WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

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FaithWillDo

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You quote the scriptures, but you do not understand what you are quoting, and in your ignorance you judge me.

You quoted:

But you do not understand. How is the Fall rain also the Spring rain? How is David's Lord also his Son? How did Jesus save--both Israel and the Church, who came in their own times--in one day? You have not answered correctly, but you yourself who accuse me of conjecture and going beyond the scriptures, only have your own confused and cloudy ideas. You have not even considered that my "teacher" is God, and what I have told you is not only written, was also sealed--but given to me as foretold.

You are an offense.
You quote the scriptures, but you do not understand what you are quoting, and in your ignorance you judge me.

You quoted:

But you do not understand. How is the Fall rain also the Spring rain? How is David's Lord also his Son? How did Jesus save--both Israel and the Church, who came in their own times--in one day? You have not answered correctly, but you yourself who accuse me of conjecture and going beyond the scriptures, only have your own confused and cloudy ideas. You have not even considered that my "teacher" is God, and what I have told you is not only written, was also sealed--but given to me as foretold.

You are an offense.
Dear ScottA,
Yes, I judge you because we are commanded to judge those within the church who contradict the teachings of Christ. For those who are outside the church, we are not to judge them at this time.

1Cor 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1Cor 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1Cor 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.


You asked:
But you do not understand. How is the Fall rain also the Spring rain?

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

Joel 2:23 does not say that the Latter Rain is the same as the Early Rain. It only says that the time between them is shortened so that they will both fall in the same month. This shortening of time applies only to the salvation of the Nation of Israel in the final age as they are being judged in the Lake of Fire by the Elect.

Is Joel 2:23 the only scripture that you have to support your understanding? You are reading into that verse things that are not there.

You said:
You have not even considered that my "teacher" is God, and what I have told you is not only written, was also sealed--but given to me as foretold.

So I should just take your word for it that what you teach comes from God? Again, where is your scripture to support what you are saying?
You have not provided even one verse that supports your understanding and you will not address all the many, many verses that I have provided that contradict your teaching. Why should anyone believe what you are saying when you are going beyond what is written?

Paul would say to you "what saith the scripture?" Where is your scripture?

Consider this scripture:


Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Paul says that the Bereans were more noble because they searched the scriptures daily to make sure that what he told them was true. You are not doing as the Bereans did.

Also, scripture says that a person will only have the ability to learn the New Covenant teachings of Christ AFTER they have been given the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth/Latter Rain).

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) that heals a believer's spiritual blindness (Mark 8:15-25). After a believer has received the Spirit of Truth within themselves, it will guide them in their understanding. If you look for truth outside of scripture, you will not find it. God's Word is our source of truth and the Spirit of Truth is what guides us to find it.

When Christ made His statement in John 16:13 to the disciples, they had only been given the Early Rain at that time. With the Early Rain, they received a measure of faith and could accept Jesus as their Lord. How do I know this? Because of what this verse says:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

If the disciples did not already have the Early Rain of the Spirit, they could not have called Jesus "Lord". And from what Christ said in John 16:13, we can know that they did not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet. The Latter Rain had not yet fallen on them.

When the disciples were converted on the Day of Pentecost, they had BOTH the Early and Latter Rains just as James said they needed.

All believers (both Jews and Gentiles) start off following Christ because they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is this small measure of the Spirit that gives a person the ability & desire to call Jesus "Lord". Without that small measure of the Spirit, a person will remain an unbeliever. For those who are given the Early Rain, they must do as the disciples did and wait for Christ's return to give them the Latter Rain. Only then will a person be converted and saved.

Since you are not receptive to what scripture is teaching on the Early and Latter Rain concept, it is time to end our discussion.

Joe
 

Davy

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This is John 3:5 NASB
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless
* one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


Some believe water to be:
The word of God
Baptismal water
Natural birth

There might be other understandings that are not listed.

I tend to go with either natural birth or baptismal water.
Either can seem correct to me.

Please state what you believe and why.
Appreciated...

Both, natural birth, and spiritual birth.

Nicodemus understood Jesus to be speaking of being born again a second time in woman's womb, which is wrong.

Jesus then revealed that one must born of BOTH, water (natural birth) and of The Spirit. Christ's Salvation only applies to those born in the flesh, and not to the angels. Thus birth through the water of woman's womb is a requirement.

Then... Jesus explains that which is born of the flesh is flesh, but that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. That means our 'spirit' inside our flesh body must be born of The Holy Spirit.

Water baptism is to represent... being born from above by The Spirit. The KJV phrase "born again" actually means 'born from above' in the Greek.
 

ScottA

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So I should just take your word for it that what you teach comes from God? Again, where is your scripture to support what you are saying?
You have not provided even one verse that supports your understanding and you will not address all the many, many verses that I have provided that contradict your teaching. Why should anyone believe what you are saying when you are going beyond what is written?
You go on and on and claim that the scriptures that I have given to you contradict those you give. However, there is no contradiction...and you have failed in your attempt to search the scriptures.

