Q for JW- KIEW?
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Keiw
Well-Known Member
Keiw
Well-Known Member
The first resurrection begins at Rev 6:2--When Jesus sits on the throne. Not all 144k are there because the bible is clear that during the tribulation the remaining little flock on earth get changed in the twinkling of an eye and go to heaven. The trib occurs after the fall of Babylon the great( worldwide false religions=99% of them)
You cant understand rev 14. You probably believe virgins are speaking of literal women but its not and the bible explains what it really is. But religions of darkness( ones apart of babylon the great) cannot explain that.
Berean
Well-Known Member
Sure I do ...
“Who then is the faithful and wise servant,
whom his master has put in charge of his household,
to give them food at the proper time"
So ... every time there is a new understanding that is the "proper time"?Let me ask Keiw, why would your God have you believe something and then change it? When was the "proper time"?
For instance, in 1932, it was taught that Sodom and Gomorrah WILL be resurrected (Health and Life 1932 p. 43) Russell throughout his ministry also believed they would be resurrected, after all, Jesus died "a ransom for ALL."
In 1958 it was decided they WILL NOT be resurrected (From Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained 1958 p. 236). Now, from your perspective, or the perspective of the Governing Body, that would be what you call "new light." Jehovah corrected a long-held view that apparently was incorrect. The "proper time" had come, they WILL NOT be resurrected. That I can understand.
In The Watchtower of March 1, 1965, pp. 137-144 it's stated that they WILL be resurrected.
But then in 1982, it was decided they WILL NOT be resurrected. (The Watchtower August 15, 1982 p. 26).
But wait, there's more, in The Watchtower August 15, 1982 p. 26, you get "new light", it says SOME will be resurrected. Well, that's a change, we went from WILL to WILL NOT to WILL again to SOME. Aah, the "proper time" had arrived. It's neither, the new understanding is SOME.
But then in the 1989 edition of You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, p. 179, says they WILL NOT be resurrected.
Now on the JW Broadcast of January 2024 and the May 2024 Watchtower the Governing Body decided, after all the flip-flopping on this particular issue they DON'T KNOW, maybe they will, maybe they won't.
This is just one of the hundreds of subjects / beliefs that the Society, your slave class has flipped-flopped on. The Resurrection is a simple Biblical doctrine. It's summed up in one verse 1 Timothy 2:6; Jesus "who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." That due time will be during the Millennial Kingdom, when all of mankind will be resurrected, learn the reason for the permission of evil, grow to perfection, and then be tested during the time Satan is let loose. If your slave class can't understand the MILK of God's Word, how can you trust them with the MEAT of God's Word?
Keiw
Well-Known Member
God does it like that for a reason. All through the years the fakes have been weeded out by doing it like that. The fakes could end up hurting others spirituality if they remained. --There are 2 resurrections-The first began at Rev 6:2( little flock)-- the second at Rev 20.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I would like to add. The death that Jesus received as a result of taking our sins upon Himself, was not the death of sleep from which all are raised, but the second death of eternal damnation for sinners, from which there is no resurrection. It is that death which are the ears were earn as sinners, it is that death, the second, from which we are saved through the blood of Christ.Kiew and Jane,
I would like to start with Romans 1 to understand these verses in context with my JW friends. Feel free of course to check me with your NWT bible. Please pray for understanding and read along with me verse by verse? This is a letter and needs to be read as such, agree? I am not adding my own commentary in between verses 1-10. We are just reading the scriptures, ok? I am not trying to trick anyone.
Romans 6:1-2
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
10Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
I think that's enough to show the proper context, so JWs can see that Paul is not speaking about our physical deaths at all, but he is referring to our death to sin and rebirth to life in this present time!!!!
As you continue reading the chapter to the end you will come to verses 22- 23. Read slowly.
22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Verse 23 in context says death is the punishment for sin. Yes it is.. it is eternal death. Sin wage = death. It is what you've earned. It is not you paying God. It is God paying you your wages ( what you have earned) for sin. Do you see?!!!!!
Happily, Paul's sentence continues.. That Death WAGE for the sinner is being contrasted with the FREE GIFT of God of eternal life only found in Christ.
There are two opposing absolutes there. Do you see them?
SIN-- brings punishment, your wage, what you have earned, your pay =DEATH.
VS.
ETERNAL LIFE (*everlasting, let's not split hairs) -- Is not a wage. See the change? It's a what? A free gift. You can't earn it. It's not what you deserve or earned. YOU dont deserve this GIFT. It's a FREE GIFT. See Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are you saved through faith, this is not of yourselves, it is a” – What? – “gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.”
