The Jerusalem which is above is the heavenly city of promise which God has prepared for His saints

[Scott Downey]

No, I’m saying basing your interpretation of Jerusalem coming down from heaven on symbolism is no more convincing than a full preterist doing the same thing.

They will symbolize everything into a virtualized nonsense, unreal in every way except flowery language. It actually loses all reality and substance, turns into meaningless mush

Like becoming myths and fables, a product of mind think, wispy thoughts blowing on the wind.

Back in university, decades ago, I knew a young lady who told me when we die, we are incorporeal spirits, blown like the wind having no substance and unrecognizable to anyone else. That was her version of heaven

 

[Scott Downey]

Right, that’s why a symbolic interpretation is questionable unless there are multiple examples. A lamb being symbolic of Jesus works because of all the examples in the Bible but saying New Jerusalem coming down from heaven is symbolic of something is questionable.

What they are saying is it's not a true reality.

 

[Scott Downey]

Hebrews 11
9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Not a virtual city at all, it is a real place, it truly exists. It is as real as heaven is real.
Do people think heaven is as a kind of fairy tale myth, a virtual thing and a not a real place too?
Inhabited by wisp of the wind ghostly spirits.

I can't make anyone else change their minds and trying is a waste of my time.
They either agree or disagree, sometime violently.
And do not care what they think, since you have no control over it, only God does.
The point of the ignore button is as a shield, because when you post anything, you have made yourself vulnerable.
Thank God the forum is just a virtual world.
If you did this in the real world, the risks are real, as in your own life.
It is why it says they loved not their lives unto death, because sometimes they will turn on and kill you.

Matthew 7:6
“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

 

[Scott Downey]

About heaven, this.
Luke 12
27 Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; and yet I say to you, even Solomon in all his glory was not [a]arrayed like one of these. 28 If then God so clothes the grass, which today is in the field and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will He clothe you, O you of little faith?

and

2 Cor 5
For we know that if our earthly [a]house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our [b]habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as [c]a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

******************
Life with God in heaven will have a greater reality and substance than anything on this earth
Paul compares our earthly existence to a TENT, and our heavenly existence to a BUIIDING, much more substantial.
Total agreement with Jesus's words.

 

[Zao is life]

There is a city that God has prepared for His saints. And it is the heavenly Jerusalem. which is not of this earth, that is our destiny and where we go when we die.

Hebrews 11, those of the OT, they all died in faith , but none of them received the promise until the Christ came as they could not be perfected without Christ.

Hebrews 11:16
But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 12:22
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

The Heavenly Hope​

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
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But now they have received the promise as it is fulfilled in Christ and now Christ is seated at the right hand of God
Jesus said He would build His CHURCH. This is all part of the New Covenant begun by Christ, those who are in His church are registered in heaven, and not anyone else. But the OT saints would be also brought into His church after they died, but they had to wait for us as they could not be perfected without us, the church of Christ..
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1 Peter 3
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
***************************
With the resurrection of Jesus Christ the way into the heavenly city is now opened to us all, those who died before in the OC have received the promise.

All the OT prophecies point to the kingdom of God and reigning from Jerusalem. But that kingdom's final state is not of this earth.
Jerusalem which is above is free, while the one of this earth is in bondage.

Galatians 4
25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

IMO Paul's subject in Hebrews 12:18-25 is not mountains but covenants, because what he's doing in that passage is comparing the old covenant with the new covenant and using the comparison between the mountain where the old covenant was given with the "mountain" where the new covenant can be found;

and he's also comparing the fact that those who refused the words of Moses - the mediator of the old covenant - did not escape, asking how much worse it will be for those who refuse the words of Jesus - the Mediator of the new covenant - who speaks to us from heaven.

"Mount Zion" in Hebrews 12:18-25 = the new covenant - "just men made perfect through the blood of Christ", and in every generation for the last 2,000 years those who are alive on earth and who are in Christ are Jerusalem on earth, which has no sole geographical location, but many - wherever the saints are gathered together. They are also the tabernacle of God on earth, but New Jerusalem has not descended from heaven yet, IMO.​

 

[Truth7t7]

You don't have to put someone on ignore just because you disagree with them about one particular thing.

Then why do you have me on ignore Israelite?

 

[WPM]

Well, Jesus said I go to prepared a place for you. Is there any reason to think He hasn’t prepared that place yet?

The New Jerusalem is coming down unto a brand new earth that will appear when He appears. The New Jerusalem is located in heaven now and is being prepared for the redeemed. This current earth will be regenerated when He comes.

 

[WPM]

Then why do you have me on ignore Israelite?

I think he is talking about ignoring a person for one particular small thing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then why do you have me on ignore Israelite?

