I have my doubts that Catholicism is Christianity

[Behold]

Yes and if your faith is empty of works you have no salvation.

Its Faith in Christ that God has accepted to save you, based on the finished work of Jesus on The Cross, and if you have no works after you are saved , then you have no saving faith to begin with, , and are not saved.

Works Prove your Faith that God accepted to saved you.. initiallly.

 

[nedsk]

Its Faith in Christ that God has accepted to save you, based on the finished work of Jesus on The Cross, and if you have no works after you are saved , then you have no saving faith to begin with, , and are not saved.

Works Prove your Faith that God accepted to saved you.. initiallly.

Correct two sides of the same coin. You still possess free will once you are saved by faith but faith absence work is useless. Works are inseprarable from faith if you are to be saved.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

They say faith is necessary not sufficient. You folks do understand what sufficient means right?

This is a futile conversation, you do know. You are locked until your belief system. If 100 scriptures can't persuade you, nothing can. Christ will sort things out for you later. But let we warn you, if you live by the LAW, you will be judged by the Law.

What we believe is that Christ's blood sacrifice is sufficient. You claim that there is something more to be done, implying what Christ did, was not enough. After we are saved, works have already been prepared for us to do. God works though us. So it is not that we do not need to participate, love one another, do good; but we are not saved by those works. We are saved by faith in Christ, His Work on the cross.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph. 2:8-9

Capese?

 

[nedsk]

This is a futile conversation, you do know. You are locked until your belief system. If 100 scriptures can't persuade you, nothing can. Christ will sort things out first you later. But let we warn you, if you live by the LAW, you will be judged by the Law.

What we believe is that Christ's blood sacrifice is sufficient. You claim thmstt at there is something more to be done, implying what Christ did, was not enough. After we are saved, works have already been prepared for us to do. God works though us. So it is not that we do not need to participate, love one another, do good; but we are not saved by those works. We are saved by faith in Christ, His Work on the cross.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph. 2:8-9

Capese?

Yes saved through faith but faith absent works is futile. James 2:20-22. You aren't arguing with me you are arguing with Scripture.

You put this up

""""God's will is that everyone BELIEVE in Jesus, whom God sent""""'.


Matt 7:21

"Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of the father." Do you believe him?

Matt 25:37-40 who enter the kingdom? the righteous? What did they do? They fed the hungry clothed the naked etc. It's Scripture not me

 

[Behold]

Correct two sides of the same coin.

Not at all,

See, you are teaching that your works, are equal to Jesus's Sacrifice.. as if.. Jesus's Sacrifice is not good enough., """" so let me add my works to it....."""""
= You are adding your works, to The Cross, as if Jesus's Sacrifice is not sufficent to save you. @nedsk


So....Think about this, and i'll leave you there.

Now, lets say there is an sinner....>He or she is just living for sin......living in sin.., for 45 yrs.... daily.

One day, they see an old woman who is fallen down on the sidewalk, she's laying there..... and they rush to her and help her up, and help her to her car, carefully.....tenderly.
So, that is a GOOD WORK.
They also notice that she is very thin, and they realize she is very poor......... so they give her some MONEY.

Now, that is 2 Good works.

So, are they saved now that they have committed two GOOD works that a Christian would normally do?

NO.

Why not?
Because its just works.


Now.........we have a Christian.....who does the same 2 good works for the same old woman.
So, what is the difference?

A.) NOTHING.......there is no difference between a Christian doing a good work and an unbelivever doing 1 or 1000 per week.

God does not CARE about good works......with regards to HIS SALVATION..........as He only gives it as "Grace through FAITH".

God's salvation is JESUS.......not our works.

JESUS is SALVATION.........no works required., as its "the FREE GIFT of Salvation"..

"well behold.......are you telling me that a sinners good works and a Saints good works are both the same.. they are just WORKS......so i should never BELIEVE that WORKS have anything to do with GOD's SALVATION = WHO IS JESUS on THE CROSS""> ??

= Exactly.