There is only ONE WAY for all anyone to have their sins forgiven. God has sent His ONLY SON, JESUS to pay for our sins. HE IS THE ONLY WAY.
Just so that nobody gets confused, it is a free gift.
So, if you want what you deserve, God will give it to you. But if you want what you don’t deserve, God will give that to you as well! There is NO OTHER WAY. ONLY by the BLOOD OF JESUS! There is NO OTHER WAY. HE is the WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.
Please read this over and over until you truly understand. Take your good ole time. Over and over and over... then believe God!I know it is upsetting to think that the watchtower is wrong in telling you that you can pay for your own sins. BUT we have to believe God, not man. Jehovah requires a spotless, blameless lamb! <----- That's not you or me!!
That's JESUS!
I know you will have many questions once you grasp this. It's normal! There are answers!
If anyone reads this- please help me in prayers for KIEW and JANE for understanding!
Kiew, I just saw your last post. I will come back later with many verses to prove to you that Jesus DID DIE For YOUR sins! Without Him, all there is, is your pay, DEATH.
TrevorHL
Member
Greetings Brakelte,
Kind regards
Trevor
This is a long running thread, but I will answer your post directly. Jesus suffered and died the human death that was passed on to Adam and his descendants, not the second death. He was resurrected from this death.
Those who believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus and are united with him by water baptism will be saved out of the death that we inherit from Adam, the first death.
Kind regards
Trevor
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
JESUS removed our sins so that BOTH 'deaths' can be defeated.
Otherwise, God could not raise our bodies from the grave.
One need only read rest of chapter in context to see we are physically still alive. Verse 13 a physically dead person can not use their bodies anymore.,
Romans 6
Easy-to-Read Version
Dead to Sin but Alive in Christ
6 So do you think we should continue sinning so that God will give us more and more grace? 2 Of course not! Our old sinful life ended. It’s dead. So how can we continue living in sin? 3 Did you forget that all of us became part of Christ Jesus when we were baptized? In our baptism we shared in his death. 4 So when we were baptized, we were buried with Christ and took part in his death. And just as Christ was raised from death by the wonderful power of the Father, so we can now live a new life.
5 Christ died, and we have been joined with him by dying too. So we will also be joined with him by rising from death as he did. 6 We know that our old life was put to death on the cross with Christ. This happened so that our sinful selves would have no power over us. Then we would not be slaves to sin. 7 Anyone who has died is made free from sin’s control.
8 If we died with Christ, we know that we will also live with him. 9 Christ was raised from death. And we know that he cannot die again. Death has no power over him now. 10 Yes, when Christ died, he died to defeat the power of sin one time—enough for all time. He now has a new life, and his new life is with God. 11 In the same way, you should see yourselves as being dead to the power of sin and alive for God through Christ Jesus.
12 But don’t let sin control your life here on earth. You must not be ruled by the things your sinful self makes you want to do. 13 Don’t offer the parts of your body to serve sin. Don’t use your bodies to do evil, but offer yourselves to God, as people who have died and now live. Offer the parts of your body to God to be used for doing good. 14 Sin will not be your master, because you are not under law. You now live under God’s grace.
Slaves of Goodness
15 So what should we do? Should we sin because we are under grace and not under law? Certainly not! 16 Surely you know that you become the slaves of whatever you give yourselves to. Anything or anyone you follow will be your master. You can follow sin, or you can obey God. Following sin brings spiritual death, but obeying God makes you right with him. 17 In the past you were slaves to sin—sin controlled you. But thank God, you fully obeyed what you were taught. 18 You were made free from sin, and now you are slaves to what is right. 19 I use this example from everyday life because you need help in understanding spiritual truths. In the past you offered the parts of your body to be slaves to your immoral and sinful thoughts. The result was that you lived only for sin. In the same way, you must now offer yourselves to be slaves to what is right. Then you will live only for God.
20 In the past you were slaves to sin, and you did not even think about doing right. 21 You did evil things, and now you are ashamed of what you did. Did those things help you? No, they only brought death. 22 But now you are free from sin. You have become slaves of God, and the result is that you live only for God. This will bring you eternal life. 23 When people sin, they earn what sin pays—death. But God gives his people a free gift—eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
only the righteous are spared the 2nd death=Few. Many think they get grace, salvation will be saved, but are in reality-these-Matt 7:21-23
TrevorHL
Member
Greetings David in NJ,
Daniel 12:1-3 (KJV): 1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Revelation 2:10-12 (KJV): 10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Jesus will not raise everyone, only some of the wicked who will be rejected at the Judgement Seat. Only these are in any way subject to the Second Death and they will suffer the Second Death. There is no salvation from the Second Death.