Nor do you know me, or you would know that what I have told you was foretold, and of me. But why should I give testimony of myself, when you do not even recognize what I have told you that is indeed written? The answer is, I should not, and will not.

As I said, believe it or not. That is on you. So shall it be written.
 

David in NJ

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Since the Lamb is symbolic of Abraham's Seed, it all seems to line up pretty well. Jesus was born of the 'waters' of the Father.
Your statement is not derived from "exegesis"

How was Jesus born?
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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This is John 3:5 NASB
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless
* one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.

The water represents the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,


John 15:3
You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

John 17:17
Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth.

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

1 Peter 1:22-23
Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the truth so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart. / For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.

2 Corinthians 7:1
Therefore, beloved, since we have these promises, let us cleanse ourselves from everything that defiles body and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 John 5:6
This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ—not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood,

Colossians 1:22
But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—

Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.

Ezekiel 36:25-27
I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. / I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. / And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.

Psalm 51:7
Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.

Isaiah 1:16-18
Wash and cleanse yourselves. Remove your evil deeds from My sight. Stop doing evil! / Learn to do right; seek justice and correct the oppressor. Defend the fatherless and plead the case of the widow.” / “Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will become like wool.
 

David in NJ

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I had child birth on the list of options for the meaning of John 3:5
Two distinct "births" are Spoken of by the LORD in John 3:1-10

a.) water birth from the mother's womb

b.) Spirit Birth from Spirit of GOD

JESUS stated CLEAR Fact #1 = no one can be Born-Again until they are first born into this age from a mother's water/womb

JESUS stated CLEAR fact #2 = the Spirit goes wherever it wishes and so is one who is Born of the Spirit

@Exegesis
 
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GodsGrace

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Two distinct "births" are Spoken of by the LORD in John 3:1-10

a.) water birth from the mother's womb

b.) Spirit Birth from Spirit of GOD

JESUS stated CLEAR Fact #1 = no one can be Born-Again until they are first born into this age from a mother's water/womb

JESUS stated CLEAR fact #2 = the Spirit goes wherever it wishes and so is one who is Born of the Spirit

@Exegesis
Ok.
But what makes you believe your number one is correct?

Where does it state what you posted above?
Here:

"JESUS stated CLEAR Fact #1 = no one can be Born-Again until they are first born into this age from a mother's water/womb"
 

David in NJ

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Ok.
But what makes you believe your number one is correct?

Where does it state what you posted above?
Here:

"JESUS stated CLEAR Fact #1 = no one can be Born-Again until they are first born into this age from a mother's water/womb"
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

JESUS Says : "that which is flesh is flesh" = our first birth AND existence = a person must first exist via "born of the flesh"

The term "Born-Again" clearly denotes a 'second' birth and JESUS makes it CLEAR this comes after the first birth of flesh
 
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GodsGrace

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I think you are on to something by linking the water to the word of God.

I feel like we need to understand the word of God as being at least two different things. Yes, there are letters and words, but would you agree that the word of God is also alive? That means that the spirit is there as well. It's as if the two are combined into one.

Check out this verse:



The spirit makes the word 'live'. It is life. If we say that Jesus is the word and the life, then we have a Trinity.



Just brainstorming here. Interesting thread!
I listed the word of God in my OP as one of the choices.
But as I read your post, it seems to me that you're saying that the water is the Holy Spirit and not the word of God.
Although I do agree with what you've said about the word.
It IS alive.
Some believe the word WATER to be the literal word of God,,,IOW, the entire NT.
 

GodsGrace

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Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

JESUS Says : "that which is flesh is flesh" = our first birth AND existence = a person must first exist via "born of the flesh"

The term "Born-Again" clearly denotes a 'second' birth and JESUS makes it CLEAR this comes after the first birth of flesh
Yes.
This has always made sense to me...
but, as you can see, we don't all agree.
Some believe water is the Holy Spirit...
some believe water is the water of baptism.
Thanks for your reply!
 
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David in NJ

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Yes.
This has always made sense to me...
but, as you can see, we don't all agree.
Some believe water is the Holy Spirit...
some believe water is the water of baptism.
Thanks for your reply!
Let's think together on Scripture

If water baptism MUST precede Spirit Birth, then Salvation is of works and not of faith, which is contrary to the Gospel/Truth.
Then 'water' is thicker then the Blood of Christ!!! His Blood alone washes away our sins.

PROOF that JESUS was not speaking of "water baptism" = Acts chapter 10 , please read
 

GodsGrace

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Let's think together on Scripture

If water baptism MUST precede Spirit Birth, then Salvation is of works and not of faith, which is contrary to the Gospel/Truth.
Then 'water' is thicker then the Blood of Christ!!! His Blood alone washes away our sins.

PROOF that JESUS was not speaking of "water baptism" = Acts chapter 10 , please read
This gets into a different topic and I'm not going there.
But am considering....
 

Exegesis

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I listed the word of God in my OP as one of the choices.
But as I read your post, it seems to me that you're saying that the water is the Holy Spirit and not the word of God.
Although I do agree with what you've said about the word.
It IS alive.
Some believe the word WATER to be the literal word of God,,,IOW, the entire NT.

