When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[TribulationSigns]

My answer: It did not take place in 70 AD, because the temple that was destroyed in 70 AD was no more a "holy place" than a Hindu shrine. It will take place in a New Testament congregation in the end of time.​

Very good.

The abominations that are mentioned in Daniel 9:26-27 are associated with the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple, but the abomination of desolation Daniel mentioned standing in the holy place (which Jesus also mentioned quoting Daniel), is the anti-type of the abomination of desolation placed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the 2nd century BC that defiled the temple but did not result in the destruction of the temple or the city. The temple was cleansed afterward and reconsecrated to God.​

I disagree. Daniel 9:2-27 has nothing to do with Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his defile of Jewish Temple. Nope.

The New Testament Tabernacle of God cannot be destroyed, but it can be defiled:​

The New Testament tabernacle of God can be destroyed externally due to the abominations present within it, particularly among those who do not have the seal of God. This is referenced in Revelation 9:3-6. Those without the seal will be spiritually slain by God, leading to the total destruction of their city. The phrase "tenth part" signifies the fullness of whatever is being considered, as mentioned in Revelation 11:13-14. This represents the complete downfall of the New Testament congregation filled with unsealed individuals, similar to what God did with the Old Testament congregation that had people within it. For example, for the Old Testament congregaiton, Christ said:

Mat 23:37-38
(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Deja Vu! This time with the Olivet Discourse FOR the New Testament congregation. This is why Christ instructed His New Testament Elect (the ones whom God has sealed, Revelation 7:1-4) to come out of the church when they see the abomination of desolation within her and not enter back in ever again. Only "if" they have spiritual understanding to read what Christ actually talked about. It was not about some physical stones falling of the temple. It is about HIS PEOPLE of the congregation, most of whom are not truly saved, who were the falling stones of the Holy Place that Christ talked about! It is not what the Apostles (in the first verses of Olivet Discourse) or you thought Christ talked about! The first verses of Olivet Discourse is about the fall of Old Testament congregation if you understand that it were the people as the stone of the Old Testament temple, the body of Christ.

Therefore, in the New Testament, the stones being built are spiritually the Elect and the unsaved professed Christians. In the time of the end, it is the false prophets and christs with the spirit of antichrist who are responsible for the killing of the True Elect of God (Two Witnesses) by silence their truthful testimony. And the unsaved people of the congregation loved it so and start buying and sell the false doctrines that came out of the false prophets and christs (locusts of Revelation 9). And as a result, they agreed to give the authority of the church to THEM instead of Christ. It is all part of God's will as a judgment upon them. This is why God commanded us to come out of her to avoid her plagues. Selah!

This is what Matthew 24:15 is talking about, but it flies over their heads in unbelief in respect of far too many who post in these boards - because of their false doctrines or the false doctrines they believe and adhere to - and they will fail to notice it because they do not believe what Jesus and the apostles said about God's only Temple.​

I apologize, but I believe that Christ was not referring to Antiochus IV Epiphanes or the events of 70 AD regarding the temple. I understand that many people subscribe to these theories to support their doctrines. Ultimately, the Lord is the judge, and I am comfortable with that.

 

[Zao is life]

I am back from vacation in Bali!

Now my response to Zao as promised:


At the Cross.


Good.

Allow me to explain more about WHAT QUALIFIES as the "holy place" that many people here do not get it.

When I said that the congregation was the only Holy Place that qualifies is very simple. When we study scripture, we will find that there are only three things that God labels as the Holy Place where He dwells. They are:

#1. The Holy Temple: The Temple of God Himself
#2. The Holy Temple: The Temple of Believers
#3. The Holy Temple: The Temple that is God's External/Visible Congregation (The Lord's House)

Biblically speaking, there are no other holy places found anywhere. And certainly not where Christians are where they would have to flee. God dwells in all three of those Holy Temples, but in only one can/will/has He depart/ed from it. That is His external covenant congregation. It is the only one that qualifies to have an abomination stand, that will make it desolate.

We should let the Bible interpret itself, and do not go off half-cocked with extraneous beliefs, this prophesy can only be speaking about one of these three holy temples of God where abomination is to stand. So now we examine the scriptures carefully, within the pertinent context, in the light of the whole Bible, and our answer is right there. Not with preconceived ideas about temple in 70AD, but with open mindedness to what scripture actually says.

Mat 24:15-18
(15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
(16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
(17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
(18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Looking at these passages "OBJECTIVELY" and in their context, it is very plain that God is referring to a place called Judea, that those who are there are to flee "FROM", "TO" the mountains. Moreover, in Luke 21:21, we are not to enter again into Judaea for any reason. Right? So why are the Jews back in Jersualem we see today despite the 70AD theory?! LOL. The very context makes this absolutely clear. Second, we are further enlightened by Christ explaining that this is the prophesy of Daniel (Daniel 9:17-20), which again illustrates it is the prophecy of the NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH ABOMINATIONS prior to Second Coming, and not any other alleged holy place. SELAH! For example, the seventy weeks of Daniel 9. We also see that as He tells us of this abomination that stands in the Holy Place we are cautioned in instruction by God that this is a passage that we are not to take lightly, but to carefully understand what we read! Spiritual Discerned! For example, "let him that readeth understand."

Mar 13:14
(14) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Here the wording is that this abomination stands where it ought not. Now remember the only three possible holy places of God in the New Testament, according to scripture:

1.) God
2.) God's Elect person
3.) External or visible Congregation/Church.

