Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?

[DJT_47]

The imparting of miraculously manifested gifts of the Spirit required the laying on of the apostle's hands. Only 2 instances in scripture that the Spirit fell on people without laying on of the apostle's hands and that was Acts 2 and Acts 10, and in both cases the church was established and the Spirit fell as a sign from God that it was his will. Acts 8:17 also says the apostles prayed specifically that the baptized believers receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (not the indwelling which is automatic at the time of baptism into Christ). So, you can conclude that just because someone may have been touched by an apostle, like when being immersed in water by them during baptism, that the mear fact that they were touched wasn't sufficient to impart a gift of the Spirit. Apparently then, the Spirit didn't automatically fall on anyone and everyone. Note the words of Paul to the Roman brethren in Rom 1:11. It's clear that it required more; specific prayer for it, and the laying on of an apostle's hands.

11For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

 

[St. SteVen]

The imparting of miraculously manifested gifts of the Spirit required the laying on of the apostle's hands. Only 2 instances in scripture that the Spirit fell on people without laying on of the apostle's hands and that was Acts 2 and Acts 10, and in both cases the church was established and the Spirit fell as a sign from God that it was his will. Acts 8:17 also says the apostles prayed specifically that the baptized believers receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (not the indwelling which is automatic at the time of baptism into Christ). So, you can conclude that just because someone may have been touched by an apostle, like when being immersed in water by them during baptism, that the mear fact that they were touched wasn't sufficient to impart a gift of the Spirit. Apparently then, the Spirit didn't automatically fall on anyone and everyone. Note the words of Paul to the Roman brethren in Rom 1:11. It's clear that it required more; specific prayer for it, and the laying on of an apostle's hands.

11For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

Thanks for your post.
However, the Holy Spirit cannot be contained in a doctrinal box.
You mentioned Acts 2 and 10 as examples.
Another example would be Ananias praying for Saul. He was not an Apostle. (capital A)
See Acts chapter 9.

Jesus said regarding the Holy Spirit...

John 3:8 NIV
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound,
but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

[

 

[DJT_47]

Thanks for your post.
However, the Holy Spirit cannot be contained in a doctrinal box.
You mentioned Acts 2 and 10 as examples.
Another example would be Ananias praying for Saul. He was not an Apostle. (capital L)
See Acts chapter 9.

Jesus said regarding the Holy Spirit...

John 3:8 NIV
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound,
but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

[

Your understanding of Ananias is a bit flawed. You must read carefully the words of the Ananias event on Acts 17, AND, Paul's recount of the event in Acts 22 There's a difference in them. See what was said in Paul's recount. I suggest you read the entirety of both scriptures.

Acts 9:17 17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 22:13 13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

 

[St. SteVen]

Your understanding of Ananias is a bit flawed. You must read carefully the words of the Ananias event on Acts 17, AND, Paul's recount of the event in Acts 22 There's a difference in them. See what was said in Paul's recount. I suggest you read the entirety of both scriptures.

​ Acts 9:17 17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 22:13 13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

What's your point?
You were claiming that only an Apostle could lay hands on someone to receive Holy Spirit Baptism.
Ananias was not an Apostle and you gave two other examples. The outpouring at Pentecost and the outpouring at the house of Cornelius.

[

 

[David in NJ]

This issue came up recently in the topic: One Baptism. - What is it?

If the "one baptism" is spiritual baptism,
then why didn't the water baptized believers
in Samaria receive it?

Just to be clear, I do not question whether the believers in Samaria had received
the "indwelling" Spirit when they believed. They were missing something else.

Acts 8:14-17 NIV
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria.
15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here are the facts:
1) Those in Samaria were believers (had accepted the word of God)
2) They had received baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. (water baptism)
3) But the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them. (had not yet "come on" any of them?)
4) Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (prayed for them)

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?
They were water baptized believers in the Lord Jesus.

