Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
You don't seem to know what a 'begging the question' means. There's no question mark in my previous post.
Context - Paul hopes that the church WON'T be like Eve. That's not a type. That's not even a comparison.
Mary as New Eve
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LOL! Buddy...
The "begging the question" fallacy, also known as circular reasoning, occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, rather than providing independent evidence for it. It essentially restates the conclusion in different words, rather than proving it. This fallacy is also referred to as "petitio principii" in Latin
No question mark is needed to be guilty of "begging the question".
Right, and, as I stated, to you, all of these things are just "coincidences" :
1. Christ is the antitype to Adam (Ro 5; 1 Co 15)
2. Adam's bride, Eve, was his own body; Christ's bride, the Church, is His own body.
3. Paul compares the Church to Eve (whether negatively or positively is irrelevant), and NEVER Mary to Eve (actually, not a single writer of the NT does).
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
You don't seem to be arguing honestly. All I did was point out a simile'. In what way is that begging the question? It isn't.
Right, this is the crux of my argument - Adam is NOT a type of Christ.
The rest of your argument falls apart if Adam isn't a type of Christ.
Yes, it is : you already disagree with me, and, to try to prove you're right, you simply emptily assert, "It's a simile"--you address nothing, you simply assert your disagreement as if it is obviously true.
You haven't read the Bible on your own, and, now, you even ignored the references I gave you.
Let me help you out by typing it for you now.
Romans 5
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
1 Corinthians 15
45So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
So, you have no argument.
Your argument, which was based on your abject ignorance, just fell apart.
You didn't know what "begging the question" was ("I didn't ask a question!"), but you positioned yourself as if you were knowledgeable on it, then you, with zero basis, proceeded to dismiss Scripture. You know nothing about the subject, yet you speak on it as if you are in the know. So, aren't you being dishonest, not me?
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Yes our spiritual life comes through Jesus and Jesus came through her to us. Our salvation comes through her not from her. You people lose all ability to think rationally when it comes to Mary.
No I don't agree. Mary is declared full of grace or highly favored there are many interpretations. Mary is shown as an intercessor for the needs of others. The idea of Mary as the new eve is not essential to Marian doctrine.
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Who is YOU PEOPLE?
And why do you separate yourself from other Christians,
thus heaping criticism on yourself??
Not all Catholic doctrine that is practiced today was upheld by the ECFs.
If a doctrine is not CLEARLY biblical it must be called out...no matter the denomination.
I don't separate myself from other Christians. I am unable to calculate how many times non Catholic "Christians" have told me I'm not a Christian thus heaping criticism on themselves. It's far from a one way street
Like sola scriptura and sola fire and osas should be called out. I couldn't agree more
You are when you use the expression YOU PEOPLE.
It also makes others stop listening to what you say.
It's a bad practice.
I agree. Those Christians are very ignorant and it shouldn't bother you so much.
I've been told I need salvation due to my theological beliefs.
Protestantism has its problems, just like Catholicism does.
No denomination is perfect....
I'd say Catholicism is fundamentally correct - but we can't say it's perfect.
Sola Scripture doesn't work.
Sola Fide doesn't work.
OSAS doesn't work.
And, none of the three are found in the NT.
So, what to do?
This is where the reformation has brought Christianity.
But we must also acknowledge that it was necessary to make some changes AT THAT TIME.
I don't know where we go from here.
The CC is having big problems here in Europe and I'm personally aware of them by being very involved with the CC.
I see all this division as being very harmful.
New Jerusalem....is depicted in scripture both as a bride and as mother of the church. The church gives birth to "children" begotten of God through evangelizing and witnessing.
Gal 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Rev 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
A mother has a husband/groom who is the father of her children. She is depicted as a pure virgin bride because she is not going after other lovers/idols. And she has been purified of her previous uncleanness.
Amen brother. Mary is only a type/figure for the church. Like the church, "that which was conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." The seed/word implanted in us, and Christ being formed in us. She is honoured as the mother of the Messiah/Christ, but no more than other faithful saints written about in the bible....because the glory always belongs to God, not to the vessels He inhabits and makes useful in His kingdom. It is always a reasonable service.
And I'm sure we can fully expect Catholicism to try and slither out from under their false doctrines when they are exposed....with gaslighting and excuses, etc. Stand on their head, dance around and twist like a pretzel...anything but change their minds, because that would mean realizing and acknowledging that their idol isn't divine after all. I'm sorry for the souls that are captives of that institution, but then again, sometimes "the people love to have it so."
Well, let's think about that a minute. How obedient is the church actually? (Which disobedience the epistles were constantly dealing with or trying to prevent.) Especially when it is known there would be a falling away.
What church?
Did I mention a church??
I said Eve was disobedient...
Mary was obedient.
The Catholic Church is closer to perfect than anything else we have.
The current problem with the Catholic church is two fold in my opinion. 1) Catholics are poorly catechized. This is a result of the perverted interpretations of Vatican II. We went through "reform" years but things are shifting. If you're interested there's a great book "Infiltration" that reveals the plan to destroy the church from within. 2) As Fulton Sheen has said, "There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church." I would bet my mortgage money that every non Catholic Christian has been told at least a thousand times that Catholics do not worship Mary but the very first thing they say is, "you worship Mary." Like you with "you people" when I hear someone say, "Catholics worship Mary" I stop listening.
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
It IS obviously true that it's a simile'. This is English 101.
Bald-faced lying now? This conversation is over. You're muted. I don't waste time conversing with those who aren't honest.
LOL! Clutch your pearls all you want. You don't have a single substantive thing to say. Your being offended doesn't prove your point. It is EVIDENT that you haven't read the Bible--either that or that you are an outright rebel, take your pick (it's better to be ignorant)--because you REJECT its plain words, "Adam was a type of Christ".
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To me, Mary is not a type or figure of anything. I do not look to Mary at all. She was blessed, sure, but we are to look to Christ. I don't expect the Catholics to be honest about this, because they have their tradition, I am just sharing it.
Yes, but I thought we were looking at "types" here. Thought you were saying Eve can't be an antitype for the church because she was disobedient....did I misunderstand you?
I know what you mean, just that the bible is so chock full of allegories and antetypes. God's word is so "perfect" in the way it shows and speaks the truth. But I agree that it doesn't mean we are to make anything of those types....it's just for our edification, instruction etc. I think Mary is a good example to Israel especially, of one who hears, believes and receives the implanted (engrafted) Word/gospel and the fruit that comes from receiving it.
Very little is written about Mary, so I don't know how she could be an example to me.
Oh, she received the Word?
So I am to receive the Word?
Was that something I needed to learn from Mary?
I mean, the whole thing is ridiculous.
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