And also remember, the unbelievers of the world are not a holy Temple of the Lord! Let's scratch off number one right away, because abomination cannot or never will stand in God! So we only have two holy places left where abomination can stand. In a Believer or in the Church. Now Abomination cannot stand in a believer because He is the Temple of God, and God "HIMSELF" dwells within him. Selah! Can God and Satan dwell in the same Holy Place, within our bodies? Of course not! A holy temple cannot be occupied by two rulers, both Satan and Christ. Scratch number two, abomination cannot stand within a believer. That's the whole point of a believer being a Holy place, it's because God dwells within us to make us a Holy Place. That leaves only the Holy Temple, which is the external covenant church. It is the only "Biblical" Holy place left wherein abomination can stand and that can be left desolate!! The holy temple of a believer cannot be left desolate, the Holy Temple Christ cannot be left desolate, only the Holy Temple, which is the church, can have abomination stand in it and be made desolate.

And low and behold, that is exactly what 2nd Thessalonians 2 illustrates to us in no uncertain terms. It is expressly stated the Holy Temple where the man of lawlessness takes a seat and is worshiped as God. We have our answer yet again! That's abomination of the highest order, and that will leave this Holy Temple desolate. Of that you can be 100 percent sure! The external church, the only holy Place that qualifies!

2Th 2:3-5
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Behold, he has told us, Jesus has told us, John has told us, but some people are just not listening. If the man of sin sitting in the Holy Temple of God ruling as God is not abomination that will leave it desolate, then I am a flying elephant!!!!!

Those who keep parroting that it's not the Church are dealing in wishful thinking, not in a sound exegesis of scriptures. I'm sorry to say it's a growing error that is warned of God. The great deception which is the false Christ. The false Church that shows itself as God, but is ruled by Satan.

So that’s what I mean when I declare that no other holy place qualifies to have abomination stand in it that "WILL" make it desolate. We have to be careful what we read, because often something sounds Biblical that is really not biblical at all. The fact is, this sign should be obvious to faithful Christians. Since "His house" is the only Holy Place of God, that God has ever brought to desolation. Who will make this Holy Place desolate? Read for yourself in Revelation:

Rev 17:16
(16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

God has put into their hearts (do you know who they are?) to do God's will to bring the judgment upon the whore (according to the authority of scripture). This woman of defilement and abominations is the unfaithful New Testament Church, from which we are commanded to depart from, to flee from, to come out of her, and NEVER enter back in for any reason or ever again (Luke 20:20), that we not be judged as she is being judged by God. Humm? Does this fit the bill for their 70AD so-called Jewish temple, they "THINK" is the holy place God at that time in Jersualem? Not at all!

I fully agree with what you are saying about the New Testament Temple of God being made desolate because of it being defiled by an abomination of desolation. I make that connection between Matthew 24:15 and 2 Thess 2:4 myself, and a few people who post here are fully aware of this - the one other person here who agrees with me about that + the many who don't agree.

The 10 kings attacking the harlot came to my mind as I was reading what you were saying because you were using the word "desolate", and then you wrote it.​

God has put into their hearts (do you know who they are?)

No. I have no idea who they are. I would be pleased if you share what you've seen about them.
​

What I have noticed that the kings of the earth who commit adultery with the harlot are seen weeping and wailing over her demise at the hand of the 10 kings (Rev 18:9-10);

and I've noticed also that Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth (Rev 1:5), but the harlot also reigns over the kings of the earth (Rev.17:18).
​

So it seems to me that the kings of the earth are talking about faithful saints ("the kings of the earth ruled by Christ) and unfaithful saints (the kings of the earth whom the harlot reigns over).

But I have no idea as to the identity of the ten kings. It would be good to hear what you believe about them.

 

[Zao is life]

Very good.


I disagree. Daniel 9:2-27 has nothing to do with Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his defile of Jewish Temple. Nope.


The New Testament tabernacle of God can be destroyed externally due to the abominations present within it, particularly among those who do not have the seal of God. This is referenced in Revelation 9:3-6. Those without the seal will be spiritually slain by God, leading to the total destruction of their city. The phrase "tenth part" signifies the fullness of whatever is being considered, as mentioned in Revelation 11:13-14. This represents the complete downfall of the New Testament congregation filled with unsealed individuals, similar to what God did with the Old Testament congregation that had people within it. For example, for the Old Testament congregaiton, Christ said:

Mat 23:37-38
(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Deja Vu! This time with the Olivet Discourse FOR the New Testament congregation. This is why Christ instructed His New Testament Elect (the ones whom God has sealed, Revelation 7:1-4) to come out of the church when they see the abomination of desolation within her and not enter back in ever again. Only "if" they have spiritual understanding to read what Christ actually talked about. It was not about some physical stones falling of the temple. It is about HIS PEOPLE of the congregation, most of whom are not truly saved, who were the falling stones of the Holy Place that Christ talked about! It is not what the Apostles (in the first verses of Olivet Discourse) or you thought Christ talked about! The first verses of Olivet Discourse is about the fall of Old Testament congregation if you understand that it were the people as the stone of the Old Testament temple, the body of Christ.

So I believe - and have said in these boards many times - that (IMO) even though Jesus was referring to the O.T temple stones when He stood on the Temple Mount, He was talking about the N.T Temple stones on the Mount of Olives.

