The devil's lie in Christian music

[MatthewG]

I don't believe abortion is murder.

That is just it. Now it if comes to a baby out the womb and breathing and living fully function and you slam it's head against the wall, that would be murder.

Aside from that sometimes it been said a person is better of dying in the womb than seeing the atrocities of life in the bible some where.


Ecc 4:3 But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun.


There many people who hang on to "Humanitarism" or whatever, I don't care much about that.

 

[MatthewG]

I don't believe abortion is murder.

That is just it. Now it if comes to a baby out the womb and breathing and living fully function and you slam it's head against the wall, that would be murder.

Aside from that sometimes it been said a person is better of dying in the womb than seeing the atrocities of life in the bible some where.


Ecc 4:3 But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun.


There many people who hang on to "Humanitarism" or whatever, I don't care much about that.

How do you deal with Wars? How can you justify them? What about what Israel would slaughter whole villages including the children and tehy were not even in the womb.

 

[Behold]

How is “womb” defined below?
GBut when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb,

Your verse is showing us that God sees the person, in the womb..... as God's Foreknowledge.
= God is establishing when LIFE, as person, has begun..
So, if Paul had been murdered in the womb (aborted) then this is (also) the "shedding of innocent blood" and God will judge this.....the Scripture teaches..

What “mothers womb” did Paul speak of

His mothers.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So, if Paul had been murdered in the womb (aborted) then this is (also) the "shedding of innocent blood" and God will judge this.....the Scripture teaches..

Acts 22:19-20 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee: [20] And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

We can sugar coat it every way we like, spin it however we want. Galatians 2:19-20 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. [20] I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, I'm quite aware of the topic of the thread. But within the discussion of the thread's main topic other sub-topics have been broached. So, I just wanted to be clear on which topic you meant. Why, the sarcasm?

I haven't been contending in this thread over a particular sort of music that's godly but over what constitutes "worship music" - in particular whether or not modern "worship songs" actually worship God. On this question, God's word is very helpful, offering very clear criteria by which to assess if modern "worship songs" are what they claim to be. Is this, though, what you're wanting to discuss? It seems to me you've shifted from this question to a broader one about music generally.

Yes, I'm quite aware of the topic of the thread. But within the discussion of the thread's main topic other sub-topics have been broached. So, I just wanted to be clear on which topic you meant. Why, the sarcasm?

I haven't been contending in this thread over a particular sort of music that's godly but over what constitutes "worship music" - in particular whether or not modern "worship songs" actually worship God. On this question, God's word is very helpful, offering very clear criteria by which to assess if modern "worship songs" are what they claim to be. Is this, though, what you're wanting to discuss? It seems to me you've shifted from this question to a broader one about music generally.

I have no problem with you having an opinion. But it is one of many.
Now if you have a scripture that directly addresses this and I sure we would like to hear it.

 

[Kokyu]

You are making a false equivalence, and im not.

Actually, (I don't mean to be rude, here) but you're the one guilty of false equivalence. You've made John's prayer for Gaius equivalent to Nichole's "worship song" which, as I've pointed out, it isn't. Strangely, you even acknowledge the difference:

See.........John stated a prayer for someone, and Katy's song, is a prayer as lyrics, in a song.. stated to everyone who hears the song.

See? John's written prayer, directed at a single individual, not made in worship of God, is not the same as Nichole's musical performance of a generic prayer, made, ostensibly, as part of worship of God. Why aren't these significant differences sufficient to create a false equivalency, in your view? I assume that, because they both are prayers, you believe the other differences cease to matter. Is this so?

In both cases, we are not looking at a Theology Lesson., we are looking at a heartfelt prayer sent to the hearer.

I understand this, but this one parallel doesn't just negate the other stark differences you seem determined to ignore.

 

[Behold]

Acts 22:19-20 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee: [20] And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

How is your verse related to Abortion?

 

[Kokyu]

I have no problem with you having an opinion. But it is one of many.
Now if you have a scripture that directly addresses this and I sure we would like to hear it.

There are many such verses. Do you not know them?

John 4:23-24
23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

There are two clear stipulations concerning worship of God one can draw from this passage:

1.) Right worship of God must be done "in spirit."

God is a Spirit, and worship of Him must come from the spiritual part of who we are, which is to say from the Holy Spirit who imparts to us in himself our spiritual life (Ro. 8:9-13; Tit. 3:5-7; 1 Jn. 4:13; 1 Cor. 6:19-20). Out of his life in us, and under his control, we are to worship God; and only if we are is our worship actually proper worship of God.

