Reader Poll - Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

[Aunty Jane]

James is talking about good works that show a believer's faith. He believes that real faith is not just a mental agreement, but one that is shown through real actions.

Of course real faith is not just mental agreement or even acknowledgment….it requires action….and the main focus of that action from both Jesus and the apostles, was centered on the preaching work.
it was Jesus‘ last instruction to his disciples before he left. (Matt 28:19-20)

These works don't aim to gain salvation; instead, they are the natural outcome of a genuine faith. He points out that if someone says they have faith but doesn't show it through their actions, their faith is basically ineffective or dead.

If faith without works is dead, then we cannot have salvation without them. The actions were proof of the faith.
The gifts of the spirit were not works, but demonstrations of God’s power working through human agencies…..the preaching was a work…a labor of love for God, for his Christ and for one’s fellowman.
Without God’s spirit, the preaching work would not be done. Jesus said he would be “with” his disciples in order for them to carry it out…..it is his work assignment for them.

Jesus didn’t tell us the work would be easy…he said that his disciples would be a hated “few” (John 15:18-21; Matt 7:13-14) and that the road to life was a difficult one….”cramped” because of those difficulties….and with a narrow gate that most people never see as an “exit” from the path they are already travelling.

There's more to obeying the Master than witnessing. You seem to focus on one aspect and that is the preaching work, because it seems it's the only thing you know, but your message is constantly changing, if you truly were obeying the Master, you would do as he taught, you would do as His apostles taught, that is accept His invitation to "run for the prize of the high calling." (Phil 3:14)

Yet witnessing was his prime activity. His sermons were delivered to audiences numbering into their thousands….Jesus was a teacher whose subject matter introduced his audience to the truth that leads to eternal life. We need to focus on what Christ focused on….not make up our own rules because what he asked was too difficult. I only hear excuses for not doing what Christ commanded. There are no excuses. (Matt 24:14)
Our message has remained the same from the beginning….which comes from knowing what the kingdom is and what is “good news” about it….what it will do for mankind, and the planet that was so lovingly prepared for us…..we are to preach it to “the end”.

Since God never intended for humans to go to heaven, the earth was meant to be our permanent home.
The “upward call” was for the elect who will form a governing body in heaven, to rule all redeemed mankind.…..ruling from heaven to restore what was lost on earth.

 

[Berean]

Since God never intended for humans to go to heaven, the earth was meant to be our permanent home.

Well, we agree on that.

The “upward call” was for the elect who will form a governing body in heaven, to rule all redeemed mankind.…..ruling from heaven to restore what was lost on earth.

And we agree on that ... however you'd be hard pressed to prove to me from scripture that Jesus or His Apostles were preaching anything but the "upward call."

Jane, there is only ONE call in the scriptures, that is to be part of the church, and until that number is filled, there will be no other call. Living on earth for ever is not a call, it's the default. It's where mankind was meant to live.

Now, if living on earth is what YOU want, then that's fine, you're essentially telling God, "thanks, but no thanks, I wanna live on earth not heaven." But don't fool yourself into thinking you've been invited to live on the earth, because that invitation to the world hasn't been extended yet. It will come when the "fullness of the gentiles comes in," when the elect class is complete, AFTER the millennial reign.

The purpose of the preaching work is not to gather a great crowd of believers who will be saved from armageddon, it is to find the last remaining members of the Body of Christ, the feet members, or as I like to call them at this juncture, the toes.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Well, we agree on that.

Show me where God’s first purpose for this earth and humankind upon it, ever changed?

And we agree on that ... however you'd be hard pressed to prove to me from scripture that Jesus or His Apostles were preaching anything but the "upward call."

Since those chosen for a role in heaven are called ”firstfruits to God and to the Lamb” it makes sense that they were called “first”. So, those “called” in the first century would have been part of the elect. The Christian Scriptures were written by the elect for the elect…and when their numbers were filled, which did not happen in the first century, due to the foretold apostasy where the Christian faith would be overtaken by a satanically inspired counterfeit, God eventually gathered his “other sheep” at the time of Christ’s return.

