Reading but Never Seeing: Why Scripture Remains Hidden to the Lost

[Davy]

No — I’m not “looking for excuses to hate Jews.” That’s a lazy accusation meant to avoid dealing with the actual scriptures I quoted.

Did I not address the Romans 11 Scripture in my post #9? Then why would you tell a lie and try to claim that I'm avoiding the actual Scriptures in question? That would be an automatic loss in a real debate.

So you need to address those Romans 11 Scriptures in my post#9 before anything.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Did I not address the Romans 11 Scripture in my post #9? Then why would you tell a lie and try to claim that I'm avoiding the actual Scriptures in question? That would be an automatic loss in a real debate.

So you need to address those Romans 11 Scriptures in my post#9 before anything.

You didn’t address Romans 11 — you weaponized it. There’s a difference. You quoted it selectively to shield a system (Scofieldism) that Paul himself would condemn. And yes, I will point that out, because twisting Scripture to protect unbelief is exactly what Paul warned against.

Let me break it down for you — again:

“What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened.” — Romans 11:7
“They were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.” — Romans 11:20
“If they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted back in.” — Romans 11:23

Paul isn’t propping up an unbelieving nation-state. He’s pleading for repentance through Christ. That’s the context.

And no — pointing out Paul’s warning about hardened, unbelieving Israel does not equal “hating Jews.” That’s your escape hatch because you don’t want to deal with the actual argument:

The New Covenant defines Israel by faith in Christ.

Not ethnicity. Not geography. Not political allegiance.

“If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed.” — Galatians 3:29
“Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” — Romans 9:6

That’s not my “opinion.” That’s the Apostle Paul. So either engage with his theology, or admit you’ve built your beliefs on Scofield instead of Scripture.

 

[bdavidc]

Oh, well... yeah those exist, but I wouldn't limit it to just the pretenders.

There are plenty of genuine Christians out there who really don't read/study/understand much of their Bibles. Fortunately, being a Bible scholar isn't what is required. Believe God. Do right. Love each other. God will take care of the rest.

Yes, that may be true, or at least I hope it is. Because I used to be that way myself until I actually started reading and studying the Bible. I would come across verses like these, and I got concerned. I realized I had been deceived, and I didn’t want to be one of the people the Bible warns about, those who claim to believe but live in spiritual laziness and disobedience.

The idea that someone can be a genuine Christian and yet remain uninterested in God's Word is not supported by Scripture. Jesus said plainly in John 8:31, “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed.” And again in 1 Peter 2:2, “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.” True faith creates hunger, not perfection overnight, but a desire to grow in truth and obedience.

The casual mindset that says, “Believe God, do right, love each other, and God will take care of the rest,” sounds spiritual on the surface, but it falls apart under the weight of Scripture. What is “right” is defined by the Word of God (Psalm 119:172), and love without truth is counterfeit. 1 John 2:4 says, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” God's Word isn’t optional, it’s life and truth for those who are His.

This is the verses that really made me want to read the bible and get to know Him. Jesus warned people himself about spiritual indifference in Revelation 3:15–16, saying, “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm... I will spue thee out of my mouth.” That’s a warning, not to atheists, but to those who profess belief while living half-hearted, lukewarm lives. And even more sobering is Matthew 7:23, where Jesus says to many who thought they were His, “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

I also saw this posted somewhere, and it really made me think after reading Revelation 3:15–16 and Matthew 7:23: “If you were accused of being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?” That question hits hard if you’re honest with Scripture.

So yes, salvation begins with faith in Christ alone, but real faith does not remain casual, disengaged, or indifferent. It leads to repentance, transformation, and a desire for the Word. I’m speaking from experience, and I thank God He opened my eyes before it was too late.

 

[bdavidc]

No,it is drawn from it.

If it’s truly drawn from Scripture, then it must align with the full context of the Bible, not a selective interpretation. Scripture says in Romans 11:32, “For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.” The Greek word for all is pantas, which means exactly that, all, without restriction. This is reinforced by Titus 2:11, which says, “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.” That is not an illusion, that is the revealed truth of God’s Word. If we’re going to claim to stand on Scripture alone, then we cannot dismiss the clear declarations that God's mercy and call to salvation are extended to everyone.

Yes, John 6:44 says no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him, but the same Greek word helkō is used in John 12:32, where Jesus says, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” If helkō means a limited, irresistible drawing in John 6:44, then it must mean the same in John 12:32, which would mean all are drawn, yet not all are saved. That proves the drawing is resistible. Jesus wept over Jerusalem and said, “How often would I have gathered thy children together... and ye would not” (Matthew 23:37). The failure was not in God’s drawing, but in their refusal. That’s what Scripture says.