One of the chief characteristics of spiritual worship will be the absence of fleshliness. The flesh and the spirit/Spirit are at odds with one another, the flesh entirely unable to please God, in fact (Ga. 5:17; Ro. 7:18; 8:7-8). Fleshliness is, of course, always marked by sensuality, by the stimulation of one's physical senses, and so, to the degree that worship of God is sensual (which is to say, fleshly), to the same degree that worship ceases to be spiritual.

--

Philippians 3:3
3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,


2.) Right worship of God must be done "in truth."

Nothing is more unlike God, more opposed to Him, than untruth, lies, error, deceptions, or half-truths (Jn. 8:44; 16:13; 1 Jn. 1:8; 2:21, etc.). Worship of God, then, that operates in these things at all is absolutely not right worship, however well-intended or sincere it might otherwise be. (See also Mk. 7:7)

--

Matthew 4:10
10 Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only."

3.) Here, Jesus excluded all other "gods" from the life of those who would worship God properly. God only is to be worshipped and if one who proposes to worship God has other "gods" in their life - particularly the "god" of Self, which most often encroaches directly upon worship of God - they cannot offer worship to God properly.

--

Romans 12:1
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

4.) Songs of worship are to arise from lives of worship. It is from one whose life is a living sacrifice to God, yielded to Him all the time, that truly spiritual worship in song arises. In fact, worship of God is not done primarily in song on a Sunday morning, but in the mundane details of everyday living, the Person of Christ lifted up and manifested in all that a believer does (Ro. 8:29; 2 Co. 4:7-11). From such a person, proper, truly God-pleasing, worship in song may come. From those who "worship" God from lives lived in service to themselves, their worship of God in song on Sunday morning is a profoundly false and corrupt thing that is highly offensive to God. (Tit. 1:16; Matt. 15:7-9; Mal. 1, etc.)

I could go on, providing more Scripture pertaining to right worship of God, but I'll stop here and not be guilty of "Throwing the Elephant." At the very least, I think I've shown that proper worship of God is not a matter of personal preference and opinion but is described to us clearly and comprehensively in God's word.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

How is your verse related to Abortion?

You brought up

our verse is showing us that God sees the person, in the womb..... as God's Foreknowledge.
= God is establishing when LIFE, as person, has begun..
So, if Paul had been murdered in the womb (aborted) then this is (also) the "shedding of innocent blood" and God will judge this.....the Scripture teaches..

You brought Paul up and I pointed out the shedding of Stephens blood. Which would you say Stephens blood shed was the shedding of innocent blood? How does it relate to abortion? You brought up if Paul had been murdered in the womb …which you only focus is on in Saul’s literal mothers womb.

Paul spoke of when the time came that God separated him from his mothers womb. If we take that only to mean during the natural birth then why was it years—years—after his conversation in the flesh, after when Paul spoke of the time of his separation from “the womb of his mother”? It wasn’t a nine months incubation period and then what we call being removed out from our mothers womb. We neglect:
Galatians 4:24-31 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which genders to bondage, which is Agar. [25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. [26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. [27] For it is written, Rejoice, you barren that bear not; break forth and cry, thou that travail not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which has an husband. [28] Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. [29] But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. [30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. [31] So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

You said in regards to which “mothers womb” was Paul separated from? You said

His mothers.

Why can’t it be Paul was separated from being called the children of an adulterous woman, separated from the bondwoman? That mothers womb. We forget when the law came sin working in Saul, slew him. And he died. So I think it does go with your statement of what if Paul had been murdered in the womb? Sin did murder him in the womb, and he died. Yet —speaking of the resurrection of the dead, Paul was made alive unto God …remember “it is no longer I but Christ who lives in me”?

 

[Behold]

Songs of worship are to arise from lives of worship.

Post that Bible verse....that supports your posted opinion @Kokyu ..

So, The reality is..... ART comes from God, as He is the Original Cosmic Artist, and because man is "created in God's image"... is why Man has this innate desire to create something.

God paints the Colors of Life, on the Canvas of His created universe, = CONSTANTLY.

Man paints a beautiful valley on a canvas using paint, and God created one all over this world, as a literal reality.
Man paints a landscape using paint, and God created the Flowers, the Colors, and the Life in them that brings them to life, every Spring Time,,,, = that inspires the Artist to paint that landscape.