I don't actually agree with you that (when He was still) standing on the Temple Mount just after he told the Pharisees that their house is left to them desolate, and the disciples having pointed out the magnificence of the O.T temple structure, Jesus was talking to them about the living stones of the N.T Temple when He said that not one stone will be left upon another.

In New Testament terms that would mean that even the faithful will not be left standing. But the gist of what you are saying about Jesus not talking about the physical temple in Jerusalem in Mat 24:15, and the spiritual meaning behind what you are saying about it, I'm 100% in agreement with.

Therefore, in the New Testament, the stones being built are spiritually the Elect and the unsaved professed Christians.

I fully agree. The living stones of the Temple of God.

In the time of the end, it is the false prophets and christs with the spirit of antichrist who are responsible for the killing of the True Elect of God (Two Witnesses) by silence their truthful testimony.

Jesus did say that those who fall away will hate the others and betray the others, and the blood of the saints is found in the harlot, so again I agree with the gist of what you are saying but I won't speculate about the details of how it will unfold or play itself out.

And the unsaved people of the congregation loved it so and start buying and sell the false doctrines that came out of the false prophets and christs (locusts of Revelation 9).

I find the link you are making between the harlot's doctrines and the locusts very interesting, but I have no idea what the locusts represent, so I'm cautious but open-minded about what you say above.

And as a result, they agreed to give the authority of the church to THEM instead of Christ. It is all part of God's will as a judgment upon them. This is why God commanded us to come out of her to avoid her plagues. Selah!

Yes, they are going to commit apostasy just like the Jews had done in the days of Antiochus IV - only a handful of Jews remained faithful and they supported the Maccabees. The rest were only too pleased to take on the religious practices of the Greeks and to offer sacrifices to idols in the temple.

I apologize, but I believe that Christ was not referring to Antiochus IV Epiphanes or the events of 70 AD regarding the temple. I understand that many people subscribe to these theories to support their doctrines. Ultimately, the Lord is the judge, and I am comfortable with that.

OK. Please understand that I see the abomination of desolation of Antiochus - and the apostasy of the Jews of the time - only as the type, not as a repeat of anything or "going back to" what already took place, but I see it as another round of apostasy on the part of God's chosen (the Christians, this time), idolatry, spiritual harlotry and an abomination of desolation in the holy place, but this time taking place in the N.T temple before the return of Christ.

But I don't expect you to agree with me just because I see things that way.

 

[claninja]

The similarities between these passages are obvious, so it's ludicrous to suggest that 2 Peter should not be part of canon.

Similarities are not sole reason for inclusion.

Its inclusion was heavily debated, even more so than revelation. Its inclusion was disputed up until the fourth century. so it’s not ludicrous in that sense.

Nonsense. They both compared the flood to His coming when heaven and earth will pass away which has not yet occurred.

As to the olivet discourse

Contextually, it answers 2 questions - the destruction of the temple, the sign of the coming/end of the age. Linguistically, genea is overwhelmingly understood as generation according to concordances, lexicons, and biblical commentaries. Grammatically, “all these things” are inclusive of all previous antecedents, as there are no distinct or clear large gap transitionary clauses between events.

So since contextually, linguistically, and grammatically, it would include the first century audience - my negotiation then for vs 35, 38-39 is the nature of it - hyperbolic/apocalyptic/idiomatic expressions and comparisons. And so i don't think 2 Peter 3 is going beyond that, if 2 peter is not a forgery. If its a 2nd century forgery, then of course it goes beyond what is taught in the olivet discourse.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Similarities are not sole reason for inclusion.

Its inclusion was heavily debated, even more so than revelation. Its inclusion was disputed up until the fourth century. so it’s not ludicrous in that sense.

I say it's ludicrous and you can't make me think otherwise.

As to the olivet discourse

Contextually, it answers 2 questions - the destruction of the temple, the sign of the coming/end of the age. Linguistically, genea is overwhelmingly understood as generation according to concordances, lexicons, and biblical commentaries. Grammatically, “all these things” are inclusive of all previous antecedents, as there are no distinct or clear large gap transitionary clauses between events.

So since contextually, linguistically, and grammatically, it would include the first century audience - my negotiation then for vs 35, 38-39 is the nature of it - hyperbolic/apocalyptic/idiomatic expressions and comparisons. And so i don't think 2 Peter 3 is going beyond that, if 2 peter is not a forgery. If its a 2nd century forgery, then of course it goes beyond what is taught in the olivet discourse.

LOL. 2nd Peter is not a forgery. Only those who can't accept what it clearly teaches try to claim that.

 

[claninja]

I say it's ludicrous and you can't make me think otherwise.

It’s a historical fact, whether you personally find it ludicrous or not.

LOL. 2nd Peter is not a forgery. Only those who can't accept what it clearly teaches try to claim that.

I said IF

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It’s a historical fact, whether you personally find it ludicrous or not.

Right. I'm not denying that it was debated whether it should be canon or not (you can see who won the debate). I believe it is ludicrous that it even came to that. And you can't tell me to think otherwise about it.

I said IF

I think it's ludicrous to even bring up that possibility. That you bring that up at all tells me that you think it might be true that it was a forgery. So, how about you clear that up right now and tell me whether you think 2 Peter was a forgery or not? Yes or no?