Many were perplexed during this early 19th century period, because many had no “upward call” to heaven. It was then that they were identified and understood their place in God’s arrangement. These would become the subjects of that heavenly kingdom, joined later in the resurrection by millions more….and these would remain on earth. Without that “upward call” there is no desire to go to heaven. So there is no jealousy on their part…we of the earthly class are happy to have the best government that humans have ever had on this earth, which will return to the Edenic state it was meant to be. (Isa 55:11)

Jane, there is only ONE call in the scriptures, that is to be part of the church, and until that number is filled, there will be no other call. Living on earth for ever is not a call, it's the default. It's where mankind was meant to live.

Exactly….only the elect will go to heaven…the rest of us are content to stay where we are and be subjects of the heavenly kingdom, to have God’s will “done on earth as it is in heaven”….isn’t this what Jesus told us to pray for? What is the Kingdom for? How does it “come”.

Now, if living on earth is what YOU want, then that's fine, you're essentially telling God, "thanks, but no thanks, I wanna live on earth not heaven." But don't fool yourself into thinking you've been invited to live on the earth, because that invitation to the world hasn't been extended yet. It will come when the "fullness of the gentiles comes in," when the elect class is complete, AFTER the millennial reign.

And what makes you think that? Living on earth is as you said, “the default” so why is it that those who have not received the heavenly calling want to live in heaven when here on earth is where God put us in the first place? Why did he create us here on earth if he was going to take people to heaven? It is a false expectation.

The purpose of the preaching work is not to gather a great crowd of believers who will be saved from armageddon, it is to find the last remaining members of the Body of Christ, the feet members, or as I like to call them at this juncture, the toes.

Jesus has already done that….at this late stage it is safe to assume that the number of spiritual Israel are already sealed….he is about to make his appearance as judge of us all….and the kingdom is already in operation ready to take over earth’s rulership….as soon as he gives the signal…..are you ready?

Those described in Rev 7 identify the number sealed as 144,000….and after that he sees a ‘great crowd‘ that no man could number and these are taken from all the nations on earth. These owe their salvation to God and to the Lamb. When John asked the angel to identify this great crowd, whose numbers are opposite to the finite number of the elect…he tells John that these “come out of the great tribulation”….which occurs on earth, and these are the survivors. The fall of Jerusalem took place in 70 CE, and John received his Revelation at the end of the first century……he is taken in vision to “the Lord’s day“ to see what is to take place in the future…..this “great tribulation” takes place as part of Christ’s return. Keep up….

If the “toes” are an allusion to the image of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, then I am afraid you are way off in your understanding…..stuck back in the last century with no new light…..we have come a long way since Russell….he is ruling in heaven as we speak, and I can hear him telling you to listen to those who carried on his work.

The various parts of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream image represented ruling world powers down through history starting with Babylon and ending with the rulers of the present day. If you remember the story, a large stone, cut out of a mountain, crushed the entire image in its feet and a wind blew every last vestige of corrupt human rulership into oblivion. (Daniel 2:44) The stone became a large mountain and filled the whole earth indicating that God’s kingdom would be global, not confined to one nation in the Middle East whom God has already discarded as incorrigible and intractable. (Matt 23:37-39)

If you don’t educate yourselves as to how much the light on the path has moved forward, you will be left in the dark, permanently….you have not progressed in your knowledge for a hundred years! Russell never wanted to create his own sect….he knew that he would have successors who would carry on after him. What made you think he wasn’t aware of that?

 

[Berean]

Show me where God’s first purpose for this earth and humankind upon it, ever changed?

Did I say anything different? I believe I said "we agree on that."

Since those chosen for a role in heaven are called ”firstfruits to God and to the Lamb” it makes sense that they were called “first”. So, those “called” in the first century would have been part of the elect. The Christian Scriptures were written by the elect for the elect…and when their numbers were filled, which did not happen in the first century, due to the foretold apostasy where the Christian faith would be overtaken by a satanicly inspired counterfeit, God eventually gathered his “other sheep” at the time of his return.

Agreed.

Many were perplexed during this early in the 19th century period, because many had no “upward call” to heaven.