I see it like this...

Water = Word of God
Living = Holy Spirit

Now combine the two:

Living Water = Word of God that is alive via the Holy Spirit. It is two in one.

That is the key to the whole thing. The Word of God always has the Spirit attached to it.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

In other words, Water, i.e., the Word of God, contains the Spirit by default. Notice said Waters comes out the Father, not the Mother. It comes from His belly. Born again of the Father's Seed. Get it?

The Word is alive:

Hebrews 4:12 (New International Version) For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Again, it is two in one. If the Word of God, the Waters, is dead, then we have a problem.

If we keep going with this theme, then we see that John 1:1 is describing the Trinity:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Word was with God = 1st person of the Trinity
Word was God = 2nd person of the Trinity

But wait! Where is the 3rd person of the Trinity? It is there by default because every Christian knows that the Word is alive via the Holy Ghost. hlo

The Trinity was there all along.

Remember, the Seed is the Word:

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Who's Seed are we born from?

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We must be born again of the Word, i.e., the Waters and the Spirit combined.

We must be born again of Abraham's Seed (Seed of the Father):

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Jesus is Abraham's Seed. Masculine.

We must be born of God:

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now you see that we must be born again of the masculine Water and Spirit.

How did Jesus get here?

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Jesus came by Water and Blood. What does this mean?

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Word, i.e., the Waters, was made flesh.

The Word is the Voice which sounds like Many Waters:

Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

As we can see, amniotic fluid is not the Voice and Word of God. The exegesis is clear.
 

David in NJ

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I see it like this...

Water = Word of God
Living = Holy Spirit

Now combine the two:

Living Water = Word of God that is alive via the Holy Spirit. It is two in one.

That is the key to the whole thing. The Word of God always has the Spirit attached to it.



In other words, Water, i.e., the Word of God, contains the Spirit by default. Notice said Waters comes out the Father, not the Mother. It comes from His belly. Born again of the Father's Seed. Get it?

The Word is alive:



Again, it is two in one. If the Word of God, the Waters, is dead, then we have a problem.

If we keep going with this theme, then we see that John 1:1 is describing the Trinity:



Word was with God = 1st person of the Trinity
Word was God = 2nd person of the Trinity

But wait! Where is the 3rd person of the Trinity? It is there by default because every Christian knows that the Word is alive via the Holy Ghost. hlo

The Trinity was there all along.

Remember, the Seed is the Word:



Who's Seed are we born from?



We must be born again of the Word, i.e., the Waters and the Spirit combined.

We must be born again of Abraham's Seed (Seed of the Father):



Jesus is Abraham's Seed. Masculine.

We must be born of God:



Now you see that we must be born again of the masculine Water and Spirit.

How did Jesus get here?



Jesus came by Water and Blood. What does this mean?



The Word, i.e., the Waters, was made flesh.

The Word is the Voice which sounds like Many Waters:





As we can see, amniotic fluid is not the Voice and Word of God. The exegesis is clear.
proper exegesis is lacking in your study of scripture and you are applying eisegesis to it

Jesus came by water and blood from Mary's womb = Hebrews 10:5 and Luke 1:26-38

John 1:14 - The Word became flesh = Mary's womb

1 John 5:6 - This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood.
And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.


Word was with God = 1st person of the Trinity
Word was God = 2nd person of the Trinity
Nope = nowhere in scripture but you did add your eisegesis to John 1:1

FATHER = 1st Person of the Trinity
WORD/SON
HOLY SPIRIT
 

David in NJ

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I see it like this...

Water = Word of God
Living = Holy Spirit

Now combine the two:

Living Water = Word of God that is alive via the Holy Spirit. It is two in one.

That is the key to the whole thing. The Word of God always has the Spirit attached to it.



In other words, Water, i.e., the Word of God, contains the Spirit by default. Notice said Waters comes out the Father, not the Mother. It comes from His belly. Born again of the Father's Seed. Get it?

The Word is alive:



Again, it is two in one. If the Word of God, the Waters, is dead, then we have a problem.

If we keep going with this theme, then we see that John 1:1 is describing the Trinity:



Word was with God = 1st person of the Trinity
Word was God = 2nd person of the Trinity

But wait! Where is the 3rd person of the Trinity? It is there by default because every Christian knows that the Word is alive via the Holy Ghost. hlo

The Trinity was there all along.

Remember, the Seed is the Word:



Who's Seed are we born from?



We must be born again of the Word, i.e., the Waters and the Spirit combined.

We must be born again of Abraham's Seed (Seed of the Father):



Jesus is Abraham's Seed. Masculine.

We must be born of God:



Now you see that we must be born again of the masculine Water and Spirit.

How did Jesus get here?



Jesus came by Water and Blood. What does this mean?



The Word, i.e., the Waters, was made flesh.

The Word is the Voice which sounds like Many Waters:





As we can see, amniotic fluid is not the Voice and Word of God. The exegesis is clear.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Word is spoken 3x here in one sentence confirming the Elohim from Genesis chapter 1

the Apostle John knew what he was writing as the Holy Spirit opened the Scriptures to him.