 

[TribulationSigns]

I fully agree with what you are saying about the New Testament Temple of God being made desolate because of it being defiled by an abomination of desolation. I make that connection between Matthew 24:15 and 2 Thess 2:4 myself, and a few people who post here are fully aware of this - the one other person here who agrees with me about that + the many who don't agree.​

Okay. Good.

The 10 kings attacking the harlot came to my mind as I was reading what you were saying because you were using the word "desolate", and then you wrote it. No. I have no idea who they are. I would be pleased if you share what you've seen about them.​

Yes, I do know who they are.

Rev 17:12-13

(12) And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
(13) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

To be clear, God did NOT talk about ten literal human kings or ten physical countries here! The horns, in Scripture, signifies power. And the number ten signifies fullness of whatever is in view. Whose power is it? Beast! It is talking about the spirit of Satan to rule in man in the fullness of this power.
Satan did this before the Cross, but Christ defeated Satan, bind him in bottomless pit so that he did not have the power to rule (or deceive) until Christ first finish building His Church through the testimony of His Two Witnesses (Christians). It is clear that the 10 kings did not exist in the time of the writing, they arise in the later days just before the end of time. What this means is that the 10 kings of the beast have no kingdom yet because the Elect were the one running the church "as long as' they have Christ as authority in the midst. But once God has finish sealed all Elect, the testimony of Two Witnesses for Salvation is over, and the beast finally comes out of the bottomless pit. He will have the power restored to rule within God's congregation. The kings are men, especially the false prophets and christs, ruling (sit) in the temple of God with the power of Satan. This is why they receive power from Satan to overcome and to kill Two Witnesses. In other words, they have silence Two Witnesses' testimony and do not bother to bury them (meaning, they do not care or mourn about the truth anymore, so they can rejoice by exchanging each other the false doctrines (gifts) without any resistance from True Christians. Therefore, the spirit of S atan to rule through men in the cHurch with the fullness of His power but only for a short season, just right before Lord's Second Coming.
When Satan is loosened (by God because he decides when all Elect are secured), he musters this army of false prophets and christs (hint hint: Gog and Magog!) and gives them this power of antichrist, unto judgment. Don't forget that God ALWAYS brought judgment on HIS PEOPLE FIRST! This is why this judgment of the church must take place BEFORE the Second Coming! So no need to look for world events to fulfill Revelation 17 or 18 in Rome, or Babylon in Iraq, or even America. Babylon the Great is God's unfaithful congregation all over the world where the Elect are coming out to avoid her plagues of Judgment. Christians who think the Church can never be judged are not reading Scripture carefully. Or not seeing what they are reading. One or the other.

Again... as for the imagery symbols, the number 10 in scripture signifies the fullness of whatever is in view, the horns in scripture signify power, and that these horns are kings signify they rule. And so the 10 Horns/kings will be given full Power/to Rule in the Church to fulfill God's will against rebellion. But their power or influence and authority are from the beast, not God. They rule in the Churches by the spirit of Antichrist, not Christ. This is how the abomination of desolation is set up IN THE CHURCH! But ultimately we read that it is God who has sent them as judgment. As He has done to His congregation many times before.

Ezekiel 9:6

(9) Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

So it will be when the Church is judged. Those with the mark of God's name spiritually written in their foreheads will be spared, but all people within the congregation WITHOUT THE SEAL OF GOD shall be as Babylon and made desolate. Just like Christ did to the Jews of the Old Testament Congregation at the Cross.

 

[TribulationSigns]

What I have noticed that the kings of the earth who commit adultery with the harlot are seen weeping and wailing over her demise at the hand of the 10 kings (Rev 18:9-10);

and I've noticed also that Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth (Rev 1:5), but the harlot also reigns over the kings of the earth (Rev.17:18).
​

So it seems to me that the kings of the earth are talking about faithful saints ("the kings of the earth ruled by Christ) and unfaithful saints (the kings of the earth whom the harlot reigns over).

Correct. The kings of the Earth (as well as Merchants of the Earth) are the people of the Congregation. Some are Elect of God. Some are professed believers of Satan. But in Revelation 17:18, Babylon rules over BOTH kings of the Earth. Yes, we all were drunk with her. How? Since we all were in the churches, it is her will that this cup is filld with vile and filthy doctrines to make the kings of the Earth stagger in spiritual drunkenness. What it means that some of us did get involved with speaking in tongues, prosperity gospel, supporting divorce and remarriage, or even supporting homosexuals under the guise of love, believe in premillennialism, etc. Look at the example of ten virgins. Both the wise (those with spirit of Christ) and foolish (those without spirit of Christ) BOTH SLEPT until they hard the midnight cry from Christ that he is coming. So yes, we all were guilty of Church's abominations. But in God's grace and because we are already sealed, he has called us to come OUT of the church to avoid the plague judgment that is poured on the unfaithful ones. So, we Elect, as the kings of the Earth under Christ came out of church, ,and mourn for who she once was as we witness the judgment on her. How? We can see the false prophets and christs getting in and selling false doctrine, adding wordly music, support homosecxual, etc. etc. God is using this as a judgment upon them so that those who have not yet sealed will NOT BE ABLE TO FIND SALVATION at this time because the death (in christ) will not be found anymore or have flee from them, Revelation 9:6.
So yes you are right, the kings of the Earth are people of God's congregation. They are made kings and priest in his Kingdom. They build the church together but many are called few are chosen.

But I have no idea as to the identity of the ten kings. It would be good to hear what you believe about them.