The term “elect” (Greek: eklektos) does not mean arbitrarily selected before birth apart from response. Ephesians 1:4 says we are chosen “in Him,” not to be placed in Him. Romans 8:29 explains the basis: “For whom he did foreknow (proginōskō, to know beforehand), he also did predestinate.” God predestined those whom He foreknew would believe, not the other way around. That is what the text says, no more, no less.

As for the Lamb’s Book of Life, Revelation 3:5 says, “He that overcometh... I will not blot out his name.” You cannot erase what was never written. That verse directly challenges the claim of an unchangeable list fixed before time. It shows human response matters, and God responds to that faith.

Finally, 2 Peter 3:9 is unambiguous: God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” The Greek word for “willing” is boulomai, meaning a genuine desire or intention. This is not a secret will in contradiction to His revealed one, it is a clear statement of God’s heart toward all.

So no, limiting the offer of salvation to a predetermined few is not drawn from Scripture, it is imposed on Scripture. When taken as a whole, the Bible shows that God desires all to be saved, draws all, and commands all to repent and believe. The invitation is real, the call is genuine, and the responsibility to respond is on the hearer. That is Sola Scriptura.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

If it’s truly drawn from Scripture, then it must align with the full context of the Bible, not a selective interpretation. Scripture says in Romans 11:32, “For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.” The Greek word for all is pantas, which means exactly that, all, without restriction. This is reinforced by Titus 2:11, which says, “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.” That is not an illusion, that is the revealed truth of God’s Word. If we’re going to claim to stand on Scripture alone, then we cannot dismiss the clear declarations that God's mercy and call to salvation are extended to everyone.

Yes, John 6:44 says no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him, but the same Greek word helkō is used in John 12:32, where Jesus says, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” If helkō means a limited, irresistible drawing in John 6:44, then it must mean the same in John 12:32, which would mean all are drawn, yet not all are saved. That proves the drawing is resistible. Jesus wept over Jerusalem and said, “How often would I have gathered thy children together... and ye would not” (Matthew 23:37). The failure was not in God’s drawing, but in their refusal. That’s what Scripture says.

The term “elect” (Greek: eklektos) does not mean arbitrarily selected before birth apart from response. Ephesians 1:4 says we are chosen “in Him,” not to be placed in Him. Romans 8:29 explains the basis: “For whom he did foreknow (proginōskō, to know beforehand), he also did predestinate.” God predestined those whom He foreknew would believe, not the other way around. That is what the text says, no more, no less.

As for the Lamb’s Book of Life, Revelation 3:5 says, “He that overcometh... I will not blot out his name.” You cannot erase what was never written. That verse directly challenges the claim of an unchangeable list fixed before time. It shows human response matters, and God responds to that faith.

Finally, 2 Peter 3:9 is unambiguous: God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” The Greek word for “willing” is boulomai, meaning a genuine desire or intention. This is not a secret will in contradiction to His revealed one, it is a clear statement of God’s heart toward all.

So no, limiting the offer of salvation to a predetermined few is not drawn from Scripture, it is imposed on Scripture. When taken as a whole, the Bible shows that God desires all to be saved, draws all, and commands all to repent and believe. The invitation is real, the call is genuine, and the responsibility to respond is on the hearer. That is Sola Scriptura.

False teaching noted.

 

[Wick Stick]

“Believe God, do right, love each other, and God will take care of the rest,” sounds spiritual on the surface, but it falls apart under the weight of Scripture.

Really? Those come from Scripture. Which one do you think "falls apart?"

• Believe God
• Do Right
• Love Each Other
• God Will Take Care of the Rest

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Really? Those come from Scripture. Which one do you think "falls apart?"

• Believe God
• Do Right
• Love Each Other
• God Will Take Care of the Rest

Good question — and yeah, each phrase comes from Scripture in spirit.
But I think you’re missing what Bdavidc was actually saying.

He wasn’t attacking “Believe God” or “Love Each Other.”
He was challenging how that whole phrase, taken as a complete package, can become a feel-good summary that downplays the cost of following Jesus, sidesteps repentance, skips spiritual warfare, and reduces the Gospel to "try hard and be nice." “God will take care of the rest” can become a kind of spiritual autopilot slogan that softens the edge of the very real warnings Jesus and the apostles gave about false teachers, deception, persecution, and judgment.