And who exactly were these "many" you speak of? Seems to me the majority of professing Christians believed they were going to heaven; granted they may not have understood "the call", but they believed in going to heaven as believers. I mean, isn't that what the churches teach? "Believe on the Lord Jesus and be saved?" Isn't that what the Apostles indicated in their preaching work? (Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9; John 3:16; 6:47; 1 John 5:1) There was nothing in their ministry about living on earth forever, or knocking on doors, granted, when I became a believer and heard the call, I shared my faith with others.

It was then that they were identified and understood their place in God’s arrangement. These would become the subjects of that heavenly kingdom, joined later in the resurrection by millions more….and these would remain on earth.

Who are "they"? And how did they understand? And were they given a choice?

Without that “upward call” there is no desire to go to heaven. So there is no jealousy on their part…

Jane, the upward call was always there; it never ceased. It may have been lost sight of by the majority, but those truly searching would find it. They're not called a "little Flock" for nothing. Everyone who answers the "high calling" forms the church. Some are dedicated to their calling and can be recognized as "saints". Others, who may not be as dedicated for a time, could be seen as the Great Company. Most members of the church are likely to be "tares," which are planted by Satan, although during times of persecution, there tend to be fewer "tares."

As Christianity gained popularity, the "tares" became the vast majority. Lacking the Lord's Spirit, "tares" do not respond to the complete truth. They outnumber those who are spirit-begotten and create a significant obstacle within the church, blocking the work of the holy Spirit.

 

[Berean]

we of the earthly class are happy to have the best government that humans have ever had on this earth, which will return to the Edenic state it was meant to be. (Isa 55:11)

Jane, let me ask, were you given the opportunity to decide? To choose for yourself? Running for the prize of the high calling? Or were you told it wasn't available? You see, the majority of Jehovah's Witnesses don't see the high calling simply because for almost 100 years, that door of opportunity was literally closed to them. Judge Rutherford closed the door in 1935, gathering a "great company" who would live on earth. That was the whole purpose of the JW preaching work: to gather as many as possible into the spiritual ark before Armageddon. That year was a pivotal point in JW history, because it was taught that the generation of 1914 would not pass away until the end came. Of course, as you know, the generation was redefined and adjusted several times, to the point that it was, for the most part, done away with since the 1914 generation eventually passed away, and here we still are. And of course, a few years ago, 1935 was dropped, which begs the question, if 1935 is no longer a pivotal year, then whatever was taught about that year is no longer valid, that is, the gathering of a great company of earth dwellers.

Now, I'm not debating that the earth will not abide forever, or that mankind will dwell on it, what I'm debating is the belief that the Lord is gathering an earthly class now. Why would He call out a secondary group if he's not done with the initial group called, namely the elect?

Exactly….only the elect will go to heaven…the rest of us are content to stay where we are and be subjects of the heavenly kingdom, to have God’s will “done on earth as it is in heaven”….isn’t this what Jesus told us to pray for? What is the Kingdom for? How does it “come”.

Well, as I've stated before, if YOU are content to live on earth and be subjects of the heavenly kingdom, then so be it, but make sure, that is YOUR decision, and not a decision made for you. Again, as we discussed, there is only one call, and that is to be of the elect. Living on earth is the default, there is no call NOW to live on earth. That invitation will be given to the world, after the "little season" (Rev. 20:3) when mankind is perfect and tested as to their loyalty.

And what makes you think that? Living on earth is as you said, “the default” so why is it that those who have not received the heavenly calling want to live in heaven when here on earth is where God put us in the first place? Why did he create us here on earth if he was going to take people to heaven? It is a false expectation.

I never said "that those who have not received the heavenly calling want [or should want] to live in heaven." Remember, we're told that "many are called," not that "all are called." I guess I can ask you why you are preaching Earth if the opportunity to go to heaven is still open? Shouldn't you be searching for the remainder of the elect? Or do you believe the elect are only among your members?

Jesus has already done that….at this late stage it is safe to assume that the number of spiritual Israel are already sealed….

You know what they say about assuming . Can I ask why you assume that? Is there a formula? Or is it just your view and not based on scripture? I'd like to know.

he is about to make his appearance as judge of us all….and the kingdom is already in operation ready to take over earth’s rulership….as soon as he gives the signal…..are you ready?

