The Doctrines of Grace

[Scott Downey]

see. but this is missing it also

God shows mercy to all.. Its jut that all will not accept it..

He showed mercy to Israel when he came. even prayed for them, and cried for them./ But they were not willing

A difference though, as tears of sorrow from Christ is not saving them.
Christ laments their fate because of their continual rejection.

The mercy of God for salvation is not a possibility or probability it is an actuality.
It means those with that mercy come from God do not have their sins imputed to them.

• Romans 9:15
  For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Romans 9:16
  So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Romans 9:18
  Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Romans 9:23
  and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1 Peter 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,​

What comes first? God's mercy for you making your born again or your faith?

You cannot even see or believe in Christ unless first born again.
You had no part in being born again, that was of the will of God, independent of you.

John 1
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

The issue is you cannot even say or acknowledge Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit, that one thing removes you entirely from faith being of yourself, your faith in Christ is the gift of God.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

A difference though, as tears of sorrow from Christ is not saving them.
Christ laments their fate because of their continual rejection.
you can;t have it both ways,

You can not say that God allowed people to freely chose to not go with him in one area. and not in another

either we have free will or we do not

and PS. if they had believe, they would have done so trusting god. and if they did that, they would be saved

 

[Scott Downey]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ​

Who is He?

There is God the Father and then there is God the Son. There is actually a difference, they are still one though.

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A [f]scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

Psalm 110

Announcement of the Messiah’s Reign​

A Psalm of David.​

1 The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
2 The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
3 Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.
4 The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall [a]execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall [b]execute the heads of many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.

Hebrews 1

God’s Supreme Revelation​

1 God, who [a]at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the [b]worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had [c]by Himself [d]purged [e]our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

The Son Exalted Above Angels​

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says:

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A [f]scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

 

[Dash RipRock]

Then the clueless continue to IGNORE what God says in His Word:

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.

Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

In fact.... you and I are three that is one (we are a spirit, we possess a soul, and we live in a body)

1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

After all... the Lord did create man in His Own Image.

Genesis 1:26 - God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

That's the Father, the Word, and the Spirit saying "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

But those that don't accept what God says in His Word will continue to peddle their deception, so these people should be ignored.

 

[Scott Downey]

1 The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

1 Corinthians 10

New King James Version

​

Old Testament Examples​

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

 

[Dash RipRock]

I can't help you if you read the terribly render KJB.

OK, so in your translation:

Ever see all the scriptures about the Father?
Ever see all the scriptures about Jesus?
Ever see all the scriptures about the Holy Spirit?

Even the slow people can figure out that there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.

 

[Dash RipRock]

I must be slow

Well there ya go! Why not accept what God says in His Word and quit being slow?

You cannot deny there are scriptures talking about about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

So it's obvious that there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.

Maybe some day you can just have childlike faith and simply believe what God says in His Word.

Do you think that day will ever come?

 

[PinSeeker]

Ever wonder why God condemned mankind in Adam?

Note this in Rom 11.32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Right, may have mercy on them all. But He obviously doesn't; Paul has just said ~ quoting Moses, but really God Himself ~ "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” And Paul goes on to say, "He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." (Romans 9:15,18).

Grace and peace to you, KUWN.

 

[KUWN]

Right, may have mercy on them all. But He obviously doesn't; Paul has just said ~ quoting Moses, but really God Himself ~ "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” And Paul goes on to say, "He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." (Romans 9:15,18).

Grace and peace to you, KUWN.

The "may" that you highlighted is part of a Purpose Clause that goes with hINA. There is no sense of contingency with this clause. When you do Systematic Theology, you have to take into consideration hundreds of other passages. One passage that everyone seems to have overlooked is 2 Pt 2.1. This verse tells us that all unbelievers have been redeemed. It doesn't mean that all unbelievers are Saved, it just means they have been purchased. Salvation is the result of having faith in God's offer of salvation. Most bible students deny this verse teaches this, and look for a hidden meaning. It's just like all unbelievers have their sins paid for, but that doesn't mean they are saved.