So it's not that any one part "falls apart" — it's that the slogan as a whole lacks the weight and urgency of the full Gospel Jesus actually preached.

 

[bdavidc]

False teaching noted.

The charge of "false teaching" is serious, but throwing that label around without addressing a single Scripture point raised does not prove anything. If we are truly standing on Sola Scriptura, then every claim must be tested against the full counsel of God (Acts 20:27), not cherry-picked texts. Let’s go point by point, biblically.

Romans 11:32 clearly says God has “concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.” That is not a suggestion, that is a stated purpose of God. The word for "all" (Greek: pantas) is the same word used elsewhere for universal statements. Titus 2:11 confirms it, “The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.” This isn’t philosophical speculation, it’s Scripture.

As for John 6:44, yes, the drawing of the Father is necessary. But Jesus used the same Greek word helkō in John 12:32, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” If “draw” means an irresistible compulsion in chapter 6, it must mean the same in chapter 12. Yet clearly not all are saved, proving the drawing is real but resistible. That’s reinforced in Matthew 23:37, where Jesus says, “How often would I have gathered thy children together... and ye would not.” He wanted to gather them, they refused. That is Jesus explaining rejection, not a lack of election.

Regarding election, Ephesians 1:4 says we are chosen “in Him,” not chosen to be placed into Him, but chosen because we are in Him. Romans 8:29 gives the basis, “Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.” The Greek proginōskō means to know beforehand. God predestines on the basis of foreknown response, not by arbitrary decree apart from that. That’s not twisting, it’s reading the text in order.

Revelation 3:5 is ignored by many who push unconditional election. It says, “I will not blot out his name out of the book of life.” You cannot blot out what was never there. That verse alone refutes the idea of an unchangeable, eternally fixed list.

And 2 Peter 3:9 makes God’s desire plain, “The Lord is... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” The word for “willing” is boulomai, meaning intention or desire. This is not describing a fake offer or hidden will, it’s declaring what God genuinely wants. To reject that is to reject God’s own words about Himself.

Labeling all this as “false teaching” without answering a single verse is not how truth is determined. If you’re going to stand on Scripture, then respond to the Scripture, not with name-calling, but with rightly divided truth (2 Timothy 2:15). If you can’t, then it’s not my position that’s false, it’s your system that’s unbiblical.

The invitation of the Gospel is open. “Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17). That is the Word of God. Stand on it.

 

[bdavidc]

Really? Those come from Scripture. Which one do you think "falls apart?"

• Believe God
• Do Right
• Love Each Other
• God Will Take Care of the Rest

Let’s test that phrase, “Believe God, do right, love each other, God will take care of the rest,” against the full truth of Scripture. On the surface, it may sound spiritual, but slogans are not Scripture. Truth comes from what God has actually said, not what sounds comforting. The Bible warns about having “a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof” (2 Timothy 3:5), and that’s what happens when we reduce the Christian life to vague phrases instead of grounding it in the Word.

Yes, we are commanded to believe God, but belief in Scripture is never passive or empty. James 2:19 says, “Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well, the devils also believe, and tremble.” Saving faith leads to repentance and obedience. Jesus asked, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). True belief changes how we live, not perfection, but direction.

As for “do right,” that raises the question, what defines right? Proverbs 14:12 says, “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” Psalm 119:172 says, “All thy commandments are righteousness.” So doing right is not based on feelings, culture, or what seems moral, it’s based on God’s commands in Scripture.

“Love each other” is also a biblical command, but not apart from truth. 1 John 5:2–3 says, “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments.” Biblical love does not ignore sin, it doesn’t affirm rebellion, and it doesn’t soften the truth. Love without obedience is not biblical love.

Finally, “God will take care of the rest” is true, but only for those who are truly walking with Him. Romans 8:28 says, “All things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” That’s not a blanket promise for everyone. It’s conditional. God does not promise to bless a lukewarm, careless life (Revelation 3:16). He warns against it.

So the issue is not the individual words in that phrase, it’s the shallow interpretation that often hides behind it. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed” (John 8:31). A real disciple wants to grow, obey, and stay rooted in Scripture. A slogan can’t replace the Word of God. Faith that saves produces fruit, and casual, indifferent faith is no faith at all (James 2:17, Matthew 7:21–23). If your Christianity has no hunger for truth, no desire to follow Christ, and no conviction of sin, then according to Scripture, it is counterfeit.

 

[Davy]

You didn’t address Romans 11 — you weaponized it. There’s a difference. You quoted it selectively to shield a system (Scofieldism) that Paul himself would condemn. And yes, I will point that out, because twisting Scripture to protect unbelief is exactly what Paul warned against.