 

[nedsk]

Not at all,

See, you are teaching that your works, are equal to Jesus's Sacrifice.. as if.. Jesus's Sacrifice is not good enough., """" so let me add my works to it....."""""
= You are adding your works, to The Cross, as if Jesus's Sacrifice is not sufficent to save you. @nedsk


So....Think about this, and i'll leave you there.

Now, lets say there is an sinner....>He or she is just living for sin......living in sin.., for 45 yrs.... daily.

One day, they see an old woman who is fallen down on the sidewalk, she's laying there..... and they rush to her and help her up, and help her to her car, carefully.....tenderly.
So, that is a GOOD WORK.
They also notice that she is very thin, and they realize she is very poor......... so they give her some MONEY.

Now, that is 2 Good works.

So, are they saved now that they have committed two GOOD works that a Christian would normally do?

NO.

Why not?
Because its just works.


Now.........we have a Christian.....who does the same 2 good works for the same old woman.
So, what is the difference?

A.) NOTHING.......there is no difference between a Christian doing a good work and an unbelivever doing 1 or 1000 per week.

God does not CARE about good works......with regards to HIS SALVATION..........as He only gives it as "Grace through FAITH".

God's salvation is JESUS.......not our works.

JESUS is SALVATION.........no works required., as its "the FREE GIFT of Salvation"..

"well behold.......are you telling me that a sinners good works and a Saints good works are both the same.. they are just WORKS......so i should never BELIEVE that WORKS have anything to do with GOD's SALVATION = WHO IS JESUS on THE CROSS""> ??

= Exactly.

Now you're just ignoring Scripture. You aren't fighting with me friend. It's hilarious

 

[nedsk]

This is a futile conversation, you do know. You are locked until your belief system. If 100 scriptures can't persuade you, nothing can. Christ will sort things out first you later. But let we warn you, if you live by the LAW, you will be judged by the Law.

What we believe is that Christ's blood sacrifice is sufficient. You claim that there is something more to be done, implying what Christ did, was not enough. After we are saved, works have already been prepared for us to do. God works though us. So it is not that we do not need to participate, love one another, do good; but we are not saved by those works. We are saved by faith in Christ, His Work on the cross.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph. 2:8-9

Capese?

I've reflected in this post even more. You say I'm locked into my belief system. You're not?

100 scriptures that don't say faith is sufficient does not persuade me. Btw volume alone doesn't impress me. God only said once, let there be light. Something doesn't need to appear 100 times nis Scripture in order for it to be true.

Yes Christs blood sacrifice is sufficient but that's not the question here.

I have NEVER said works save anyone. Or you can show otherwise. That's a rote response from people.who.are told what to say.

Capese?

 

[NotTheRock]

Here's my understanding regarding works and salvation. Is a believer required to become a missionary? No. Is a believer required to help a person in desperate need while walking down the street? Yes. Supporting scriptures:

John 6:28-29
28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Matthew 25:34-46
34 `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

35 for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;

36 naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.

37 `Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?

38 and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?

39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?

40 `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did [it].

41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

42 for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;

43 a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.

44 `Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?

45 `Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me.

46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Regarding people who are RC I find vast differences within such.
You have different Orders within the RC and then you have the Doctrines of the RC but most Priest are peddling something other and most RC are not of indepth understanding, as it is with all Christian Church's.

What I have seen over the last 20 years and more so in the last 10 years say is Socialism Political Correct gods is the new Church ! All watered down so as to not upset anyone ! you can believe in the tooth fairy like stuff. and all is good !
Pixie Land stuff and that's the people they seek to come into the Church's nowadays. that's what is growing and dominating !

