Mary as New Eve

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GracePeace

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Years ago, I learned that the Bible teaches that only the Church could be the New Eve :

1. The typological evidence in Scripture points to the Church being the New Eve, not Mary :
i. Adam was the head of the human race, and Christ is the head of a new human race (Ro 5; 1 Co 15),
ii. Eve was Adam's own body, and the Church is Christ's body (Gen 2; Ep 5),
iii. Eve was Adam's bride, and the Church is Christ's bride (Gen 2; Ep 4).

2. No less than Paul, himself, says the Church corresponds to Eve :
2 Corinthians 11:3But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Later, I learned that Irenaeus taught contrary to this, innovating a doctrine that Mary was the New Eve, and that the Catholic Church looked to him as authoritative, and, so, they share that view.

When I've confronted Catholics about this, they've tried to wave it off, claiming it isn't necessary for the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) to be 100% correct about all things it affirms, or they say there could be two figures in mind (both the Church and Mary) when dealing with typology; but ChatGPT says that it actually does undermine Catholicism, because, even though Mary as New Eve isn't a dogma, the Marian dogmas do rest upon the foundation of "Mary is the New Eve" (eg, the doctrine of her immaculate conception, they say it was necessary for Mary to have been born sinless, because Eve had been sinless), this actually does undermine Catholicism, inasmuch as it claims it cannot err in dogma... but its dogmas rely upon falsified foundations.

I thought it might be important.
 

Webers_Home

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I have seen Jesus' church depicted as a virgin (2Cor 11:2) but I have yet to
see his church depicted as a mother. In point of fact, the birth spoken of by
John 1:12-13 and John 3:3-8 is an act of God alone rather than a joint act
by Jesus' church and God together like as when the Holy Spirit overshadowed
Mary in Luke 1:35.
_
 

GracePeace

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I have seen Jesus' church depicted as a virgin (2Cor 11:2) but I have yet to
see his church depicted as a mother. In point of fact, the birth spoken of by
John 1:12-13 and John 3:3-8 is an act of God alone rather than a joint act
by Jesus' church and God together like as when the Holy Spirit overshadowed
Mary in Luke 1:35.
_
Are you coming from a Catholic or non-Catholic perspective?
 

Webers_Home

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From the perspective of a retired welder.

I sometimes wonder from whence I got the nerve to participate on internet
forums.

I've never been to seminary. The bulk of my Bible training has come from
books, sermons, seminars, Sunday schools, and radio programs. (YouTube
didn't exist back then.)

I was an industrial welder forty years in shops and shipyards, and flunked
English my senior year in high school and had to make it up in Summer
school before joining the US Army as a paratrooper with the 101st
Airborne Division. Neither my trade, nor my academic record, nor my
Army occupation, does much to validate me as a serious Bible student.
_
 
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nedsk

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Years ago, I learned that the Bible teaches that only the Church could be the New Eve :

1. The typological evidence in Scripture points to the Church being the New Eve, not Mary :
i. Adam was the head of the human race, and Christ is the head of a new human race (Ro 5; 1 Co 15),
ii. Eve was Adam's own body, and the Church is Christ's body (Gen 2; Ep 5),
iii. Eve was Adam's bride, and the Church is Christ's bride (Gen 2; Ep 4).

2. No less than Paul, himself, says the Church corresponds to Eve :
2 Corinthians 11:3But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Later, I learned that Irenaeus taught contrary to this, innovating a doctrine that Mary was the New Eve, and that the Catholic Church looked to him as authoritative, and, so, they share that view.

When I've confronted Catholics about this, they've tried to wave it off, claiming it isn't necessary for the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) to be 100% correct about all things it affirms, or they say there could be two figures in mind (both the Church and Mary) when dealing with typology; but ChatGPT says that it actually does undermine Catholicism, because, even though Mary as New Eve isn't a dogma, the Marian dogmas do rest upon the foundation of "Mary is the New Eve" (eg, the doctrine of her immaculate conception, they say it was necessary for Mary to have been born sinless, because Eve had been sinless), this actually does undermine Catholicism, inasmuch as it claims it cannot err in dogma... but its dogmas rely upon falsified foundations.

I thought it might be important.
Do you know when Irenaeus lived?

"ChatGPT says..."? That has to be the funniest thing I've ever seen written on a Christianity forum. Hilarious!!!
 

nedsk

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2nd century AD.

I don't mind if you mock, but I'd also like a substantive response, which I notice you did not (could not?) provide.
Show me a citation from that same time period that supports anything a non-Catholic Christian currently believes.

I'm not mocking you I'm laughing at you. It's not exactly the same thing. I see no reason to substantively respond to a computer generated statement. If that is not acceptable to you then you then you are free to not reply to me. If you're being forced to reply to me send me your address and I'll send the police there.
 

GracePeace

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Show me a citation from that same time period that supports anything a non-Catholic Christian currently believes.

I'm not mocking you I'm laughing at you. It's not exactly the same thing. I see no reason to substantively respond to a computer generated statement. If that is not acceptable to you then you then you are free to not reply to me. If you're being forced to reply to me send me your address and I'll send the police there.
Nah, the discussion isn't shifting : Irenaeus erred, and your Church followed his error, then codified it as "infallible", so you believe Mary is the New Eve, when only the Church even could qualify as the New Eve. That is only one among your many errors--but, again, have a go at the actual conversation, or scram.
 

nedsk

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2nd century AD.

I don't mind if you mock, but I'd also like a substantive response, which I notice you did not (could not?) provide.
Show me a citation from that same time period that supports anything a non-Catholic Christian currently believes.

I'm not mocking you I'm laughing at you. It's not exactly the same thing. I see I
 

nedsk

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Nah, the discussion isn't shifting : Irenaeus erred, and your Church followed his error, then codified it as "infallible", so you believe Mary is the New Eve, when only the Church even could qualify as the New Eve. That is only one among your many errors--but, again, have a go at the actual conversation, or scram.
You need to prove he erred. I am not the least but interested in your opinion. If you want to claim he erred you will need to have some other authority other than, "because I said so". I've been through this rodeo with you people too many times to be very polite. You'll have to get off your high horse and actually work. Protestant temerity is boring.
 

GracePeace

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You need to prove he erred. I am not the least but interested in your opinion. If you want to claim he erred you will need to have some other authority other than, "because I said so". I've been through this rodeo with you people too many times to be very polite. You'll have to get off your high horse and actually work. Protestant temerity is boring.
I already proved it; you're welcome to address my proof.
 

GracePeace

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What post number?
The first post shares it. You didn't bother reading it before responding to it, apparently. That is the norm with people around here (Proverbs 18:13).
Still waiting for you to show evidence of protestant heresies before the looney little monk.
If you crave that discussion, go ahead and post a thread about it, but that is not the topic of this thread, and it won't be made to be the topic.