I most certainly did no such thing. Who ever heard of "weaponizing" a Bible Scripture anyway! That's silliness!

The subject matter I posted is written in Romans 11 and is the "spirit of slumber" that God put upon the majority of Apostle Paul's brethren the Jews.

Rom 11:7-10
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, "Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway."
KJV

That's what I posted in my Post#9 from Romans 11, which for some reason you apparently are all heated up about with what Apostle Paul said above.

Let me break it down for you — again:

“What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened.” — Romans 11:7

Nah... you cannot just stop at that Romans 11:7 verse, because that subject is continued in the next Romans 11:8-10 verses, WHICH YOU LEFT OUT!

“They were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.” — Romans 11:20
“If they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted back in.” — Romans 11:23

Paul isn’t propping up an unbelieving nation-state. He’s pleading for repentance through Christ. That’s the context.

And no — pointing out Paul’s warning about hardened, unbelieving Israel does not equal “hating Jews.” That’s your escape hatch because you don’t want to deal with the actual argument:

The New Covenant defines Israel by faith in Christ.

Not ethnicity. Not geography. Not political allegiance.

“If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed.” — Galatians 3:29
“Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” — Romans 9:6

That’s not my “opinion.” That’s the Apostle Paul. So either engage with his theology, or admit you’ve built your beliefs on Scofield instead of Scripture.

All I'm seeing you do is SLICE N' DICE Paul's Romans 11 Scripture to suit your own personal theory, instead of keeping with all that is written there.

And by the way, I DO NOT BELIEVE IN A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY, I AM POST-TRIB. SO I DO NOT FOLLOW CYRUS SCOFIELD'S TEACHINGS.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

I most certainly did no such thing. Who ever heard of "weaponizing" a Bible Scripture anyway! That's silliness!

The subject matter I posted is written in Romans 11 and is the "spirit of slumber" that God put upon the majority of Apostle Paul's brethren the Jews.

Rom 11:7-10
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, "Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway."
KJV

That's what I posted in my Post#9 from Romans 11, which for some reason you apparently are all heated up about with what Apostle Paul said above.




Nah... you cannot just stop at that Romans 11:7 verse, because that subject is continued in the next Romans 11:8-10 verses, WHICH YOU LEFT OUT!



All I'm seeing you do is SLICE N' DICE Paul's Romans 11 Scripture to suit your own personal theory, instead of keeping with all that is written there.

And by the way, I DO NOT BELIEVE IN A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY, I AM POST-TRIB. SO I DO NOT FOLLOW CYRUS SCOFIELD'S TEACHINGS.

So you quote Romans 11:7–10 as if it’s a license to exalt unbelieving Israel — as if God’s “spirit of slumber” was a badge of honor instead of a divine judgment. Do you even hear yourself? You’re quoting verses of rebuke and blindness and pretending they somehow support your doctrine — when Paul was mourning their condition, not celebrating it.

Let’s be clear:
“They were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.” — Romans 11:20

But you don’t tremble. You boast.
You cling to a fleshly identity and wave a geopolitical flag as if it replaces the Cross.
That’s not theology. That’s idolatry.

Jesus said it plainly:
“Your house is left to you desolate.” — Matthew 23:38
“If God were your Father, you would love Me.” — John 8:42
“You are of your father the devil… he was a murderer from the beginning.” — John 8:44

And you call quoting that “antisemitic”?
Then congratulations — you’ve just accused Jesus of antisemitism.

Paul said:
“They are not all Israel who are of Israel.” — Romans 9:6
“He is not a Jew who is one outwardly… but inwardly.” — Romans 2:28–29
“There is neither Jew nor Greek… for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” — Galatians 3:28
“If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” — Galatians 3:29

So when you prop up an unbelieving, manufactured, secular nation — Rothschild’s False Israel™ — and call it chosen, you spit on the blood of Christ that tore down every wall of separation. You invent a second people of God that Paul never taught, and you silence the Gospel to preserve the flesh.

Peter called the Church:
“A chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession…” — 1 Peter 2:9

You want to talk about blindness? Paul already diagnosed it:
“Even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.” — 2 Corinthians 3:15
“But even if our Gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.” — 2 Corinthians 4:3
“The god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers.” — 2 Corinthians 4:4

That’s the veil you defend.
That’s the blindness you glorify.
That’s the Israel you idolize.