I don't. How could I be talking to you if you were on my Ignore list? I obviously am reading your posts. If you were on my Ignore list I wouldn't see your posts.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What they are saying is it's not a true reality.

That is a lie. Symbols symbolize reality.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They will symbolize everything into a virtualized nonsense, unreal in every way except flowery language. It actually loses all reality and substance, turns into meaningless mush

Like becoming myths and fables, a product of mind think, wispy thoughts blowing on the wind.

Back in university, decades ago, I knew a young lady who told me when we die, we are incorporeal spirits, blown like the wind having no substance and unrecognizable to anyone else. That was her version of heaven

This is like saying that the book of Revelation is just flowery language and actually loses all reality and substance, turns into meaningless mush because of its use of symbolic text. That's nonsense. No one is saying that it's fictional. The symbols represent real things. And not just physical things are real. Spiritual things are real, too.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

IMO Paul's subject in Hebrews 12:18-25 is not mountains but covenants, because what he's doing in that passage is comparing the old covenant with the new covenant and using the comparison between the mountain where the old covenant was given with the "mountain" where the new covenant can be found;​

Right. Just like he did in Galatians 4:22-31.

and he's also comparing the fact that those who refused the words of Moses - the mediator of the old covenant - did not escape, asking how much worse it will be for those who refuse the words of Jesus - the Mediator of the new covenant - who speaks to us from heaven.

"Mount Zion" in Hebrews 12:18-25 = the new covenant - "just men made perfect through the blood of Christ", and in every generation for the last 2,000 years those who are alive on earth and who are in Christ are Jerusalem on earth, which has no sole geographical location, but many - wherever the saints are gathered together. They are also the tabernacle of God on earth, but New Jerusalem has not descended from heaven yet, IMO.​

Agree. But, we will be accused by some of turning all of this into "meaningless mush" by not taking it all literally in a physical sense.

 

[grafted branch]

The New Jerusalem is coming down unto a brand new earth that will appear when He appears. The New Jerusalem is located in heaven now and is being prepared for the redeemed. This current earth will be regenerated when He comes.

I have no issues with what you’re saying except the phrase “This current earth will be regenerated when He comes”. If the elements (hydrogen, oxygen, …) melt then there is nothing physically left of this earth.

It’s possible that Jesus created an entirely new universe, outside of our current universe, that we are unable to detect. That could be considered a NHNE, that could be a physical universe, who knows, but it is possible.

You said in post #75 “He spoke the Word and it was so”. The restitution of all things would then revert back to His words. That is, the restitution of all things in this universe.

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't. How could I be talking to you if you were on my Ignore list? I obviously am reading your posts. If you were on my Ignore list I wouldn't see your posts.

Just Kidding, from the stalker!

 

[Truth7t7]

I think he is talking about ignoring a person for one particular small thing.

I was kidding, he always takes the bait!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just Kidding, from the stalker!

You are a stalker sometimes. Not sure what else to call it when you respond to a post of mine with a comment completely unrelated to what I was talking about.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I was kidding, he always takes the bait!

How could I have possibly known you were kidding? I do make it known that you annoy me sometimes, so I wasn't sure if you may have thought I put you on ignore because of it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have no issues with what you’re saying except the phrase “This current earth will be regenerated when He comes”. If the elements (hydrogen, oxygen, …) melt then there is nothing physically left of this earth.

Something melting does not necessarily result in it being annihilated. Also, it doesn't say the earth will be annihilated, so I think it's just the earth's surface that will be burned up. In my view the earth will be changed similarly to how our bodies will be changed (1 Cor 15:50-54). But, it doesn't say our bodies will be annihilated and replaced, it says they will be changed. The body of Jesus was not annihilated but was resurrected and changed to be such that He could appear seemingly out of nowhere in a locked building.

 

[Truth7t7]

Something melting does not necessarily result in it being annihilated. Also, it doesn't say the earth will be annihilated, so I think it's just the earth's surface that will be burned up.

Your claim is 100% "False" as you follow the standard reformed theology answer on the subject

This present earth will be dissolved down to its very elements at the second coming day of the Lord as scripture clearly teaches below

Will you continue to teach the same false reformed theology?

Revelation 21:1KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 Peter 3;10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

[grafted branch]

Something melting does not necessarily result in it being annihilated. Also, it doesn't say the earth will be annihilated, so I think it's just the earth's surface that will be burned up. In my view the earth will be changed similarly to how our bodies will be changed (1 Cor 15:50-54). But, it doesn't say our bodies will be annihilated and replaced, it says they will be changed. The body of Jesus was not annihilated but was resurrected and changed to be such that He could appear seemingly out of nowhere in a locked building.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

It’s very difficult to know what exactly it’s going to be like and we can speculate but we do know heaven and earth will pass away but His words will not pass away. I take that to mean the restitution of all things.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.