The mercy on all is related to God's provision for all people (redeeming them, paying for their sins). All were temporarily condemned in Adam, all people, no exceptions.

 

[Scott Downey]

The "may" that you highlighted is part of a Purpose Clause that goes with hINA. There is no sense of contingency with this clause. When you do Systematic Theology, you have to take into consideration hundreds of other passages. One passage that everyone seems to have overlooked is 2 Pt 2.1. This verse tells us that all unbelievers have been redeemed. It doesn't mean that all unbelievers are Saved, it just means they have been purchased. Salvation is the result of having faith in God's offer of salvation. Most bible students deny this verse teaches this, and look for a hidden meaning. It's just like all unbelievers have their sins paid for, but that doesn't mean they are saved.

The mercy on all is related to God's provision for all people (redeeming them, paying for their sins). All were temporarily condemned in Adam, all people, no exceptions.

I think Peter saying 'bought' here is like this

1 Timothy 2
1 Therefore I [a]exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in [b]authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and [c]reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth [d]in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

1 Timothy 4
7 But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end [c]we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach.

False teachers though corrupt themselves.

2 Peter 2

Deceptions of False Teachers​

18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who [i]have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of [j]corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into [k]bondage.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

**************************
They are not His sheep, they are like ancient Israel here vs those who are called, sanctified by God the Father and preserved in Jesus Christ.
They are like the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt with ancient Israel. Among them but not of them.
**************************
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, [a]sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Contend for the Faith​

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord [b]God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Old and New Apostates​

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their [c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [d]vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[Dash RipRock]

Right, may have mercy on them all. But He obviously doesn't; Paul has just said ~ quoting Moses, but really God Himself ~ "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” And Paul goes on to say, "He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." (Romans 9:15,18).

And the calvinists take this and falsely claim God decides who gets saved and all others God decided to assign them to hell before they were even born.

 

[Scott Downey]

Here they are as the mixed multitude. They were not of Israel.

1. Exodus 12:38
   A mixed multitude went up with them also, and flocks and herds—a great deal of livestock.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Numbers 11:4
   Now the mixed multitude who were among them yielded to intense craving; so the children of Israel also wept again and said: “Who will give us meat to eat?
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Nehemiah 13:3
   So it was, when they had heard the Law, that they separated all the mixed multitude from Israel.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Jeremiah 25:20
   all the mixed multitude, all the kings of the land of Uz, all the kings of the land of the Philistines (namely, Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod);
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
5. Jeremiah 25:24
   all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed multitude who dwell in the desert;
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[PinSeeker]

The mercy on all is related to God's provision for all people (redeeming them, paying for their sins). All were temporarily condemned in Adam, all people, no exceptions.

In one sense, this is true; God does give mercy to all, at the very least giving them life. This is what we call God's common grace, meaning this measure of grace is given by God to all people.

However, when we talk about God's saving mercy, His salvific grace, this is His particular grace, which He only gives to some, not all. Now, of course He could give it to all if He so chose to do so, which is what the 'may' indicates in that verse. But He does not, which is in keeping with what God Himself says, that He will have mercy upon whom He has mercy, compassion upon whom He has compassion. In that statement, God affirms His sovereignty in the giving of this mercy and that not all will receive it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

And the calvinists take this and falsely claim God decides who gets saved....

This is true; Paul says the following:

• "...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth'... God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..." (Romans 9)

Notice here that of these "vessels of wrath," it says they are prepared for destruction, while the "vessels of mercy" He has prepared beforehand for glory. Seeing that distinction is important.​

• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He (the Father) chose us in Him (the Son) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He (the Father) predestined us for adoption to Himself (the Father) as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His (the Father's) will..." (Ephesians 1:3-5)

... and all others God decided to assign them to hell before they were even born.