So, Songs, that come from God, flow from God through the born again Artist.. who is just the made righteous vessel.
Songs that come from God, are a gift, and all good gifts come from heaven above.

 

[Behold]

You brought up

Yes, i brought up the definition of Abortion and a verse that teaches that killing the innocent in the womb should not be a "woman's right. to choose".

You brought Paul up and I pointed out the shedding of Stephens blood. Which would you say Stephens blood shed was the shedding of innocent blood?

I would say that Jesus's Blood is the innocent Blood that redeemed St. Steven from His Sin.

 

[Grailhunter]

There are many such verses. Do you not know them?

John 4:23-24
23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

There are two clear stipulations concerning worship of God one can draw from this passage:

1.) Right worship of God must be done "in spirit."

God is a Spirit, and worship of Him must come from the spiritual part of who we are, which is to say from the Holy Spirit who imparts to us in himself our spiritual life (Ro. 8:9-13; Tit. 3:5-7; 1 Jn. 4:13; 1 Cor. 6:19-20). Out of his life in us, and under his control, we are to worship God; and only if we are is our worship actually proper worship of God.

One of the chief characteristics of spiritual worship will be the absence of fleshliness. The flesh and the spirit/Spirit are at odds with one another, the flesh entirely unable to please God, in fact (Ga. 5:17; Ro. 7:18; 8:7-8). Fleshliness is, of course, always marked by sensuality, by the stimulation of one's physical senses, and so, to the degree that worship of God is sensual (which is to say, fleshly), to the same degree that worship ceases to be spiritual.

--

Philippians 3:3
3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,


2.) Right worship of God must be done "in truth."

Nothing is more unlike God, more opposed to Him, than untruth, lies, error, deceptions, or half-truths (Jn. 8:44; 16:13; 1 Jn. 1:8; 2:21, etc.). Worship of God, then, that operates in these things at all is absolutely not right worship, however well-intended or sincere it might otherwise be. (See also Mk. 7:7)

--

Matthew 4:10
10 Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only."

3.) Here, Jesus excluded all other "gods" from the life of those who would worship God properly. God only is to be worshipped and if one who proposes to worship God has other "gods" in their life - particularly the "god" of Self, which most often encroaches directly upon worship of God - they cannot offer worship to God properly.

--

Romans 12:1
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

4.) Songs of worship are to arise from lives of worship. It is from one whose life is a living sacrifice to God, yielded to Him all the time, that truly spiritual worship in song arises. In fact, worship of God is not done primarily in song on a Sunday morning, but in the mundane details of everyday living, the Person of Christ lifted up and manifested in all that a believer does (Ro. 8:29; 2 Co. 4:7-11). From such a person, proper, truly God-pleasing, worship in song may come. From those who "worship" God from lives lived in service to themselves, their worship of God in song on Sunday morning is a profoundly false and corrupt thing that is highly offensive to God. (Tit. 1:16; Matt. 15:7-9; Mal. 1, etc.)

I could go on, providing more Scripture pertaining to right worship of God, but I'll stop here and not be guilty of "Throwing the Elephant." At the very least, I think I've shown that proper worship of God is not a matter of personal preference and opinion but is described to us clearly and comprehensively in God's word.

Talking about honest faith and worship....
I agree
Got anything specific.

 

[Dash RipRock]

God never said that

Those that don't know God's Word of course wouldn't know.

Abortion is murder

Yes it is.

@Dash RipRock, I dont think so.

I go by what God says in His Word, not what others "think".

Not sorry.

I don't look at Abortion as murder.

God does and those that support a woman's right to murder their child will get the same damnation as murderers.

The thing to do here is to ask the Lord for forgiveness for supporting sinful behavior such as murder and then stop supporting it as to be forgiven and not have that sin on record.

It's pretty up in the air between not and is.

That's what the devil continually tells people in his quest to deceive people in to supporting and engaging in sinful behavior

The strong ought to support the weak?

And the weak should quit being weak!

Ephesians 6:10 - Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

1 Corinthians 16:13 - Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

These are not a suggestions. The problem with many Christians is they are sissies!
Too many Christian men have been feminized by false doctrine and go by their feelings and emotions like little girls

That needs to stop, like when God told Job to be a man!

