’ choice.
 
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PS95

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We don’t have any forums! You know that!
Please don't tell me what I know. There certainly are JW only forums. Here's one. No one can join but a JW after being asked questions that ONLY JWS know the answer to. And after you give them your name, address, email, location of congregation etc. And no one else can even read the boards. You must be a member. I would call that "secretive" YES. Why don't you and Aunty J and take your others and go there? Why here? Counting your time here. That's why. No converts are here for you. You are deceivers. Go to be with your own.

 
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PS95

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Neither do we. I can’t help your misunderstanding, but that’s willful.

@Debp , don’t believe this person.
It’s like asking Judas about Jesus Christ!

Further, we have no ‘secret forums’, Id be on them if we did.
I see. One Q for you. When my JW dad died- did his death pay for His sins?
 

TheHC

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What do Scriptures say about the soul? Does it die? Yes…

All of the following Scriptures in the Hebrew text use the phrase “dead soul” (or dead souls):



Leviticus 19:28; Leviticus 20:6; Leviticus 21:1; Leviticus 21:11; Leviticus 22:4; Numbers 5:2; Numbers 6:6; Numbers 6:11; Numbers 19:11; Numbers 19:13; Genesis 17:14; Exodus 12:15; Exodus 12:19…..
Et.al.

(Look it up. Use a Hebrew Lexicon for these passages…. You’ll see where it says “body”, or “man”, or corpse”, however the version you use translates it, the Hebrew word is “nepes” or “nephesh”, which means “soul”.)

Why do most translators render the Hebrew word “soul” in those verses as something different?

Because they have preconceptions as to what happens at death….

What does happen? Exactly what God told Adam at Genesis 3:19….

YOU will return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are, and to dust you will return.”

Was Jehovah God talking to Adam’s body? No! God was talking to Adam, the person!

And at Genesis 2:7 God’s Word says that “Adam became a living soul.”

Adam was not ‘given’ a soul; Adam was a soul. He “became” one, when he was given life.

To further cement this concept that the person dies, look at Ecclesiastes 9:5…

Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, ”For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing at all.”

Some like to say that “this means dead bodies.”

But who ‘knows’ things? A body, or a person? A PERSON! People know things, not their bodies!

So what this passage is saying, is:“For the living *[people]* know that they will die; but the dead
*[people]* know nothing at all”!!

So, the soul, the person, dies. -Ezekiel 18:4).

Since the Bible doesn’t contradict itself, how can we understand Jesus’ statement at Matthew 10:28?

Notice there are a couple definitions for soul (“nephesh” / “nepes” in Hebrew, “psychē” in Greek).
It can also stand for our life.

Chances for our life / our person in the future, are always in God’s hands. That’s why Ezekiel 18:4,20, while it says “ the soul that is sinning, the same will die”, Jehovah God also adds, “All the souls, TO ME they belong”!

(But if He chooses not to restore our life in the *future* Resurrection (which may apply to some humans), then our soul will effectively be ‘destroyed’. That is what the symbolic “Lake of Fire” means… complete destruction. It explains the reason why ‘death is cast into the Lake of Fire.’ [Revelation 20:14] Revelation 21:4 verifies it: “death will be no more.”


A *Future* Resurrection? Yes. (John 6:40,44…”..at the Last Day”) A resurrection for even the “unrighteous” — John 5:28,29; Acts 24:15.

This is the only hope the Bible gives, for the dead to live again. It will be wonderful!



Here’s an interesting Scripture…
Psalm 9:17, KJV, says:
“The wicked shall be turned into hell, (“Sheol”, Hebrew; “Hades”, Greek) and all the nations that forget God.”


What is Revelation 20:13,14 speaking about?
Vs13, KJV, says “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”



This is speaking of the *future* Resurrection! These dead…. Even those in Hell, which includes the ones mentioned in Psalm 9:17…. are brought back to life!

They’ll be given an opportunity to “come to know” / “might know (KJV)” and gain eternal life. — John 17:3



God is not a cruel fiend, as many have been taught. He’s loving, as we can see when we correctly understand His Word.



At John 11:11-15, Jesus likened death to sleep.



So when we read of God killing those who hated His people the Israelites, and then read 1 John 4:8, “God is love”, we can correlate these facts….

Dead *people* are at rest… they are R.I.P’ing… until the future Resurrection arrives!
 
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TheHC

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I see. One Q for you. When my JW dad died- did his death pay for His sins?
According to Romans 6:7, yes….but Jesus paid for his life to be restored! Otherwise, he would stay dead forever!

But “The payment for sin is death,” (Romans 6:23) Once you’ve paid for something, you don’t keep owing it.
 
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PS95

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Ok, diverting as usual. One has NOTHING to do with the other. Let's pretend I believe in soul sleep. Fine who cares.
AGAIN- Here is the simple Q Again-
It's not rocket science. A yes or no will do. thank you. Then you are FREE of ME.

When my JW dad died- did his death pay for His sins?