It is the fullness of power that Satan receive and gave this to the false prophets and christs, and in return, he gets to rule the kingdom (of God) through them.
Rev 17:12-13
(12) And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
(13) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Rev 17:16-18
(16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
(17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
(18) And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The false prophets and christs did not have the kingdom of God for the past 2,000 years of Church building until they can rule it by giving the kingdom to the Beast. It is their FALSE DOCTRINES and LYINIG SIGNS AND WONDERS are what make church desolate, made her spiritually naked, and burn with fire of God's judgment. God allow the false prophets and christs to do evil work to deceive their unfaithful people of the congregaiton AS A JUDGMENT. This is why God agreed to allow Satan to come into and rule there as if he is God (through false prophets and christs). This is what Revealtion 11:2 talked about:

Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The Temple of God is his body, the altar the means of Grace, and the truly saved are those who truly worship therein, and so are measured of God as his true body. On the other hand, the court is the peripheral or outer boundary of the Temple, where the unsaved fellowship, thinking they are part of the body, but not really part of the true holy temple measured in Christ Jesus. They are professed Christians subject to judgment.

Honestly, I believe the judgment of God is taking place in the churches today based don't their spiritual conditions. Here is one video to give you an idea as why we need to come out (avoid) these churches where the false prophets and christ (aka locusts of the bottomless pit) who attacks those men women and children without seal of God with their false doctrines and "entertainments" These are abominations that cause the church to desolate! They are growing fast! It is a sign that Christ's coming is near!

Church is having Super Bowl party where they kick the Bible like a football.

 

[Douggg]

@Spritual Israelite

You claim that the Jews will not build a temple on the temple mount that the Antichrist will not make desolate from the worship and praise of the One True God.

So....

Where will Satan be standing when Revelation 20:1-3 takes place ?

Where will the beast-king and the false prophet be when Revelation 19:20 takes place?

What spot will Jesus return to when Revelation 19:19-21 takes place ?

 

[claninja]

Right. I'm not denying that it was debated whether it should be canon or not (you can see who won the debate). I believe it is ludicrous that it even came to that. And you can't tell me to think otherwise about it.

Right. I'm not denying that it was debated whether it should be canon or not (you can see who won the debate). I believe it is ludicrous that it even came to that. And you can't tell me to think otherwise about it.


I think it's ludicrous to even bring up that possibility. That you bring that up at all tells me that you think it might be true that it was a forgery. So, how about you clear that up right now and tell me whether you think 2 Peter was a forgery or not? Yes or no?

I think there is decent evidence for both sides, although the majority of modern scholarship, including even some Christian scholars, hold that 2 peter was most likely pseudography.

2 Peter was not officially included into cannon until the 4th century, so for several hundreds years after Christ, not everyone used it. The Assyrian church of the east still doesn’t recognize it today.

that being said, my understanding of eschatological events doesn’t hinge on 2 peter. It hinges on the olivet discourse. IF 2 Peter is legit, it doesn’t go beyond the olivet discourse. IF it’s just a 2nd century forgery, doesn’t really matter, as that is not the basis for my eschatological view.

 

[Timtofly]

This proves nothing except that you assume what is described in Revelation 20 chronologically follows what is described in Revelation 19.

This point proves nothing. You assume Revelation 20 does not chronologically follow 19. Then you go to a chapter that every one knows is not chronological, at least not when it comes to binding Satan. Is Satan bound when the False Prophet and beast are cast into the Lake of Fire, or not?

What do we know and what are we to assume from the result of the battle of Armageddon? Are you saying the beast and false prophet cannot be deceived until after Satan is loosed? They are serving God, and then all of a sudden, they change their minds?

 

[Timtofly]

Josephus is the primary source on that and he believed the abomination of desolation related to the Roman armies committing abominations at the temple in the years before it was destroyed.

Josephus did not believe such nonsense. You are putting thoughts into the mind of a first century human, that he never wrote down.

Those thoughts may have been in the footnotes of an English translation from 20th century interpretation of Josephus. Certainly many believe that today.

The Temple was clearly off limits to the Roman soldiers, and they never entered the Temple prior to the destruction of the building by fire. Herod built the Roman Fortress that was part of the Temple complex, and no one fled at any time, because the Roman armies were allowed to use that Fortress from the time it was built.

The only abomination Josephus really talked about was when Pilate was made Governor, and he set up his ensigns in the Temple Complex, and was told to remove them, which he then complied to their demands. Titus wanted to use the Temple for his worship just like Antiochus Epiphanes did, but the Temple was destroyed.

Roman armies are not the abomination. Using the Temple for the worship of false gods is and always has been the abomination. Even the Jews could and did set up abominations in the Temple. They were not human beings, but objects of idolatry. You can read in Scripture how abominations can be seen in the Temple. None of them mention Roman soldiers, nor humans. Josephus never wrote one word that Roman soldiers set up nor desecrated the Temple with an abomination.

Unless you quote Josephus, you are spreading hearsay. And Pilate was the only incident even close to what Jesus said, and that happened before the Olivet Discourse, so the only written example (of Josephus) was prior to the prophecy even being given.

Here is the error. You are equating the Roman armies approaching in 66AD to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Two different aspects of the answers Jesus gave.

Matthew 24:15-16

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

Luke 21:20-21

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto."

Your interpretation claims these are the exact same speeches from the perspective of two humans quoting the exact same thought with different words: armies = abomination. That is just simply common sense wrong.

