Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are asserting that the 1000 year kingdom is what they call "the eternal state"?

Let's be clear here. I'm an Amillennialist, so I don't view the thousand years the way you do. I believe that the figurative thousand years began after Jesus was resurrected which is when scripture says He began to reign over all things in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-23). So, in my view we are in the kingdom of God, which Jesus current reigns over at the right hand of the Father, right now in a spiritual sense.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

I'm saying that the kingdom of God and kingdom of his dear Son are the same kingdom and we're spiritually in that kingdom now with Jesus, who is God, as our King. It's not as if we are in two different kingdoms right now.

So, in my view, even though we are in the kingdom of God now with Jesus reigning over it at the right hand of the Father, we will inherit the kingdom of God in its fullness when Jesus returns in the sense of inheriting it with immortal bodies, which we obviously do not have yet. And the kingdom will no longer exist in a place where the kingdom of Satan also exists and it will be free of sin and death at that point.

Since Matthew 25:31-46 talks about believers inheriting "eternal life" in "the kingdom prepared since the foundation of the world", that is when I believe that believers will inherit the kingdom of God with immortal bodies because inheriting the kingdom of God with immortal bodies implies that we inherit eternal life (eternal bodily life with immortal bodies) in the kingdom of God at that time. So, I see a direct connection between 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and Matthew 25:31-46 (as it relates to the sheep/righteous).

 

[marks]

Let's be clear here. I'm an Amillennialist, so I don't view the thousand years the way you do. I believe that the figurative thousand years began after Jesus was resurrected which is when scripture says He began to reign over all things in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-23). So, in my view we are in the kingdom of God, which Jesus current reigns over at the right hand of the Father, right now in a spiritual sense.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

I'm saying that the kingdom of God and kingdom of his dear Son are the same kingdom and we're spiritually in that kingdom now with Jesus, who is God, as our King. It's not as if we are in two different kingdoms right now.

So, in my view, even though we are in the kingdom of God now with Jesus reigning over it at the right hand of the Father, we will inherit the kingdom of God in its fullness when Jesus returns in the sense of inheriting it with immortal bodies, which we obviously do not have yet. And the kingdom will no longer exist in a place where the kingdom of Satan also exists and it will be free of sin and death at that point.

So to be clear,

Revelation 20:1-10 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This passage above regards our current life in Christ, and that we will inherit an eternal kingdom in the time to come, that's correct?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Two groups of people are gathered when Jesus comes, the Chosen, and the Nations. Who are the Chosen, and who are the Nations? The nations are divided into two groups, the sheep, and the goats.

What? No, it only talks about two groups. The sheep and the goats who are separated to Christ's right hand and left hand. There is no third group.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

The nations simply refer to all the people of all nationalities that are gathered before Him. Those people are all either sheep or goats. The sheep are then places on His right and the goats on His left.

Who are the chosen, the sheep, and the goats?

Again, there are only two groups talked about in that passsage: the sheep and the goats. I believe the sheep represent those who belong to Christ, which lines up with John 10. The goats are everyone who do not belong to Christ. Jesus said "He who is not with me is against me". So, He thought of all people as being in two groups. The sheep represent those who are with Jesus and the goats represent those who are against Jesus.

Another way to put it is that the sheep are all of those whose names are written in the book of life while the goats are all of those whose names are not written in the book of life.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I ask because if we're going to talk about this passage, I'd like to check your understanding against what the prophecy says.

I appreciate your desire to have clarify that before we talk about the passage any further. That's always a good thing because, otherwise, there tends to be a lot of strawman arguments that are made because of people not understanding what anyone is actually saying.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So to be clear,

Revelation 20:1-10 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This passage above regards our current life in Christ, and that we will inherit an eternal kingdom in the time to come, that's correct?

Much love!

Well, the kingdom described there is eternal and not temporal, but we will inherit it with immortal bodies in the future. It's not like they are different kingdoms. There's only one kingdom of God and Jesus currently reigns over it. He will deliver it to the Father at "the end" (end of the age) when He comes, in my opinion (1 Corinthians 15:22-24, Matthew 13:40-43).

For me, the way to interpret Revelation 20 is to first look at more clear, straightforward passages and then interpet Revelation 20 accordingly. Passages like the following make it quite clear that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection.