- There was evidence that they were believers. (as stated in the text)
- There was evidence that they had been water baptized. (as stated in the text)
- There was, however, no evidence that they had received the Holy Spirit. (as stated in the text)

What evidence were the Apostles looking for?
"Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." - Acts 8:17 NIV
("When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit," - vs 15)
This text doesn't tell us. We'll have to look elsewhere.

Let me restate...
I do not question whether the believers in Samaria had received the "indwelling" Spirit when they believed.
They were missing something else. That something else is the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. (the Spirit "on" them)

Continued in Post #2

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?
They were water baptized believers in the Lord Jesus.

God established a precedent

I do not question whether the believers in Samaria had received the "indwelling" Spirit when they believed.
They were missing something else. That something else is the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. (the Spirit "on" them)

CORRECT
God established His precedent

 

[DJT_47]

What's your point?
You were claiming that only an Apostle could lay hands on someone to receive Holy Spirit Baptism.
Ananias was not an Apostle and you gave two other examples. The outpouring at Pentecost and the outpouring at the house of Cornelius.

[

You obviously didn't read it carefully. Read what Ananias said versus what Paul said. Bottom line, Ananias put his hands on Paul so that he could receive his vision only, and not to receive a miraculous gift of the Spirit. He was then baptized at which point he did receive the gift of the Holy Ghost consistent with acts 2:38. Read Paul's recount of the incident which confirms that in Acts 22. Paul says there that Ananias said to "receive thy sight". Nothing was said in Paul's recount about Ananias laying on of his hands was to impart the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit. Paul was baptized at which point he did receive the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[St. SteVen]

CORRECT
God established His precedent

What is the precedent then?
I don't think we can put the Holy Spirit in a doctrinal box.

[

 

[rebuilder 454]

You obviously didn't read it carefully. Read what Ananias said versus what Paul said. Bottom line, Ananias put his hands on Paul so that he could receive his vision only, and not to receive a miraculous gift of the Spirit. He was then baptized at which point he did receive the gift of the Holy Ghost consistent with acts 2:38. Read Paul's recount of the incident which confirms that in Acts 22. Paul says there that Ananias said to "receive thy sight". Nothing was said in Paul's recount about Ananias laying on of his hands was to impart the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit. Paul was baptized at which point he did receive the Holy Spirit of God.

Acts 9
"And Ananias went his way,
and entered into the house; and
putting his hands on him said,
Brother Saul, the Lord, [even]
Jesus, that appeared unto thee
in the way as thou camest, hath
sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled
with the Holy Ghost."

In order to make a water baptism claim to that, you need a verse that before water baptism, a believer was told "now you will recieve the "Holy Ghost", and that believer was water baptized instead of what is actually implied in Acts 9
( that at the laying on of hands by annanias, Paul did recieve the Holy Ghost baptism and scales fell off simultaneously)

 

[DJT_47]

Acts 9
"And Ananias went his way,
and entered into the house; and
putting his hands on him said,
Brother Saul, the Lord, [even]
Jesus, that appeared unto thee
in the way as thou camest, hath
sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled
with the Holy Ghost."

In order to make a water baptism claim to that, you need a verse that before water baptism, a believer was told "now you will recieve the "Holy Ghost", and that believer was water baptized instead of what is actually implied in Acts 9
( that at the laying on of hands by annanias, Paul did recieve the Holy Ghost baptism and scales fell off simultaneously)

No. Absolutely no. Read the next verse in Acts 9

"18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized."

This is where he received the gift of the Holy Ghost as we do today in accordance with Acts 2:38

And you're ignoring Paul's recount of the event in Acts 22 which clarifies without a doubt what Ananias job was and what occurred when his hands were laid upon Paul.

Acts 22

"12And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

 

[rebuilder 454]

No. Absolutely no. Read the next verse in Acts 9

"18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized."

This is where he received the gift of the Holy Ghost as we do today in accordance with Acts 2:38

And you're ignoring Paul's recount of the event in Acts 22 which clarifies without a doubt what Ananias job was and what occurred when his hands were laid upon Paul.