It's good to know you believe the Kingdom is already in operation; that's a start. Let me ask, is Jesus ruling now? If so, when the Kingdom begin?

Those described in Rev 7 identify the number sealed as 144,000….and after that he sees a ‘great crowd‘ that no man could number and these are taken from all the nations on earth. These owe their salvation to God and to the Lamb. When John asked the angel to identify this great crowd, whose numbers are opposite to the finite number of the elect…he tells John that these “come out of the great tribulation”….which occurs on earth, and these are the survivors. The fall of Jerusalem took place in 70 CE, and John received his Revelation at the end of the first century……he is taken in vision to “the Lord’s day“ to see what is to take place in the future…..this “great tribulation” takes place as part of Christ’s return. Keep up….

Here's our take on Rev. 7:14. Many feel this term “great tribulation” merely refers to the tribulation at the end of the age. This is not the correct thought. These are those who, because of their unfaithfulness, failed to keep their robes white, were constantly getting them dirty with the flesh, but too often would go to the Lord and ask for forgiveness, washing their robes in the blood of the Lamb. Acts 14:22 "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." John 16:33 "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me you might have peace. In the world, you shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. According to these scriptures, all must pass through tribulation in order to enter the Kingdom, but these pass through greater tribulation because they bring tribulation upon themselves as the result of getting their robes spotted by the flesh. This is not to say that at the end of the age there won’t be a larger number that fall into this class than throughout the majority of the Gospel Age. But that is not what is being taught here. But if you are faithful." Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. We are now in that hour of temptation, and many are falling away from the Lord." Psalm 91:7-9 "A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shall you behold and see the reward of the wicked. Because you have made the LORD your refuge, even the Most High, your habitation."

Let's look at verse 15; "Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sits on the throne shall dwell among them.

So we're told that they are "before the throne" as opposed to in or on the throne. - Revelation 3:21-22 states "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches." These did not make their “calling and election sure”.

Let's look at Psalm 45:13-15 for a little insight; "The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. 14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions (the great company) that follow her shall be brought unto thee. (they also will receive a heavenly resurrection)15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace." (heaven itself) Here the King’s daughter represents the Church class: But she has virgins, her companions that follow her, they shall enter into the king's palace i.e. the heavenly realm. However, they are foolish virgins: Matthew 25:1-2 "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish."

 

[Berean]

If the “toes” are an allusion to the image of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, then I am afraid you are way off in your understanding…..stuck back in the last century with no new light…..we have come a long way since Russell….he is ruling in heaven as we speak, and I can hear him telling you to listen to those who carried on his work.

No, you misunderstood my thoughts. We agree that the elect, is a numbered class, 144,000. They are also referred to as the "body of Christ." At the end of the age, as the body is being completed, there will be fewer. You call them the "anointed remnant" or at least you did, I'm not so sure now. We call them the "feet members". I made the joke that at this stage of the gospel age, it's no longer feet, but that we're down to the toe members.

If you don’t educate yourselves as to how much the light on the path has moved forward, you will be left in the dark, permanently….you have not progressed in your knowledge for a hundred years!

It's interesting how you keep harping on "moving forward" and "progressing" towards "new light" as if that's something to be proud of. How much light do you need? How much progress is there when what you are taught and believed is constantly evolving and changing? Had your leaders never made any changes, would you still be making this case? Or would you simply say, "we have all the understanding we need"? Because that's how we feel, that we have all the understanding we need in order to make our calling and election sure.

The problem I have is that your leaders introduce a new thought and demand (if I dare say), that "this is the Truth revealed to us by Jehovah," and everyone is expected to fall in line or be disciplined if they don't accept it. Then, a few years later, they change it under the guise of "new light" revealed to them by Jehovah, and demand they accept the new view or be disciplined, only to have it change again and again, sometimes reverting back to an older view. I wonder if those who had initially rejected the view were ever apologized to? Never mind, i know the answer is no, because a few years ago, one of your governing body members said as much.

Russell never wanted to create his own sect….he knew that he would have successors who would carry on after him. What made you think he wasn’t aware of that?