Job 38:3 - Gird up now thy loins like a man

 

[MatthewG]

@Dash RipRock, if a person does know how to love God and love others by abiding in Christ. They don't need the bible anymore. If they are able to do so. I'm not saying the bible is useless, but I digress. Whether or not you agree or not, doesn't really matter. To me anyway. You are totally responsible for your own life.

 

[Grailhunter]

Those that don't know God's Word of course wouldn't know.

Are you saying you are God's Word or are you going to show us.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes, i brought up the definition of Abortion and a verse that teaches that killing the innocent in the womb should not be a "woman's right. to choose".

you are missing the point I’m trying to share. Another perspective on abortion of Christ being formed in others. How if we steal, lie, cheat, deny, murder, false accuse and tear down and destroy one for whom Christ died…we have also destroyed a life being formed, growing up in Him, reconciled unto God. How many times does the word say “little children” regarding grown men who still need milk not ready for meat? “Little children” “Little Children” “babes in Christ”…<see that you don’t becoming guilty of aborting the children of God.

 

[Behold]

How if we steal, lie, cheat, deny, murder, false accuse and tear down and destroy one for whom Christ died…we have also destroyed a life being formed, growing up in Him,

So, if someone is on this Forum, teaching a false gospel, that will prevent an unbeliever from trusting in Christ and becoming a Christian.......is this one "tearing down the one for whom Christ died"....or is it "sending them to Hell".

A.) Its both

So should this be allowed on a "chrisitan" forum? @VictoryinJesus

 

[Kokyu]

Post that Bible verse....that supports your posted opinion @Kokyu ..

Please read carefully what I already wrote. What do you think Romans 12:1 is saying about the matter of worship? Is Paul enjoining us to be "living sacrifices" only on Sunday morning? Why does he say that being such a sacrifice is worship?

So, The reality is..... ART comes from God, as He is the Original Cosmic Artist, and because man is "created in God's image"... is why Man has this innate desire to create something.

Well, I think you'd be closer to the mark to say that the artistic impulse is from God. As I'm sure you're aware, not all art arising from this impulse is of God. Much of it is deeply vile and demonic, actually, reflecting nothing of the imago dei.

God paints the Colors of Life, on the Canvas of His created universe, = CONSTANTLY.

I suppose... I'm not sure, exactly, what you mean here...

Man paints a beautiful valley on a canvas using paint, and God created one all over this world, as a literal reality.
Man paints a landscape using paint, and God created the Flowers, the Colors, and the Life in them that brings them to life, every Spring Time,,,, = that inspires the Artist to paint that landscape.

Uh huh. And Man has painted warped and obscene things, too. Which, of course, have nothing to do with God. The mere act of creating art, then, is not necessarily "of God," right?

So, Songs, that come from God, flow from God through the born again Artist.. who is just the made righteous vessel.
Songs that come from God, are a gift, and all good gifts come from heaven above.

Not all songs a born-again artist may produce are, because s/he is born-again, therefore necessarily "from God." Born-again people may be carnal and divisive, guilty of gross sexual sin (1 Cor. 3,5, 6, 11); they may be trying, foolishly, to be perfected by their fleshly effort (Ga. 3:3); they may be like the born-again people in the church at Sardis or Laodicea, blind, poor, wretched and naked spiritually, appearing to have spiritual life while being actually near death (Rev. 3). Praise songs coming from such as these will not be "gifts from God," but highly offensive to Him, and inevitably reflecting the sinful fleshliness of those who write them in ways both subtle and overt, twisting God's truth, fixing upon the creature rather than the Creator and exaggerating the sensual.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So, if someone is on this Forum, teaching a false gospel, that will prevent an unbeliever from trusting in Christ and becoming a Christian.......is this one "tearing down the one for whom Christ died"....or is it "sending them to Hell".

A.) Its both

So should this be allowed on a "chrisitan" forum? @VictoryinJesus

All this makes my head spin. I’m saying be careful when we say we don’t murder. It’s easy to boast and strut around saying how well we know murder is wrong. But then we turn around and bite and devour and consume one another. Brothers even! We acknowledge abortion is wrong but I’m warning before we get so high on our postering of how righteous we are, it might come around to bite us in the rear, if while professing to be wise on abortion…we murder …for example when Paul spoke to those saying “little children” be careful of the wolves.

 

[Kokyu]

Talking about honest faith and worship....
I agree
Got anything specific.

??? If this is the limit of your response to what I wrote, I have nothing more to write to you. I'm not wasting time and effort on discussions that garner such flip and dismissive replies.