One set is spoken publicly to all that day in the Temple. One set is spoken in private to believers on the mount of Olives. You are throwing context out the window, and accepting pop theology.

Josephus wrote that armies approached Jerusalem in 66AD, but unrest happened in Rome, and the destruction was nigh, within 3.5 years. Josephus also wrote that Jerusalem was besieged in 70AD. Josephus said after Passover, no one was allowed in nor out of Jerusalem. Within months the lower walls had been breached and much of the city taken. The Temple complex itself took longer. Jesus warned them to not enter while conflict was ongoing, and many fled in 66AD, and never returned, because they believed Jerusalem would be destroyed. Especially leaving the whole area, because all the walled cities were destroyed, over the next 3.5 years.

The literal conclusion from history and Josephus was that no one was able to flee after Passover of 70AD. No one fled because of abominations. The abomination part was never fulfilled. Jesus told them they should not enter Jerusalem after 66AD. Jesus told them to flee to the mountains, which by interpretation meant they needed to avoid all walled cities for 42 months, as all would be destroyed and in conflict for 42 months, even though there was a brief peace after the armies had gathered in 66AD. The truth of history was that the Romans still hunted down and destroyed those who fled and thought their walls could protect them.

The only logical conclusion why you all want the abomination part to already be fulfilled is that there has not been a Temple to fulfill the prophecy. For a thousand years, there was not even a Jerusalem to fulfill the prophecy post 70AD. The partial preterist view denies any future Temple, so for a lack of faith in Scripture, deny an Abomination to ever happen in the future, thus preterist can only default to the erroneous assumption that the Roman armies are the Abomination, contradicting Scripture, and the entire concept of the Temple throughout history starting in Exodus with the tabernacle.

And before you start accusing me of popular theology that states people will build a new Temple, I don't accept that either. No one is going to set up a scenario to force a fulfilled prophecy.

If, and only if that prophecy is ever fulfilled, it will be in a Temple set up by Jesus Christ, Himself. The lack of faith is what is concerning about what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus said all the angels will be on the earth several times. Jesus said He would be on the earth in several Scriptures. Jesus said He would sit on His glorious throne, in what is assumed, His own Temple. But you deny that interpretation, because you cannot allow anything to happen on a post Second Coming earth. You are as mixed up on the chronological order of Revelation as most Premillennialists.

 

[Timtofly]

Oh, so it's just the good angels who are up there floating in space?

In Genesis 1 the firmament was a fixed place. What does floating have to do with Genesis 1? All sons of God are currently in the firmament somewhere. So not just "angels floating up there", as you put it.

 

[KUWN]

When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?​

The temple ceased being the holy place for the Jews in BC 586 when it was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. The Times of the Gentiles began in BC 606.

It will once again be a holy place for the Jews during the first half of the Tribulation, but this wont be the 2nd Temple.

 

[CTK]

Was the Temple the ceremonial services, the sacrifices, the priestly functions, and even the first 4 of the 7 festivals fulfilled by the Messiah at His first coming? They were a shadown / type of the coming Messiah who would fulfill them all. He became our sacrificial Lamb of God, the High priest, the Temple and He has done away with each of them that were given to His people on Mt. Sinai. The Temple is no longer needed - it has fulfilled its earthly mission. Now, we worship directly to God - no Temple and He will send His Holy Spirit to live within us - everything now has moved from the external to the internal - should you accept Him and the cross. Otherwise, you will be looking for that physical temple to be restored, those animal sacrifices that would be necessazry to remove sin on a temporary basis according to the Levitical laws. They have all been done away with and fulfilled by Jesus. This can be easily seem (IMO) in Daniel - especially, chapter 9.


If you consider the 6 requirments the Lord fulfilled in 9:24, it should be clear that the Messiah fulfilled each and everyone of them before He returned to His Father. The fact that the physical Temple was destroyed 40 years later does not mean it was of value to anyone (other than to the Jews who rejected the Messiah), but they still do not accept Him and that is immaterial to what Jesus fulfilled. Regarding the Temple, it became a "common" structure at the cross - the veil was torn in two... no longer would man need to go to any part of the Temple to worship - not the outer court, the Holy place or the Holy of Holies....now we look to Jesus who fulfilled them all for us.

The book of Daniel has brilliantly given us the identities of everything we need to understand His plan of restoration and salvation for not only the Jews as they returned to Jerusalem, but for all of mankind after they rejected Him - again, this was always His plan to go to the cross. But no one will properly interpret Daniel by looking within our history books to find those events and actors that might be referring to those mentioned in Daniel. Daniel is not written to be a retelling for recounting of our historical events. God has given us His blueprint in chapter 2 and there is not one prophetic vrerse that will be interpreted in all of Daniel that does not fit within the 4 and only 4 kingdoms identified in chapter 2, and within the 3 time periods in Daniel - most of which have taken place by the end of His first coming. The 3rd time period covers the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy - 3.5 years after the cross to His return. This period will include the establishment of His church, the taking over His church by the little horn, the corruption of His Word and Gospel by this entity and its continuation to claim divinity and power to save where only God has been given that ability.

 

[Zao is life]

I disagree. Daniel 9:2-27 has nothing to do with Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his defile of Jewish Temple. Nope.

I never spoke about Daniel 9:26-27. You will not find Daniel's prophesies concerning Antiochus IV in Daniel 9:26-27 because Daniel 9:26-27 is associated with the destruction of both city and temple and with the abominations that are associated with that period.