Acts 22

"12And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

So your conclusion, is that , it was wrong what the word of God states, that Paul recieved the baptism in the Holy Spirit via the laying on of Hands?
Because later Paul did not include that in His testimony?
So in the Gospels when an account of Jesus is left out, we need to go to our Bibles and cross out what one gospel included but the others left out?????

Your method is "if left out later we must explain away or remove" ????

 

[St. SteVen]

So your conclusion, is that , it was wrong what the word of God states, that Paul recieved the baptism in the Holy Spirit via the laying on of Hands?

I agree with you.
There is no need to discount what was written in Acts chapter nine.
Jesus sent Ananias to...

Acts 9:17-19 NIV
Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said,
“Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—
has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,
19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength. ...

[

 

[DJT_47]

So your conclusion, is that , it was wrong what the word of God states, that Paul recieved the baptism in the Holy Spirit via the laying on of Hands?
Because later Paul did not include that in His testimony?
So in the Gospels when an account of Jesus is left out, we need to go to our Bibles and cross out what one gospel included but the others left out?????

Your method is "if left out later we must explain away or remove" ????

He received the Holy Ghost upon his baptism which is exactly what Annanias did after his sight was restored. Acts 2:38 tells you that plainly. When you're baptized you receive the indwelling of Holy Ghost. Acts 22 once again made it clear that Paul received his sight by Annanias laying on of his hands. Annanias had no power as did the apostles to enable the manifestation of the spirit. Annanias was not an Apostle. Acts 9 and Acts 22 are in sync with one another. And the word of God wasn't wrong, you're just misunderstanding it. Read the accountof Simon the sorcerer. There it states that he wanted to purchase the power that he saw the APOSTLES had, that by the laying on of their hands the Holy Ghost was made manifest.

Acts 8

17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

 

[David in NJ]

No. Absolutely no. Read the next verse in Acts 9

"18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized."

This is where he received the gift of the Holy Ghost as we do today in accordance with Acts 2:38

And you're ignoring Paul's recount of the event in Acts 22 which clarifies without a doubt what Ananias job was and what occurred when his hands were laid upon Paul.

Acts 22

"12And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Please be more specific as to that which you are deriving from Acts 22 - thank you

 

[David in NJ]

He received the Holy Ghost upon his baptism which is exactly what Annanias did after his sight was restored. Acts 2:38 tells you that plainly. When you're baptized you receive the indwelling of Holy Ghost. Acts 22 once again made it clear that Paul received his sight by Annanias laying on of his hands. Annanias had no power as did the apostles to enable the manifestation of the spirit. Annanias was not an Apostle. Acts 9 and Acts 22 are in sync with one another. And the word of God wasn't wrong, you're just misunderstanding it. Read the accountof Simon the sorcerer. There it states that he wanted to purchase the power that he saw the APOSTLES had, that by the laying on of their hands the Holy Ghost was made manifest.

Acts 8

​

​

​ 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Was Annanais filled with the Holy Spirit

 

[St. SteVen]

He received the Holy Ghost upon his baptism which is exactly what Annanias did after his sight was restored. Acts 2:38 tells you that plainly. When you're baptized you receive the indwelling of Holy Ghost. Acts 22 once again made it clear that Paul received his sight by Annanias laying on of his hands. Annanias had no power as did the apostles to enable the manifestation of the spirit. Annanias was not an Apostle. Acts 9 and Acts 22 are in sync with one another. And the word of God wasn't wrong, you're just misunderstanding it. Read the accountof Simon the sorcerer. There it states that he wanted to purchase the power that he saw the APOSTLES had, that by the laying on of their hands the Holy Ghost was made manifest.

Acts 8

​

​

​ 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

You need to get your story straight.
Is the Holy Spirit received by the laying on of hands from an Apostle or due to water baptism?
Simon was rebuked because he thought the ability of the giving of the Spirit could be bought with money.

Acts 8:18-24 NIV
When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money
19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!
21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.
22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”
24 Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”


[

 

[David in NJ]

Thanks for your post.
However, the Holy Spirit cannot be contained in a doctrinal box.
You mentioned Acts 2 and 10 as examples.
Another example would be Ananias praying for Saul. He was not an Apostle. (capital L)
See Acts chapter 9.