And yet that is exactly what you guys created, a sect, a denomination, with all its bells and whistles, taking advantage of the laws to recognize you as a religion.

For your information, Bible Students still function as they did 150 years ago. We meet in private homes and rented halls. We don't have a central headquarters or a governing body that directs our activities. Each of our ecclesias (congregations) are independent of each other, we elect our own elders , deacons and other officers. No one gets paid. We sponsor our own conventions, which the members of the congregation pay for, which include meals. Conventions are anywhere from 2 to 5 days each. As small groups, we are not registered with state governments as non-profits organizations. That's not to say we don't have our own publishing houses, that publish books, booklets, tracts, videos, software, newsletters and monthly journals. We might be small and insignificant to you, but then the Church has always been small and insignificant in the eyes of the world.

 

[Brakelite]

I've already lived as if there were no after life. It was miserable. Lonely. Selfish. Unsatisfying. Superficial. No comparison with today. I know Jesus. Living my best life.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Let me just address this one point…..

For your information, Bible Students still function as they did 150 years ago. We meet in private homes and rented halls. We don't have a central headquarters or a governing body that directs our activities. Each of our ecclesias (congregations) are independent of each other, we elect our own elders , deacons and other officers. No one gets paid. We sponsor our own conventions, which the members of the congregation pay for, which include meals. Conventions are anywhere from 2 to 5 days each. As small groups, we are not registered with state governments as non-profits organizations. That's not to say we don't have our own publishing houses, that publish books, booklets, tracts, videos, software, newsletters and monthly journals. We might be small and insignificant to you, but then the Church has always been small and insignificant in the eyes of the world.

Your last sentence there is what I wanted to concentrate on…..was the church expected to grow?…or to remain small and insignificant? Was the relatively local religion of the first century Christians going to spread out into the whole world? (Acts 1:8)

Rom 10:13-15…
”For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD (Jehovah) shall be saved.” How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,Who bring glad tidings of good things!” (NKJV)

Isn’t this what Jesus said as part of his prophesy about the last days of this present world system, or the time of his return? He gave signs to identify the times we are living in…(Matt 24:3-14)
Matt 24:14….
”And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (NKJV)
This preaching work was part of that sign when he was to return.

Unless you have preachers in all those nations during this “time of the end”, actively preaching as he instructed, how were Jesus’ words going to be fulfilled? “All the world” had to receive this “witness” before “the end” came. It requires an army of preachers in every nation.

And Jesus also said of his disciples by way of a solemn warning that the road they had chosen was not one without some heavy roadblocks (Matt 7:13-14)….he told them….

”If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.” (NKJV)

Are your group hated and persecuted by the world? Are you out there preaching as Jesus instructed? (Matt 10:11-14) Who knows that you exist outside of your own neighborhoods? And for what reason would they hate you, if they never see you or hear from you or know who you are?

In the eyes of the world….you do not really exist as any major threat to their doctrines or beliefs. Yet in his day, people knew Pastor Russell as a powerful speaker who could wipe the floor with any clergyman in debating Scripture. Many would gather to hear him…..he really knew how to stir the pot and get the juices flowing in both camps and for obvious reasons.

The “great awakening” took place but satan was at the ready to make his counterfeits look like the real thing. As time has progressed more and more divisions in Christendom have surfaced.
And God has kept pace with what Satan is doing in the world…..keeping his servants united under one governing body as it was in the first century…..no congregation operated independently of that body who were made up of the apostles and carefully appointed and spiritually qualified, older men.

Without a central governing body, divisions were bound to occur, as men tried to implement their own ideas and take away disciples for themselves….which is why the first Christians operated in an organized way.….to keep the body of those in the Christian faith unified (1 Cor 1:10)…..but Christendom took the other path and now look at them? More divided and fragmented than ever.

We as Christ’s disciples have an assignment…..but a small and insignificant group will not be able to take on such a task…

 

[Gottservant]

Wow so if you were tortured you would deny the Lord?

That would send you to hell.

Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Two things: one, God would understand; two, there are degrees of denial - denial in a moment of torture does not rate very highly.

 

[St. SteVen]

New Topic.

How does your life experience inform your theology and doctrines?