But the prophecies in Daniel which talk about the cleansing of the temple after an abomination of desolation was placed in the holy place are associated neither with the destruction of the temple or of the city. They are talking about Antiochus IV Epiphanes and THEY are the biblical type of Matthew 24:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

I won't tell you what the references are in Daniel (though I do know) because I'd prefer you to look for them yourself - because they are talking about the cleansing of the sanctuary following the abomination of desolation paced in the holy place (unlike Daniel 9:26-27).

 

[Ronald D Milam]

When Christ died and rose? Or in 70 AD when it was fully destroyed? There can only be one answer here.

God "rent the temple" meaning He left, so how can the Temple be Holy with no holy God living there?

Jesus in Matt. 24 like Daniel was speaking about the temple on earth at the time of the 70th week end times, we know its END TIMES by reading Daniel 12, he specifically states this in Dan. 12:1-2 then talks about the 1260 (AC) lasting for 1260 days of troubles for Israel (Jacob's Troubles) until ALL THESE WONDERS END, well we now know that meant via Jesus' 2nd Coming don't we? The 1290 is the AoD, but t can not be the AC because he only comes on the scene as the Beast 30 days later, it can only be the False Prophet, because we know Rev. 13 says he gets the people to make and worship an Image of the Beast. YES each number is that many days until Jesus ends all these WONDERS/THINGS. The 1335 is KEY HERE.

What you say here is correct, how is it the holy place? But no one follows this point to its ultimate logical conclusion, for this to happen, the temple has to be cleansed, and this CAN NOT be done until Israel accepts their Messiah, and atones for their sins. Remember, Jesus says when he returns the people of Israel will say "Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord". So we know Israel repents before the 2nd coming, but it also has to be BEFORE the Temple is DEFILED..........think now...........how can a DEFILED temple be DEFILED again? So your thought process is correct, it just seems you do not follow this unto its logical conclusions. The Reason the 1290 AoD can DEFILE the temple is because it has already been CLEANSED.

How so? The 1335 Blessing happens 1335 days before Jesus shows up to end all these wonders, at the 2nd coming. The 1335 are the Two-witnesses, we know they die BEFORE the Beast dies at the 7th Vial because they die at the 2nd Woe. The only reason both the Beast and Two-witnesses ate given 1260 day Ordained Offices by God is so we can Juxtapose Their Timelines against each other. What does Malachi 4:5-6 say? That God will send Elijah back BEFORE the Dreadful Day of the Lord (1260) comes. Thus it now makes sense that the Two-witnesses are the 1335, and that Israel repents before the 1290, thus they can only understand to flee Judea because they have repented, and heard this from the Two-witnesses and read Matt. 24:15-21, else why would they flee? So, the Two-witnesses (Elijah and Moses IMHO) show up and turn Israel (1/3 repents, 2/3 refuse and will die) back unto God. Zech. 13:8-9 matches the above, we see the 1/3 repents then in the very next verse we see in Zech. 14:1 that the DOTL arrives, then in vs. 2 Jerusalem is conquered.

Here is why all this matters immensely, people get Dan. 9:24-27 all wrong, the assume the AC stands in the temple and defiles it, but if one reads vs. 27 it clearly says HE CAUSES the AoD, but we know via understanding the all important TIMELINES, that the Anti-Christ only conquers Jerusalem and Israel at the 1260 to become The Beast, the 1290 AoD happens at the hands of the False Prophet a Political/Religious Beast. He will be a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason (real name Yeshua) under Antiochus Epiphanes (AE4). He bribed AE4 to be named the High Priest having his pious High Priest brother Onias III killed. He then welcomed AE4 into the temple to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus, and he then mandates that all Jews become Hellenists (take on Greek culture and serve their gods) or else. This led to the Maccabean War. So, God gave us both Archetypes who lived ad ruled together, WELL...........Of course He would give us that in TYPE.

So, now understanding Israel REPENTS 45 days before the 1290 AoD and 75 days before the 1260 DOTL, we can now see why the Temple was CLEANSED, from the 1335 to the 1290, a 45 day period, the 1/3 Jews or 5 million Jews who repent, no doubt go to the temple to worship their God like modern day Christians would via singing and praising God, thus angers this "High Priest who sees the temple as his temple" and Orthodox Jews to not hate Christians at all, but they do HATE Jews who turn unto Christ Jesus. Thus he gets the OK from afar (E.U. President) to STOP Jesus Worshiping. Now does HE TAKES AWAY THE SACRICE make more sense? How could TAKING AWAY an already defiled Meat Sacrifice in an already DEFILED TEMPLE be an AoD? It could not be, but the False Prophet taking away Jesus worship by forbidding it in "his temple" and then PLACING the Rev. 13 IMAGE (the E.U. President) up in the temple, which now CAN and WILL DEFILE the CLEANSED TEMPLE.

So, why is this Jewish High Priest False Prophet in league with a Gentile E.U. President/King? Because the Covenant (AGREEMENT) in Dan. 9:27 is not what most think, a PEACE DEAL. its really just this, Israel JOINS the E.U. This makes God's anger boil, thus kicks of both the Pre Trib. Rapture and the 70th week events.

 

[Davidpt]

God "rent the temple" meaning He left, so how can the Temple be Holy with no holy God living there?