Meanwhile, the Messiah you claim to follow says:
“I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” — John 14:6
“My Kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight… but now is My kingdom not from hence.” — John 18:36

The Body of Christ is Israel — not a piece of dirt in the Middle East.
It can’t be.
Because the King’s Kingdom is not of this Earth.

You’re not waiting on a third temple — the Church is the temple.
You’re not awaiting a national restoration — the Cross already fulfilled it.
You’re not honoring prophecy — you’re dragging it backward to satisfy your flesh.

The Kingdom has come. The veil is torn.
And the true Israel now wears robes of righteousness — not flags of unbelief.

Yet you preach a kingdom of tanks, borders, and bloodlines — not the risen Christ enthroned in heaven.
You reject the cross-shaped crown to bow before a flag marked with the Star of Remphan.
You trade the Kingdom of God for the kingdoms of men — and then have the audacity to call it “biblical prophecy.”

Not through a third temple.
Not through bloodlines.
Not through the flags of man.
Only through Christ — crucified, risen, enthroned.

You say you don’t believe in the pre-trib rapture? Fine.
But you still bow to the same golden calf: a two-covenant gospel with one path for Jews and one for the Church.
And that is another gospel — and Paul had harsh words for that, too:

“If anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be accursed.” — Galatians 1:8

You don’t get to hide behind selective verses while ignoring the entire thrust of the New Covenant.
You don’t get to exalt a people who reject Christ while dismissing the Body that is Christ.
You don’t get to redefine (the Rothschild's False) Israel to fit your political narrative — the New Testament already did that.

And if Jesus Christ, Paul, and Peter aren’t enough to convince you…
Then admit it:

You’ve built your theology on Scofield — not Scripture.
You’ve replaced the Gospel with a chart.
You’ve traded the Messiah for a map.
And you’ve chosen the veil — over the veil that was torn.

 

[Davy]

So you quote Romans 11:7–10 as if it’s a license to exalt unbelieving Israel — as if God’s “spirit of slumber” was a badge of honor instead of a divine judgment. Do you even hear yourself? You’re quoting verses of rebuke and blindness and pretending they somehow support your doctrine — when Paul was mourning their condition, not celebrating it.

What a bunch of STUPID SENSATIONALISM OF LIES that come out of your wicked mouth! May my Heavenly Father rebuke you in The Name of Jesus Christ! And it's coming, wait on it!


Nope, I am not... going to allow you to EVADE that Romans 11:7-10 Scripture about God having put that "spirit of slumber" upon the majority of Paul's brethren the Jews.

WHY... God did that is another subject of Romans 11 that Paul covered. So of course God did that so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. Nothing difficult about that.

Yet it is the FACT... that God Himself... put that spiritual blindness upon the majority of Jews that is my point, regardless of what you claim.

And what that means is... that those Jews which HE BLINDED AWAY FROM THE GOSPEL, cannot make their free-will choice to believe UNTIL... GOD REMOVES THEIR BLINDNESS. And that is exactly what Apostle Paul revealed in the below Romans 11 verses:

And the following is where YOU ARE VERY WEAK IN UNDERSTANDING ROMANS 11 BY PAUL, so I will cover it line upon line for you...

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Did you catch that? Blindness in part is happened to Israel, meaning upon the majority of those Jews, Paul's brethren, UNTIL... "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in".

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Who are YOU then to try and claim those unbelieving Jews are doomed to destruction?!? You are NOT GOD. So you don't believe GOD has the Power to save them, and take away their sins, once their blindness He put upon them is removed by Him??

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

That means God has NOT forgotten those unbelieving Jews He blinded away from The Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are still... under HIS ELECT CALLING TODAY. And this was done to them for the Gentiles sake, so The Gospel would go to them also! Like Paul said there, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes". But they ain't gonna' be like that forever.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV

I don't see any MERCY TOWARDS THE UNBELIEVING JEWS IN YOUR... SPEECH! If there is an anti-Semitic person on this Forum, it is DEFINITELY YOU!

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

What a bunch of STUPID SENSATIONALISM OF LIES that come out of your wicked mouth! May my Heavenly Father rebuke you in The Name of Jesus Christ! And it's coming, wait on it!


Nope, I am not... going to allow you to EVADE that Romans 11:7-10 Scripture about God having put that "spirit of slumber" upon the majority of Paul's brethren the Jews.

WHY... God did that is another subject of Romans 11 that Paul covered. So of course God did that so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. Nothing difficult about that.

Yet it is the FACT... that God Himself... put that spiritual blindness upon the majority of Jews that is my point, regardless of what you claim.