On another thread I made this observation: "I find it interesting that our life experience informs our theology and doctrines." The person I was speaking with had a completely different life experience than mine. And these experiences had shaped their theology and doctrines. Have you given...

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[Berean]

Let me just address this one point…..

So you're just going to gloss over everything else I said. Fair enough!

Your last sentence there is what I wanted to concentrate on…..was the church expected to grow?…or to remain small and insignificant? Was the relatively local religion of the first century Christians going to spread out into the whole world? (Acts 1:8)

Tell me Jane, what part of "Little Flock" don't you understand?

 

[Aunty Jane]

So you're just going to gloss over everything else I said. Fair enough!

What point is there is rehashing things….you won’t change my mind nor will I change yours…..but the truth is the truth regardless of what anyone believes…..believing something won’t make it true if it isn’t.

There are going to many who will receive a shock when Jesus rejects them…(Matt 7:21-23) let’s just hope that we are not among them…..this is why we have to do our homework….to “make sure of all things”….

Tell me Jane, what part of "Little Flock" don't you understand?

I understand the “little flock” very well…..it is “little” in relation to those who are saved….as any government is smaller than the number of subjects over whom they have been given authority.

We will have a heavenly government of God, with Jesus Christ at the helm as King and High Priest, ably assisted by those whom God has chosen to rule with him as “kings and priests”. (Rev 20:6)

These are the 144,000 ”chosen from among mankind as firstfruits” (Rev 14:1-4) and these were chosen first and will be “resurrected first” so that when Christ comes with his angels for the judgment, all will be in place ready to take over as earth’s new and permanent government…..God’s Kingdom will “come”, so that God’s will can “be done, on earth as it is in heaven”…

The big picture is simple…Christ came to give us back what Adam lost in Eden. God knows what he’s doing.

 

[Berean]

The big picture is simple…Christ came to give us back what Adam lost in Eden. God knows what he’s doing.

That he does? But do you and your leaders? Tell you what ... don't be surprised when you find you're not the only ones in the Kingdom.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That he does? But do you and your leaders? Tell you what ... don't be surprised when you find you're not the only ones in the Kingdom.

Since those who would enjoy Kingdom rule as either rulers or subjects, God chooses both. (John 6:44; 65)

I trust his judgment.

 

[Berean]

I trust his judgment.

Seems like you trust more in the Governing Body

 

[Aunty Jane]

Seems like you trust more in the Governing Body

Why does that bother you? They had one back in the first century….a central, governing body, made up of the apostles and older men, who guided and directed all the congregations and made decisions that all adhered to…..why don’t you have one?

 

[Berean]

Why does that bother you? They had one back in the first century….a central, governing body, made up of the apostles and older men, who guided and directed all the congregations and made decisions that all adhered to…..why don’t you have one?

Did they? I don't see "governing body " in my Bible, is it in the NWT?

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic:

What is the state of the dead in the afterlife?

On another topic this discussion below was happening. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ St. SteVen said: Everyone who passes into the afterlife is physically dead. They leave their physical body behind. Everything else goes with them into the afterlife. The dead have...

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[David Lamb]

Did they? I don't see "governing body " in my Bible, is it in the NWT?

I agree. Certainly, the apostles were in a special position, which no longer exists, and they did have authority, under Christ. However, each local church had its own overseers/elders, and their authority was only with regard to their local church.

 

[Berean]

I agree. Certainly, the apostles were in a special position, which no longer exists, and they did have authority, under Christ. However, each local church had its own overseers/elders, and their authority was only with regard to their local church.

Yes, keep in mind that the Watchtower Society first used the phrase "governing body" in a specific legal sense, and they actually didn't use it very often. According to the Watchtower, it wasn't until "the year 1944 that the Watchtower magazine started talking about the governing body of the Christian congregation." (Watchtower, Dec. 15, 1971, p. 755) Since the 1950s, the term would frequently be used to refer to the first century, making statements like, “The apostle Paul belonged to the governing body in the first century” (Watchtower, April 15, 1951, p. 235 par. 7) without citing one scriptural backup. On the other hand, the magazine described the modern day “Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, [as] the governing body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.” (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1950, p. 10 par. 2)