Jesus in Matt. 24 like Daniel was speaking about the temple on earth at the time of the 70th week end times, we know its END TIMES by reading Daniel 12, he specifically states this in Dan. 12:1-2 then talks about the 1260 (AC) lasting for 1260 days of troubles for Israel (Jacob's Troubles) until ALL THESE WONDERS END, well we now know that meant via Jesus' 2nd Coming don't we? The 1290 is the AoD, but t can not be the AC because he only comes on the scene as the Beast 30 days later, it can only be the False Prophet, because we know Rev. 13 says he gets the people to make and worship an Image of the Beast. YES each number is that many days until Jesus ends all these WONDERS/THINGS. The 1335 is KEY HERE.

What you say here is correct, how is it the holy place? But no one follows this point to its ultimate logical conclusion, for this to happen, the temple has to be cleansed, and this CAN NOT be done until Israel accepts their Messiah, and atones for their sins. Remember, Jesus says when he returns the people of Israel will say "Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord". So we know Israel repents before the 2nd coming, but it also has to be BEFORE the Temple is DEFILED..........think now...........how can a DEFILED temple be DEFILED again? So your thought process is correct, it just seems you do not follow this unto its logical conclusions. The Reason the 1290 AoD can DEFILE the temple is because it has already been CLEANSED.

How so? The 1335 Blessing happens 1335 days before Jesus shows up to end all these wonders, at the 2nd coming. The 1335 are the Two-witnesses, we know they die BEFORE the Beast dies at the 7th Vial because they die at the 2nd Woe. The only reason both the Beast and Two-witnesses ate given 1260 day Ordained Offices by God is so we can Juxtapose Their Timelines against each other. What does Malachi 4:5-6 say? That God will send Elijah back BEFORE the Dreadful Day of the Lord (1260) comes. Thus it now makes sense that the Two-witnesses are the 1335, and that Israel repents before the 1290, thus they can only understand to flee Judea because they have repented, and heard this from the Two-witnesses and read Matt. 24:15-21, else why would they flee? So, the Two-witnesses (Elijah and Moses IMHO) show up and turn Israel (1/3 repents, 2/3 refuse and will die) back unto God. Zech. 13:8-9 matches the above, we see the 1/3 repents then in the very next verse we see in Zech. 14:1 that the DOTL arrives, then in vs. 2 Jerusalem is conquered.

Here is why all this matters immensely, people get Dan. 9:24-27 all wrong, the assume the AC stands in the temple and defiles it, but if one reads vs. 27 it clearly says HE CAUSES the AoD, but we know via understanding the all important TIMELINES, that the Anti-Christ only conquers Jerusalem and Israel at the 1260 to become The Beast, the 1290 AoD happens at the hands of the False Prophet a Political/Religious Beast. He will be a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason (real name Yeshua) under Antiochus Epiphanes (AE4). He bribed AE4 to be named the High Priest having his pious High Priest brother Onias III killed. He then welcomed AE4 into the temple to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus, and he then mandates that all Jews become Hellenists (take on Greek culture and serve their gods) or else. This led to the Maccabean War. So, God gave us both Archetypes who lived ad ruled together, WELL...........Of course He would give us that in TYPE.

So, now understanding Israel REPENTS 45 days before the 1290 AoD and 75 days before the 1260 DOTL, we can now see why the Temple was CLEANSED, from the 1335 to the 1290, a 45 day period, the 1/3 Jews or 5 million Jews who repent, no doubt go to the temple to worship their God like modern day Christians would via singing and praising God, thus angers this "High Priest who sees the temple as his temple" and Orthodox Jews to not hate Christians at all, but they do HATE Jews who turn unto Christ Jesus. Thus he gets the OK from afar (E.U. President) to STOP Jesus Worshiping. Now does HE TAKES AWAY THE SACRICE make more sense? How could TAKING AWAY an already defiled Meat Sacrifice in an already DEFILED TEMPLE be an AoD? It could not be, but the False Prophet taking away Jesus worship by forbidding it in "his temple" and then PLACING the Rev. 13 IMAGE (the E.U. President) up in the temple, which now CAN and WILL DEFILE the CLEANSED TEMPLE.

So, why is this Jewish High Priest False Prophet in league with a Gentile E.U. President/King? Because the Covenant (AGREEMENT) in Dan. 9:27 is not what most think, a PEACE DEAL. its really just this, Israel JOINS the E.U. This makes God's anger boil, thus kicks of both the Pre Trib. Rapture and the 70th week events.

For example, unlike some around here that apply the 2300 days recorded in Daniel 8 to that of the days of A4E, I don't. I think it is connected with this subject in the OP. Except like some who might even agree with me that it is connected, I do not take it to be involving a literal brick and mortar temple, though. I take it to be involving the cleansing of the temple meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, except I don't take that to be meaning a literal brick and mortar temple.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

For example, unlike some around here that apply the 2300 days recorded in Daniel 8 to that of the days of A4E, I don't. I think it is connected with this subject in the OP. Except like some who might even agree with me that it is connected, I do not take it to be involving a literal brick and mortar temple, though. I take it to be involving the cleansing of the temple meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, except I don't take that to be meaning a literal brick and mortar temple.

There will be a temple, but after Israel repents they will be worshiping Jesus until an edict is put forth forbidding Jesus worship. The 2300 days is really 2300 Evening and Morning Sacrifices or 1150 days, it is END TIMES.