And what that means is... that those Jews which HE BLINDED AWAY FROM THE GOSPEL, cannot make their free-will choice to believe UNTIL... GOD REMOVES THEIR BLINDNESS. And that is exactly what Apostle Paul revealed in the below Romans 11 verses:

And the following is where YOU ARE VERY WEAK IN UNDERSTANDING ROMANS 11 BY PAUL, so I will cover it line upon line for you...

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Did you catch that? Blindness in part is happened to Israel, meaning upon the majority of those Jews, Paul's brethren, UNTIL... "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in".

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Who are YOU then to try and claim those unbelieving Jews are doomed to destruction?!? You are NOT GOD. So you don't believe GOD has the Power to save them, and take away their sins, once their blindness He put upon them is removed by Him??

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

That means God has NOT forgotten those unbelieving Jews He blinded away from The Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are still... under HIS ELECT CALLING TODAY. And this was done to them for the Gentiles sake, so The Gospel would go to them also! Like Paul said there, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes". But they ain't gonna' be like that forever.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV

I don't see any MERCY TOWARDS THE UNBELIEVING JEWS IN YOUR... SPEECH! If there is an anti-Semitic person on this Forum, it is DEFINITELY YOU!

You dare accuse me of being "anti-Semitic" for quoting the King of the Jews?
That just shows how lost you truly are.

You’ve fallen so deep into Scofield’s delusion, you can’t even tell the difference between rebuke and hatred — between truth and idolatry.

I’m not anti-Semitic. I’m anti-blindness.
And the Jews who reject Christ?
They’re not the “chosen.” They’re not “elect.”
They are, as Paul said, “enemies of the Gospel” (Romans 11:28).

Not my words. Scripture.
The same passage you butchered in defense of unbelief.

Let’s walk it again, slowly, since you’re clearly more committed to nationalism than truth.

“God gave them a spirit of slumber.” (Romans 11:8)
“Let their eyes be darkened… bow down their back always.” (v10)
That’s not mercy. That’s not covenantal favor.
That’s judgment.

You pretend Paul’s groaning lament was a prophecy of future reward — as if blindness is a badge of honor.
As if rejecting the Son somehow guarantees a pass from the Father.
That is open blasphemy.

You skipped the trembling.
You skipped the warning.
You skipped the reason they were broken off in the first place:

“They were broken off for unbelief — and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.” (Romans 11:20)

But you don’t tremble. You boast.
You exalt the natural branches even while they remain in rebellion.

Paul already destroyed that fantasy:
“Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” (Romans 9:6)
“It is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God.” (Romans 9:8)
“If you are in Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed.” (Galatians 3:29)

The Church is the Israel of God.
The remnant is those in Christ — Jew or Gentile.
That’s the mystery revealed in Romans 11, not concealed.

So stop pretending God is going to rapture His enemies.
Stop twisting Paul’s grief into your nationalist redemption arc.
Stop calling judgment “mercy” just because it makes you feel better about denying the supremacy of Christ.

There is no covenant outside of Jesus.
There is no election in rebellion.
And there is no Gospel that includes those who trample the Son of God underfoot.

If you really loved Israel, you’d preach Christ.
But you don’t — because you fear men more than God.

Repent before the Deliverer from Zion turns His fire on you.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Who are YOU then to try and claim those unbelieving Jews are doomed to destruction?!? You are NOT GOD. So you don't believe GOD has the Power to save them, and take away their sins, once their blindness He put upon them is removed by Him??

Who am I?

I’m someone who believes Jesus Christ is the only Name under heaven by which anyone can be saved — Jew or Gentile. (Acts 4:12)

And I believe Paul meant what he said when he declared:

“If they do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted in.” (Romans 11:23)

IF.
Not “when.”
Not “no matter what.”
If.

You quote verse 28–29 as if “the gifts and calling of God are without repentance” means they get a free pass into the Kingdom while still rejecting the King. That is a blasphemous distortion.

Paul just got done saying:
“They were broken off for unbelief… and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.” (Romans 11:20)

If you think God will reverse judgment without repentance — you’ve turned His mercy into lawlessness.

Now let’s address your twisting of:
“They are enemies for your sakes, but beloved for the fathers' sakes.” (v. 28)

This verse is not an eternal promise of salvation to the unbelieving. It’s a reminder that God used their rejection of Christ to extend mercy to the Gentiles, and He is still willing to graft them back in — but only through Christ.

And as for “beloved for the fathers’ sakes”?

Sure. God loved Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
That’s why He sent them their Messiah — and said:

“Whoever rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.” (Luke 10:16)
“If you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

You want to weaponize Paul’s lament to imply unbelieving Jews are guaranteed salvation outside of repentance?