Matthew 28:18 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

 

[marks]

What? No, it only talks about two groups. The sheep and the goats who are separated to Christ's right hand and left hand. There is no third group.

Let's review.

After Jesus appears, but before He takes His throne,

Matthew 24:31 KJV
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After Jesus takes His throne,

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

And when they are gathered,

Matthew 25:33 KJV
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Two groups are gathered, the Chosen before Jesus takes His throne, and the Nations, after Jesus takes His throne. The nations Jesus will divide into two groups, the sheep and the goats.

So you have the Chosen, and the sheep, and the goats. Three groups. If you cannot identify these groups correctly, I don't believe you've understood the prophecy.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Well, the kingdom described there is eternal and not temporal, but we will inherit it with immortal bodies in the future. It's not like they are different kingdoms. There's only one kingdom of God and Jesus currently reigns over it. He will deliver it to the Father at "the end" (end of the age) when He comes, in my opinion (1 Corinthians 15:22-24, Matthew 13:40-43).

For me, the way to interpret Revelation 20 is to first look at more clear, straightforward passages and then interpet Revelation 20 accordingly. Passages like the following make it quite clear that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection.

Matthew 28:18 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Is that a "Yes"? Or "No"? You appear to understand the reason why I ask.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's review.

Yes, let's.

After Jesus appears, but before He takes His throne,

With you so far. Just making a little joke there. Might as well agree while I can since it probably won't last...

Matthew 24:31 KJV
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After Jesus takes His throne,

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

And when they are gathered,

Matthew 25:33 KJV
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Two groups are gathered, the Chosen before Jesus takes His throne, and the Nations, after Jesus takes His throne. The nations Jesus will divide into two groups, the sheep and the goats.

I'm not following you. It only talks about "all nations" being gathered before Him and it talks about them being separated into the sheep and the goats. Where are you seeing a reference to "the Chosen" there?

So you have the Chosen, and the sheep, and the goats.

Again, where do "the Chosen" come from? Where do you see them being referenced separately from the sheep and goats?

Three groups. If you cannot identify these groups correctly, I don't believe you've understood the prophecy.

And I would say there are two groups and if you can't recognize that then I don't believe you've understood the prophecy. So, please, explain clearly where you are seeing a third group that you're calling "the Chosen" being referenced.

 

[marks]

For me, the way to interpret Revelation 20 is to first look at more clear, straightforward passages and then interpet Revelation 20 accordingly.

I'm curious, What part or parts of this passage do you consider to be ambiguous or not otherwise clear? To me, this passage seems very clearly stated. What parts do you think are not so?

Revelation 20:1-10 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is that a "Yes"? Or "No"? You appear to understand the reason why I ask.

Much love!

Since your question doesn't apply to how I understand things, I could not just answer "Yes" or "No". If you ask questions according to how I understand things, then I can answer "Yes" or "No". Otherwise, I have to explain how I see it, which differs from how you described it. I don't believe in any temporal kingdom like you do, so asking me a question that seems to imply that the kingdom we're in now is not eternal is not a valid question to ask me.

 

[marks]

I'm not following you. It only talks about "all nations" being gathered before Him and it talks about them being separated into the sheep and the goats. Where are you seeing a reference to "the Chosen" there?

Matthew 24:31 KJV
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Since your question doesn't apply to how I understand things, I could not just answer "Yes" or "No". If you ask questions according to how I understand things, then I can answer "Yes" or "No". Otherwise, I have to explain how I see it, which differs from how you described it. I don't believe in any temporal kingdom like you do, so asking me a question that seems to imply that the kingdom we're in now is not eternal is not a valid question to ask me.

Now were going in circles because you won't declare yourself.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Let's be clear here. I'm an Amillennialist, so I don't view the thousand years the way you do. I believe that the figurative thousand years began after Jesus was resurrected which is when scripture says He began to reign over all things in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-23). So, in my view we are in the kingdom of God, which Jesus current reigns over at the right hand of the Father, right now in a spiritual sense.

Revelation 20:1-10 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

That's the fun thing about a written forum, our words are preserved.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24:31 KJV
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

Much love!

His elect/chosen are the sheep.

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Whose sins does Christ's blood cover? All of those who belong to Him. So, all of those who belong to Him are His sheep.