But this is not true. See directly above, particularly the first bullet item and the note directly under it. He did choose who He chose, to be conformed to the image of His son, and that's the one choice He made. Now, you could say that by not choosing those whom He did not choose, He made a decision regarding those people, and that would be true, but He did not actively choose to "assign them to hell" at any point in time. He did not "decide to assign them to hell before they were even born" or any time subsequent to that, but only "endured" many, even with "much patience," and even giving them grace ~ but not His salvific grace ~ during their lives. This is what Paul says in Romans 1:224-25, and even gives God's reason for doing so:

"Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever!"​

This is the problem... and what in the larger sense renders your previous "exposition" of Calvin's TULIP really... sorry... null and void; your understandings of each of Calvin's five points ~ the 'T,' the 'U,' the 'L,' the 'I,' and the 'P' are egregiously wrong. The only question, really, is whether that's purposeful or inadvertent, but in either case it is what it is... you reject what you don't even know. We can take each one in turn and discuss, but something tells me you just won't want to do that... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dash RipRock]

Notice here that of these "vessels of wrath," it says they are prepared for destruction, while the "vessels of mercy" He has prepared beforehand for glory. Seeing that distinction is important.

Yeah, the calvinists claim is the following passages are lies the Lord put in His Word as they accuse God of being a liar claiming Calvin knows more than God Himself:

Titus 2:11,12 - For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

1 John 2:2 - Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:1-4 - I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Acts 17:30 - And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL men every where to repent:

John 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9 - But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

He did choose who He chose, to be conformed to the image of His son

Actually He chose all tthat He forknew, which is all men because He had foreknowledge of each and ever person thnat would be born
Romans 8:29,30 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God calls things that be not as though they were (Romans 4:17) which is why the passages I posted above are true showing that it's God's will that all be saved and He has provided for all men to be saved,

Just because not all men actually get saved does not mean the Lord does not want them to or that He has not provided salvation for all men.

your understandings of each of Calvin's five points ~ the 'T,' the 'U,' the 'L,' the 'I,' and the 'P' are egregiously wrong

Calvin is a heretic and an unrepentant murderer and the scripture twisting, scripture ommissions and overall ignorance of what God's will is by the followers of Calvin does nothing to gaslight me. But there's lots of naive people they can pray on who enjoy their ears being tickled by false teachers.

Of course the followers of calvin will continue in their cult as they espouse the doctrines of demons that have been brainwashed with until they eventually become separated from God for all eternity for their heresy.

Heresy is one of the works of the flesh that cause people to not inherit the kingdom of God so in the end the calvinists go to the same burning fire the pharisees and sadducees went to.

Galatians 5:19-21 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

We can take each one in turn and discuss, but something tells me you just won't want to do that

I don't sit under doctrines of devils and those that espouse such get the devil's reward in the end - eternal fire!

 

[KUWN]

This is true; Paul says the following:

• "...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth'... God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..." (Romans 9)

Notice here that of these "vessels of wrath," it says they are prepared for destruction, while the "vessels of mercy" He has prepared beforehand for glory. Seeing that distinction is important.​

• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He (the Father) chose us in Him (the Son) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He (the Father) predestined us for adoption to Himself (the Father) as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His (the Father's) will..." (Ephesians 1:3-5)

But this is not true. See directly above, particularly the first bullet item and the note directly under it. He did choose who He chose, to be conformed to the image of His son, and that's the one choice He made. Now, you could say that by not choosing those whom He did not choose, He made a decision regarding those people, and that would be true, but He did not actively choose to "assign them to hell" at any point in time. He did not "decide to assign them to hell before they were even born" or any time subsequent to that, but only "endured" many, even with "much patience," and even giving them grace ~ but not His salvific grace ~ during their lives. This is what Paul says in Romans 1:224-25, and even gives God's reason for doing so:

"Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever!"​

This is the problem... and what in the larger sense renders your previous "exposition" of Calvin's TULIP really... sorry... null and void; your understandings of each of Calvin's five points ~ the 'T,' the 'U,' the 'L,' the 'I,' and the 'P' are egregiously wrong. The only question, really, is whether that's purposeful or inadvertent, but in either case it is what it is. We can take each one in turn and discuss, but something tells me you just won't want to do that... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

All you have done is to list a bunch of verses. You have not defeated those passages that take the opposite. For every verse you quoted a non-Calvinist could present with you the opposite.