You just gutted the Gospel.
That’s not “love.” That’s universalism wearing a tallit.

Let me be clear:

God absolutely has the power to save them —
But He also gave them the choice to reject Him.
And He will not override His own Word to appease your nationalistic doctrine.

If they continue in unbelief — they will remain cut off.
If they return to Christ — they will be grafted in.
But there is no third category.

There is no covenant apart from Christ.
There is no salvation by genetics.
And there is no such thing as elect enemies of the cross who get in by lineage.

So stop quoting Paul to defend what Paul was warning against.

“They are not all Israel who are of Israel… it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God.” (Romans 9:6–8)

That’s the Word.
Not Scofield. Not Zionism. Not Rabbinical fantasy.
And certainly not your made-up theology of salvation without the Savior.

You say: "God blinded them, so He must unblind them later no matter what."
Paul says: "They were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble." (Romans 11:20)

You say: "All Israel will be saved — even the unbelieving ones!"
Paul says: "Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel... only the children of the promise are counted as offspring."(Romans 9:6–8)

You say: "They’re still elect, even if they reject Christ — they’re beloved for the fathers’ sake!"
Paul says: "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake." (Romans 11:28)

You say: "They’re still God’s chosen, even in unbelief."
Paul says: "If they do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted in." (Romans 11:23)

You say: "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance — so they’re automatically saved!"
Paul says: "Without faith, it is impossible to please God." (Hebrews 11:6)
Jesus says: "Whoever rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me." (Luke 10:16)

You say: "Who are you to say they’re doomed?"
Jesus says: "If you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)

You say: "They’re still under the covenant!"
Jesus says: "This is the new covenant in My blood." (Luke 22:20)
Paul says: "By calling this covenant 'new,' He has made the first one obsolete." (Hebrews 8:13)

You say: "They’re natural Israel — that still counts!"
Paul says: "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

You say: "You're anti-Semitic for saying this!"
Paul says: "I wish I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people." (Romans 9:3)
He wasn’t hateful — he was heartbroken. And he still told the truth.


Conclusion:
There is no salvation outside of Christ.
There is no covenant apart from the cross.
There is no “elect” status for those who trample the Son of God.

If they continue in unbelief — they are cut off.
If they repent and believe — they are grafted back in.
But there is no third category.

So again — , I’m not anti-Semitic.
I’m quoting the Jewish Messiah and His Jewish apostles — while you quote emotional fantasy and Zionist propaganda.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

The charge of "false teaching" is serious, but throwing that label around without addressing a single Scripture point raised does not prove anything. If we are truly standing on Sola Scriptura, then every claim must be tested against the full counsel of God (Acts 20:27), not cherry-picked texts. Let’s go point by point, biblically.

Romans 11:32 clearly says God has “concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.” That is not a suggestion, that is a stated purpose of God. The word for "all" (Greek: pantas) is the same word used elsewhere for universal statements. Titus 2:11 confirms it, “The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.” This isn’t philosophical speculation, it’s Scripture.

As for John 6:44, yes, the drawing of the Father is necessary. But Jesus used the same Greek word helkō in John 12:32, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” If “draw” means an irresistible compulsion in chapter 6, it must mean the same in chapter 12. Yet clearly not all are saved, proving the drawing is real but resistible. That’s reinforced in Matthew 23:37, where Jesus says, “How often would I have gathered thy children together... and ye would not.” He wanted to gather them, they refused. That is Jesus explaining rejection, not a lack of election.

Regarding election, Ephesians 1:4 says we are chosen “in Him,” not chosen to be placed into Him, but chosen because we are in Him. Romans 8:29 gives the basis, “Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.” The Greek proginōskō means to know beforehand. God predestines on the basis of foreknown response, not by arbitrary decree apart from that. That’s not twisting, it’s reading the text in order.

Revelation 3:5 is ignored by many who push unconditional election. It says, “I will not blot out his name out of the book of life.” You cannot blot out what was never there. That verse alone refutes the idea of an unchangeable, eternally fixed list.

And 2 Peter 3:9 makes God’s desire plain, “The Lord is... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” The word for “willing” is boulomai, meaning intention or desire. This is not describing a fake offer or hidden will, it’s declaring what God genuinely wants. To reject that is to reject God’s own words about Himself.

Labeling all this as “false teaching” without answering a single verse is not how truth is determined. If you’re going to stand on Scripture, then respond to the Scripture, not with name-calling, but with rightly divided truth (2 Timothy 2:15). If you can’t, then it’s not my position that’s false, it’s your system that’s unbiblical.