Kind regards
Trevor
Jesus when he returns will save the faithful who are alive from the first death and grant them immortality. Jesus will save the faithful that are already dead by raising them out of death and will grant them immortality.
Daniel 12:1-3 (KJV): 1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Revelation 2:10-12 (KJV): 10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Jesus will not raise everyone, only some of the wicked who will be rejected at the Judgement Seat. Only these are in any way subject to the Second Death and they will suffer the Second Death. There is no salvation from the Second Death.
Kind regards
Trevor
Berean
Well-Known Member
If you understood GRACE, you would know that it means UNDESERVED KINDNESS. What part of undeserved don't you understand?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Thank You Trevor
It is BEAUTIFUL that you SEE and KNOW this from Daniel chapter 12 - not many do!
TrevorHL
Member
Greetings Berean,
Romans 3:21-26 (KJV): 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Kind regards
Trevor
It will be interesting to see how you elaborate on this aspect of GRACE. The following seems to indicate that GRACE is bestowed on those who believe.
Romans 3:21-26 (KJV): 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Kind regards
Trevor
Berean
Well-Known Member
“But now the righteousness of God without [apart from] the law is manifested, being witnessed by [in] the law and the prophets.” Paul explained that the law hints at a new message—there's a different way. He emphasized that the gospel was foretold in the law. Even when the law was active, God interacted with some individuals differently because of their faith, while most people were not seeking Him. In the Old Testament, only a few—like the holy prophets, some priests, and a couple of kings—truly sought God. The books of Kings and Chronicles mention only a few good kings among many. With the law given to Israel, a Jew with the right mindset should understand that everyone, including Jews, has sinned. Likewise, Gentiles should recognize their sinfulness through God's teachings. Therefore, the law serves to guide everyone to Christ, revealing their need for Him. Jesus is the way and hope for sinners.
“The righteousness of God ... is by [the] faith of Jesus Christ.” For all who believe, there's no distinction between Jews and Gentiles. The Law promised eternal life to the Jews for their obedience, but since no one could obey perfectly, everyone faced death, meaning no Jew could claim superiority. Gentiles, lacking the Law, were separated from God and judged by their own conscience and nature. The Jews faced even greater condemnation due to the Law. A key message of this letter is that true justification is achieved through faith; hope and blessings flow from faith in Jesus. This teaching was foretold in the Law and the prophets, so what Paul shared was not a new idea. The righteous will live their lives by trusting in God's guidance through all challenges and situations.
Paul argued that the Law could not justify anyone, and the only way to be justified was through Jesus Christ. The Jews viewed Jesus as a false Messiah, while the Gentiles sought life after death but lacked a Savior.
Justification is a gift from God through Christ that we receive by faith. It's given by God's grace and cannot be earned. To receive justification, one must fully accept and believe in Jesus. The Abrahamic Covenant became unconditional when Abraham left his homeland, showing that faith is essential, just as it is for Christians in their lives. Imagine being a traveler sharing the news of Jesus Christ. Paul was beginning to address the issue of sin and the hope available to both Jews and Gentiles. He was essentially saying, 'I am here to share the message of Jesus Christ and his teachings. You have heard much before, but I will reveal a new and living way. First, I want to emphasize that we all fall short of God's glory through our own righteousness, which is worthless.' Paul would then explain the redemption found in Christ Jesus.
God sent His Son to atone for sins through faith in His blood. The news of Jesus' crucifixion spread among the Jews, who were aware of His miracles and teachings, realizing that an innocent man had been wrongfully executed. However, they did not fully understand His message. Paul explained that Jesus' death served a purpose: to atone for humanity's sins. Some pagan religions believed in appeasing their gods by sacrificing animals, so Paul aimed to reason with those who could understand that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins. He emphasized that Jesus represents righteousness and the means of receiving forgiveness through faith in His blood, similar to how atonement was made in the past with blood on the Mercy Seat. This concept resonated with Jews familiar with the Tabernacle.
Paul stated that God is righteous and also the one who makes others righteous through faith in Jesus. God is just because of natural law, human conscience, and the teachings of the prophets. Now, He justifies sinners by allowing them to be covered by Christ's righteousness without compromising justice.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
TrevorHL
Member
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
The first death is certainly that which were inherited from Adam. But it is not that death which Paul says is the wages of sin.
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. ”
Revelation 2:11 KJV
“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. ”
Revelation 20:6 KJV
“6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. ”
Revelation 21:6-8 KJV
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