Jesus said regarding the Holy Spirit...

John 3:8 NIV
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound,
but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

[

YES & AGREE

Now, as i said earlier, what is the precedent that God set in Acts

 

[DJT_47]

So your conclusion, is that , it was wrong what the word of God states, that Paul recieved the baptism in the Holy Spirit via the laying on of Hands?
Because later Paul did not include that in His testimony?
So in the Gospels when an account of Jesus is left out, we need to go to our Bibles and cross out what one gospel included but the others left out?????

Your method is "if left out later we must explain away or remove" ????

He received the Holy Ghost upon his baptism which is exactly what annanias did after his sight was restored. Acts 2:38 tells you that plainly. When you're baptized you receive the indwelling of Holy Ghost. Acts 22 once again made it clear that Paul received his sight by annanias laying on of his hands. Annanias had no power as did the apostles to enable the manifestation of the spirit. Annanias was not an Apostle. Acts 9 and Acts 22 are in sync with one another. And the d of God wasn't wrong, you're just misunderstanding it. Read the accountof Simon the sorcerer. There it states that he wanted to purchase the power that he saw the apostles had, that by the laying on of their hands tge Holy Ghost was made manifest.

Acts 8

​

​

​ 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Please be more specific as to that which you are deriving from Acts 22 - thank you

Read verse 13 in Acts 22. What does it say as Paul recalls it? Only that Annanias was to restore his sight.

13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

 

[rebuilder 454]

He received the Holy Ghost upon his baptism which is exactly what Annanias did after his sight was restored. Acts 2:38 tells you that plainly. When you're baptized you receive the indwelling of Holy Ghost. Acts 22 once again made it clear that Paul received his sight by Annanias laying on of his hands. Annanias had no power as did the apostles to enable the manifestation of the spirit. Annanias was not an Apostle. Acts 9 and Acts 22 are in sync with one another. And the word of God wasn't wrong, you're just misunderstanding it. Read the accountof Simon the sorcerer. There it states that he wanted to purchase the power that he saw the APOSTLES had, that by the laying on of their hands the Holy Ghost was made manifest.

Acts 8

17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

There IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING there to prevent what is written. ....that Paul recieved BOTH the Holy Spirit and scales removed via the laying in of Hands and was subsequently water baptized a few minutes/ hours later

YOU need a certain narrative huh?

Let me guess....you are cessationist, correct?.

 

[David in NJ]

He received the Holy Ghost upon his baptism which is exactly what annanias did after his sight was restored. Acts 2:38 tells you that plainly. When you're baptized you receive the indwelling of Holy Ghost. Acts 22 once again made it clear that Paul received his sight by annanias laying on of his hands. Annanias had no power as did the apostles to enable the manifestation of the spirit. Annanias was not an Apostle. Acts 9 and Acts 22 are in sync with one another. And the d of God wasn't wrong, you're just misunderstanding it. Read the accountof Simon the sorcerer. There it states that he wanted to purchase the power that he saw the apostles had, that by the laying on of their hands tge Holy Ghost was made manifest.

Acts 8

​

​

​ 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Read verse 13 in Acts 22. What does it say as Paul recalls it? Only that Annanias was to restore his sight.

13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

When you're baptized you receive the indwelling of Holy Ghost.

Water baptism is not a prerequisite to be "Baptized in the Holy Spirit" but it is the concurrent Way in which God Begins with the Gospel.

Pay attention to how God overrides religious speculation in Acts chapter 10

 

[DJT_47]

There IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING there to prevent what is written. ....that Paul recieved BOTH the Holy Spirit and scales removed via the laying in of Hands and was subsequently water baptized a few minutes/ hours later

YOU need a certain narrative huh?

Let me guess....you are cessationist, correct?.

Read CLOSELY AND CAREFULLY the account in Acts 9 and Acts 22. Read it all. Below are extracts that pertain to this discussion.

Acts 9:12

12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Acts 9:17-18

17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Acts 22:12-13

12And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.