The invitation of the Gospel is open. “Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17). That is the Word of God. Stand on it.

I made a brief charge of false teaching because scriptures that tell us of God's predetermination of his Elect,in his own words,are ignored and reworked in a manner intended to deny them.

 

[bdavidc]

I made a brief charge of false teaching because scriptures that tell us of God's predetermination of his Elect,in his own words,are ignored and reworked in a manner intended to deny them.

I do believe in the biblical truth that God has chosen His elect according to His sovereign will and foreknowledge. Ephesians 1:4–5 says, “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world... having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” Romans 8:29–30 also confirms, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called...” This is not random or unjust, it is God's mercy and grace in action. Jesus Himself said in John 6:37, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me...” Election is taught plainly in Scripture and reflects God's sovereign right to have mercy on whom He will (Romans 9:15–16).

This is a tough topic to talk about, and it's easy for people to misunderstand each other. I’m sorry if I misunderstood what you meant.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

I do believe in the biblical truth that God has chosen His elect according to His sovereign will and foreknowledge. Ephesians 1:4–5 says, “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world... having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” Romans 8:29–30 also confirms, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called...” This is not random or unjust, it is God's mercy and grace in action. Jesus Himself said in John 6:37, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me...” Election is taught plainly in Scripture and reflects God's sovereign right to have mercy on whom He will (Romans 9:15–16).

This is a tough topic to talk about, and it's easy for people to misunderstand each other. I’m sorry if I misunderstood what you meant.

Same here. Please forgive me.

God Bless.

 

[Wick Stick]

So it's not that any one part "falls apart" — it's that the slogan as a whole lacks the weight and urgency of the full Gospel Jesus actually preached.

It wasn't meant to be a slogan. Why was it taken that way? If I had said...

• Faith
• Justice
• Love
• Grace

...I'm pretty sure I would have gotten a different reaction. But those are precisely what those are. Why did putting them in modern English somehow make them out be some some kind of vacuous slogan?

He was challenging how that whole phrase, taken as a complete package, can become a feel-good summary that downplays the cost of following Jesus, sidesteps repentance,

This is addressed by "believe God"

skips spiritual warfare,

"Spiritual warfare" is a nebulous phrase that doesn't really mean anything because there's no consensus about its meaning. But if you mean the struggle to do what is right, then that's addressed by "do right."

and reduces the Gospel to "try hard and be nice."

Very much no. "Try hard" is incompatible with "believe God" - it's the antithesis. "Be nice" is incompatible with "do right" - to do right will often require you to be un-nice.

“God will take care of the rest” can become a kind of spiritual autopilot slogan that softens the edge of the very real warnings Jesus and the apostles gave about false teachers, deception, persecution, and judgment.

You can't take grace out of the Bible. Then everything really does fall apart.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

You can't take grace out of the Bible. Then everything really does fall apart.

The year 2098 - “All you need is a seashell in your pocket and God will take care of the rest!”

^ That’s exactly where this squishy, plastic “grace-only” mindset leads over the next century—
straight to a New Age-flavored, judgment-free, fake gospel that strips the cross of its cost and the kingdom of its holiness. As long as you've got a sea shell in your pocket, you're good. "Don't worry, God will take care of the rest."

Grace without truth is spiritual fentanyl — it feels peaceful while it kills your discernment.

Jesus didn’t die so we could coast into heaven with a lucky charm in our pocket.
He died to call us out of darkness, arm us with truth, and prepare us to stand in the fire.

 

[Wick Stick]

The year 2098 - “All you need is a seashell in your pocket and God will take care of the rest!”

That's silly. Intentionally so, and I take your meaning, but that is quite a jump.

^ That’s exactly where this squishy, plastic “grace-only” mindset leads over the next century—

straight to a New Age-flavored, judgment-free, fake gospel that strips the cross of its cost and the kingdom of its holiness. As long as you've got a sea shell in your pocket, you're good. "Don't worry, God will take care of the rest."

Grace without truth is spiritual fentanyl — it feels peaceful while it kills your discernment.

This wasn't ever "grace-only." Faith, justice, and love were all framed as more important elements. I did not omit these. (It appears you may have, welp)

Jesus didn’t die so we could coast into heaven with a lucky charm in our pocket.
He died to call us out of darkness, arm us with truth, and prepare us to stand in the fire.

Do you always frame everything in extremes? Extreme positions are rarely the whole truth. Most people will not be martyrs. Few will 'stand in the fire.'