Luke 13:3...
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

1 Tim 2
This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

and hundreds more...

 

[Dash RipRock]

Calvinists always claim their bible passages can beat up non-calvinist bible passages

 

[PinSeeker]

All you have done is to list a bunch of verses. You have not defeated those passages that take the opposite.

Well, right, because there are no passages that "take the opposite." Are you saying Scripture contradicts itself? Surely not...

For every verse you quoted a non-Calvinist could present with you the opposite.

Luke 13:3...
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

1 Tim 2
This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

and hundreds more...

Okay, I'll take these two, and then we can talk about the other "hundreds" if you want... <chuckles>

Luke 13:3...​

I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.​

What's puzzling to me here is how you think this offers anything contrary to what I've said. Yes, our repentance is an essential part of our salvation. However, our repentance is not a work on our part that merits salvation. We repent (and believe, for that matter) once we have been born again of the Spirit, having previously been dead in the trespasses and sins in which we once walked. When we were in that natural state ~ even from conception ~ we followed the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:1-3. As Paul says in Romans 2:4, it is God Who leads us to repentance. And it is the Holy Spirit Who convicts us of our sin and therefore we repent. This is what faith is, the very definition of faith, given us in Hebrews 11:1... "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." So what Jesus says here in Luke 13 is true, for sure, but it is not a work from which we earn or merit salvation in any way; rather it is something we do as a result of the good work that God has begun in us, bringing us from death in sin to life in Christ. Even so, yes, unless we repent, we will perish.

1 Tim 2​

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.​

Also true, of course, but not all people will be saved and come to knowledge of the truth. And notice the order there: the coming to the knowledge of the truth happens, for any one person, after they have been saved... born again of the Spirit. I would point out a quote from Jesus in John 10 here: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." To insinuate that God gives this salvific mercy to all and somehow "loses out" on any is egregiously wrong. God's purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2), and His Word never returns to Him empty; it always accomplishes that which He purposes, and succeeds in the thing for which He sends it (Isaiah 55:10-11).

So neither one of these verses even speak to what you think they're speaking to. Aside from that, though, there is a sense in which Jesus's sacrifice was for all, and that it in the context of sufficiency. Jesus's work on the cross was sufficient to accomplish the redemption of all mankind. And the general call of the Gospel, to repent and believe, goes out to all people without discrimination. So in that sense unlimited.

There is, though, another sense in which Jesus only died for some, for His sheep, the ones given to Him by the Father. Again, from John 10, Jesus says, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" So in that sense, the sense of efficacy, His atonement is limited in scope, and not for all.

Calvinists always claim their bible passages can beat up non-calvinist bible passages

No passage "beats up" on any other passage in God's Word, of course. As Isaiah and Peter say, "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass... (t)he grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever." But correct Calvinist understandings of these passages do debunk the incorrect understandings of non-Calvinists ~ also known as Arminians ~ yes. <smile>

Grace and peace.

 

[KUWN]

All you have done is to list a bunch of verses. You have not defeated those passages that take the opposite.

Well, right, because there are no passages that "take the opposite." Are you saying Scripture contradicts itself? Surely not...

no, what I am saying is that you are contradicting hundreds of Scripture. If God wants all people to be saved, how can his desire be thwarted. Is God unable to perform his will?

 

[Scott Downey]

Well, right, because there are no passages that "take the opposite." Are you saying Scripture contradicts itself? Surely not...

no, what I am saying is that you are contradicting hundreds of Scripture. If God wants all people to be saved, how can his desire be thwarted. Is God unable to perform his will?

4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God would rather people repent and believe than perish.
He also can not deny Himself, He has a righteous standard.
Christ fulfilled all the law and the prophets, and became a sacrifice for us for sin.

Acts 10:43
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”