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of the father." Do you believe him

Matthew's gospel is clearly written for a Jewish Christian audience living within the immediate proximity of the homeland itself. Matthew's is the most Jewish of all the gospels with

MATTHEW opens with a geneology. This would be a meaningless introduction to Gentiles. The Gospel of Matthew focuses on Jesus as the Messiah of the Jews, its emphasis on Jewish traditions and customs, and its inclusion of extensive Old Testament references. ( This does not mean the totality if the message is not valuable for Christians. After we have learned the OT, then we understand Matthew better.
But on Judgment Day, Jesus is addressing the Jews in Matthew 7:22-23. They did not do the will of the Father (which was to receive the truth, love Jesus and Christians). However, these are the ones who rejected Jesus and Christianity. Now they realize _ on Judgment Day _ their error, but plead with Him, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"vs. 22.
 T
There argument comes from a salvation by works premise, ( the Law), which the Jews tried to live by and keep. This verse identifies who he is talking to. The Gentiles did not know the God of the Bible; nor could they claim to have prophesied in Your name ( they used LORD, Adonai, Heshem) or cast out demons. The Gentile unbelievers could not make these claims.
In verse 23, Jesus says I never knew you (meaning never had a relationship with you).

I have NEVER said works save anyone.

Never said you did. You believe in a faith + works salvation. The "faith without works is dead" verse is just an identifying attribute if a mature Christian as is: " by their fruit you will know them". As I said, AFTER we are saved, we are infant Christians ( not yet mature enough to produce fruit or do the works). So we grow in knowledge of the Lord and spiritually, THEN we start doing the woks God prepared for us to do and produce fruit.

You put this up

""""God's will is that everyone BELIEVE in Jesus, whom God sent""""'.

Where did I say that? God desires that none will perish and that all come to Him. Judgment Day is part of His will, justice, the elimination of evil and sin forever and so obviously His desire is not fulfilled.

 

[David Lamb]

Matthew's gospel is clearly written for a Jewish Christian audience living within the immediate proximity of the homeland itself. Matthew's is the most Jewish of all the gospels with

MATTHEW opens with a geneology. This would be a meaningless introduction to Gentiles.

True, but we can't make too much of that. Luke was addressing a Gentile audience, yet in Luke 3 he includes a genealogy too.

 

[nedsk]

Here's my understanding regarding works and salvation. Is a believer required to become a missionary? No. Is a believer required to help a person in desperate need while walking down the street? Yes. Supporting scriptures:

John 6:28-29
28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Matthew 25:34-46
34 `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

35 for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;

36 naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.

37 `Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?

38 and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?

39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?

40 `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did [it].

41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

42 for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;

43 a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.

44 `Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?

45 `Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me.

46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

But separated from faith its just a good deed. With faith it's salvific. Just as James 2: 21-22 says,

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? This you can see that his faith and his works were active together; his faith was brought to completion by works.

Beautiful

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

True, but we can't make too much of that. Luke was addressing a Gentile audience, yet in Luke 3 he includes a genealogy too.

Matthew traces Jesus lineage back to Abraham, (Father of the Jewish nation, identifying Him as their Messiah).
Luke's genealogy goes back to Adam, connecting Jesus to not only the Jews , but to all mankind.

 

[nedsk]

Matthew's gospel is clearly written for a Jewish Christian audience living within the immediate proximity of the homeland itself. Matthew's is the most Jewish of all the gospels with

MATTHEW opens with a geneology. This would be a meaningless introduction to Gentiles. The Gospel of Matthew focuses on Jesus as the Messiah of the Jews, its emphasis on Jewish traditions and customs, and its inclusion of extensive Old Testament references. ( This does not mean the totality if the message is not valuable for Christians. After we have learned the OT, then we understand Matthew better.
But on Judgment Day, Jesus is addressing the Jews in Matthew 7:22-23. They did not do the will of the Father (which was to receive the truth, love Jesus and Christians). However, these are the ones who rejected Jesus and Christianity. Now they realize _ on Judgment Day _ their error, but plead with Him, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"vs. 22.
 T
There argument comes from a salvation by works premise, ( the Law), which the Jews tried to live by and keep. This verse identifies who he is talking to. The Gentiles did not know the God of the Bible; nor could they claim to have prophesied in Your name ( they used LORD, Adonai, Heshem) or cast out demons. The Gentile unbelievers could not make these claims.
In verse 23, Jesus says I never knew you (meaning never had a relationship with you).