All of those who belong to Him are chosen/elect as well. So, there is no difference between His sheep and the elect/chosen.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now were going in circles because you won't declare yourself.

Much love!

What didn't you understand about what I said? Why should I have to agree with your understanding of Revelation 20, in terms of believing that it refers to a temporal rather than an eternal kingdom, in order to answer a question you ask about it?

To be clear, I believe Revelation 20 talks about the kingdom of Christ/God that we're in spiritually now and then when Revelation 20:11-15 is fulfilled we then will inherit eternal bodily life with immortal bodies in the kingdom prepared for us since the creation of the world which will be in the eternal new heavens and new earth.

 

[marks]

To be clear, I believe Revelation 20 talks about the kingdom of Christ/God that we're in spiritually now and then when Revelation 20:11-15 is fulfilled we then will inherit eternal bodily life with immortal bodies in the kingdom prepared for us since the creation of the world which will be in the eternal new heavens and new earth.

Thank you, this is more what I was hoping for, a direct answer.

Please tell me, what is the meaning of this passage?

Revelation 20:4 KJV
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Who are these that reign with Christ, and what is their dominion?

Much love!

 

[marks]

His elect/chosen are the sheep.

That is not a logical nor reasonable option, however.

The Chosen are gathered before Jesus takes His throne, while the sheep are neither gathered nor identified until after Jesus takes His throne.

The sheep and goats are identified according to whether or not they cared for the needs of "Jesus' brothers". Who are they?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm curious, What part or parts of this passage do you consider to be ambiguous or not otherwise clear? To me, this passage seems very clearly stated.

Do you see the book of Revelation as a book that is full of clear, straightforward passages? A book that undeniably contains a lot of symbolism?

If the Revelation 20 passage is so clear, then I assume you would have no trouble telling me who or what the beast is exactly and what its image is and what the mark of the beast is that those who reign with Christ do not receive?

If the passage is so clear to you, then why do you not see Revelation 20:6 as being a current reality, when other passages like Revelation 1:5-6 indicate that Jesus was already reigning at the time the book was written because it says "Jesus is...the prince of the kings of the earth" and that His people were already made priests of God and of Christ before the book was written because it says Jesus "has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is not a logical nor reasonable option, however.

Yes, it most certainly is. What is the difference between the sheep and the elect when His sheep and the elect are described as referring to the same people in scripture?

The Chosen are gathered before Jesus takes His throne, while the sheep are neither gathered nor identified until after Jesus takes His throne.

That's a false understanding of the passage. Nowhere does it say that the sheep are not identified when they are before His throne. They are just not yet placed on His right hand. Likewise, it doesn't say that the goats are not identified, it just says they are not yet placed on His left hand. Think about it. Do you really think that Jesus doesn't know who are the sheep and who are the goats before they are placed on His right and His left?

If you think there is a third group besides the sheep and the goats, then why are they not mentioned in that passage?

The sheep and goats are identified according to whether or not they cared for the needs of "Jesus' brothers". Who are they?

Say it right and don't try to change the text.

Matthew 25:40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’....45 He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

It says "the least of these" His brothers, not just His brothers. According to Jesus Himself, all who belong to Him and obey God are His brothers, so "the least of these" are among the sheep which are those who belong to Him (John 10:15-16).

Matthew 12:48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

 

[marks]

Do you see the book of Revelation as a book that is full of clear, straightforward passages? A book that undeniably contains a lot of symbolism?

If the Revelation 20 passage is so clear, then I assume you would have no trouble telling me who or what the beast is exactly and what its image is and what the mark of the beast is that those who reign with Christ do not receive?

If the passage is so clear to you, then why do you not see Revelation 20:6 as being a current reality, when other passages like Revelation 1:5-6 indicate that Jesus was already reigning at the time the book was written because it says "Jesus is...the prince of the kings of the earth" and that His people were already made priests of God and of Christ before the book was written because it says Jesus "has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father"?

So that's a no? Can't explain it?

What about this part:

Revelation 20:7-9 KJV
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Can you tell me what this part means?

Much love!

 

[marks]

If you think there is a third group besides the sheep and the goats, then why are they not mentioned in that passage?

Are you remembering that this prophecy is not just this chapter? You need to start at the beginning, and don't stop until you reach the end.

Much love!