Never said you did. You believe in a faith + works salvation. The "faith without works is dead" verse is just an identifying attribute if a mature Christian as is: " by their fruit you will know them". As I said, AFTER we are saved, we are infant Christians ( not yet mature enough to produce fruit or do the works). So we grow in knowledge of the Lord and spiritually, THEN we start doing the woks God prepared for us to do and produce fruit.

Where did I say that? God desires that none will perish and that all come to Him. Judgment Day is part of His will, justice, the elimination of evil and sin forever and so obviously His desire is not fulfilled.

But we are free agents and as such are free to choose not to behave. This is not a judgement because it true for me as well, but we choose everyday not to do the works that faith would require of us if we were not free agents. To suggest works automatically flow from faith is nonsensical. If they were true half the misery in the world would disappear overnight. If it were true James would not have had to write,

You fool! Do you want proof that that without works is futile?

I thought it was you maybe it was not. If not please accept my apologies. Judgment day is Gods will and the righteous are determined by their works and not simply their faith.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

To suggest works automatically flow from faith is nonsensical.

God works through us, He gets the credit. He prepares works forus to do in accordance to His Perfect Plan. We can do nothing without Him. We receive power and abilities, gifts and orders from the Holy Spirit. We cooperate with His plan. James is really saying, let's see the works/ fruit of the Holy Spirit in your life. If you do not have the Holy Spirit, you are still dead.

Titus 3:5:
This verse highlights that salvation is not earned through our own efforts but is a gift from God's mercy, given through the Holy Spirit.

Eph. 2:10
This verse states that we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in.

 Gal. 5:22:
This verse lists the fruit of the Spirit, which includes love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control, all of which are good works.

 

[nedsk]

God works through us, He gets the credit. He prepares works forus to do in accordance to His Perfect Plan. We can do nothing without Him. We receive power and abilities, gifts and orders from the Holy Spirit. We cooperate with His plan. James is really saying, let's see the works/ fruit of the Holy Spirit in your life. If you do not have the Holy Spirit, you are still dead.

Titus 3:5:
This verse highlights that salvation is not earned through our own efforts but is a gift from God's mercy, given through the Holy Spirit.

Eph. 2:10
This verse states that we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in.

 Gal. 5:22:
This verse lists the fruit of the Spirit, which includes love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control, all of which are good works.

So we cease to have free will when we are saved. You have no choice but to do the works God has prepared for you to do?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So we cease to have free will when we are saved. You have no choice but to do the works God has prepared for you to do?

Come on ... do you really think the Holy Spirit would deprive you of writing your inaccurate interpretations of scriptures ... nah. On occasion, He'll allow you to do something meaningful! Just wait ... it will come.

 

[Rockerduck]

But separated from faith its just a good deed. With faith it's salvific. Just as James 2: 21-22 says,

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? This you can see that his faith and his works were active together; his faith was brought to completion by works.

Beautiful

Jehovah told Abraham to offer Isaac on an altar. So, James' works definition is obeying God. Not what you think is good works.

 

[nedsk]

Come on ... do you really think the Holy Spirit would deprive you of writing your inaccurate interpretations of scriptures ... nah. On occasion, He'll allow you to do something meaningful! Just wait ... it will come.

So then we have to choose to do the works God has prepared for us like you claim. Correct? That means we are free not to do them. If that's the case then they don't just automatic flow from faith we have to choose to do them. Since it's a choice we are held accountable for what we choose to do and not do.

One day you'll actually think and won't just parrot rote responses.

 

[nedsk]

Jehovah told Abraham to offer Isaac on an altar. So, James' works definition is obeying God. Not what you think is good works.

You haven't got the first clue what I think is "good" works. You think you do because your kind always thinks you know more than you actually do. Sad but true. What I know is had Abraham NOT done what was asked, which he was free to do do, then his faith would have been meaningless.